1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:03,120 Speaker 1: When you turn on the news in the morning, or 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,520 Speaker 1: watch an online conference or join a work zoom meeting, 3 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: it's become totally normal to be watching people present or 4 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: be interviewed from their home office. The other thing we've 5 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: become accustomed to watching is people's personal life spill out 6 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: from the office door and into their room mid interview. 7 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: I know that my daughter Frankie has definitely made some 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:31,639 Speaker 1: guest appearances in some of my meetings and presentations. My 9 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: guest today, fellow Melbournite, Jamilla Risby, has definitely experienced that, 10 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: having spent over two hundred and sixty days in lockdown, 11 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,240 Speaker 1: and indeed when we recorded this chat, we were both 12 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 1: still in lockdown. Jamilla is the chief creative officer of 13 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:52,480 Speaker 1: nine's Future Women, a weekly columnist for the Sydney Morning 14 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: Herald and The Age, the host of the Briefing podcast, 15 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: and a recovering workaholic. In her early twenties, Jamilla was 16 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: a political staffer for ex Prime Minister Kevin Rudd and 17 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 1: someone who used to talk to her boss in the 18 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: morning before saying. 19 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 2: Hello to her husband. 20 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: It took a brain tumor diagnosis years ago for Jamilla 21 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 1: to reassess her priorities and make more space in her 22 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: life for people, starting with her family. So how did 23 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: Jimiller change her work routines to put family and her 24 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: health front and center? And as a prolific writer, what 25 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: did Jimilla's tips for drastically improving your writing and also 26 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 1: for convincing your friends to edit your work? And what 27 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: are Jamilla's tricks for building rapport super quickly with people 28 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 1: that she interviews on her podcast for Future Women. 29 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 2: My name is doctor Amantha Imber. I'm an organizational psychologist 30 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 2: and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium. 31 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: And this is how I work, a show about how 32 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: to help you do your best work. Jimiller is someone 33 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 1: who has achieved so much in her career in a 34 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: relatively short period of time. 35 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 2: So I wanted to know is she a productivity nerd 36 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 2: like me? 37 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: Or did she just hit the go button when she 38 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: was twenty and never look back. 39 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 3: I definitely have kind of strategies and have got my 40 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 3: own kind of hacks for things that work for me 41 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 3: in terms of getting things done. But I've always been 42 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 3: very busy, and my parents, when they're kind of asked 43 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 3: to describe what I was like as a kid, They 44 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 3: always say I was super enthusiastic, like it didn't matter 45 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 3: if I was good at something or not. I just 46 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 3: wanted to be involved in everything that's interesting. 47 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: I had a boss once who said the thing that 48 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 1: he looks for in job interviews doesn't care about skills 49 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: or competencies. He looks for enthusiasm because everything else can 50 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 1: be trayed. 51 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 2: It just reminds me. 52 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: About what are some of your go to hacks and 53 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: rituals and strategies that you've picked up over the years. 54 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. 55 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:05,839 Speaker 3: For me, it depends on the kind of work I'm 56 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:08,519 Speaker 3: doing and the headspace I need to be in for 57 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 3: that work. So, for example, if I'm writing, if I'm 58 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:14,920 Speaker 3: writing a column, or if I'm working on a new book, 59 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 3: I like to be somewhere that is not home, which 60 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 3: is particularly difficult at the moment during the pandemic, but 61 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 3: I prefer to be at a library or in a 62 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 3: coffee shop is usually my go to. I like to 63 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 3: be in a space where I don't have the responsibilities 64 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 3: of home, and I also don't have the sort of 65 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 3: emotional engagement of home. I find it useful to be 66 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 3: able to disconnect from that when I'm writing. I also 67 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 3: know that I am a morning person, and so I 68 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 3: try my best to schedule the highest sort of intellectual 69 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 3: workload in the morning because I know if I need 70 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 3: to be really creative, if I'm writing a column, for example, 71 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 3: I need my best possible brain space. I don't know 72 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 3: why people clear their emails at nine am when they 73 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 3: start work like that. For me, that's a waste of 74 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 3: my best brain time on something that I can easily 75 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 3: do at six or seven pm. Kind of chilled out 76 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 3: at the end of the day. So I try to 77 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 3: work and sort of hack my time to when I'm 78 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 3: going to be most productive. 79 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting what you said about doing your best 80 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: writing work from outside of home, and I can definitely 81 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: relate to that. 82 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 2: I used to be such a cafe worker. 83 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 1: So I'm curious how you've adjusted to being in lockdown 84 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: because you're in Melbourne, and I want to say where 85 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:40,280 Speaker 1: maybe on day two hundred and twenty something of lockdown 86 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 1: over the last eighteen. 87 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 2: Months, So what have you done instead? 88 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 3: I have found being productive during lockdown challenging. I think 89 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 3: everyone's had that experience in some way or another. I've 90 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 3: got kind of extra competing demands with homeschooling my son, 91 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 3: and having my husband working from home, which isn't the 92 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 3: norm for him, so I do it hard to kind 93 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 3: of shut out what's happening around me. One of the 94 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 3: things that's been helpful more recently is that I've really 95 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 3: carved out space in the house that is just mine 96 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 3: for work. Previously, because I was the only one at 97 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 3: home working, I didn't really need to do that. You know. 98 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 3: I could be in the living room, I could be 99 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:17,239 Speaker 3: in the bedroom, I could be at the kitchen table, 100 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 3: I could be in the study, I could be wherever 101 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 3: I felt like it on that given day. Whereas I've 102 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:26,239 Speaker 3: realized I really need my own space that is always 103 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 3: my space that other things don't creep into. I've needed 104 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 3: to separate my workspace from where I go to sleep 105 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 3: because otherwise that kind of causes and creates stress for me, 106 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 3: and I need to be able to This sounds awful, 107 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,039 Speaker 3: but I need to be able to shut out my family. 