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Speaker 1: As I mentioned when we opened the show today, we

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Speaker 1: now know that two people have died in shootings in

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Speaker 1: Darwin's northern suburbs yesterday. Investigations are underway into the incidents

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Speaker 1: in both Milner and Karama yesterday afternoon. It's understood that

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Speaker 1: the third person was injured in the Milner incident and

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Speaker 1: was taken to hospital. Police believe the incidents are not

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Speaker 1: related and say that there is no risk to the public.

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Speaker 1: We are expecting the Northern Territory Police to come out

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Speaker 1: in the next ten minutes or so and provide an

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Speaker 1: update on this situation. But joining me in the studio

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Speaker 1: right now is the president of the Northern Territory Police Association,

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Speaker 1: Nathan Finn.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, Nathan, Good morning Katy, and good morning to

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Speaker 2: your listeners.

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Speaker 1: Now, obviously there's not a lot that you can sort

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Speaker 1: of tell us or say about these two incidents that

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Speaker 1: have occurred yesterday afternoon, but it seems like an unbelievable

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Speaker 1: situation that's unfolded.

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Speaker 2: Definitely the information that was provided to us late last night.

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Speaker 2: Obviously it's very tragic, obviously the second sense which has

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Speaker 2: taken place, but I find it also very tragic for

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Speaker 2: our members that obviously have to respond to this and

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Speaker 2: obviously deal with these matters as well, and obviously investigate

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Speaker 2: these matters going affward. Obviously the police will come out

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Speaker 2: and obviously discuss obviously what's going on with these investigations.

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Speaker 2: But again, our support for our members to make sure

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Speaker 2: the critical incident notification is completed, referrals to our support

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Speaker 2: services are provided to these members. Obviously, these members are

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Speaker 2: due to come back on shift again today, so we'll

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Speaker 2: be touching base personally when obviously they do start shift today.

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Speaker 3: So they come back on shift again today.

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Speaker 2: Again, they were on evening shift last night and they're

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Speaker 2: due to back this afternoon for evening shift, both in

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Speaker 2: daw and a Caserina.

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Speaker 3: So in a situation.

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Speaker 1: Like these terrible situations that have unfolded, what kind of

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Speaker 1: support is provided to those officers.

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Speaker 2: So supports provided our employee support services, so there's psychiatrists, psychologists,

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Speaker 2: support workers there. Again, they make contact obviously it's through

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Speaker 2: obviously consent process that they want to be contacted or

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Speaker 2: want to have Obviously follow ups by these people. But

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Speaker 2: again i'd love to be able to say that members

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Speaker 2: involved in the critical incident could have the time off,

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Speaker 2: but Unfortunately, due our resourcing issues, they haven't got that ability,

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Speaker 2: so they're expected to come back the next day, which

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Speaker 2: is obviously tragic for them and obviously for them to

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Speaker 2: process that, it's going to take some time to obviously

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Speaker 2: what they've seen and what they've dealt with.

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Speaker 1: It's actually been a horrendous week for the whole Northern

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Speaker 1: Territory community. When you see what's going on and it's

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Speaker 1: like it's Wednesday, but from Friday, that tragic incident that

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Speaker 1: it occurred outside of Pine Creek, it is, it's a lot.

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Speaker 3: For the whole community.

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Speaker 1: But then when you look at those first responders, whether

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Speaker 1: it's the police, the Fieries, Saint John's, it is it's

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Speaker 1: a lot.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. And it's not just obviously the people and

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Speaker 2: then the victims of these matters as well. It's the family,

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Speaker 2: it's the extended family, it's the whole community that obviously

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Speaker 2: has been affected by this. And the people that have

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Speaker 2: to respond to these types of events, don't doubt that they

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Speaker 2: struggle for sometimes weeks, sometimes months, sometimes years after visiting

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Speaker 2: these locations where these tragic events occur.

