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Speaker 1: Well we know the Deputy Chief Ministers staring down these

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Speaker 1: calls for his resignation over the latest shares scandal of

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Speaker 1: the Northern Territory. Chief Minister Evil Laula yesterday defending her

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Speaker 1: deputy after it was revealed that he'd purchased shares in

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Speaker 1: a major liquor and grocery wholesaler that supplies alcohol to

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Speaker 1: central Australian bottle shops. It has now been revealed that

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Speaker 1: he owned over four hundred dollars in shares. The Deputy

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Speaker 1: Chief Minister Chancey Paike joins me on the line right now,

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Speaker 1: Good morning to you.

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Speaker 2: Good morning Katie.

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Speaker 1: Now, Deputy, why did you buy those shares?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look like most people who meet with their financial

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Speaker 2: planners and accountants, I was asked, are encouraged to consider shares.

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Speaker 2: So look, I purchased a range of shares through my bank.

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Speaker 2: Some of them happened to be met Cash, which supplies groceries,

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Speaker 2: hardware and liquor right across Australia. That was four hundred

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Speaker 2: and thirty six dollars and sixty cents to be precise.

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Speaker 2: And other shares were in environmental sustainability, so.

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Speaker 1: You did purchase them. They weren't gifted to you.

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Speaker 2: No, that's correct. As I said, I purchased shares in

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Speaker 2: met Cash and an environmental sustainability and.

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Speaker 1: That followed financial advice. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Look like everyone who meets with their financial planners and

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Speaker 2: accountants being encouraged to consider that as an option. And

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Speaker 2: then I did that through my bank, so they.

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Speaker 1: Would declared on May nineteenth, twenty twenty two, two months

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Speaker 1: before the stronger futures legislation ended. I mean, did you

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Speaker 1: buy those shares in particular because you thought they'd be

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Speaker 1: a valuable investment.

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Speaker 2: Katie, There was four hundred and thirty six dollars worth.

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Speaker 2: The met Cash is a three point eight billion dollar company,

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Speaker 2: so I was certainly not buying those to get rich

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Speaker 2: off them.

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Speaker 1: I also, you did say that you sought financial advice,

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Speaker 1: and that the financial advice was to purchase shares. So

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Speaker 1: I'm just trying to ascertain why exactly those those shares.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, I you know, went through through my bank,

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Speaker 2: and there were a whole range of shares that were

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Speaker 2: available at the time to be acquired. And as I said,

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Speaker 2: I acquired four hundred and thirty six dollars worth of

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Speaker 2: met Cash and also environmental environmental sustainability shares, and you know,

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Speaker 2: I think it's important. I had always complied with the

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Speaker 2: Ministerial Code of Conduct of the legislatation.

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Speaker 1: Look, I'll get to that in just a moment, but

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Speaker 1: I'm keen to find out did you make any profit

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Speaker 1: from them?

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Speaker 2: Look? Those shares were sold for you know, for that

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Speaker 2: now they would be worth in today's exchange rate four

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Speaker 2: hundred and sixty dollars. So no, I didn't profit off

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Speaker 2: those shares.

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Speaker 1: So if you didn't buy them for profit, but you

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Speaker 1: did buy them through financial advice, I'm like, what exactly

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Speaker 1: is the reason that you purchased them? Were you wanting

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Speaker 1: to support met cash?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Look, acquiring shares and working with financial planners and

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Speaker 2: accountants is a diversification of my financial portfoil.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but I guess you know, for most normal people

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Speaker 1: out there listening this morning, there are others that would

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Speaker 1: have shares. I know that, you know, I'm family members

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Speaker 1: of mine have shares. The main reason that you usually

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Speaker 1: buy them is a because you want to support a

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Speaker 1: company or be because you think they're going to make profit.

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Speaker 2: Ye and Katie, as I said, being based on a

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Speaker 2: relationship and conversation that I had with my financial planner

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Speaker 2: and accountants.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so did you at any point think that this

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Speaker 1: may not be an appropriate investment given the fact that

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Speaker 1: met Cash supplies both groceries and alcohol to NT communities

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Speaker 1: and you were the Minister for town camps.

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Speaker 2: Look, met cash is a major national supplier of groceries,

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Speaker 2: hardware and liquor. It supplies products right across the country,

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Speaker 2: not just Central Australia. And as I've said, I've always

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Speaker 2: complied with the ministeri or code of conduct and the

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Speaker 2: legislative disclosure of interest.

