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Speaker 1: Already and this is the DAILYA, this is the Dahlias.

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Speaker 2: Oh now it makes sense. Good morning and welcome to

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Speaker 2: the Daily OS. It's Tuesday, the third of March. I'm

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Speaker 2: Emma Gillespie.

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Speaker 3: I'm Zara sidlerve an.

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Speaker 2: Endometriosis scandal out of Victoria has prompted the state government

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Speaker 2: to review its diagnosis standards. Now. This comes after a

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Speaker 2: recent investigation into a Melbourne gynecologist which raised serious concerns

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Speaker 2: about how women's pain is being treated and the systems

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Speaker 2: that are meant to support the one million Aussies living

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Speaker 2: with ENDO. Today we'll explain what we know, what's changing,

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Speaker 2: and what it means if you or someone you know

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Speaker 2: has been treated for endometriosis.

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Speaker 1: And today we're talking about a topic that I know

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Speaker 1: a lot of our listeners care deeply about. But before

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Speaker 1: we jump into the deep dive, we did leave breadcrumbs

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Speaker 1: on Stories the other day to suggest that we have

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Speaker 1: moved into a new office, or rather than we weren't

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Speaker 1: moving into a new office.

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Speaker 3: Yep, we are now moved. It's very exciting.

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Speaker 1: We're going to upload lots of content so that everyone

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Speaker 1: can see where we are. However, for our listeners, right

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Speaker 1: now we haven't one hundred percent nailed the acoustics, and

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Speaker 1: you might.

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Speaker 3: Be able to hear.

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Speaker 2: We are so lucky to be in a beautiful, big

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Speaker 2: new studio, which is going to be life changing when

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Speaker 2: we get all of the soundproofing installed. Correct, But in

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Speaker 2: the meantime, we're in a bit of a big empty room.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is the only time we're having a bigger room.

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Speaker 1: Is actually a bad thing? Yeah, and what a problem

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Speaker 1: to have exactly. Things will be looking up shortly, but.

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Speaker 2: We do appreciate your understanding with our transitional face exactly.

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Speaker 1: All in the name of starting up. So let's jump

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Speaker 1: into today's deep dive. You foreshadowed in the intro there

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Speaker 1: that we were talking about endometrios, and I know a

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Speaker 1: lot of people will be familiar with it, you know,

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Speaker 1: many of our listeners.

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Speaker 3: Would be living with it. For those though, who might

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Speaker 3: not be, what is it.

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Speaker 2: So endometriosis or ENDO as it's often called, as I

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Speaker 2: will call it throughout the episode, It's a condition where

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Speaker 2: tissue similar to the lining of the uterus grows outside

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Speaker 2: of the uterus in other parts of the body. So

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Speaker 2: for ENDO patients that can often mean tissue that grows

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Speaker 2: around their bowels, their bladder, all kinds of places, and

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Speaker 2: it can be incredibly disruptive and painful to live with.

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Speaker 2: According to the Federal Government, ENDO effects at least one

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Speaker 2: in seven Australian women, that's more than one million people,

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Speaker 2: and it can cause, as I've mentioned, this debilitating pelvic pain.

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Speaker 2: It's also associated with infertility. And we have seen a

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Speaker 2: massive ground swell in the last few years of more

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Speaker 2: and more attention and research going towards understanding women's pain

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Speaker 2: and ENDO specifically.

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Speaker 1: It's certainly one of those things that you feel, those

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Speaker 1: conversations really unfolding around you. That's, you know, a couple

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Speaker 1: of years ago, I don't know that I would have

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Speaker 1: even known what endometriosis was. And now you know, barely

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Speaker 1: a day goes by without talking to another woman who

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Speaker 1: has experienced it, or who has a friend who has

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Speaker 1: experienced it.

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Speaker 3: And I think one of the.

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Speaker 1: Most striking parts about INDO is just how long it

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Speaker 1: takes to get diagnosed and how how you get diagnosed

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Speaker 1: in the first place.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that is really important context for today's discussion. Historically,

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Speaker 2: women have waited an average of seven years between first

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Speaker 2: experience and symptoms. Insane and getting a diagnosis. Yeah, seven years,

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Speaker 2: So that's seven years of a woman being told, you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe that their pain is normal, that they should push

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Speaker 2: through it, take a pan atoll, or that there's nothing

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Speaker 2: to see there. So it is a really confronting figure.

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Speaker 1: And so against that backdrop of how debilitating the pain

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Speaker 1: can be, how long it takes to get diagnosed in

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Speaker 1: so many cases, and also.

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Speaker 3: So how widespread it is.

