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Speaker 1: All this week on the Happy Families Podcast, we're talking bullying, well,

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Speaker 1: how we can stop bullying, what we can do to

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Speaker 1: prevent bullying, and especially unfortunately, because the world is not perfect,

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Speaker 1: how we can respond if our child is either a

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Speaker 1: bully or being bullied.

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Speaker 2: It's No Bullying Week.

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Speaker 1: And up next we're going to have a conversation with

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Speaker 1: Professor Donnacross, one of Australia's most esteemed and.

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Speaker 2: Highly regarded bullying experts.

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Speaker 1: Stay with us, okay, this is the Happy Families Podcast,

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Speaker 1: Real parenting solutions every day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast.

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Speaker 2: My name is doctor Justin Coulson.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Donna Cross is a behavioral scientist and emeritus Professor

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Speaker 1: at the University of Western Australia, Honorary Distinguished Fellow at

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Speaker 1: the Kids Research Institute Australia and Donna a couple of

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Speaker 1: years ago was appointed as the inaugural New South Wales

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Speaker 1: Chief Behavior Advisor, which means Donna is working in the

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Speaker 1: New South Wales government to do something about prevention and

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Speaker 1: safety when it comes to bullying. Just before I bring

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Speaker 1: Donna in, I've just got a highlight of all the

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Speaker 1: people that I could talk to about bullying. Donna was

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Speaker 1: at the top of my list when I started to

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Speaker 1: look around and think about who we could talk to.

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Speaker 1: Donna is literally an internationally renowned academic. She's worked on education,

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Speaker 1: research and policy in the US, Canada, Finland, Norway, Sweden,

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Speaker 1: den March, Japan, Israel, and a range of other places,

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Speaker 1: and has received more awards than we have time for

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Speaker 1: me to identify and discuss.

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Speaker 2: Professor cross An Honor.

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Speaker 1: What a delight to be able to spend fifteen or

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Speaker 1: so minutes with you talking about bullying today. Thank you

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Speaker 1: for being on the podcast.

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Speaker 3: Thanks very much, Justin, It's great to be here.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let me ask you a couple of basic questions

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Speaker 1: then we'll get into some more serious stuff. First one,

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Speaker 1: we know that we're supposed to be concerned about bullying,

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Speaker 1: but can you just outline a little bit about why

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Speaker 1: what happens to a child when they are bullied?

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Speaker 3: Sadly, there is evidence to suggest that of all of

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Speaker 3: the effects that probably all of us have known for years,

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Speaker 3: that the children will drop off academically. It affects their

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Speaker 3: well being, It obviously affects their social development in terms

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Speaker 3: of their levels of trust. We know it's intergenerational and

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Speaker 3: intra generational, and that means that it's likely if you've

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Speaker 3: been targeted, or if you're someone who bullies, if someone

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Speaker 3: doesn't help you, it will continue through your life that behavior,

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Speaker 3: that sense of loss of trust, or that bullying is

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Speaker 3: an okay way to treat people. It's also intergenerational because

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Speaker 3: parents who have bullied are more likely to have children

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Speaker 3: who bully, and similarly, parents who have been targeted are

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Speaker 3: more likely to have children who are targeted. I think

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Speaker 3: the most interesting element justin is the work that we

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Speaker 3: now have regarding its effects on genetics. So epigenetics is

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Speaker 3: the study of how your environment affects your genetic development,

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Speaker 3: that influences your DNA, influences your neural development, and the

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Speaker 3: most recent science is demonstrating that, in fact, it can

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Speaker 3: change how your brain is structured from the successive exposure.

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Speaker 3: So it's so worth your attention. Thanks so much for

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Speaker 3: picking this issue to address this week.

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Speaker 1: Let me ask you about the epigenetic issues the brain

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Speaker 1: structure changes. Can you go a little deeper on that?

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Speaker 1: How does a child's brain change when they are subject

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Speaker 1: to repeated, consistent, ongoing bullying? And I presume there's a

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Speaker 1: dose response that is, the more bullying occurs, the greater

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Speaker 1: the changes. If that's correct, what are those changes and

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Speaker 1: how do they impact their lives?