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Speaker 1: But did you at any point think that it might

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Speaker 1: not be appropriate? I mean, you are the Minister for

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Speaker 1: town camps, you were at the time, and we are

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Speaker 1: talking about a supplier to those town camps.

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Speaker 2: Look, Katie, it's a supplier to grocery, hardware and other

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Speaker 2: outlets throughout the country.

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Speaker 1: Including town camps, including town camps, and they did have

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Speaker 1: that contract from what I understand.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure what contact your referralal.

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Speaker 1: Contracts within communities to supply groceries. So what I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to ascertain again is you know, did you at any

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Speaker 1: point think, hang on a sec this might not be

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Speaker 1: an appropriate transaction to make. Maybe I need to look

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Speaker 1: at Shees in another organization or another company.

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Speaker 2: Just to be clear, Katie, there are no supermarkets or

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Speaker 2: bottle shops in town camps. And I have always complied

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Speaker 2: with the Ministerial Code of Conduct and the disclosure of

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Speaker 2: interest and I will always continue. I'll always continue to

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Speaker 2: ensure that I have disclosed where there is a perceived

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Speaker 2: or possible.

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Speaker 1: Do you accept then do you accept then that there

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Speaker 1: is a perceived conflict of interest?

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Speaker 2: As I said, Katie, I have always disclosed, whether it's

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Speaker 2: in a meeting with my colleagues, whether it's in a

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Speaker 2: meeting with a stakehold or interest group across the territory,

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Speaker 2: where there is any possible or potential or right conflict.

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Speaker 1: Well, so with that on that, did you declare this

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Speaker 1: conflict of interest or a perceived conflict of interest when

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Speaker 1: you were having those discussions about the stronger Futures legislation

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Speaker 1: with your cabinet colleagues.

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Speaker 2: Again, Katie, just to be clear for everyone chuned in,

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Speaker 2: no decision was made by the Northern Territory government on

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Speaker 2: stronger futures because that's not territory law. That was a

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Speaker 2: decision that the Morrison government decided to let lapse.

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Speaker 1: There was definitely calls though at the time. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we all know what happened a year ago in Alice Springs.

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Speaker 1: We all understand exactly what had gone on. We understand

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Speaker 1: that there's both levels of Parliament obviously involved in that.

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Speaker 1: But the question here is did you tell your cabinet

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Speaker 1: colleagues that you had those shear is when you were

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Speaker 1: at the table discussing these policies.

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Speaker 2: Katie, no decision was made by the Northern Territory government

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Speaker 2: around Stronger.

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Speaker 1: Futures, Okay, Deputy Chief Finister, it's a yes no question.

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Speaker 1: Did you tell your cabinet colleagues, Katie.

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Speaker 2: I've always disclosed where there is a potential, perceived or real.

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Speaker 1: Conflict, So when you were having meetings, So when you

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Speaker 1: were having those cabinet discussions about the Stronger Futures legislation,

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Speaker 1: you said, hey, guys, I think it's appropriate that you

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Speaker 1: know that I have these shares.

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Speaker 2: In met cash and Katie, my position yes or not,

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Speaker 2: stronger future, yes or not in the Northern Territory.

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Speaker 1: Deputy Chief Finister, yes or no?

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Speaker 2: And I don't support race based policy.

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Speaker 1: So yes, it's a yes or no question. Did you

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Speaker 1: disclose it to your cabinet colleagues, Katie, to their faces?

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Speaker 1: Did you disclose it?

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Speaker 2: I'm going to follow the law and not breach the

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Speaker 2: cabinet confidentiality processes that are in place, but I will

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Speaker 2: say to you and everyone listening right now that at

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Speaker 2: no time was I in a decision making position on

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Speaker 2: alcohol policy.

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Speaker 1: So there was no discussions by cabinet about alcohol policy

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Speaker 1: when the Stronger Futures legislation was ending.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Katie, if you just let me fintry, I

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Speaker 2: had letting.

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Speaker 1: You finished, But you're not answering the question. So it's

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Speaker 1: a yes or no question. Were their discussions by cabinet

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Speaker 1: about the Stronger Futures legislation ending? And did you disclose

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Speaker 1: to your colleagues that you had these shares? It is

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Speaker 1: absolutely fundamental in terms of people being able to understand

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Speaker 1: whether you've crossed the line here or not.