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Speaker 1: Now, tell me about the ABC investigation that dropped last week,

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Speaker 1: because I feel like that was a catalyst for this conversation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so ABC's Four Corners ran an episode called Scarred

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Speaker 2: last week. You might have seen it. It was the

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Speaker 2: result of a seven month investigation into a surgeon, a

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Speaker 2: gynecologist named doctor Simon Gordon. Now he practiced at Melbourne's

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Speaker 2: Epworth Private Hospital. He also ran his own private clinic

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Speaker 2: called Endo Health, and he really branded himself as a

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Speaker 2: specialist in laparoscopic surgery for endometriosis. He's been referred to

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Speaker 2: as the Endo Guru, a really well known ENDO specialist.

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Speaker 3: All right, I'm just gonna pause there for a moment.

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Speaker 1: Let's jump to a quick word from today's sponsor before

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Speaker 1: we go into the.

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Speaker 3: Rest of that investigation.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So and back to doctor Simon Gordon you mentioned

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Speaker 1: at the end there, and I just wanted to pick up,

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Speaker 1: perhaps for a bit of literacy's sake, for our audi.

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Speaker 1: She said that he was a specialist I believe in

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Speaker 1: laparoscopic surgery for endo.

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Speaker 3: What does that actually mean? Good question? Okay.

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Speaker 2: Laproscopy is a type of keyhole surgery. It's this procedure

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Speaker 2: that is widely used to help diagnose endometriosis. So surgeons

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Speaker 2: make a small cut in the abdomen, often in three places.

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Speaker 2: They insert a thin tube with a light and a

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Speaker 2: camera and that allows them to see inside the body.

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Speaker 2: And a laproscopy can also be used to remove tissue.

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Speaker 2: So if during the procedure, the surgeon sees endometriosis, sees

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Speaker 2: that tissue, they can remove it in that procedure. It

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Speaker 2: is an invasive one. You go under general anesthetic. It

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Speaker 2: can take one or two weeks for patients to kind

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Speaker 2: of get back to their daily activities and in some

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Speaker 2: cases several months to fully recover.

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Speaker 1: And so we're talking this surgery that you're talking about

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Speaker 1: that is only being used to diagnose in the first place,

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Speaker 1: Like that is not even the removal of the outer tissue.

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Speaker 1: We're just talking about how, and I think that we

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Speaker 1: should rest on that point because you know the figures

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Speaker 1: that we spoke about before, one in seven women Australian

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Speaker 1: women having been diagnosed. Given that that barrier is so

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Speaker 1: high for diagnosis, it's unbelievable that it is that common

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Speaker 1: and how much more common it would be in Australian

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Speaker 1: society if it were easier to diagnose.

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Speaker 2: And of course diagnosis technology innovations are developing, but for

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Speaker 2: a long time, laproscopy has really been the kind of

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Speaker 2: go to assumed procedure for anyone who wants to find

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Speaker 2: out if they have ENDO. But what a lot of

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Speaker 2: patients struggle with is making that decision about well do

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Speaker 2: I need to undergo an invasive surgery? What if I

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Speaker 2: don't have it? And all of the questions that come

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Speaker 2: with that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, And so let's go back to that investigation,

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Speaker 1: that ABC investigation. So is it right that doctor Gordon

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Speaker 1: was performing a lot of these procedures.

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Speaker 2: Well, according to records seen by four Corners, absolutely he

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Speaker 2: was performing these procedures at twice the rate of the

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Speaker 2: next busiest gynocologist at the same hospital and critically. The

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Speaker 2: investigation found that in multiple cases, doctor Gordon removed tissue

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Speaker 2: and organs from young women's bodies, telling them that they

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Speaker 2: did indeed have severe endometriosis, but their post operative pathology

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Speaker 2: so testing of the removed tissue after the procedure showed

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Speaker 2: little or no trace of the disease. These are the

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Speaker 2: claims from Four Corners.

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Speaker 1: Those are pretty serious allegations. Did the Four Corners episode

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Speaker 1: actually include any case studies or was it people speaking

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Speaker 1: anonymously to the ABC We.

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Speaker 2: Heard a really interesting case of a woman named Courtney Patten.

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Speaker 2: Now she's really the centerpiece of the investigation. Doctor Gordon

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Speaker 2: performed seven surgeries on Courtney for what he described as

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Speaker 2: severe ENDO. By the time she was twenty five, both

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Speaker 2: of her ovaries and her uterus had been removed. Her

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Speaker 2: family paid more than thirty two thousand dollars for these surgeries,

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Speaker 2: and when Four Corners suggested that Courtney request her own

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Speaker 2: pathology records as part of its investigation, the actual lab

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Speaker 2: results from her operations showed as she discovered that there

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Speaker 2: was no evidence of ENDO. Repeatedly results showed no evidence

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Speaker 2: of endo.