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Speaker 3: Yes, the neuroscience sits behind bullying is so interesting, and

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Speaker 3: as you suggested justin it is a dose response outcome.

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Speaker 3: The more you use a neural pathway, the thing it becomes,

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Speaker 3: and the more automatic the response. So one of the

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Speaker 3: neural changes is that if you are successful in responding

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Speaker 3: to someone who bullies, that pathways thinking. But if you

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Speaker 3: don't have the appropriate skills and you are defaulting to

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Speaker 3: a cortisole response, for example, you are setting up a

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Speaker 3: sort of a fight and flight response that is more automatic,

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Speaker 3: and it goes back to trauma based responses. In fact,

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Speaker 3: some researchers have argued that the changes we see in

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Speaker 3: the brain of a child who's been bullied over a

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Speaker 3: period of time is not unlike the changes we see

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Speaker 3: in a child who has been abused by a parent

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Speaker 3: or somewhere else. So child abuse and bullying is very

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Speaker 3: similar in terms of the traumatic long term change. Cortisole

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Speaker 3: responses being triggered to respond in a certain way when

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Speaker 3: somebody shouts, the sorts of ongoing challenges that we have

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Speaker 3: in that area. So it's so worth the time and

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Speaker 3: attention as parents and teachers and so on that we

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Speaker 3: address this issue thoroughly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, donad When I hear say that, my mind immediately

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Speaker 1: and tell me if I'm right or wrong here. I

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Speaker 1: think straight away of the downstream effects of bullying long term,

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Speaker 1: so adrenaline overdrive, high levels of cortisol. These are stress hormones.

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Speaker 1: What I'm seeing is down the road, a child who

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Speaker 1: is bullied is much more likely to be highly reactive,

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Speaker 1: highly anxious, and either aggressive or stressed, and just trying

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Speaker 1: to do everything they can to stay away from any

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Speaker 1: hostile situations. As they get older, my sense is that

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Speaker 1: they're not going to be highly adaptive and communicative in

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Speaker 1: challenging moments, whether it's when they're older and they're married

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Speaker 1: and raising their own kids, or having some relationship to

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Speaker 1: stress or anything like that. My sense is that these patterns,

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Speaker 1: these ways of responding distress become maladaptive. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if there's any long term research in this area, but

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Speaker 1: to me, how does that sit for you? What's your

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Speaker 1: reaction or response to that?

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Speaker 3: Yes, well, certainly those maladaptive responses are of that sort

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Speaker 3: of intergenerational and intra generational change that we see. It

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Speaker 3: continues over your life, you model these behaviors for your

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Speaker 3: children going forward. I think what's really important justin is

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Speaker 3: there's things we can do about it. You know, those

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Speaker 3: changes occur if there's no help, or there's no intervention,

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Speaker 3: or there's no prevention. You know, I am skilled to

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Speaker 3: respond to that event when it occurs, unless likely to

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Speaker 3: have cortisol response, and unless likely to have the kind

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Speaker 3: of neurological response that it's more automated. So in us

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Speaker 3: talking about this, I'm so nervous that we don't want

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Speaker 3: listeners to think, oh my goodness, this is dreadful, there's

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Speaker 3: nothing we can do, and it's so serious. It is serious,

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Speaker 3: but there are definitely actions that can be taken to

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Speaker 3: protect children.

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Speaker 1: I have a couple of other fairly quick, almost lightning

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Speaker 1: round style questions to just cover off that I think

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Speaker 1: are really important for setting the foundation for how we

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Speaker 1: can intervene later. The first one of those is, what

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Speaker 1: have you seen in research that puts children and young

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Speaker 1: people at the greatest risk of being bullied?

