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Speaker 1: Now, we have been talking quite a bit about the

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Speaker 1: Northern Territory government's anti discrimination bill this week, and one

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Speaker 1: of the major stakeholders set to be impacted by these

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Speaker 1: changes is schools of faith, and the Bishop of the

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Speaker 1: Catholic Church in the Northern Territory, Charles Gouchy, is concerned

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Speaker 1: that if passed, there could be a lot of unintended consequences. Now,

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Speaker 1: Bishop Charles Gouchi joins me on the line right now.

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Speaker 1: Good morning to you, Bishop.

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Speaker 2: Good morning to you. Okay, how are you not too bad?

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time this morning. Now, Bishop, firstly,

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Speaker 1: do you support these proposed changes?

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Speaker 2: Look, I certainly am not in favor of any discrimination

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Speaker 2: against anyone, and so I think the intentions are good. However,

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Speaker 2: some aspects of the new proposed directives have got implications

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Speaker 2: that could cause a lot of angst and serious problems

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Speaker 2: for us and for other people.

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Speaker 1: So what are your concerns with the proposed changes.

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Speaker 2: People choose faith schools because they want their children to

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Speaker 2: benefit from the values and the beliefs of that community.

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Speaker 2: So in our Catholic schools, we are very clear in

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Speaker 2: our ethos and when we employ staff in our schools

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Speaker 2: they are required to uphold our ethos. Now, it doesn't

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Speaker 2: mean that every teacher is a Catholic or even a believer,

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Speaker 2: but we certainly have a firm policy that the principal,

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Speaker 2: the deputy, the director of religious education are practicing members

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Speaker 2: of our faith community. They are seen as religious leaders,

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Speaker 2: and that they would uphold the values of our church. Now,

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Speaker 2: many of our clientele, students, parents, are not Catholics, but

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Speaker 2: they still value what we offer. And with the new legislation,

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Speaker 2: I would not be able to require that these leaders

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Speaker 2: uphold our ethos and our members of our community. Also,

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Speaker 2: if a teacher was to start teaching something very different

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Speaker 2: from what we believe on values and morality, it would

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Speaker 2: be very difficult for us to say, excuse me, we

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Speaker 2: cannot quite teach that. We are not talking about a

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Speaker 2: person's personal beliefs, a teacher's personal beliefs, or even their

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Speaker 2: own private lives. We are talking what they do within

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Speaker 2: our school and what they teach that is very much

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Speaker 2: threatened by this new legislation.

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Speaker 1: Bishop, can you give us some examples of how you

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Speaker 1: think that you know or how they may be some

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Speaker 1: of those unintended consequences as a result of those changes.

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Speaker 2: For example, if a teacher decided to say that they

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Speaker 2: don't that they believe in poly amori for example, and

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Speaker 2: that it's a good thing, which excuse me. We have

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Speaker 2: certain beliefs about morality of how you live your life,

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Speaker 2: and that is really contrary to what we believe. So

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Speaker 2: please hold that to yourself, don't teach it in our school.

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Speaker 2: Or if a person was to say that they don't

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Speaker 2: believe in God, well that's their personal lives, but please

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Speaker 2: don't try to promote atheism in our school. Or if

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Speaker 2: they are a believer in another faith and they try

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Speaker 2: to encourage and foster that faith within our school contrary

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Speaker 2: to what we believe. Those are examples where we could

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Speaker 2: have problems.

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Speaker 1: No, Bishop, my understanding is that you have raised these

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Speaker 1: concerns with the government and with the Attorney General. What

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Speaker 1: has been their reaction.

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Speaker 2: Well, some months ago they put out a draft and

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Speaker 2: we spoke very strongly about some of these issues, as

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Speaker 2: did other churches and other bodies, but they have been

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Speaker 2: totally ignored now in this present form, when this President

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Speaker 2: four came out, it's obvious they ignored what we had said.

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Speaker 2: And I've written to every member of Parliament, sent them

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Speaker 2: a letter. One responded and said, no, we are not

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Speaker 2: threatening the milieure or the faith of the school. We

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Speaker 2: have just wanted to make sure that there is no

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Speaker 2: discrimination against who is employed. So and I said, We're

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Speaker 2: not about discriminating, but we are asking that those particular

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Speaker 2: leadership roles are of people of faith. I've not had

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Speaker 2: a second response. The others just acknowledged. I've asked to

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Speaker 2: meet with the Attorney General and I'm waiting for a

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Speaker 2: response on that. But certainly I've written strongly, and I've

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Speaker 2: made my letters public and people know about them. Got

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Speaker 2: many of the parents are involved that are very concerned.

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Speaker 1: And Bishop, what would you say to, you know, to

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Speaker 1: anybody listening this morning who is thinking, well, you know,

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Speaker 1: it is discriminatory, you know, to have somebody in those

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Speaker 1: roles and to tell them that they have to be

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Speaker 1: the same faith as you. What would you say to

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Speaker 1: those listening that feel that way.

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Speaker 2: The very reason why we have faith schools is that

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Speaker 2: we can promote the ethos and faith of that particular faith.

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Speaker 2: So it's it's contradictory not to hold the faith of

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Speaker 2: that of that particular belief system and have the schools

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Speaker 2: called faith schools. It doesn't make sense. So people can

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Speaker 2: look for employment wherever they wish, but if they come

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Speaker 2: to one of our faith schools, they know they are

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Speaker 2: coming to work within that particular faith Milliere. So it

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Speaker 2: makes sense to me to be able to respect that

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Speaker 2: particular miliere. Well, I would say it's about protecting the

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Speaker 2: right of those parents to have children got up in

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Speaker 2: the values that they want. So I believe it's a

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Speaker 2: form of discrimination against those families not to allow them

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Speaker 2: to do that by imposing upon them a belief system

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Speaker 2: that they don't want. So in effect, it is reverse discrimination.