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Speaker 2: And Katie, I will not break a cabinet confidentiality, but

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Speaker 2: I will say to you there are always conversations in

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Speaker 2: and around with my colleagues and with the community, and

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Speaker 2: I always absolutely declare where there are perceived both real

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Speaker 2: and possible conclentce the.

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Speaker 1: Chief Minister said yesterday. The Chief Minister said yesterday she

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Speaker 1: couldn't recall you declaring it when cabinet had those discussions.

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Speaker 2: And Katie, the Chief Minister has certainly been out talking

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Speaker 2: to people about this. Again. Two years ago the Chief

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Speaker 2: Minister was a very different person. But again, I can

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Speaker 2: absolutely stay hand on heart. I have always complied with

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Speaker 2: the rules and I have always disclosed where there is

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Speaker 2: a positible.

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Speaker 1: So she said yesterday that she couldn't recall you declaring

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Speaker 1: it when cabinet had those discussions. So did you remove

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Speaker 1: yourself from those talks?

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Speaker 2: Again, Katie, I can't speak for anyone else, but I

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Speaker 2: can say I've always disclosed and declared where there is

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Speaker 2: a possible, perceived or real confidence.

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Speaker 1: So did you break the nt Cabinet Code of Conduct? No,

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Speaker 1: So you don't believe that you've broken that code of

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Speaker 1: conduct in any way.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 1: Look, I want to be really upfront here. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think four hundred dollars worth of shares it's not

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Speaker 1: much money, you know, it's not a huge amount of shares.

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Speaker 1: Some would argue that it's not going to cloud your

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Speaker 1: judgment in terms of making those decisions. But the point

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Speaker 1: here is that you have to disclose that to your

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Speaker 1: colleagues when you are making decisions in this space and

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Speaker 1: the ending of that stronger Futures legislation, many would argue,

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Speaker 1: you know that what we had seen in Alice Springsten

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Speaker 1: at the beginning of last year was absolute carnage and

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Speaker 1: there was you know, there was real heartbreak. We had

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Speaker 1: people like Congress coming out saying that it wasn't the

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Speaker 1: right move to make. So can you understand why people

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Speaker 1: are really questioning your judgment here and whether you've done

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Speaker 1: the wrong thing, Katie.

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Speaker 2: I think it's really important to be really clear again,

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Speaker 2: my position on stronger futures laws in the Northern Territory

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Speaker 2: has been on the record for many years and I

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Speaker 2: don't support race based policies or laws. We as a

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Speaker 2: government have introduced restrictions and they have been not based

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Speaker 2: on race, and I have always declared where there is

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Speaker 2: a possible perceived real conflict and I'll absolutely continue to

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Speaker 2: do that into the future as well.

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Speaker 1: Well. Again, I'll say part of the issue here is

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Speaker 1: that you have these shares. You're part of the decision

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Speaker 1: making process when it comes to alcohol policy, and you

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Speaker 1: have the perceived potential to benefit financially from those decisions.

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Speaker 1: So do you see the concern here?

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Speaker 2: Okay, again, it's important to acknowledge I no longer have

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Speaker 2: those shares, but you.

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Speaker 1: Had them when those decisions were being made.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, But I'm just confirming you said that I had

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Speaker 2: still had the shares. I no longer own those shares.

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Speaker 2: I sold those when I took on the role as

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Speaker 2: the Deputy Chief Minister to ensure that if I had

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Speaker 2: to act on behalf of another minister, or if I

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Speaker 2: had to do the functions of another minister, that I

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Speaker 2: would not be in a position that put my team

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Speaker 2: or the government in a perceived, possible or a real conflict.

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Speaker 2: And that's why I made that decision.

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Speaker 1: Why did you want to wait until you became the

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Speaker 1: Deputy Chief Minister to do that? Why could you only

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Speaker 1: see that that wasn't the right thing to do once

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Speaker 1: taking on the Deputy Chief ministership.