108 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 3: I need to be able to close the door and 109 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:49,160 Speaker 3: say not right now, because for me, particularly if I'm 110 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 3: writing about something that's traumatic or upsetting, I can't do 111 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 3: that properly. I can't do that well. If there's the 112 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 3: chance that my son's going to come bursting in at 113 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:01,919 Speaker 3: any moment asking me to fix a transformer. 114 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:04,480 Speaker 2: Even though that is really quite urgent. 115 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: How have you gone about setting those boundaries, because I 116 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: feel like that sounds good in theory that I feel 117 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,919 Speaker 1: like six year olds are not great at respecting boundaries. 118 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, my son is pretty good at knowing 119 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 3: if I'm on air, like he knows what television means 120 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 3: and being on TV means, or if I'm recording radio. 121 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 3: But you know, there are still times when I've been 122 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 3: giving a speech to a large amount of people. There 123 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 3: was a point last year when I was giving speech 124 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 3: to the State Library in New South Wales, and Sydney 125 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:38,039 Speaker 3: was not in lockdown at the time, so there were 126 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 3: hundreds of people there. But I was alone in my 127 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,359 Speaker 3: room and I was standing up in front of the 128 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 3: computer because I speak better when i'm standing. And I'd 129 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 3: done about forty minutes of the speech and we were 130 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 3: up to the Q and A, and my son came 131 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:55,720 Speaker 3: in and it was an urgent lego problem and something 132 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 3: needed to be fixed, and I couldn't fix it quickly 133 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 3: while still looking at the camera. And he was five 134 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 3: at the time, and he just refused to leap, like 135 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 3: he flat out refused to leave, and I had to 136 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:07,799 Speaker 3: do the last ten minutes of the of the conversation 137 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 3: just holding him in one arm while he talked about 138 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 3: this lego character. I think one of the good things, 139 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 3: and I'm not one for looking for silver linings in 140 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 3: such an enormous tragedy, but one of the good things 141 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 3: that has come out of the pandemic experience, I think 142 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 3: has been not a blurring of but a greater understanding 143 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 3: that the boundaries between work life and home life are 144 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 3: false boundaries, that really you can't be your most efficient 145 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 3: working self without being the same self that looks after 146 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 3: a child or goes home to someone you love in 147 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 3: the evenings and cooks dinner, or cleans the house or 148 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 3: walks the dog, whatever it might be. That those two 149 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 3: people are inextricably linked. And if you are feeling unwell 150 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 3: or you've had tragic family news, we tend to be 151 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 3: understanding of that that that will impact your work, but 152 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 3: only for a very brief period of time. I think 153 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 3: what the pandemic's done is it's given us this little 154 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 3: zoom porthal into people's laune rooms and their lives at home, 155 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 3: and I do think we're a little bit more understanding 156 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 3: that it's not just great tragedies that impact your efficiency 157 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 3: and your effectiveness at work, that your work self and 158 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 3: your personal self are all the same self, and because 159 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 3: they're indivisible, we have to be more understanding and accepting 160 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:34,719 Speaker 3: that people who are working people are also people outside. 161 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:35,079 Speaker 2: Of that workplace. 162 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely got I had this experience a few weeks ago. 163 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: I've got a seven year old who's with me half 164 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: the time, and I've normally got help with the homeschooling. 165 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: But this particular afternoon, I was doing a podcast interview, 166 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: and Frankie decided that it was a great moment to 167 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: sneak into my study where I record the interviews from 168 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: and just hit under the desk and then was kind 169 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: of like pulling at my leg, like, oh my gosh, 170 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: I can't even talk to her because I'm in the 171 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:04,559 Speaker 1: middle of an interview and I really don't want to 172 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 1: put the guest off. And so I'll write her a 173 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:09,079 Speaker 1: note and I'll ask her a question that will take 174 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: her a long time to do a handwritten response, but 175 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,199 Speaker 1: she was really quick, and so then I then started 176 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:16,719 Speaker 1: this little series of handwritten notes. 177 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 2: That she was passing up to me trying to do 178 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,559 Speaker 2: the interview. So that was that was fun. 179 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: Now I want to talk about writing, because you like 180 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: a large part of your career has been about writing. 181 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: But for listeners of the show, they're probably tenders are 182 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 1: they're not paid writers, But everyone writes. I mean writing 183 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: is so critical. I think in you know, whatever kind 184 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: of job you do, because it's how we can communicate ideas. 185 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:47,959 Speaker 1: So I'm really curious about what are your routines around writing? 186 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I wish I had more routines than 187 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 3: I do. So a big one is, as I've already mentioned, 188 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 3: I like to write in the mornings. I like to 189 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 3: have that physical separation from my home if I can. 190 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 3: And then I suppose I put a bunch of strategies 191 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,679 Speaker 3: in place that mean I want to go back to writing. 192 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 3: So this might sound counterintuitive, but I like to stop 193 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 3: writing when I'm in a beautiful flow and feeling invigorated. 194 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 3: So when I get that sense of okay, I'm romping 195 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 3: towards the end of this chapter, this is flowing, this 196 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 3: feels good. I love this sense of all the words 197 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 3: are just coming out, I force myself to stop because 198 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 3: that way, I don't stop thinking about that feeling, and 199 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:36,719 Speaker 3: I want that feeling back, and that sense of a 200 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 3: chapter being unfinished or a thought being broken before I 201 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 3: can get it all down on the page is so 202 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 3: painful that I am itching to sit back down and 203 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:52,119 Speaker 3: write again. Whereas if I stop neatly at the conclusion 204 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 3: of a chapter or the end of an opinion piece, 205 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 3: the motivation for me to get back to writing isn't there, 206 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:02,319 Speaker 3: because I feel complete and I don't feel that that 207 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 3: sort of unfinished self. So that really helps me. And 208 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:12,559 Speaker 3: I also try and remind myself not doing it very 209 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 3: well at the moment, but I try and remind myself 210 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 3: that writing is a muscle. And you know, Mia Friedman 211 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 3: taught me this when I first started working at MoMA. Mia, 212 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 3: that writing is a muscle and you've got to work it. 213 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:26,959 Speaker 3: You've got to work it out the same way you 214 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 3: work out your physical muscles. And if you don't lift 215 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 3: weights for six months, if you don't write an opinion 216 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 3: piece for six months, or you don't write part of 217 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 3: your novel for six months, or you don't write for 218 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 3: children for six months, and then you sit down to 219 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 3: do that project, well, you're going to be out of shape. 