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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just answers me.

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Speaker 2: Now, Well, we've been talking a lot about parental Guidance

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Speaker 2: on the Happy Families Podcast. I so very much wish

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Speaker 2: that Kylie could be with me for this conversation because

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Speaker 2: she wanted so badly to hear what I'm going to

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Speaker 2: talk to Detective Superintendent Jane Crossling about from the Australian

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Speaker 2: Center to Counter Child Exploitation otherwise known as ACE. If

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Speaker 2: you missed it, here's the background on Parental Guidance Season two,

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Speaker 2: Episode one. The kids are given a device and told

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Speaker 2: they can go and play a game for an hour.

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Speaker 2: While they're playing the game, somebody approaches them in the

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Speaker 2: game with a really innocuous, easy to enjoy name like

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Speaker 2: Pizza and says, hey, should we play, and then tries

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Speaker 2: to get information from them.

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Speaker 1: You're online name is Pizza and you're trying to establish

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Speaker 1: a relationship with funny animal. Maybe start by introducing your

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Speaker 1: alf of.

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Speaker 3: Her name's really, she says to her name's Pepper.

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Speaker 1: That's information she shouldn't be giving out.

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Speaker 2: She's taught me I so bit already.

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Speaker 1: Ask if she knows the local shopping center. She says,

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Speaker 1: she does, Okay, keep building the relationship. See if she'd

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Speaker 1: like to meet you at the shopping center.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, she said yes.

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Speaker 2: This was all done with the help of ACE, the

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Speaker 2: Australian Senator account of Child Exploitation. And you will remember

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Speaker 2: if you watch the show, Detective Superintendent Jane Crossling walked

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Speaker 2: into the room. Everybody sat up straight and knew that

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Speaker 2: they need to listen because the Australian Federal Police were

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Speaker 2: in the room to talk about kids using their devices.

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Speaker 2: It was a really powerful, maybe one of the most

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Speaker 2: powerful parts of parental guidance. And that same wonderful Detective

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Speaker 2: Superintendent Jane Crossing from ACE joins me right now to

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Speaker 2: talk about how it all came about. So, Jane, if

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Speaker 2: we were to dive straight into just where did the

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Speaker 2: idea come from? Did you approach the show, did the

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Speaker 2: show approach you? How did this happen?

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Speaker 3: The show actually approached us. And I really have to

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Speaker 3: credit the producers and their line of thinking. So from

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Speaker 3: season one, the Stranger Danger episode that you featured around

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Speaker 3: the park and the dog right and how powerful that was.

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Speaker 3: And I have actually seen that episode myself. Stranger Danger

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Speaker 3: messaging has been around for you know, twenty plus years

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Speaker 3: for young people, and even with that, these children still,

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Speaker 3: unfortunately were manipulated. So to the producer's credit, they said, well,

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Speaker 3: if that's happening still in the real world, what's happening online?

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Speaker 3: So it was actually the producers, through our media unit

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Speaker 3: that approached us.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so they've come to you and said, we've got

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Speaker 2: this idea, can we do this online? How did you

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Speaker 2: come up with the idea that you were going to

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Speaker 2: create an avatar and have somebody approach the kids?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 2: Where did this idea develop from?

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Speaker 3: That is all credit to the Covert Operatives that you

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Speaker 3: get to see a glimpse of one in the episode,

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Speaker 3: plus a whole team behind all of that. So they

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Speaker 3: were very much responsible in conjunction with the producers to

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Speaker 3: come up with those particular scenarios, and you can see

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Speaker 3: from having watched the actual episode just how incredibly impactful

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Speaker 3: they were.

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Speaker 2: Amazing. I'd love to know a lot of people have

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Speaker 2: asked me this question and I've fumbled my way through

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Speaker 2: an answer. I'm guessing it has something to do with

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Speaker 2: the word covert. You said, covert operatives. Is there a

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Speaker 2: reason that we could we can't know who the police

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Speaker 2: officers are. Is there a reason that we had to

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Speaker 2: have an actor being instructed by the officer rather than

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Speaker 2: the officer engaging with the children themselves.

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Speaker 3: This is just best practice to keep the identity of

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Speaker 3: covert operatives who work in any crime type, because of course,

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Speaker 3: we use covert techniques across a range of different crime

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Speaker 3: types to locate evidence, to identify by offenders, and hopefully

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Speaker 3: locate and rescue victims globally in this particular crime type.