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Speaker 2: Because as the Deputy Chief Minister, if a minister is

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Speaker 2: on leave or has to travel into state for ministerial

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Speaker 2: business and decisions may have to be made in the territory,

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Speaker 2: we may need to act on their behalf and at

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Speaker 2: times I might have been required to do that where

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Speaker 2: I'd have to be in a position that would make

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Speaker 2: a direct decision, because previously I have at no time

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Speaker 2: been in a position decision making position on alcohol holicy

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Speaker 2: or licensing in the territory that was held previously by

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Speaker 2: Natasha Files the Northern Territories alcohol licensing and alcohol policy.

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Speaker 1: Let's step aside then from the alcohol issue for a moment.

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Speaker 1: Can you see why people would be questioning your judgment

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Speaker 1: when you've purchased shares in a company that you knew

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Speaker 1: well was selling food into town camps when you were

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Speaker 1: the minister for town camps. Can you see how some

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Speaker 1: people would be questioning that judgment why you chose those shares, Katie.

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Speaker 2: I'm just being clear again. Met cash is a wholesaler.

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Speaker 2: It supplies foods to yep.

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Speaker 1: We all understand that, but I.

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Speaker 2: Guess around the town. So it's not just I just

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Speaker 2: want to be really clear here. This is not and

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Speaker 2: should not be about Aboriginal people living in town camps.

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Speaker 2: This is about supplying food to corner stores who may

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Speaker 2: have a contract with met Cash. It is not directly

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Speaker 2: about or should not just be about Aboriginal people.

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Speaker 1: I mean, do you admit though, that you've made an

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Speaker 1: error of judgment.

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Speaker 2: No, because I have fully and complied with the Ministerial

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Speaker 2: Code of Conduct and the LEGISLT Assembly's disclosures of interests.

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Speaker 2: This has been on the public record for over a

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Speaker 2: year and a half, Katie, where it's been publicly available

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Speaker 2: for people.

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Speaker 1: I mean you said though that you don't want to

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Speaker 1: break the law and each cabinet in confidence by saying

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Speaker 1: whether you disclose these shares to your cabinet colleagues when

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Speaker 1: these discussions were happening. I mean the Chief Minister said

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Speaker 1: yesterday that she doesn't recall you making those disclosures. So

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Speaker 1: are you accusing her of breaking the law.

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Speaker 2: No, not at all.

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Speaker 1: Well why can't you just say yes or no whether

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Speaker 1: you did or didn't.

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Speaker 2: Because Katie, I have answered your question. I disclosed it

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Speaker 2: every opportunity where I believe there might be a perceived,

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Speaker 2: possible or real conflict.

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Speaker 1: So again I will ask you said to your cabinet colleagues,

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Speaker 1: I've got shares in met cash. I need to remove

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Speaker 1: myself from this discussion.

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Speaker 2: Again, Katie, the Stronger Futures laws were not Northern Territory

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Speaker 2: government laws, so there was no no.

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Speaker 1: That but there were still decisions being made in this space.

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Speaker 1: I think it's disingenuous to say that there wasn't because

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Speaker 1: you know, at the end of the day, like we

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Speaker 1: all know that the Northern Territory Government had to still

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Speaker 1: be having those discussions. You guys knew that they Stronger

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Speaker 1: Futures legislation was coming to an end.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the Northern Territory Government had brought forward by the

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Speaker 2: Alcohol Policy Minister reform pieces. I always acknowledge and notify

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Speaker 2: my colleagues when I make changes to the Members' Interests declarations,

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Speaker 2: and I've done that and I'll continue to do that

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Speaker 2: and it will continue to be publicly available.

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Speaker 1: What about when you were talking to industry about the

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Speaker 1: issue you know about, like the ending of stronger futures legislation.

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Speaker 1: Is it something that you know Is it something that

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Speaker 1: you've been really open and upfront about that you had those.

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Speaker 2: Shares Again, Katie, it's been open to everyone in the community.

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Speaker 2: That gets tabled in Parliament and people can absolutely talk

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Speaker 2: about it. The reason we're talking about it now is

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Speaker 2: because people have seen that on the members Interests and

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Speaker 2: raised itself.

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Speaker 1: Well, if you didn't, if you didn't become the deputy

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Speaker 1: the deputy Chief Minister, would you still have those shares?

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Speaker 2: No? Because Katie, I think it's very clear the Chief

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Speaker 2: Minister Lawla made a decision for all cabinet ministers to

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Speaker 2: divest of any shares and she stood up at the

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Speaker 2: review into MINISTERI or conflicts of interesting Was it directive?

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Speaker 1: Was it a directive of Eva Laula?