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Speaker 3: When a child wants to bully somebody, they look for

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Speaker 3: a certain profile. They mostly look for a lonely child

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Speaker 3: and a child that won't have an uprising of bystanders

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Speaker 3: around them. Unfortunately, a child who wants to bully will

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Speaker 3: fire this bullying at a lot of different children and

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Speaker 3: wait for the response that they want most of all,

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Speaker 3: and then concentrate their bullying on that child or group

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Speaker 3: of children. So, in addition to them being lonely or

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Speaker 3: not having a group of friends who'd stand up for them. Really, sadly,

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Speaker 3: and I hate saying this out loud, but sadly it's true,

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Speaker 3: it's also a child who's not well known by their

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Speaker 3: teacher and possibly not well liked by their teacher, so

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Speaker 3: again giving you the extreme profile. But they are two

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Speaker 3: really important factors they also look for. He gives them

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Speaker 3: a response, so gets angry or gets upset. So one

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Speaker 3: of the strategies, of course, is how do we help

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Speaker 3: kids to feel calm. They might be crumbling inside but

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Speaker 3: on the outside, stay firm until you can get out

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Speaker 3: of the situation. In addition to that, children who have

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Speaker 3: some difference are often targeted so unfairly, but that is

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Speaker 3: an element as well, and I think when we think

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Speaker 3: about the child who's doing the bullying. They're often looking

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Speaker 3: to try and assert their power, and they tell us

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Speaker 3: through our research that they're looking for ways to demonstrate

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Speaker 3: the quality of their relationships and to build popularity. So

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Speaker 3: they're looking to showcase their work and are looking for

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Speaker 3: an audience. So often they will try to do this

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Speaker 3: where there are lots of other children watching, and where

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Speaker 3: those other children won't take a stance against the behavior

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Speaker 3: they're engaging in.

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Speaker 1: When you go through that list gives a response not

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Speaker 1: known and liked and diference as a couple of thoughts

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Speaker 1: pop up, and I just loved you to maybe elaborate

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Speaker 1: on a couple of them. Initially, when you said not

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Speaker 1: known or liked by the teacher, my immediate thought was

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Speaker 1: children who come from disadvantaged backgrounds are at the greatest

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Speaker 1: risk here because they're often the least understood. They're often

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Speaker 1: the most most likely to struggle with discipline and self

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Speaker 1: control and situational awareness in the classroom. They're much more

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Speaker 1: likely to have outbursts.

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Speaker 2: Do I need to be corrected on that?

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Speaker 1: Or does that sit about right for you politically and

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Speaker 1: correct as it probably is.

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Speaker 3: Well. Certainly, when you look at aggregated data. Children who

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Speaker 3: come from more disadvantage backgrounds are more likely to be bullied. Now,

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Speaker 3: I don't think that they necessarily have a skills deficit,

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Speaker 3: but they might be bullied for their economic state. They

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Speaker 3: might not have the fanciest shoes or whatever that might be.

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Speaker 3: And also so they have less resources and support around them.

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Speaker 3: And maybe their disadvantages come from having a parent who

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Speaker 3: has mental health difficulty, so not having that level of support.

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Speaker 3: So yes, there are certainly subgroups of children. Girls are

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Speaker 3: bullied more than boys are. For example, boys are more

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Speaker 3: likely to bully than girls. We know that children in

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Speaker 3: regional areas are more likely to be bullied than kids

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Speaker 3: in metropolitan areas. We know that Aboriginal children are much

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Speaker 3: more likely to be bullied, but non Aboriginal cold children

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Speaker 3: from different cultural and linguistic backgrounds are often more likely

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Speaker 3: to be targeted, and children who are experiencing some disability

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Speaker 3: sadly are also more likely to be targeted.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I need to ask why and why

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Speaker 1: and why again to every single thing that you've just highlighted.