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Speaker 3: So that's just a very much of protective measure that

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Speaker 3: we don't want them to have their real world life

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Speaker 3: impacted by their online activities that they do professionally, and we,

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Speaker 3: like most law enforcementations is around the world, implement best

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Speaker 3: practice when it comes to operational security and the personal

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Speaker 3: security of the operative themselves. So I think, based on

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Speaker 3: the particular operative that you see in the episode, she

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Speaker 3: felt much more comfortable with having someone action her requests

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Speaker 3: rather than do it herself because she realized, even though

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Speaker 3: it was in an entirely simulated environment, it is pretty

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Speaker 3: impactful to be yourself manipulating children in that way.

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Speaker 2: Now do you say that it's actually made my heart

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Speaker 2: kind of palpitate and cringe a little bit like that.

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Speaker 2: I can imagine they're dealing with people who actually do this,

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Speaker 2: and now they're stepping into that role. That would that

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Speaker 2: would be terrifying.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think from time to time they do

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Speaker 3: need to pretend that they are actually engaged in this

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Speaker 3: type of criminality. But I think for a self preservation

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Speaker 3: action by getting an actor to do it, and we

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Speaker 3: hope for the actor's sake that it's not too traumatizing

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Speaker 3: for him to have been part of such a thing.

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Speaker 3: That hopefully he can see how important the outcome is

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Speaker 3: and that it's really been a highly educated episode I

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Speaker 3: think for everybody.

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Speaker 2: For those who haven't seen it, it is still available

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Speaker 2: on nine now and it will be for some time.

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Speaker 2: I can't recommend watching it enough, Jane. When the operative

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Speaker 2: instructed the actor to approach the children one by one

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Speaker 2: as they participated in these activities, we saw some kids

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Speaker 2: refuse to engage. They didn't really play the game at all.

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Speaker 2: We saw others engage, but they lied to the actor

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Speaker 2: and did great job of keeping themselves safe. But we

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Speaker 2: saw two families where the kids gave away the farm.

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Speaker 2: I mean they just told the actor everything, and one

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Speaker 2: of them even wanted to meet up. Were you surprised

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Speaker 2: when you watched this happen with these families and these

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Speaker 2: children to get this outcome.

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Speaker 3: Look, I know from the reports that we get here

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Speaker 3: at ACE, I know that it can happen very quickly.

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Speaker 3: But the fact that in a simulated environment that kids,

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Speaker 3: and as you say, two of them in particular, reacted

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Speaker 3: the way that they did and responded so incredibly rapidly

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Speaker 3: to the questions that the actor was asking, yeah, really

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Speaker 3: really troubling. And it just sort of shows that we've

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Speaker 3: got a bit more work to do, not only is

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Speaker 3: a law enforcement agency, but as a whole community.

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Speaker 2: Jane, let's talk about the situations as they occurred. We

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Speaker 2: had one family, the Lighthouse family, whose child wanted to

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Speaker 2: go and meet up at the local shopping center and

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Speaker 2: then she walked out of the room and told her parents,

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Speaker 2: and they obviously were able to have a really important

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Speaker 2: conversation about it. When you look at that scenario and

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Speaker 2: you compare it to Cat, the honest parent, her daughter

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Speaker 2: lied about what was going on in the chat and

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Speaker 2: completely covered it all up. Cat had no idea until

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Speaker 2: it was shown to her in the room. When you

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Speaker 2: watch that as a person working in the environment in

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Speaker 2: which you work, what advice do you have for parents

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Speaker 2: around number one, minimizing the information disclosure obviously that's critical,

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Speaker 2: but number two, making sure that the relationship is open

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Speaker 2: enough that the kids will tell you as happened with

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Speaker 2: the Lighthouse family, as opposed to Kat, the honest parent

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Speaker 2: not knowing, I mean, this could have ended in literal,

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Speaker 2: legitimate tragedy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so very very different outcomes for those two different scenarios.

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Speaker 3: So in the Lighthouse family, the sort of very upfront

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Speaker 3: that this is happened. That's fine, But we certainly had

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Speaker 3: concerns and I raised that in the episode, that they

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Speaker 3: assumed that because their daughter doesn't have access to games

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Speaker 3: in the household environment, that she's safe in the whole universe.