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Speaker 2: Pardon?

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Speaker 1: Was it a directive of Eva Laula that that cabinet

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Speaker 1: members had to take a look at their shares portfolio

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Speaker 1: and have a look at what they needed to divest their.

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Speaker 2: Chief Minister had spoken to everyone around in cabinet divesting

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Speaker 2: of share She made that public commitment when she took

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Speaker 2: on the role at her first press conference that that

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Speaker 2: was happening.

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Speaker 1: So I guess another thing that people are really going

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Speaker 1: to be questioning this morning is why do you think

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Speaker 1: that this situation is different to the one that Natasha

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Speaker 1: Files was in.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I think the situation is very different. My

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Speaker 2: shares were publicly disclosed on the members entry and that

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Speaker 2: has been publicly available for everyone. I think the former

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Speaker 2: Chief Minister had an unfortunate area where those shares had

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Speaker 2: been divested of a company and that hadn't been put

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Speaker 2: on the members' interests, so it's a very different situation, Katie.

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Speaker 1: So you think it's fine then to have shares, you know, like,

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Speaker 1: you don't see that there's a big concern here.

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Speaker 2: Look, I think the question that we're all looking at

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Speaker 2: now is where the politician should have interests and that's

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Speaker 2: work that the Chief Minister has announced in terms of

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Speaker 2: that review that's being undertaken.

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Speaker 1: Deputy Chief Minister, do you think you can survive this week?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've still got a lot to deliver and give

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Speaker 2: to the Northern Territory. I think that again, this is

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Speaker 2: something that I have complied with the law and the

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Speaker 2: Ministerial Code of Conduct and the Legislative Assembly has been disclosed.

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Speaker 2: It's been open and accountable for everyone to see. I've

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Speaker 2: hidden nothing.

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Speaker 1: Well, the big thing that people are still messaging in

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Speaker 1: a this morning is did you, specifically, I mean, did

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Speaker 1: you disclose this to your cabinet colleagues when the discussions

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Speaker 1: were being had around the table about the ending of

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Speaker 1: the Stronger Future's legislation? That is, that's what everyone's messaging

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Speaker 1: in about this morning.

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Speaker 2: Certainly, and as I said, Katie, I always have declared

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Speaker 2: possible perceived in real conflicts. And Katie, you will know

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Speaker 2: you worked for a labor government that is cabinet and confidence.

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Speaker 2: We can't certainly tell everyone what's being discussed there, but

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Speaker 2: I can say no.

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Speaker 1: One's expecting you to. No one's expecting you to reveal policy,

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Speaker 1: No one's expecting you to reveal you know, elements of

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Speaker 1: exactly what's said in there. But what people are wanting

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Speaker 1: to know is did you disclose that you had these

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Speaker 1: shares to your cabinet colleagues when these really serious discussions

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Speaker 1: were being had?

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Speaker 2: And again, Katie, I always disclose where there is so

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Speaker 2: yes you did and real conflicts. I've answered your question

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Speaker 2: kk K.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes you did. You did openly.

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Speaker 2: Say that I have always declared where there is possible,

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Speaker 2: perceived and real conflict.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think then the Chief Minister said yesterday

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Speaker 1: that she does not recall you doing so well. Katie.

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Speaker 2: You know, over two years ago these shares we're talking

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Speaker 2: about having acquired, we had a Chief Minister who was

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Speaker 2: a different person. Lots of things get discussed regularly in cabinet,

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Speaker 2: as you I can imagine, but I'm saying, absolutely, hand

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Speaker 2: on heart, I absolutely declare where there is any real,

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Speaker 2: perceived or possible conflict, and I absolutely can say that

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Speaker 2: I'll continue to do that into the future.

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Speaker 1: Chancey Paig, the calls are mounting today for you to resign,

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Speaker 1: Will you or are you going to dig your heels in?

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Speaker 2: Look, Katie, I've certainly got a lot to give the

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Speaker 2: Northern Territory and I've got a lot to do to

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Speaker 2: represent the hard working people in the remote electorate of Guadja.

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Speaker 1: Paik the Deputy Chief Minister. I appreciate your time this morning,

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Speaker 1: appreciate you fronting my questions, and I believe we've got

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Speaker 1: you on the show on the week that was on Friday.

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Speaker 2: No worries, Thanks Katie, Thank you,