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Speaker 1: And we know that correctional offices across the Northern Territory

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Speaker 1: are ramping up industrial action after overwhelmingly rejecting the government's

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Speaker 1: latest enterprise agreement offer, with ninety seven percent voting no.

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Speaker 1: The United Workers Union sees the result reflects deep frustration

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Speaker 1: over what they've described as unsafe staffing levels, burnout and

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Speaker 1: long standing resourcing issues across the system. Now we know

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Speaker 1: that there's planned walk offs at Holts and Berema prisons

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Speaker 1: this week. They're expected to further disrupt operations, raising concerns

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Speaker 1: about safety and stability inside the correctional facilities. Joining us

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Speaker 1: in the studio is the Northern Territory Correctional Services Commissioner,

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Speaker 1: Matthew Varley.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, Commissioner, Good morning Katie, and good morning everyone.

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Speaker 1: Now, what is your response to this very decisive rejection

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Speaker 1: of the government's offer by correctional officers.

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Speaker 2: Look, I have to say I'm not surprised, to be honest, Katie,

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Speaker 2: we saw the union campaign significantly against the offer. The

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Speaker 2: offer is fair and reasonable in all the circumstances. But

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Speaker 2: to point out to your listeners, yes, ninety seven percent

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Speaker 2: of those voted said no, but the total overall vote

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Speaker 2: was about seventy percent of the whole workforce.

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Speaker 1: So not everybody voting.

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Speaker 2: No, not everybody voted.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that's a high or low number, seventy percent?

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Speaker 2: Look, I think it's probably expected. We always see it's

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Speaker 2: not compulsory voting, and we always see a bunch of

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Speaker 2: people who aren't able to vote. I would just say

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Speaker 2: I would draw caution against conclusions based on statistics around

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Speaker 2: ninety seven percent. It's not you know, it's a strong

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Speaker 2: emphatic no. But our point is that it was a

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Speaker 2: fair package. But we're not really talking about the honest

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Speaker 2: answers about what's really at the heart of this dispute, Kadio.

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Speaker 2: And that's what I want to cover today.

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Speaker 1: I guess the thing is, however you look at it,

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Speaker 1: they're still planning, like those officers are still planning for

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Speaker 1: these walk offs tomorrow. How concerned are you about the

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Speaker 1: impact of this action, which is indeed going to include

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Speaker 1: well walk offs. It's no doubt going to have an

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Speaker 1: impact I would imagine on safety and also operations.

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Speaker 2: Yeahsolutely, Katie. And that's why we're doing what we're doing.

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Speaker 2: I've always said these strikes in prisons are unsatisfactory and unsafe.

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Speaker 2: Today we've taken another application to the Fair Work Commission

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Speaker 2: to seek in order to stop the strike going ahead tomorrow,

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Speaker 2: and I've got a prior evidence case to the Commission.

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Speaker 1: You were unsuccessful last time. What makes you think it'll

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Speaker 1: work this time?

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Speaker 2: Well? I think I have a responsibility to territorians and

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Speaker 2: to the Lord to call out what I say is

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Speaker 2: an unsafe working environment, and I always do that. The

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Speaker 2: argument is that we can just lock down the prison

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Speaker 2: walk away and she'll be right. I say no, tomorrow morning,

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Speaker 2: We've got to still field a team of staff on

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Speaker 2: the ground to make sure we can deliver medication, make

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Speaker 2: sure we can provide meals and make sure we can

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Speaker 2: respond to emergencies that doesn't stop. And I simply do

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Speaker 2: not have enough staff available, qualified staff to do that job.

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Speaker 1: So you're going back to Fair Work today to try

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Speaker 1: to stop this. When's that happening? We've listed?

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Speaker 2: Well, sorry, I've just been notified the hearing is listed

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Speaker 2: for ten thirty this morning. I expect it will go

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Speaker 2: for us several hours. Obviously, the union's represented and so

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Speaker 2: are we, and it's up to the Fair Work Umpire

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Speaker 2: to make that call.