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Speaker 3: And I think for them that was a real wake

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Speaker 3: up call. They cared and they were very concerned, but

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Speaker 3: they just hadn't necessarily got around to having that conversation yet.

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Speaker 3: So that was certainly an opportunity for the Lighthouse family

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Speaker 3: after that, and there are other children of course in

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Speaker 3: the household as well, that they can extend those learnings

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Speaker 3: out to the situation with Kat and her household. I

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Speaker 3: think I can see why it impacted Kat as much

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Speaker 3: as it did, simply because they had had conversations before

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Speaker 3: about sharing information. So I think Kat was probably more

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Speaker 3: in tune with the fact that there are risks out

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Speaker 3: there and the fact that not only did Bill respond

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Speaker 3: far too well to the grooming process. Yes, there was

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Speaker 3: that element of lying, but as I say in the episode,

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Speaker 3: I wonder if part of it is because when Cats

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Speaker 3: come back in the room after Billy's time is up,

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Speaker 3: and she's got a very heightened sense of being very inquiring,

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Speaker 3: I suppose, and saying what did you do and what

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Speaker 3: is this? And I think Billy felt a little bit

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Speaker 3: on the back foot and that she needed to explain

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Speaker 3: her behavior and minimize her behavior. And it just shows

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Speaker 3: that even in a household where there's been open conversations

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Speaker 3: and Cat's writing characterizing herself as an honest parent, it

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Speaker 3: doesn't mean there's any failing. It just shows that you

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Speaker 3: have to have these incredibly regular conversations. It's just such

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Speaker 3: an unfortunate situation with the ever evolving nature of the

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Speaker 3: way that kids interact with device. It's not as if

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Speaker 3: you can have a set and forget kind of conversation.

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Speaker 3: It has to be a continual conversation as the technology

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Speaker 3: and the risks both evolve.

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Speaker 2: This advice feels so important. What kind of feedback have

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Speaker 2: you had at ACE in relation to the show? And

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Speaker 2: I don't just mean from other officers who are working

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Speaker 2: with you, but even from the community. Have you had

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Speaker 2: a sense of how the show has been received in

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Speaker 2: the community.

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Speaker 3: I absolutely have. I have to say that it's been

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Speaker 3: incredibly and overwhelmingly positive. I have had people reach out

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Speaker 3: to me from high school to say that they saw it.

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Speaker 3: I've had peers and people in child protection reach out

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Speaker 3: to say, you know, what a good job that we

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Speaker 3: And it's certainly not just me, it's definitely the COVID

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Speaker 3: unit as well, and how well of we worked with

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Speaker 3: the producers to get it where it was and yourself

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Speaker 3: and Ali. So that's been incredibly positive. I've had NGOs

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Speaker 3: and other stakeholders send me emails saying that they that

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Speaker 3: they tuned in and that they thought it was done very,

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Speaker 3: very well and that it was very impactful. But in

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Speaker 3: terms of really tangible action based outcomes, we've had a

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Speaker 3: massive surge in people visiting the think you Know website.

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Speaker 3: We've had a surge in schools and groups actually committing

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Speaker 3: right through to booking in a presentation. So this means

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Speaker 3: a face to face presentation in predominantly school environments, but

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Speaker 3: not exclusively where we actually come in using our volunteer

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Speaker 3: model and give a face to face presentation. So for us,

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Speaker 3: the bookings have gone through the roof, which is exactly

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Speaker 3: what the model is designed to be. We're based all

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Speaker 3: around in Australia. We're looking to onboard even more volunteers

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Speaker 3: off the back of it who were interested in the program. So,

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Speaker 3: you know, for us, it's been such an incredible positive

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Speaker 3: impact on think you Know and the awareness of it.

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Speaker 3: So we're incredibly grateful for that and I think it'll

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Speaker 3: have ripple effects for some time.