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Speaker 3: How does this go unnoticed for so long? You know?

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Speaker 1: If these lab results can be found and they directly

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Speaker 1: go against or it's alleged they directly go against what

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Speaker 1: this doctor was advising, how does that happen?

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Speaker 2: Well, this is where these broader allegations of institutional failure

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Speaker 2: come in, of malpractice, allegations against not only the surgeon

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Speaker 2: but the hospital within which he was operating. So, according

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Speaker 2: to the ABC's reporting, complaints were made to the hospital.

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Speaker 2: Clinicians did raise concerns, patients raised concerns and those complaints

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Speaker 2: went to Epworth management, the hospital management, They went to

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Speaker 2: the Australian Health Practitioner Regulation Agency known as APRA and

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Speaker 2: to Victoria's Health Complaints Commission. Now, during all of that,

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Speaker 2: doctor Gordon contigue. We knew to practice until October last

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Speaker 2: year when he was asked to go on leave, and

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Speaker 2: that was after Epworth management discovered Four Corners was investigating him,

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Speaker 2: and he then retired the following week. In February, he

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Speaker 2: surrendered his medical registration and appra's investigation is continuing.

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Speaker 1: So these allegations were all laid out by Four Corners

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Speaker 1: in an episode last week. What has doctor Gordon said

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Speaker 1: in response to those allegations.

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Speaker 2: He denies the allegations, so that needs to be noted.

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Speaker 2: He hasn't been charged with any criminal offense and the

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Speaker 2: details aired in the full Corners episode haven't been tested

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Speaker 2: in court, but of course we know that there are

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Speaker 2: ongoing investigations. We got a statement from doctor Gordon in

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Speaker 2: which he said that his concern was always to quote,

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Speaker 2: alleviate pain and restore quality of life for female patients.

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Speaker 2: He also said he was never aware of complaints from

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Speaker 2: patients or clinicians at.

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Speaker 3: Epworth and Epworth is the hospital.

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Speaker 2: Right that yeah was operating out in Melbourne.

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Speaker 3: What have they said in response to this?

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Speaker 2: So they are now conducting an independent review. The CEO

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Speaker 2: of Eppworth, Matthew Stripp, has announced an independent external review

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Speaker 2: of the hospital's clinical governance. He has also written to

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Speaker 2: apera's chief executive raising a concern that private hospitals aren't

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Speaker 2: always notified when a medical practitioner is under investigation. He's

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Speaker 2: described this as a kind of gap in the safety system.

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Speaker 2: So an interesting conversation there about you know, whether the

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Speaker 2: hospital knew about the alleged malpractice and whether there might

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Speaker 2: have been a failing at a higher level in the

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Speaker 2: healthcare system.

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Speaker 1: We're not sure now I want to take a step

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Speaker 1: back and just explain to our listeners a bit about

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Speaker 1: how we come to report and things. So these allegations,

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Speaker 1: as I said, were reported first exclusively by the ABC.

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Speaker 3: On their Four Corners episode.

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Speaker 1: However, they then were responded to by the Victorian Premier.

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Speaker 1: So the Victorian Premier got up and she spoke about

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Speaker 1: those allegations and then announced a string of things. And

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Speaker 1: it was when they went from being exclusive to the

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Speaker 1: Premier actually talking about it in the public square that we,

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Speaker 1: as another outlet, started to report on it because you know,

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Speaker 1: otherwise you really want the ABC's story to really have

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Speaker 1: its own space because they've done all of that heavy lifting.

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Speaker 1: But as I said, the Victorian Premier weighed in, can

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Speaker 1: you talk me through a bit about what the government

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Speaker 1: has said in response to this and what they've committed

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Speaker 1: to now?

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Speaker 2: Yes, So it is really interesting when journalism crosses this

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Speaker 2: threshold from being a compelling investigation or story to actually

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Speaker 2: being something in the public discourse in government conversations. So

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Speaker 2: the Victorian Premier just into Alan, who herself has actually

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Speaker 2: been diagnosed with ENDO. She has had a laproscopy. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: she's been really open with her experiences of pelvic pain,

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Speaker 2: and she said in her own words that she was

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Speaker 2: sickened by these allegations. Alan has referred the matter to

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Speaker 2: Victoria Police, which I think shows you the seriousness of

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Speaker 2: these allegations. And she stated very clearly that performing necessary

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Speaker 2: surgery is a crime. Removing a woman's organs without a

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Speaker 2: clinical need is a crime. She's also announced that the

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Speaker 2: state's health watchdog, that's Safer Care Victoria, is going to

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Speaker 2: sit on that independent review panel that Epworth Hospital has launched,

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Speaker 2: so they will be involved. And Alan announced the state

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Speaker 2: government is going to standardize the guidelines for how ENDO

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Speaker 2: is diagnosed. The key change there is that an ultrasound,

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Speaker 2: a much less invasive procedure, should be the first step

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Speaker 2: according to these guidelines, rather than going straight to surgery.