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Speaker 1: And Bishop, I know that there are some concerns as

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Speaker 1: well with these amendments to the bill. This well, some

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Speaker 1: of it's a bit vague, particularly when you talk about

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Speaker 1: the offense being added or people being offended. What is

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Speaker 1: your understanding of that and how do you think that

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Speaker 1: it could impact the church?

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Speaker 2: Oh, I think it's not just the church, but everybody

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Speaker 2: else as well. It's very vague. What does offense mean.

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Speaker 2: Somebody could say there's a Christmas pageant and there is

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Speaker 2: actually an activity scene I find that offensive, or a

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Speaker 2: preacher could say in a funeral, for example, I really

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Speaker 2: believe these beliefs about what happens when you die in

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Speaker 2: a in a Catholic called Christian funeral, and somebody could

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Speaker 2: say I find that offenses. So that's so vague. It

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Speaker 2: hasn't been taught out true. It's a clumsy. It's a

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Speaker 2: clumsy proposal. Our lawyers have picked holes all over it

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Speaker 2: and said this is going to have unnecessarily litigation and

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Speaker 2: the waste of funds and resources and people's energies. It's

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Speaker 2: very vague. Bishop, Nobody, nobody wants. I would be the

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Speaker 2: first one to say, please be respectful. You disagree with someone,

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Speaker 2: do it respectfully and don't try to attack the person.

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Speaker 2: So I am against discrimination. We want to not discriminate

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Speaker 2: against anyone regarding faith, ethnicity, orientation, whatever. That's not what

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Speaker 2: we are about. I want to respect all people.

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Speaker 1: And so, Bishop, obviously you've already sought legal advice on

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Speaker 1: these changes, and and they're looking at how this may

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Speaker 1: impact the church schools.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I have and and and I say and

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Speaker 2: I have stated that publicly. Yes I have, and and

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Speaker 2: but there are so many implications. It's going to cost

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Speaker 2: so much unnecessary more resources and energy and money to

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Speaker 2: sort all this out. Look if I if I cannot

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Speaker 2: have a say school to be a genuine Shay school

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Speaker 2: where it's respectful of everybody, where we give people an

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Speaker 2: idea of other people's beliefs as well in the society

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Speaker 2: we live in and really have great intellectual respect for

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Speaker 2: values and ideas. If I cannot have that in our schools,

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Speaker 2: what's the point of having them. We would have to

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Speaker 2: close them. I think serious to consider closing them, and

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Speaker 2: then all the kids would have to go to the

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Speaker 2: state schools.

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Speaker 1: Bishop, what do you think the government need to do

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Speaker 1: here with this legislation.

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Speaker 2: I think they need to take seriously our concerns and

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Speaker 2: talk with us properly and not Russia true, and look

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Speaker 2: at the implications and put amendments into what they have done.

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Speaker 1: Well. I'm sure I know that there's other people in

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Speaker 1: the community who have really serious concerns around these changes.

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Speaker 1: And I know the government's going to say that they

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Speaker 1: have gone through that consultation process. But Bishop Charles, do

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Speaker 1: you feel as that they've actually gone through a genuine

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Speaker 1: consultation here?

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Speaker 2: No, I don't believe that. I believe that they may

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Speaker 2: believe that, but I don't think they have done it objectively.

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Speaker 2: I said they think they've ignored a lot of the

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Speaker 2: concerns expressed to them by people. And you know, people

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Speaker 2: of faith are beginning to believe they are being discriminated

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Speaker 2: against them. Honestly, people of faith are wondering whether there's

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Speaker 2: a hidden agenda. It's not. I hope not. I hope not.

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Speaker 2: I hope not.

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Speaker 1: Well, and you know, with this then you also think, well,

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Speaker 1: with this legislation, are people of faith they're able to

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Speaker 1: take legal action that you know, like you've said that

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Speaker 1: they're feeling discriminated against. And this is where it is

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Speaker 1: also up in the air. At this point, it feels, well.

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Speaker 2: I certainly want to look at all options here. I'm

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Speaker 2: taking this very very seriously. It's really questioning whether we

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Speaker 2: are going to be viable in all of our schools

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Speaker 2: and we have plenty of them giving a great contribution

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Speaker 2: to people or trust the and p I repeat, more

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Speaker 2: than have the students to come to our schools. I'm

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Speaker 2: not Catholic, but they value what we present and what

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Speaker 2: we hold. So it's a very major concern. And it's

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Speaker 2: not just about schools. As you say, this whole idea

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Speaker 2: of what is offensive, how do you determine that it

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Speaker 2: needs a lot.

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Speaker 1: More thought, so, Bishop Charles Gatchi, is the church considering

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Speaker 1: taking legal action against the Northern Territory government At this point.

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Speaker 2: We haven't said that we're going to do that, and

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Speaker 2: I certainly it's all happening so quickly, but I want

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Speaker 2: to us to be able to consider all my options

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Speaker 2: if this comes true. We have to we have to

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Speaker 2: consider all our options and we want to walk under.

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Speaker 2: We want to sit down and talk properly and anicably

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Speaker 2: and point out these concerns properly. And I'm prepared to

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Speaker 2: sit down and meet with it whoever and talk about them.

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Speaker 2: Not just I, other leaders and other people are prepared

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Speaker 2: to do the shame as well well.

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Speaker 1: Bishop Charles Gouci, I very much appreciate your time this morning.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for coming on the show and speaking to

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Speaker 1: us about those concerns.

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Speaker 2: Thank you very much.

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Speaker 1: Thank you,