220 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 3: But the more you write, the easier it becomes. And 221 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 3: I think that discipline is what gets me to my 222 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 3: best writing. And I don't exhibit it all the time, 223 00:11:57,640 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 3: but my best writing comes when I've been writing every 224 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:01,839 Speaker 3: day and I've been doing it for some time. 225 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 2: That makes so much sense. 226 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:08,839 Speaker 1: And when you are working on a project like a 227 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: book or a chapter or something like that, how do 228 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: you go about like pacing yourself or do you have 229 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: systems in place to get you to reach the target 230 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 1: or the deadline on time? 231 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 3: Yeah? I do. I'm a real systems person, and I 232 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 3: like mini deadlines because I'm motivated by getting a pat 233 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 3: on the head regularly, not just a big pat on 234 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 3: the head at the end. So at the moment, I'm 235 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 3: working on a book where my publisher and I have 236 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 3: set out a big Excel spreadsheet with due dates every 237 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 3: fortnight for the next twelve months for different sections of chapters, 238 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:47,439 Speaker 3: and I do my best to hit them. So every 239 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:51,199 Speaker 3: second Monday she gets four thousand words or three thousand words, 240 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 3: whatever it might be. And I hold myself to that 241 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 3: because if I think about the deadline as a whole, 242 00:12:57,600 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 3: I get quite overwhelmed with how much I have to do. 243 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:03,079 Speaker 3: But if I set the deadline in small chunks, they 244 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 3: feel more achievable. I've been working on a podcast for 245 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 3: Future Women recently, and that podcast is really complicated and 246 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 3: has literally hundreds of guests who we've spoken to and 247 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 3: so many bits and pieces. So we created this huge 248 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 3: spreadsheet and we colored the whole spreadsheet red and slowly 249 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 3: by bit, every day, another box goes green as we 250 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 3: do another interview, or we edit something, or we script something, 251 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 3: or we send that off for the next stage, or 252 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 3: it gets checked through legal or approved by a client. 253 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 3: And I get enormous satisfaction out of watching the red 254 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 3: turn orange and the orange turned green. It gives me 255 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 3: a sense of achievement. 256 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, Yeah, that sounds wonderful. I'm imagining the 257 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 1: picture in my head, and that is a lot of 258 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: people to speak to or interviews to conduct. I'm curious 259 00:13:57,679 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 1: with their volume. Do you have tricks that you use 260 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: to build rapport really quickly with the people that you're 261 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 1: having on the show. 262 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a really great question. Yes it feels really manipulative, 263 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 3: but yes I do. I not always, but I am 264 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 3: often asking people when I interview them to make themselves 265 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 3: quite vulnerable. I'm asking them to share something that's happened 266 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 3: to them that is hard, or is difficult, or is upsetting. 267 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 3: And I don't think you can ask a stranger to 268 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 3: do that and to expose themselves in that way to 269 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 3: you unless you're willing to do the same thing. So, 270 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 3: whether it makes the final letit or not. I often 271 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 3: speak about my own experiences, my own difficulties, and I 272 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 3: think that shared vulnerability creates a level of connection and 273 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 3: a level of warmth and a level of permissiveness to 274 00:14:56,080 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 3: share things you might not otherwise have shared before. Just 275 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 3: a few months ago, I was interviewing Danny Minogue for 276 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 3: the Weekend Briefing. And I've met Danny once before, but 277 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 3: you know, we certainly don't know each other well in 278 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 3: any way, and we sat down for this interview, and 279 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 3: she is someone who you know, is interviewed every day 280 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 3: of a life. So it's one of the challenges with 281 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 3: an interview like that, is, well, how do you get 282 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 3: something new and something interesting that her fans haven't heard 283 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 3: before because they can listen to her on so many 284 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 3: platforms with so many different interviewers, And that particular day. 285 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 3: We talked a lot about motherhood and the realization of 286 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 3: knowing you're pregnant and the uncertainty that comes with that 287 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 3: and the excitement at the same time, and she ended 288 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 3: up sharing an experience that she'd had, which was during 289 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 3: the UK phone hacking scandal, and because a story about 290 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 3: her pregnancy was going to be splashed all over the 291 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 3: front pages of the UK papers before she had even 292 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 3: told her family, she had to call her family in 293 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 3: Australia and wake them up and tell them she was 294 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 3: pregnant in this horrible moment, and she, you know, she 295 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 3: spoke about having that joyous moment stolen, that telling your 296 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 3: mom and your dad and your sister and your brother 297 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 3: that you're going to have a baby should be a glorious, 298 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 3: warm family memory, but for her it had to be 299 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 3: this rushed phone call where she was full of fear 300 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 3: and she just had to get off the phone to 301 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 3: get back to the lawyers. And we talked about how 302 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 3: that felt like it had been stolen from her, and 303 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 3: she spoke so beautifully and eloquently, and I didn't know 304 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 3: at the time, but she hadn't spoken about that before publicly, 305 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 3: and I think the reason she was willing to was 306 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 3: that we'd shared that vulnerability of what it feels like 307 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 3: to be a new mum and what it feels like 308 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 3: to be pregnant and unsure and scared for the first time. 309 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 3: And I'm not sure we would have gotten to that 310 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 3: story if she hadn't felt safe. 311 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 2: Now ed is she is a big part of what 312 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 2: you do. 313 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 1: And I love the book that you've just put out, 314 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: work Love Body, which he edits it with Helen McCabe. 