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Speaker 2: I'm so grateful to hear you say that we will

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Speaker 2: link to think you Know in our show notes, and

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Speaker 2: even hearing you talk about how you've had people say

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Speaker 2: we want to book presentations to teach this stuff. I'm

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Speaker 2: sure that a lot of people who will listen to

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Speaker 2: the podcast right now who are in education maybe didn't

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Speaker 2: even know that that was available, and so we were

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Speaker 2: linked to that in the show notes as well. For you,

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Speaker 2: Jane feedback that I've had has been continual, and essentially

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Speaker 2: the feedback has been We've talked to the kids about

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Speaker 2: this lot, but it wasn't until they saw it happen

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Speaker 2: that they realized how serious it is and how easy

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Speaker 2: it is. And I wonder if there's anything that you

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Speaker 2: would react to in that response from parents around just

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Speaker 2: the vision just watching someone have the experience and how

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Speaker 2: real that made it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So, look, we've been saying for such a long time,

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Speaker 3: and we have, you know, some really basic safety tips,

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Speaker 3: and one of them is the need for parental supervision.

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Speaker 3: So we will continue to talk about that. But the

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Speaker 3: other thing that we talk about a lot is that

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Speaker 3: it's actually not a child's role to keep themselves safe,

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Speaker 3: so parents and adults in a young person's life have

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Speaker 3: to also step up, and that means educating themselves. So

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Speaker 3: I think hopefully the kids are more awarebatically if they

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Speaker 3: took the opportunity to watch this show with their family,

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Speaker 3: and I think that I've seen some of the commentary

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Speaker 3: on social media suggesting that that did happen, and I

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Speaker 3: think that sounds really positive. But also I hope parents

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Speaker 3: realize that if they perhaps have been passive or even

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Speaker 3: bearing their head in their sand, which we know that

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Speaker 3: can happen as well, because technology can at times be

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Speaker 3: incredibly daunting and overwhelming. We hope that some parents have realized, actually, no,

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Speaker 3: you've got a really critical role in this. You can't

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Speaker 3: bury a head in the sand. Technology is not going away.

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Speaker 3: You need to find ways to engage with your young

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Speaker 3: person and start what might be a very uncomfortable conversation.

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Speaker 3: And you know, the parent, We're going to have all

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Speaker 3: sorts of uncomfortable conversations. It's not just going to be

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Speaker 3: on technology.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, welcome to parenting.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's right. So if that's the case, and

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Speaker 3: if you acknowledge your role in all of that, we've

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Speaker 3: got loads of resources so the thinking. Our website has

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Speaker 3: so many resources on how to actually start that conversation.

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Speaker 3: And it's never ever too late. So don't imagine you

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Speaker 3: have to get in at the ground level, though getting

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Speaker 3: into the ground level is ideal, we would say. And

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Speaker 3: that's another question we often get, is like how early

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Speaker 3: is too early? Well, it's actually not early. As soon

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Speaker 3: as they've got access to a device that can connect

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Speaker 3: with the internet, that's it. That's all we say. Or

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Speaker 3: that you know they're going into an environment where they're

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Speaker 3: going to have access, and particularly the risk of access

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Speaker 3: without that parental supervision. So we've had an opportunity to

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Speaker 3: really reinforce that message that the parents have such a

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Speaker 3: key role and that's a real struggle for some parents

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Speaker 3: to get their head around when they're very, very busy.

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Speaker 3: We absolutely understand that, and I can understand the frustration

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Speaker 3: that parents must have saying, you mean and we bother

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Speaker 3: to sit down with them and do this and it

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Speaker 3: say actually.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I reckon. Just watching the show though, is

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Speaker 2: all you need to get that conversation going. I think

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Speaker 2: that we've probably started a couple of hundred thousand conversations

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Speaker 2: around the country just as a result of that episode.

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Speaker 2: So great work, Love talking to you, and so so

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Speaker 2: very much appreciate that you've taken the time to just

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Speaker 2: do a bit of a I guess a review of

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Speaker 2: what happened in episode one. Thank you, Jane, Thank you.

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Speaker 2: It's Detective Superintendent Jane Crossling from the Australian Senate Accounter

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Speaker 2: Child Exploitation or ACE or link to them in the

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Speaker 2: show notes, you can google them. Make sure that you're

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Speaker 2: having this conversation. It just matters so so much. For

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Speaker 2: more about making your family happier, don't just visit Ace,

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Speaker 2: visit happy families dot com, dot you, or the Doctor

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Speaker 2: Justin Colson's Happy Family's Facebook page for more