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Speaker 1: Is it a bit heavy handed. I mean, surely officers

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Speaker 1: reserve the right to be able to strike, good, to

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Speaker 1: take industrial action. That's sort of the one measure that

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Speaker 1: they've got to try and get you to the table.

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Speaker 2: And let me clarify this. What I'm saying is, at

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Speaker 2: the moment, our senior custodial managers from Holtz and Behramer

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Speaker 2: have determined what they say is the minimum number of

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Speaker 2: staff we need to operate those facilities during the strike.

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Speaker 2: We're not saying stop the whole strike. I'm saying I

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Speaker 2: don't have enough staff to make sure that I can operate, So.

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Speaker 1: You want to force some to still come.

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Speaker 2: Correct So the union has given us a concession Katie,

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Speaker 2: for example, of sixteen officers to be available tomorrow to

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Speaker 2: work at Holtz. What we've said is we need sixty one.

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Speaker 2: So we've tried to put as many corrections, managers, qualified

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Speaker 2: officers into those roles to make up the balance. We're

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Speaker 2: still short. We're still short at Berrima and we're still

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Speaker 2: and this is a twenty four hour strike, Katie, so

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Speaker 2: it goes overnight as well into Thursday. So we're well

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Speaker 2: short of what we need. And that's just pure maths.

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Speaker 2: So what we're now doing, Katie, and I'm forced to

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Speaker 2: do is send civilian, if you like, corrections staff from

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Speaker 2: community corrections or admin or youth justice into the prisons

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Speaker 2: to support those other frontline officers that are left behind.

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Speaker 2: And I say that's unacceptable.

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Speaker 1: So that's why you feel as though that's unsafe and

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Speaker 1: you really you're obviously really hoping that this isn't able

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Speaker 1: to go ahead.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's right, and I think I've got a responsibility

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Speaker 2: to my staff, to the prisons, and to territories to

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Speaker 2: say we say that leaving the prison critically short of

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Speaker 2: staff is not just a symbolic strike. It's a safety

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Speaker 2: and a security risk. And that doesn't dissipate the moment

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Speaker 2: the union walks out the door.

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Speaker 1: What happens if you're not successful today with fair work.

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Speaker 2: Well that's exactly what happened last Friday in Alice Springs.

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Speaker 2: And at the end of the day, what that meant

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Speaker 2: is I put unqualified correctional civilian staff into the prison

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Speaker 2: alongside uniformed officers and we managed as best week. But

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Speaker 2: I think if something goes wrong, territorians would be asking me,

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Speaker 2: why the hell do we do that?

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Speaker 1: Well, it sounds like that's the only option you've got

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Speaker 1: really left with.

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Speaker 2: Then that's why I said, I have no other alternative

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Speaker 2: than to go back to Fair Work, put my case

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Speaker 2: on the table in front of the Commission and argue

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Speaker 2: my point. Now, if the Fairwork Commission rules against me,

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Speaker 2: I'll get on with the job. But it's not satisfactory.

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Speaker 1: Commissioner officers are saying that they are wanting to take

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Speaker 1: this industrial action because they say that they've got unsafe

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Speaker 1: staffing levels and burn out, they're at crisis point. Do

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Speaker 1: you accept that assessment and what are you doing to

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Speaker 1: address it?

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Speaker 2: Well, firstly, Katie, i'd point you back to an interview

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Speaker 2: that we probably had in about twenty twenty two twenty

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Speaker 2: three when we were going through the last round of

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Speaker 2: industrial bargaining. I looked this up yesterday and you and

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Speaker 2: I had this same conversation about three and a half

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Speaker 2: years ago, and they said the same thing. So if

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Speaker 2: it was about staffing, then I would point to the

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Speaker 2: argument that we've actually increased the corrections workforce by over

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Speaker 2: thirty five percent.

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Speaker 1: In the last numbers have increased significant.