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Speaker 1: Time will get the better of us today for that,

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Speaker 1: But just hearing that breakdown, I remember looking at some

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Speaker 1: research some years ago. You were talking before about differences

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Speaker 1: children who shop with differences, and you've just listed a

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Speaker 1: handful of them. But I'm also thinking about weight differences, neurodiversity,

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Speaker 1: and neurodivergent challenges. I remember somebody talking about if your

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Speaker 1: lunch box smells different, right, if you've got a different

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Speaker 1: cultural or ethnic heritage and therefore you're bringing different food

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Speaker 1: to school and everyone smells it goes oh, all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, that's a point of difference that they can

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Speaker 1: pick on. It seems like if somebody wants to bully,

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Speaker 1: they're surrounded by opportunities to find somebody somewhere, no shortage

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Speaker 1: at all.

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Speaker 3: Unless there is there are bystanders or witnesses who are

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Speaker 3: willing to step up, say something, Sit next to the

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Speaker 3: child who's alone. You can really shift norms in schools around.

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Speaker 3: And if somebody's been picked on for what they've got

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Speaker 3: in their lunchbox, what if everyone else then laughed and said,

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Speaker 3: of course, you know, stood up for that person who's

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Speaker 3: been targeted. We know that that will extinguish bullying faster

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Speaker 3: than an adult saying anything, and is much more likely

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Speaker 3: to have a sustained effect because they're not getting the

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Speaker 3: popularity response looking for so we can shut it down.

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Speaker 1: Bullying is about status, right, It's just about me looking

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Speaker 1: better than somebody else.

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Speaker 3: Yes, kids, certainly, status is part of it, but it's

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Speaker 3: being popular. I want other kids to be popular. And

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Speaker 3: when you think I wanted popular, relative other children, and

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Speaker 3: it's a serious house of cards. And the child who

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Speaker 3: is bullying knows that. You know, we've interviewed children who

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Speaker 3: bully regularly. They know that they, in a sense, need

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Speaker 3: to keep bullying to keep their friends. Use that term

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Speaker 3: loosely around them because perhaps the friends are so afraid

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Speaker 3: that if they step away, they will be targeted next. So, yes,

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Speaker 3: its status is part of it.

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Speaker 1: Difference between being popular and being liked sort of stands

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Speaker 1: out to me.

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Speaker 3: There.

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Speaker 1: You can be very popular, but it's on a flimsy foundation.

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Speaker 1: Being liked means you've got people who actually care for

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Speaker 1: you and are interested in you. Donna, you've highlighted the

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Speaker 1: importance of witnesses bystanders. Somebody who says, hey, old and

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Speaker 1: sit beside you. Someone who says, can I have what

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Speaker 1: you've got in your lunchbox tomorrow? So that we've both

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Speaker 1: got sticky lunchboxes.

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Speaker 2: Or whatever it is.

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Speaker 1: What other protective factors would reduce the likelihood prevent children

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Speaker 1: young people from being bullied.

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Speaker 3: And probably the most protective factor is your relationships with

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Speaker 3: other young people. So I've already mentioned that a lonely

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Speaker 3: child sadly is a target. So from a parent's perspective,

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Speaker 3: you know social architecture enabling your kids to make multiple

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Speaker 3: friendship groups, and that multiple friendship groups is really important.

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Speaker 3: That I don't just have one very best friend, because

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Speaker 3: that makes me quite vulnerable because that friendship move school,

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Speaker 3: They'll be sick a day at school, then I'm suddenly

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Speaker 3: a lonely child. So in independent schools, for example, we

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Speaker 3: see children can sometimes join that school in kindergarten non

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Speaker 3: government schools and stay with that same group of friends

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Speaker 3: right way through to the end of school, without ever

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Speaker 3: having the ability to learn how to make friends. They

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Speaker 3: just can be around that same cohort. So it's important

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Speaker 3: that your children have practice in how to make friends,

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Speaker 3: how to walk up to somebody they don't know, start

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Speaker 3: a conversations, find something similar to chat about, or do

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Speaker 3: something with them. So a very important protective factor is

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Speaker 3: how to make friends, and how to make friends that

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Speaker 3: are reciprocated identifying people who have something in common. Other

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Speaker 3: protective factors are things like being in a school environment

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Speaker 3: that has a really clear ethos around how we treat

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Speaker 3: each other. A focus on kindness and what that looks like.