315 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 1: And I feel like you know, and I think I 316 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:15,479 Speaker 1: don't know if like you know, people appreciate that. 317 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 2: There's like editing is so different from writing. It's such 318 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:19,880 Speaker 2: a different craft. 319 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: And I want to know, like, how did you become 320 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: a better editor? How did you improve that skill set? 321 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 3: I think you just got to keep doing it. I 322 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 3: do think the best editors are people who are writers 323 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,360 Speaker 3: as well, because I think if you don't, if you're 324 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:37,159 Speaker 3: not practicing your writing and remembering the difficulties and the 325 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 3: challenges of writing, you find it harder to edit at 326 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,719 Speaker 3: your best. For me, I am someone who's very focused 327 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 3: on the audience. I think I am good at cutting 328 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 3: away all the bullshit sorry that exists around the edge 329 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 3: of writing the fear of or what if the media 330 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 3: read it? Or what if my family read this? Or 331 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,360 Speaker 3: where what if people know that already? Or what if 332 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 3: I need to use this word to impress people. I'm 333 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 3: good at kind of pushing all of that away and 334 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 3: working with someone and their writing, so we just think 335 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 3: about who they're writing for, and we don't think about 336 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 3: all the mess around it. We just think about their 337 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 3: audience and what their audience might or might not know. 338 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:23,359 Speaker 3: We tried not to assume knowledge. We try not to 339 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:28,920 Speaker 3: approach the main point tentatively and slowly and in a 340 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 3: roundabout fashion, but just get to it. Make the point, 341 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 3: get in there, and get there quickly and effectively, and 342 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 3: make the audience understand what we understand. I do think 343 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:44,399 Speaker 3: that no matter how good an editor you are, you 344 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 3: can't edit yourself. And everyone needs an editor. And one 345 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 3: of the tragedies of online publishing the last few years 346 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 3: is that there's so little money and space for that now. 347 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 3: So often I'll write a column for online and I 348 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 3: just get an email back saying this is great, and 349 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,400 Speaker 3: then it's online ten minutes later. And that might feel 350 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 3: good the first couple of times, but after a while 351 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 3: you realize that it would be so much better if 352 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 3: if someone had the time to spend with you to 353 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 3: make it better. 354 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 2: Gosh, I couldn't agree more. 355 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: Like I do a bit of writing, and one of 356 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: the places I'm writing for quite regularly at the moment 357 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,360 Speaker 1: is Harvard Business Review, And unlike all the other places 358 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:25,360 Speaker 1: I write for, there'll be around three to four rounds 359 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: of edits, and it is like it's so wonderful. 360 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 2: I mean, it's like it's sometimes slightly soul crushing. 361 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: Because you just go, oh, it wasn't that bad, but 362 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:38,680 Speaker 1: you know, just sort of where it gets to after 363 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 1: those three or four rounds of editing, it makes such 364 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: a big difference. 365 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 2: So you say that we. 366 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:46,919 Speaker 1: Can't edit our own work, Like, why why can't we? 367 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: What do we do if we've written something, you know, 368 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 1: whether that be an important report for work or speech or. 369 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 2: Something like that. You know, is there anything that we can. 370 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: Do to improve what we've done? 371 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 3: I mean, you can always edit your own work to 372 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 3: an extent. I think if you're a writer who doesn't, 373 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,439 Speaker 3: that's a problem. But the best editors are people who 374 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 3: are external because they can see things that you can't see. 375 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 3: We've all got our own blinkers, and there are things 376 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,400 Speaker 3: we miss when we're writing just for ourselves. I don't 377 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 3: think the editor that you see has to be someone 378 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 3: who's trained or who's a professional. I think it can 379 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 3: be someone who cares and who's invested. I always get 380 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 3: a whole bunch of people to read my books. I 381 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 3: get my formal editors to read them, whether it's a 382 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:32,959 Speaker 3: Future Women book with Hachet or one of my own 383 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 3: books with Penguin or Puffin. I always have my editors 384 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 3: read them, of course, but I try to have friends, 385 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 3: I have family read sections of them. I send things 386 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:46,200 Speaker 3: that are relevant to friends with legal backgrounds, friends who 387 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:50,439 Speaker 3: have gone through a similar emotional experience. I draw on 388 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:54,159 Speaker 3: their own interests and the things that have happened to 389 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 3: them in their lives that mean that they can bring 390 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 3: a perspective. My sister, who is a children's performer, is 391 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 3: an extraordinary editor. She often sort of takes me out 392 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:07,159 Speaker 3: of the sort of writery, you know, the sort of 393 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 3: esoteric stuff that we can get caught up with, and goes, sorry, 394 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 3: what are you talking about? What does that work mean? 395 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 3: Why are you saying that? And she's so good at that, 396 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 3: she's such a clear communicator because she's used to communicating 397 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 3: with little children. So I don't think an editor has 398 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:23,479 Speaker 3: to be a professional editor. I think there are so 399 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 3: many people in your life you can draw on, and 400 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:27,880 Speaker 3: there are writers groups and writers' rooms you can join 401 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 3: where you can get strangers who are interested in writing 402 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 3: and who are good writers to comment on your work, 403 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 3: and I think all of that commentary is what helps 404 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 3: make it the best it can be. 405 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: We will be back with Jamilla very soon talking about 406 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:49,199 Speaker 1: how being diagnosed with a brain tumor completely changed the 407 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:50,919 Speaker 1: way she approached her work. 408 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:52,880 Speaker 2: And now, if you're. 409 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,159 Speaker 1: Looking for more tips to improve the way that you work, 410 00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: I write a short fortnightly newsletter that contains pretty cool 411 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 1: things that I've discovered that helped me work better, which 412 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:07,360 Speaker 1: range from interesting research findings through to gadgets and software 413 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: that I'm loving. So if you would like to receive that, 414 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,440 Speaker 1: you can sign up for that at Howiwork dot cod 415 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 1: That's how I Work dot c O. Are there certain 416 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 1: questions that you ask people when you're getting them to 417 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,159 