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Speaker 2: So what that means is the ratio of officers to

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Speaker 2: prisoners has not materially changed. So the argument that you know,

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Speaker 2: we're at breaking point where we're understaff, we're critically short

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Speaker 2: staff doesn't get borne out by the data. What it

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Speaker 2: does mean, though, is we are still working through a dispute.

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Speaker 2: And that's what I think the UW referred to yesterday

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Speaker 2: around this safe staffing model. And that's what I wanted

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Speaker 2: to talk to you about today, K because ultimately what

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Speaker 2: we have is a clause in the agreement that says

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Speaker 2: I must agree with the union in assigned document effectively

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Speaker 2: about what the staffing models are for the prison. Now

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Speaker 2: that's not I've never said that's about minimum safe staffing.

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Speaker 2: We always know and I've just told you about minimum numbers.

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Speaker 2: What this document requires me to do is attempt to

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Speaker 2: fill every shift on every roster, every day on overtime

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Speaker 2: first and then through redirections. And I must work hard

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Speaker 2: every single day to reach that optimum staffing level. Now

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Speaker 2: some people would say that's sensible. My argument is I've

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Speaker 2: got one head tie behind my back because at the

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Speaker 2: end of the day, you know, last financial year, I

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Speaker 2: saw one hundred and sixty thousand hours of unscheduled, unplanned.

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Speaker 1: Absence from what much did that cost.

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Speaker 2: That was around eleven to twelve million dollars of my

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Speaker 2: total twenty two million dollar overtime bill. So we're paying

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Speaker 2: twenty two million dollars a year of taxpayers money in

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Speaker 2: overtime to the Northern Territory Correction system. It's inefficient, it's ineffective,

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Speaker 2: and it's a result a direct result of these operating

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Speaker 2: models that I'm seeking to change.

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Speaker 1: So how can you do like, how can we do

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Speaker 1: things differently when we've got a situation right now where

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Speaker 1: our correctional officers are saying that they don't feel safe.

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Speaker 1: They are you know, they're saying it's not a pay issue,

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Speaker 1: they're saying it's a safety issue. You're sort of saying

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Speaker 1: to me, well, you know, you've made a number of changes,

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Speaker 1: and you've also got to juggle this twenty two million

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Speaker 1: dollar overtime bill each year, Like, how do we come

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Speaker 1: to an agreement here that everybody's sort of satisfied with? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Well, what I want to be really clear about is

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Speaker 2: I've never said this is not about minimum safe staffing,

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Speaker 2: but every prison general manager and the corrections department must

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Speaker 2: have the ability to manage the resources on a daily basis.

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Speaker 2: By redirecting staff, by providing a redistribution of services, by

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Speaker 2: closing down activities if we need to. But the first

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Speaker 2: stop shouldn't just be agreement with the union on overtime.

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Speaker 2: And that's the whole point of this clause. So I

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Speaker 2: have no problem identifying what the minimum safe staffing level

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Speaker 2: of the prisons are. What we're actually saying is the

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Speaker 2: documents require me to staff to full strength, and when

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Speaker 2: you're dealing with two hundred and fifty shifts a week

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Speaker 2: of unplanned absence, that's an impossible task. So the union

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Speaker 2: says it's about safe staffing. The union says it's not

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Speaker 2: about the money. I don't agree with that, Katie. It

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Speaker 2: absolutely is about the money. It's about twenty two million

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Speaker 2: dollars worth of overtime. And I'm going to sort of

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Speaker 2: give give you something here that's never been said before,

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Speaker 2: and it just shows you the scale of the problem.

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Speaker 2: Last financial year, Katie, twenty five correctional offices in Northern

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Speaker 2: Territory took home collectively three million dollars in overtime. Twenty

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Speaker 2: five of my top earning officers took home three million

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Speaker 2: dollars collectively. Now, I've never been able to say that before.

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Speaker 2: But that's the kind of scale of the problem I'm

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Speaker 2: dealing with.