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Speaker 2: So that will kind of make that a uniform recommendation

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Speaker 2: for healthcare providers. And the Premier also announced additional training

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Speaker 2: for doctors treating ENDO in the state.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so we've had a pretty quick their response by

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Speaker 1: the Victorian government and they've set out what they're going

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Speaker 1: to do. Interestingly, though, given this is a state matter,

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Speaker 1: we also heard from the Prime Minister. I was scrolling

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Speaker 1: on Instagram and saw one of his posts on this

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Speaker 1: Can you just share a bit about why he weighed

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Speaker 1: in and what he said?

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Speaker 2: Yes, So Anthony Alberinezi shared a post on Thursday talking

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Speaker 2: about women's pain. It wasn't directly addressing the alleged misconduct

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Speaker 2: in Victoria, but it certainly came in this moment where

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Speaker 2: there was this heightened discussion around women's pain. So the

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Speaker 2: PM shared the story of a woman named Alama, who

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Speaker 2: he says was told to quote just take a panadol

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Speaker 2: by healthcare professionals after years of pelvic pain. He wrote,

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Speaker 2: her story is all too common, women suffering for years

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Speaker 2: because their pain gets dismissed. We're determined to change that,

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Speaker 2: and then he sprooked the federal government's plan to open

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Speaker 2: thirty three ENDO and pelvic pain clinics. Now eleven of

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Speaker 2: those sites were announced last year, so this is an expansion.

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Speaker 2: And according to a study referenced at one of the

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Speaker 2: clinic launchers, the average wait time to diagnose ENDO has

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Speaker 2: reduced from around seven years to two and a half

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Speaker 2: years since these clinics were introduced.

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Speaker 1: So we have there both at a state and a

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Speaker 1: federal level of commitment to better care for women who

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Speaker 1: are experiencing and suffering with endometriosis. Typically and traditionally, this

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Speaker 1: has been an area that has been underfunded, as we

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Speaker 1: know from the amount of funding that has been committed.

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Speaker 3: Where does all of this leave us with?

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Speaker 1: What is the picture that is painted for women living

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Speaker 1: with endometriosis in Australia right now?

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Speaker 2: I think certainly we're going to continue to see a

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Speaker 2: magnifying glass on these issues, a more transparency and a

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Speaker 2: push for better standards. Victoria Police are investigating those allegations

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Speaker 2: aired by four Corners. There are also many women who

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Speaker 2: will potentially form a class action. There are a couple

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Speaker 2: of law firms who have said that they are looking

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Speaker 2: into the alleged misconduct by doctor Gordon, so there could

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Speaker 2: be civil action there. We have the Hospital Reviewing OPRA

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Speaker 2: is also investigating, and the Victorian government has committed to

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Speaker 2: these standardized guidelines At a federal level, we've got that

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Speaker 2: investment in endokare continuing. Many women in Melbourne and around

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Speaker 2: the state will still be waiting to understand and if

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Speaker 2: they are impacted by this, if they former patients of

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Speaker 2: doctor Gordon, and whether they.

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Speaker 3: Have legal recourse.

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Speaker 2: So we will keep an eye on that.

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Speaker 1: And thank you for taking us through that again. I

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Speaker 1: know that this is something that affects so many of

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Speaker 1: our listeners, so I'm sure they will be grateful for

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Speaker 1: understanding a bit more about where that news story has

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Speaker 1: come from and where we're going next. Thank you and

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Speaker 1: thank you for joining us for this episode, even if

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Speaker 1: it was a.

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Speaker 3: Bit echoe of the Daily Oas.

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Speaker 1: We'll be back later today with the headlines, but until then,

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Speaker 1: have a fabulous day. My name is Lily Madden and

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Speaker 1: I'm a proud Arunda Bungelung Kalkotin woman from Gadighl Country.

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Speaker 1: The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on

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Speaker 1: the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to

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Speaker 1: all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island and nations.

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Speaker 3: We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries,

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Speaker 3: both past and present.