Speaker 1: edit your work and they're not an editor per se, Like, 418 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 1: are there specific things that you're asking your editors in 419 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:29,880 Speaker 1: inverted commas to do? 420 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, so with future Women's new book, which is called Work, 421 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 3: Love Body, and editing that one, but also contributing my 422 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 3: own chapter for it. My first opening chapter is about 423 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 3: the experience of Melbourne's second wave at the end of 424 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 3: twenty twenty, looking at women's experience of the pandemic. And 425 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 3: I'm looking at that experience almost like if you can 426 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 3: imagine holding up a little crystal that catches the light 427 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 3: that looks different from every angle. You hold it up 428 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,479 Speaker 3: and you walk around it, and you're in exact from 429 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 3: the top and from the bottom, and from the sides 430 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 3: and diagonally, and then you do it again in case 431 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 3: the sun's changed. That's what I was trying to do 432 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,360 Speaker 3: with my writing. I was trying to explore women's experiences 433 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 3: of the pandemic from every angle and every facade, So 434 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 3: considering what it was like for women who were nurses, 435 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 3: who were nursing patients, but also at the same time 436 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 3: considering the experience of that patient, and then what was 437 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,640 Speaker 3: the experience of that patient's sister, What was the experience 438 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,360 Speaker 3: of that patient's mother who lived on the other side 439 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 3: of the country, What was the experience of the mother 440 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 3: who perhaps lost work during that pandemic, or the mother 441 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,439 Speaker 3: who gave up work to stay at home with her 442 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 3: kids and is missing it, or the woman who was 443 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 3: doing IVF who had to stop her search for motherhood 444 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 3: because it wasn't an option. So that was the kind 445 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 3: of writing I was doing. And for me, I always 446 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 3: try and make my writing inclusive, So I'll often ask 447 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 3: people who've had different experiences, is where I've touched on 448 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 3: your experienceerience? Does it feel authentic? If I haven't touched 449 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 3: on your experience, where are the gaps that you see? 450 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 3: Because all of us write read with our own prism 451 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 3: of knowledge, and so we see gaps according to what 452 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 3: we've lived, not according to what the writer has lived. 453 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,399 Speaker 3: I will often ask people where they stood up for 454 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 3: the first time to get a drink of water or 455 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 3: to do something else, like where did I lose them? 456 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:29,959 Speaker 3: I often ask them to underline passages that felt strongest, 457 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 3: the lines that stayed with them, Particularly with big chunks 458 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,400 Speaker 3: of data or research, I often ask, tell me where 459 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 3: you sort of stop taking this in, where it stopped 460 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 3: being compelling or convincing. And one of the things I 461 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 3: find when people write, and I'd certainly do it, is 462 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 3: that we often take a little while to get started. 463 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 3: So often when you're working with someone's work for yours, 464 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,439 Speaker 3: for example, working with someone who's writing maybe ay fifteen 465 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:59,159 Speaker 3: hundred two thousand words for a publication, you'll have a 466 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 3: look at it and then you'll say, Okay, you really 467 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 3: warmed up and you got started at about four hundred words. 468 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,159 Speaker 3: So why do we have the first four hundred Are 469 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 3: they important? And if they're not, what does this essay 470 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 3: or contribution or opinion piece look like if we just 471 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,479 Speaker 3: delete four hundred words, Why don't we just start at 472 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 3: the most important bit rather than kind of go for 473 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 3: a little walk around the garden before we get to 474 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 3: the front door. 475 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: It's interesting that reminds me of advice I got from 476 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 1: Sarah Green Carmichael. I think she's at Bloomberg now, and 477 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: she said, you know, stop the throat clearing. She'll often 478 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: just delete the first two paragraphs of a piece. 479 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, I know you talk about just the critical 480 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:40,880 Speaker 2: importance of that first paragraph. 481 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: And I must say, the introduction that you wrote to 482 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 1: work clove body like it hooked me in. It's so 483 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: good at doing that with your writing. What are the 484 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 1: things that you're thinking about when you're crafting that first paragraph, 485 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:53,439 Speaker 1: how can we be as. 486 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 2: Hooky as you? 487 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 3: That's really lovely, you know. Of course, it depends on 488 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 3: the kind of writing and the kind of work you're doing. 489 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,639 Speaker 3: But I tend to follow a very rough model of 490 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:07,640 Speaker 3: micro macro micro again, so I try to start with 491 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 3: the personal, whether it's my personal or someone else's. I 492 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,439 Speaker 3: try to speak to an experience that will feel like 493 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 3: it could have been yours as the reader, So something 494 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 3: that has an element of universality. So in workloff Body, 495 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 3: for example, I talk about traveling to Camera for Christmas 496 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,679 Speaker 3: to see my family for the first time in almost 497 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 3: nine months because of the pandemic, and the kind of 498 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 3: the bits and pieces that happen at Christmas, you know, 499 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 3: the past, the prawns and shall we have another slice 500 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 3: of pie? Or should we do the crackers now or 501 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,120 Speaker 3: should we do them later? And that kind of thing. 502 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 3: So what I'm doing there is trying to set a 503 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 3: scene that is my scene. It's a personal scene, but 504 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 3: it's a scene a lot of people can relate to, 505 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,440 Speaker 3: even if they didn't travel the same way I did 506 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,199 Speaker 3: to the same place or have Christmas with my family. 