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Speaker 1: That's a heck of a lot of money.

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Speaker 2: Well it's a heck of a lot of money, but

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Speaker 2: it's also it's a structural problem. It's a rostering problem,

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Speaker 2: it's a fatigue problem. So on one hand, the union

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Speaker 2: criticizes me for not having sufficient staffing and fatigue in place.

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Speaker 2: On the other hand, I'm dealing with a huge amount

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Speaker 2: of leave without pay. So financial year to date, Katie,

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Speaker 2: at the end of February, I had something like forty

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Speaker 2: four thousand hours of leave without pay. That's not sickly,

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Speaker 2: that's leave without pay KT that I then have to

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Speaker 2: pay overtime to fill. So you can take leave without pay,

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Speaker 2: then you can make it up next week in overtime.

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Speaker 2: It sounds like.

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Speaker 1: You've sort of, you know, you've reached you're at your

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Speaker 1: wits eat with negotiating with the union. I mean, it

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Speaker 1: sounds like the union has had a bit of a

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Speaker 1: gutfull as well, and they're you know, they're obviously forging

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Speaker 1: ahead with this industrial action. Like where do we go

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Speaker 1: from here?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think where we'll go from here is in

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Speaker 2: and that's in the hands of the Commissioner for Public Employment.

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Speaker 2: But we're going to have to go into some sort

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Speaker 2: of negotiations on a fed income solution for this for

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Speaker 2: territorians and for the system. Now, Katie, I am at

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Speaker 2: my wits end a little bit because I've been doing

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Speaker 2: this now for the territory for four years and a bit.

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Speaker 2: We've been talking about short staffing and prison crisis for

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Speaker 2: four years. The point is we've put a thousand beds

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Speaker 2: into the system. We've recruited, you know, the highest number

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Speaker 2: of correctional offices we've ever had. If I can spend

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Speaker 2: some of this money on improving the technology and the

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Speaker 2: productivity in the system, we might have a fighting chance

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Speaker 2: at actually making our system more effective and more efficient.

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Speaker 2: And that's what we all want. But today, Katie, I've

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Speaker 2: got paperwork in that and that still runs on carbon paper, right,

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Speaker 2: so triplicate form still being filled out. Why can't I

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Speaker 2: fix ict and productivity issues because I'm spending twenty five

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Speaker 2: million bucks a year in overtime.

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Speaker 1: Well Corrections Commissioner Matthew Varley. I mean, you've certainly given

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Speaker 1: us all something to think about, and it's going to

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Speaker 1: be really interesting now to see what happens at ten

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Speaker 1: point thirty this morning when when that Fair Work hearing

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Speaker 1: gets underway. No doubt we'll be talking to you again soon,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure.

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Speaker 2: Well, I thank you, Katie, I thank you for support. Tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: We expect the protest for people calling for my head.

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Speaker 2: That's just how it rolls.

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Speaker 1: Well, And do you know what, I guess we all

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Speaker 1: get that. We understand that certainly. You know, officers have

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Speaker 1: the opportunity or they you know, they reserve the right

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Speaker 1: to be able to protest what they think is right.

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Speaker 1: But then you have a you know, you've got a

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Speaker 1: job to do where you've got to manage our correctional

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Speaker 1: facilities as well and do it to the best of

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Speaker 1: your ability, while also juggling a budget that is blowing out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know you've been to talking about ambulances

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Speaker 2: and stuff this morning. You know, the territory budget is

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Speaker 2: tight and my job is to make sure I've got

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Speaker 2: a responsibility to taxpayers to make sure this system operates

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Speaker 2: as effectively and as efficiently as possible. And I think

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Speaker 2: I can't do that unless I call some of these

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Speaker 2: things out well.

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Speaker 1: Corrections Commissioner Matthew Varley appreciate your time this morning. We'll

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Speaker 1: talk to you again soon.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Katie Bay, thank you,