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Speaker 3: Caring for each other helps to build empathy. I'm very

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Speaker 3: protective if I'm an empathetic person because I'm less likely

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Speaker 3: to bully knowing that it could hurt somebody else. So

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Speaker 3: building that quality is important as well. Other protective factors

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Speaker 3: in addition to being around peers factors in our environment.

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Speaker 3: So a school structure can facilitate or prevent bullying by

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Speaker 3: the way that it's designed. So think about seating in

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Speaker 3: a school. If there's only five seats, five children will

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Speaker 3: sit on those and the rest of the children in

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Speaker 3: the group have to stand. There's a certain amount of

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Speaker 3: power around that allocation. Or if there's only two basketballs

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Speaker 3: out during the lunchtime break, most basketballs become very powerful

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Speaker 3: in terms of who's holding them. So ensuring that there's

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Speaker 3: enough equipment and the spaces are set up to encourage

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Speaker 3: kids to talk to each other and engage. So we

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Speaker 3: can give about physical environment here. Previously I was talking

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Speaker 3: about the social environment. These things are so critical now

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Speaker 3: for parents. There's lots of protective factors that parents could

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Speaker 3: engage in that I've already hinted at. One is that

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Speaker 3: social architecture, play playdates, inviting over different friends at different

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Speaker 3: times to help build that relationship with your children, helping

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Speaker 3: your children to have different friendship groups. So, for example,

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Speaker 3: my children obviously have their friendship group at school, but

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Speaker 3: they also have separate friendship groups where they learn music,

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Speaker 3: and they have separate friendship groups where they play football

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Speaker 3: or whatever sports they might engage in. And that's really

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Speaker 3: important to help kids have a good sense of themselves

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Speaker 3: if there's someone who can have lots of friends and

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Speaker 3: friends who are still standing when others start to fall away.

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Speaker 3: And then of course online bullying is another issue which

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Speaker 3: you might want to get into shortly, and there's certain

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Speaker 3: things that are very protective, like parent monitoring that keep

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Speaker 3: children safer online and obviously produce the likelihood of being

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Speaker 3: cyber bullyted.

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Speaker 1: This has been so comprehensive and so useful, and I

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Speaker 1: feel like we've barely scratched the surface.

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Speaker 2: Donna.

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Speaker 1: I know that I said that we would have a

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Speaker 1: short chat because this is a podcast that is for

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Speaker 1: time poor parents, But because it's such an important week,

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Speaker 1: because there's so much emphasis being put on no bullying

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Speaker 1: this week, would you mind chatting with me again tomorrow

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Speaker 1: so we can talk about the ubiquity of bullying and

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Speaker 1: what to do if your child is bullied.

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Speaker 3: I'm very really happy to do that.

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Speaker 1: Just thank you, amazing. This has just been so valuable

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Speaker 1: and so useful. Tomorrow we continue this conversation with Professor

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Speaker 1: Donna Cross about bullying for our No Bullying Week.

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Speaker 2: I can't wait. I can't wait to find out what

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Speaker 2: we're going.

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Speaker 1: To talk about tomorrow and how we can respond when

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Speaker 1: our children are being bullied. I've been through it with

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Speaker 1: a couple of my kids. It's just torture as a

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Speaker 1: parent when you think you're doing everything right. You've got

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Speaker 1: all the protective factors in place, the school's telling you

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Speaker 1: all the right stuff, and it's still not working. So

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Speaker 1: we'll unpack that tomorrow on the podcast.

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Speaker 2: The Happy Families.

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Speaker 1: Podcast is produced by Justin Ruhland from Bridge Media. Mim

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Speaker 1: Hammond's supports with admin and research help. If you'd like

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Speaker 1: more info and more resources, we will link to a

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Speaker 1: whole range of Donna's me cereal and a whole lot

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Speaker 1: more about how to deal with and respond to bullying,

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Speaker 1: and you can also visit happyfamilies dot com dot au