507 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 3: You know, most Australians celebrate Christmas in some form, religious 508 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 3: or otherwise. Even if they didn't, most people get together 509 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 3: with family at the end of the year. Many of 510 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,719 Speaker 3: us were prevented from seeing our family during twenty twenty 511 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,400 Speaker 3: and that was this sense of reunion, but a somewhat 512 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 3: dole in reunion because it wasn't quite as joyful as 513 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 3: we would have wanted to be, because the pandemic wasn't over. 514 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 3: There was sort of almost this pause in Australia, is 515 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 3: it going to be okay? Now? So we were almost 516 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 3: pretending to do what we always did every year. And 517 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 3: so for me, what I was trying to do there is, yes, 518 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 3: capture the universal experience, but also without saying it, capture 519 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 3: that thought that everyone's had, which is what a joyous, 520 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 3: wonderful Christmas? But is it really the same? You know, 521 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:52,159 Speaker 3: I think a lot of us are thinking that right now. 522 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 3: You know, we're all looking to the end of the 523 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 3: year in twenty twenty one, is this sort of great 524 00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 3: day of everything's going to go back to normal now? 525 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 3: The truth is we're all wondering in the back of 526 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 3: our heads what is normal and are we ever going 527 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 3: to get back to normal? So I think it's setting 528 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:11,640 Speaker 3: a scene. It's looking for that universality of the personal 529 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 3: and tapping into that unspoken thought that hooks people in. 530 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 3: I then go from that to the macro. So instead 531 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 3: of talking about me and my Christmas, I go bigger. 532 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 3: I talk about women's experience of the pandemic and how 533 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 3: it impacted women differently at work, at home, with their families, 534 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 3: their health, their mental health, whatever it might be. And 535 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 3: then once I've made my broader point on that exploration, 536 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 3: I try to come back. Sometimes it's to the same 537 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 3: personal story, sometimes it's to a different personal story, but 538 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 3: I come back to myself or the person I was 539 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 3: talking about at the beginning, and I kind of go 540 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 3: full circle with what's happened to them now. 541 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 1: Something that I've heard you talk about and write about 542 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: a bit is your experience with being diagnosed with a brainshumor, which, 543 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 1: like I just kind of even begin to imagine what 544 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 1: the last part of your life has been like with that, 545 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 1: And I want to know how how did that experience 546 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: change the way you approached work. 547 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it would be different for everybody. You know, 548 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 3: there's that cliche of people having a life changing moment 549 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 3: like I had being diagnosed and wanting to change their 550 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 3: whole life, right going. If I live through this, I'm 551 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 3: never going to do this again. I'm you know, I'm 552 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 3: going to I'm going to sell everything I own and 553 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 3: go travel around the world, or you know, I'm going 554 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 3: to leave my partner and what you know, whatever it 555 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 3: might be like a change like that, it becomes this reckoning. 556 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 3: Right for me, it absolutely wasn't for me. It was 557 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 3: a really stark realization of how desperately I wanted to 558 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 3: be alive, to live the life I already had. I 559 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 3: didn't any want to change things. I just wanted to 560 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 3: be Jeremy's wife and to be rough his mum, and 561 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 3: to be mims sister, And I wanted to keep being 562 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 3: the life that I was living because it's such a meaningful, exciting, 563 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 3: joyful one. And I have the privilege of this incredible 564 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 3: job that gives me such freedom to do stuff I love. 565 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 3: So for me, yeah, it had changed my approach to 566 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 3: work because I think it made me realize how lucky 567 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 3: I am to do what I do, not how lucky 568 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 3: I am to have gotten here because I worked hard 569 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:24,959 Speaker 3: and I think I'm good at my job, but not 570 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 3: everyone gets to do what they love to earn a living. 571 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 3: And I think it also provided an impetus to slow 572 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 3: down a little bit, to do the same work, but 573 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 3: to cut myself some slack, to stop running at one 574 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 3: hundred miles an hour, because the reality was that my 575 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 3: body can't do that anymore. That I had to find 576 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 3: ways to be efficient, to be effective, to do the 577 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 3: work that matters to me, to do the good work, 578 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 3: so to speak, but to do it in a way 579 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 3: that is sustainable for a disabled body that isn't capable 580 00:30:58,240 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 3: of doing what it used to. 581 00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 2: Was some of the habits that you had to unlearn, 582 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 2: if you like. 583 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 3: Trying to do too much all at once, traveling constantly, 584 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 3: and look, the pandemics led to some of that down 585 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 3: as well. But you know I now can't. You know, 586 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 3: I can't do five cities in a week on a 587 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 3: book tour anymore. You know, before that would make me exhausted, sure, 588 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 3: but it wasn't going to put me in hospital. I 589 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 3: can't do the physical exhaust exertion of like ten meetings 590 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 3: in the city, go go, go all day, go from 591 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 3: a speech to another presentation, to a meeting, to this 592 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 3: to that, stay out for dinner and drinks, and party 593 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 3: all night. My body's not up to that anymore. I 594 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 3: have quite significant memory loss. So it means I also 595 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 3: have some changes to my work around, just processes that 596 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 3: make sure that I show up for this podcast conversation, 597 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 3: you know. And those processes have to be more thorough 598 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 3: and more intricate than they used to be, because for me, 599 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 3: if it's not in my diary, it's not going to happen. 600 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 3: If I don't take notes, then I'm not going to remember. 601 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 3: I need to be more strict about how I use 602 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 3: my time and energy. 603 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 1: What other like, what do those systems look like like 604 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: with you know, COVID with memory loss for someone I 605 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: imagined had a very good memory prior, like, what are 606 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: some of the things that you found most helpful? 607 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,959 Speaker 3: Yeah, So I try very hard to make sure my 608 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 3: meetings go for fifty five minutes instead of an hour. 609 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 3: So I try not to do back to back meetings. 610 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 3: I always try and give myself a couple of minutes 611 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 3: where I can stand up, review the notes, go for 612 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 3: a walk, clear my head, let the memories stick to 613 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 3: the extent they're going to be able to stick before 614 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 3: I come back to something. Just running meeting after meeting 615 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 3: after meeting, I start to not take in the information. 