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Speaker 1: Now, I do want to move along because there is

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Speaker 1: a lot to cover off on this morning and the

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Speaker 1: Northern Territory Police Association has come out this morning calling

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Speaker 1: on the Northern Territory government to stop gambling with public

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Speaker 1: safety and stop creating more work for police by expanding

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Speaker 1: its cheap policing program. That is what you've said in

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Speaker 1: a statement and said that the government's ignoring the resourcing

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Speaker 1: and staffing crisis within the Northern Territory Police Force and

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Speaker 1: instead forking out millions of dollars for security guards and

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Speaker 1: equipping transit safety officers with OC spray that should only

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Speaker 1: be carried by highly trained, experienced police officers. Finny, isn't

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Speaker 1: this a situation though? Where I mean?

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Speaker 3: Is the government trying to support you?

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Speaker 1: Do you think by providing these resources to the transit

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Speaker 1: safety officers.

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Speaker 2: They're providing band aid solutions Caddy obviously to not fund

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Speaker 2: our police force adequally, to not resource our police force atically.

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Speaker 2: They're providing the second tier level of policing which aren't experienced.

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Speaker 2: They aren't haven't got the experience of a police officer.

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Speaker 2: They're trying to substitute our ability and nonability to obviously

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Speaker 2: attend to these incidents and not resourcing as properly with

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Speaker 2: these security guards.

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Speaker 1: Now, I know one of our listeners, Grumpia, message through

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Speaker 1: and said, I doubt anyone's taken into account that the

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Speaker 1: canisters they are issued with are as strong or as

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Speaker 1: potent as those in use by police.

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Speaker 3: Is that the case, haven't.

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Speaker 2: I haven't received a briefing in relation to what they're

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Speaker 2: actually using. But again, we have strict guidelines about the

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Speaker 2: use of our OC spray, and from what I'm reading

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Speaker 2: is they have more ability to deploy their OC spray

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Speaker 2: than what the actual police do. So provide that example.

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Speaker 2: Really yeah, But the question is that I asked the

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Speaker 2: public should be asking, is have the public transport network

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Speaker 2: become so dangerous and the need for security transit security

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Speaker 2: officer to be carrying OC spray?

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Speaker 1: So you reckon that they could These transit safety officers

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Speaker 1: could actually have more power to use OC spray than

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Speaker 1: what our Northern Territory police do.

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Speaker 2: They haven't got the guidelines and policies around their use. Okay,

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Speaker 2: they've given legislations relitative right to use this OC spray. Again,

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Speaker 2: we have strict policy procedures when we can't use it.

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Speaker 2: Are they going to use it on the bus when

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Speaker 2: it's moving? How's that going? To affect the driver of

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Speaker 2: the vehicle. There's the questions that remain unanswered where we

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Speaker 2: have strict guidelines and policies and review mechanisms to review

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Speaker 2: this information when our members do deploy this and they're

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Speaker 2: highly trained, their higher experience in conflict negotiation, in legislation,

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Speaker 2: their roles and responsibility and powers as a police officer.

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Speaker 3: So what do you think needs to happen here?

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Speaker 1: Do you think that the OC spray should be taken

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Speaker 1: off the tsos?

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Speaker 2: Definitely, Katie, it shouldn't be. It shouldn't be an option

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Speaker 2: to start with. Again, we're highly skilled police officers, are

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Speaker 2: trained and the use of this tool. I'm not saying

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Speaker 2: that these these security guards aren't being highly trained. Again,

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Speaker 2: we haven't seen evidence to suggest any things such as

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Speaker 2: their training package or anything. We have some scurious concerns

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Speaker 2: that they're substituting these for the cheapest, second tier policing

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Speaker 2: across the Northern Territory.

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Speaker 1: Now, it's not the only thing that you're calling out

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Speaker 1: in the statement that came out a little earlier this morning.

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Speaker 3: You've also said that you've got.

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Speaker 1: Serious concerns about the lack of accountability and scrutiny around

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Speaker 1: the well, the use of the capsicum spray. Sorry, but

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Speaker 1: and the use of force by some security guards.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, we're seeing obviously upon review. I don't know

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Speaker 2: if you viewers know, but the Chief min is to

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Speaker 2: hand it out of responsibility of private security contracts to

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Speaker 2: the Northern Territory Police. So technically we're the employer of

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Speaker 2: private security guards as well across the Northern Territory.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, what do you mean, talk me through that.