616 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 3: My team are extraordinary. So the people I work with 617 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 3: and the people who work for me are so good 618 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 3: at catching me. All of the meetings that I attend 619 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 3: at work, someone will be taking notes, Someone will summarize 620 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 3: the meeting and email them afterwards, and I always attach 621 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 3: that to the diary invite, so I can always go 622 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 3: back and recall what happened. I get up in the morning, 623 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 3: first thing, I look at my calendar for the day. 624 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 3: I go and I make my son breakfast, I feed 625 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 3: the dog, and then I look at my calendar for 626 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 3: the day. I have a shower, and I look at 627 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 3: my calendar for the day. So I keep looking at 628 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 3: it until it's squarely in my mind. And I think 629 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 3: the big one is I write everything down. I have 630 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 3: a very intricate system of lists and notes and reminders 631 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 3: and shared calendars, and that means that I can pretty 632 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 3: much imitate how I used to be. 633 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 2: I would imagine that your self taught probably had to 634 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 2: change a lot from being someone it sounds like who 635 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 2: was working crazy hours and you know, just having so 636 00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 2: many things on the go to really having to slow down, 637 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 2: Like what, how did your self talk change to get 638 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 2: comfortable with that huge shift. 639 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,840 Speaker 3: I think that's probably still a work in progress. I 640 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:16,319 Speaker 3: think I'm not as kind as I could be. I'm 641 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 3: still working on that. But I think I don't know 642 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 3: if you've heard of spoon theory, but that that has 643 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 3: really helped me. The story is that there there was 644 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 3: a woman who was at dinner. She had serious chronic 645 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 3: illnesses with her friends one night and one of them 646 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 3: said something, and she said, oh, it's hard to explain. 647 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 3: It's hard to explain what it's like to be sick. 648 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,319 Speaker 3: And they said, try us, try us, like, try and 649 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:46,360 Speaker 3: try and teach us, try and show us what it 650 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:48,479 Speaker 3: is to be sick. You know, of course we can't 651 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 3: know it, but we want to know the best we can. 652 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 3: We're your friends. Anyway, she went to the kitchen and 653 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 3: she pulled out all the spoons from the kitchen drawer 654 00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:58,879 Speaker 3: and brought them back to the table and laid them out, 655 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 3: and she said, okay, so which of you has twelve 656 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 3: spoons for the day, and you've got twelve spoons, you 657 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 3: might use one spoon up getting up in the morning, 658 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,399 Speaker 3: getting the kid's food, feeding the dog, getting dressed, having 659 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:12,959 Speaker 3: a shower, getting out the door and getting to work 660 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 3: might take another spoon to get through the commute. You 661 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,799 Speaker 3: might need four spoons to get through your meetings in 662 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 3: the morning, three spoons to get through the big presentation 663 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 3: in the afternoon, another spoon to get home on the commute, 664 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,840 Speaker 3: two spoons to get through the evening being with your family, 665 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 3: and you've got a couple of leftover when you go 666 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:33,360 Speaker 3: to bed. There are some days you might use up 667 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 3: close to all the spoons. There are some days you 668 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:37,279 Speaker 3: might only use five or six of them, so you've 669 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,280 Speaker 3: got a lot left in the tank. There are days 670 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 3: where I wake up and I've got three spoons, not twelve, 671 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 3: And so when you've got three not twelve, you have 672 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,960 Speaker 3: to be judicious with how you use them. And on 673 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,720 Speaker 3: those days you have to make decisions that other people 674 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:58,359 Speaker 3: don't have to bake because energy is so precious, and 675 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 3: what you can and can't do in the midst of 676 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:05,320 Speaker 3: pain or exhaustion or low blood pressure or whatever it 677 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker 3: might be, it's different. It's different to other people. 678 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 2: And how do you make those decisions. 679 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 3: I think it's a lot about prioritizing and coming back 680 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 3: to your core priorities and letting them guide what you're 681 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 3: going to do that day. So, for example, after my craniotomy, 682 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 3: I had very very little energy, but it was my 683 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 3: second brain surgery, and I knew that I wanted to 684 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 3: prioritize my son during that period because after my first 685 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 3: brain surgery, I sort of separated myself from him. I 686 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,360 Speaker 3: was worried about scaring him or not being up to 687 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 3: looking after him, and I think that at the time 688 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 3: probably damaged our relationship a little bit. So the second 689 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 3: time around, after my craniotomy, I threw everything at him 690 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:56,840 Speaker 3: that was my priority. If I only had one spoon 691 00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 3: for the day, my one spoon was playing Transformers on 692 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 3: the bed with my son, you know, and maybe that 693 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 3: took priority over getting up out of that bed that day. 694 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:10,239 Speaker 3: So I came back to what my core priorities are, 695 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 3: and they change over time, not hugely, but I think 696 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,400 Speaker 3: they do change. You know. At the moment, I'm really 697 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 3: trying to prioritize my hunt's son's homeschooling, trying to prioritize 698 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,279 Speaker 3: my work at Future Women, which I love and it's 699 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,920 Speaker 3: so important, and I'm trying to prioritize my health. And 700 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 3: I don't think those things are going to radically change 701 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 3: anytime soon, but your priorities do change, and I think 702 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,600 Speaker 3: coming back to sorry what you do doesn't always reflect 703 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 3: what the priorities are. And so I think coming back 704 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 3: to them and going is it really worth expending my 705 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,799 Speaker 3: energy on this when I don't have unlimited amounts of 706 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,479 Speaker 3: it is a really good practice, whether you're unwell or well. 707 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 1: Absolutely something I heard when I I don't think this 708 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 1: was even just in the research that I was doing 709 00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:58,319 Speaker 1: for this interview. I think I listened to it a 710 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,759 Speaker 1: couple of months ago, just coincidentally, was hearing you on 711 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 1: Ladies We need to talk talking about the power of 712 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,759 Speaker 1: female friendships. And I really loved that episode and I 713 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,760 Speaker 1: loved what you had to say, and I was curious 714 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:17,160 Speaker 1: about how do you go about building new friendships as 715 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:17,760 Speaker 1: an adult? 716 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 3: Hey, you've just got to be open, right, Like I 717 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,160 Speaker 3: think little when you watch kids, they're so good, Like 718 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 3: my son will just walk up to someone at the 719 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 3: playground and say do you want to be friends? Do 720 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 3: they say yeah, and they get on with it. I'm 721 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:34,399 Speaker 3: you know, when does an adult do that? I think 722 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,920 Speaker 3: we're so cautious and we're so careful about friendships, and 723 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,200 Speaker 3: it's almost like putting effort into it a new friendship 724 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,759 Speaker 3: is uncool. I don't think it's uncol I think it's 725 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,280 Speaker 3: really cool. I love people who are open and honest 726 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:50,319 Speaker 3: and follow up, and a number of my very good 727 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,359 Speaker 3: friends are friends I've made us adults friends who I've 728 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 3: had a single work interaction with, but they followed it 729 00:38:56,120 --> 00:39:00,480 Speaker 3: up with an email or I followed it up to say, 730 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:02,880 Speaker 3: let's hang out, let's go out to lunch, let's do 731 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:07,239 Speaker 3: something together, let's see where this relationship goes, rather than 732 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,400 Speaker 3: having a single work interaction and not speaking to one 733 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,960 Speaker 3: another again. I think when you have that moment with someone, 734 00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,520 Speaker 3: it's the same as a romantic moment, you know when 735 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,400 Speaker 3: you've clicked with someone, when someone is someone, when someone 736 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:20,319 Speaker 3: is a person you want to spend more time with, 737 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,279 Speaker 3: who you're attracted to as a mate, who you are 738 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 3: excited by his conversation makes you think in different ways 739 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 3: and explore new horizons. I think that the pressure is on, 740 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 3: and the pressure comes from feeling like you have to 741 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:39,879 Speaker 3: be restrained. I just recommend diving on in and trying 742 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,160 Speaker 3: to hang out with someone that you enjoy spending time with. 743 00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,759 Speaker 1: I love that and being like your son. That's such 744 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:50,120 Speaker 1: a beautiful idea. That You've worked for some amazing leaders 745 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 1: during your career, and i'd love to know what are 746 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:58,880 Speaker 1: the best pieces of advice that you've received that have 747 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:00,240 Speaker 1: stuck with you to this day. 748 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 3: I think a lot of very industry specific and have 749 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,239 Speaker 3: a lot of swearing, and they're probably not appropriate to 750 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:11,480 Speaker 3: share right now, but I certainly learned a whole lot 751 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:15,200 Speaker 3: when I worked in politics from both Minister Kalis, who 752 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:17,680 Speaker 3: I worked for for many years, and Kevin Right who 753 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,920 Speaker 3: was Prime Minister, and particularly his team of advisors, who 754 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:22,239 Speaker 3: I had a lot more to do with because I 755 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:28,240 Speaker 3: was the junior baby on the team. And I think 756 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,279 Speaker 3: you know what I took away from working in politics 757 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,799 Speaker 3: was a sense of pragmatism, was a sense of not 758 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,719 Speaker 3: letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, of 759 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,040 Speaker 3: moving slowly in order to take people with you. I'm 760 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:45,839 Speaker 3: someone with a tendency to rush, but taking slow and 761 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:51,399 Speaker 3: deliberate steps towards a goal and biding your time will 762 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:53,440 Speaker 3: often make it more likely that you'll achieve it. 763 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,600 Speaker 2: Now, I imagine that you are a big, voracious reader, and 764 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:01,040 Speaker 2: I would love to know what what books. 765 00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:04,400 Speaker 1: Have changed your thinking the most over the last few years. 766 00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:10,360 Speaker 3: Oh wow, I think you know. Look, there's been a 767 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:15,880 Speaker 3: whole lot in different spheres of my life. Probably I 768 00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:20,960 Speaker 3: read Louise urd Richard's The Roundhouse, which has a meditation 769 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:24,160 Speaker 3: on fear and the impact of fear on our lives 770 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,560 Speaker 3: that I think has really helped me get through multiple 771 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:30,840 Speaker 3: surgeries and sort of you know, being up front and 772 00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:35,120 Speaker 3: close and personal with death a bunch of times. The 773 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,720 Speaker 3: work of Amani Hater here in Australia more recently, who 774 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:43,080 Speaker 3: wrote The Mother Wound that was about is about her 775 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:46,960 Speaker 3: experiences following the murder of her mother by her father 776 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:51,479 Speaker 3: and her adjustment of thinking and how she has dealt 777 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:58,000 Speaker 3: with grief and what that has meant for her life 778 00:41:58,000 --> 00:41:59,800 Speaker 3: and the course of her life, and how she mothers 779 00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:04,440 Speaker 3: have lost her mother in such a violent and deliberate 780 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,520 Speaker 3: and devastating act. 781 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:12,160 Speaker 1: Now, four people that are wanting to connect with you 782 00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:14,319 Speaker 1: in some way and also get their hands on a 783 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:15,960 Speaker 1: copy of work, Love Body. 784 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:18,000 Speaker 2: What is the best way for people to do that? 785 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,840 Speaker 3: Well. One of the joys of having a somewhat unusual 786 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,360 Speaker 3: name means I'm very easy to find on social media, 787 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:28,360 Speaker 3: So I am Jamila Risbee on all the social channels 788 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:32,880 Speaker 3: except for Snapchat because I am not that cool. And 789 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,319 Speaker 3: then you can find Worklove Body from the sixteenth of 790 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,800 Speaker 3: September in all good bookstores and online via book Toopia, 791 00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:43,080 Speaker 3: and it's got a beautiful pink cover. You can't miss it. 792 00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,759 Speaker 3: And I think there are so many women who've lived 793 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:53,880 Speaker 3: through the last period of the pandemic and have found 794 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,640 Speaker 3: that it has changed them in a myriad of ways. 795 00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,480 Speaker 3: The same is true for the women whose experiences are 796 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:03,880 Speaker 3: reflected in this book. And I think you'll find a 797 00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:05,560 Speaker 3: lot of yourself and a lot of the women you 798 00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,719 Speaker 3: know in this book, and I think ultimately it will 799 00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:10,440 Speaker 3: be both comforting and uplifting. 800 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:11,520 Speaker 2: Amazing. 801 00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:14,560 Speaker 1: Jamilla, thank you so much for your time today. I've 802 00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,279 Speaker 1: so loved this chat, having admired your work from afar 803 00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:18,759 Speaker 1: for many years, so thank you. 804 00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:21,080 Speaker 3: Well, that's very kind. Thank you for having me. 805 00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:26,439 Speaker 1: I hope you liked my chat with Jamilla, And if 806 00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,040 Speaker 1: you are not a subscriber or follower of How I Work, 807 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:31,799 Speaker 1: now might be the time to do so, because next 808 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:35,399 Speaker 1: week I'm so excited to share my interview with one 809 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:39,680 Speaker 1: of my heroes, Phil Libban, who is the co founder 810 00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:43,439 Speaker 1: of ever note software that I use many many, many 811 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:47,000 Speaker 1: times a day, and I chat to Feel about a 812 00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:50,880 Speaker 1: whole bunch of things, including talking about his process for 813 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:56,520 Speaker 1: growing a business and making tough decisions. How I Work 814 00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:59,719 Speaker 1: is produced by Inventing with production support from Dead Sets. 815 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,400 Speaker 1: The producers for this episode were Jenna Koder and Liam Redon. 816 00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:06,600 Speaker 1: And thank you to Matt Nimba, who does the audio 817 00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:09,799 Speaker 1: mix for every episode and makes everything sound so. 818 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,879 Speaker 2: Much better than it would have otherwise. See you next time.