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Speaker 2: Yep. So the responsibility for private security guards in public

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Speaker 2: places for dealing with anti social behavior. The responsibility is

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Speaker 2: handed from the Chief Minister's office to the Northern Territory

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Speaker 2: Police to manage these contracts back in July this year.

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Speaker 1: So are you talking like security right across the Northern

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Speaker 1: Territory or just the ones that are funded by the government.

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Speaker 2: Funded by the government. In relation to the ASP issues,

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Speaker 2: there's some serious concerns that this is a form of

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Speaker 2: second tier police and trying to obviously reduce the effects

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Speaker 2: of the Northern Territory Police force.

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Speaker 1: Well, the tough part about that as well is that

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Speaker 1: then I guess you are you're managing security guards or

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Speaker 1: people that are contracted that you're not like that you're

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Speaker 1: not training yourself like you would have to if it

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Speaker 1: was a Northern Territory Police officer.

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Speaker 2: Definitely. But I ask these security officers are obviously employed

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Speaker 2: by us, Now, what powers have they got to hold

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Speaker 2: or detain or to intervene in incidents out in the public.

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Speaker 3: Do they have any correct?

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Speaker 2: Obviously on legal advice, they haven't got any powers to

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Speaker 2: do this. But they are remaining to do this, which

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Speaker 2: obviously places the Northern Territory Police Force at a severe.

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Speaker 3: So you worried? Are you worried about what they're doing?

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Speaker 2: Definitely?

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, look, I mean I think it's I think

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Speaker 1: it's an interesting situation that we're in, and it's interesting

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Speaker 1: because we're it seems like we're sort of dealing with

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Speaker 1: the issues of crime and with anti social behavior and

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Speaker 1: some of the really terrible stuff that we're seeing on

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Speaker 1: our streets with a band. You know, It's much like

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Speaker 1: when it first came out that we were using things

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Speaker 1: like beer secure to try to stop break ins, rather

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Speaker 1: than actually stop people from breaking in in the first place.

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Speaker 2: We need to deal with the crime. The crime is

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Speaker 2: the issue here. It's not about equipping us with more

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Speaker 2: tools to do this. We need to stop the crime

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Speaker 2: from happening from occurring. What is the plan of the

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Speaker 2: government to make sure our crime rate reduces, not just

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Speaker 2: giving extra resource to additional people, to make sure we

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Speaker 2: can control it.

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Speaker 1: Now before before we wrap up for this morning, one

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Speaker 1: of the other resources I guess you would say that

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Speaker 1: has now also come to the fore is the wand

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Speaker 1: so these ones that are being used by the Northern

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Speaker 1: Territory Police and you and I have spoken about this before,

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Speaker 1: but the handheld scanners or wands as they're called, that

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Speaker 1: rollout has now continued throughout Darwin. What's the feedback being

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Speaker 1: from officers in Darwin and Palmerston.

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Speaker 2: The feedback is they are a great tool for in

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Speaker 2: addition to our current powers, the legislative requirements that they've

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Speaker 2: put in place inhibits our members in using it more proactively.

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Speaker 2: I'd say the feedback we're getting is that there should

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Speaker 2: have been changes to the Weapons Control Act in relation

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Speaker 2: to the ability to use the ones under this power. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: we've got a power to search people under the Weapons

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Speaker 2: Control actunder section nineteen, we have reasonable grants to suspect

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Speaker 2: that someone's carrying a weapon. To give that power into

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Speaker 2: that Act, we could have searched anyone we had a

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Speaker 2: reasonable grand to suspect, not go through the process of

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Speaker 2: establishing a certain area a twelve hour period, jump through

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Speaker 2: the thirty three hoops that we have to jump through

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Speaker 2: to sustain that we're acting on this legislation and making

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Speaker 2: sure it's appropriate.

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Speaker 1: Now, just to go back to the OC spray, what

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Speaker 1: role are the police going to play in investigating excessive

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Speaker 1: use of force for the spray? And will this add

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Speaker 1: extra burden to an already stretched police force.

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Speaker 2: Deerfinitly, so, any uses there and any complaints obviously made

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Speaker 2: by the members of the public in relation to an

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Speaker 2: assault by a obviously transit security officer will have to

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Speaker 2: be investigated for police. They also have powers of arrest,

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Speaker 2: which obviously refers to us. They and over the arrest

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Speaker 2: to us as soon as possible, or deliver them to us.

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Speaker 2: So they haven't got powers to actually investigate. They haven't

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Speaker 2: got powers to do the prosecution side of things. So

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Speaker 2: again it's these guys doing their role. If they deem

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Speaker 2: it is suitable to make that arrest, they make the

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Speaker 2: arrest and hand them over to us, who carries the

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Speaker 2: responsibility of obviously the prosecution of the matter, Lok.

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Speaker 1: Has it been work done between the Northern Territory Police

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Speaker 1: Force and the department in terms of working out how

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Speaker 1: all of this is going to work with these transit

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Speaker 1: safety officers? I know, like it may not have happened

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Speaker 1: with you as the association president, but are you aware

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Speaker 1: of work happening to make sure that it doesn't add

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Speaker 1: a burden to the police.

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Speaker 2: No, I'm not aware of anything like that, Katie, and

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Speaker 2: no one has that conversation with me at the Northern

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Speaker 2: Territory Police Association. I'm not quite aware of what the

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Speaker 2: executive level of the Northern Territory Police Force had been

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Speaker 2: doing in relation to this, but again I haven't received

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Speaker 2: a briefing in relation to what they're actually doing.

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Speaker 1: Well, look, we are going to be catching up with

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Speaker 1: the Minister for Police, Kate Warden in just under ten

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Speaker 1: minut and it's time, Nathan Finn. We always appreciate your time.

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Speaker 1: It's look, you know, I think it's pretty interesting stuff

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Speaker 1: this morning, looking at the OC spray and the concerns

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Speaker 1: that the Association have got.

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Speaker 3: I mean, what do you think needs to happen here immediately?

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Speaker 2: We need to resource our police force adequately Katie, and

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Speaker 2: not wait till the end of the view. I know

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Speaker 2: the reviews underway and the government's going to say, well,

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Speaker 2: we've got the review underway, We're ready to go. They

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Speaker 2: know now we are short. The Executive have made an

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Speaker 2: announcement also that they acknowledge that we're short. Are short

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Speaker 2: some two hundred members each day, which is thirty vans

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Speaker 2: on the road across the Northern Territory. They realize we're short.

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Speaker 2: What are they going to do in the mediate future.

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Speaker 1: So you obviously feel that you know that rather than

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Speaker 1: actually having transit safety officers with oc spray, rather than

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Speaker 1: having security out in those public places, that if we

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Speaker 1: actually had the number of police that we need, that

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Speaker 1: that would be enough who have got.

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Speaker 2: The powers to deal with these matters and not acting

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Speaker 2: outside of the law. Potentially, if we have the police

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Speaker 2: officer to deal with this, we will have a better

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Speaker 2: response to the community and make sure that they are safe.

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Speaker 2: Not these band aid solutions that create an appearance of

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Speaker 2: safety across obviously Darwin, across the Northern Territory. The government

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Speaker 2: need to stand up and say we haven't enough police.

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Speaker 2: We need to resource our police appropriately, not have second

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Speaker 2: tier policing well.

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Speaker 1: Nathan Finn, the president of the Northern Territory Police Association,

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Speaker 1: appreciate your time this morning.

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Speaker 3: Thanks very much for speaking with us.

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Speaker 2: Appreciate your time to Acudian obviously your listeners as well.

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Speaker 2: But for those members obviously dealing with these tragic incidents

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Speaker 2: across the last few days, our thoughts are with you

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Speaker 2: and obviously reach out if you do need support, and

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Speaker 2: we're always here to back you up and make sure

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Speaker 2: you are supported.

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Speaker 3: Thank you very much for your time this morning.