1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:02,800 Speaker 1: How would you feel if you're in the middle of 2 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: a conversation and I suddenly started talking to someone else 3 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:10,479 Speaker 1: from across the room. Well, that's exactly what we're doing 4 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: when we let our phones or laptops drag us down 5 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: the multitasking rabbit hole. Harvard professor Francis Frye and leadership 6 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:25,240 Speaker 1: expert Ann Morris are hyper vigilant of their device usage, 7 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: and this makes sense for two people who were devoted 8 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: to productivity. But that's not the end of the story. 9 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: Francis and Anne are also devoted to connections. They write 10 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: constantly about the importance of trust and empathy, and neither 11 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,240 Speaker 1: of those things can flourish if we or the people 12 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: that we're talking to are distracted. So how do Francis 13 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: and Ann manage their technology for both productivity and empathy. 14 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: My name is doctor Amann. I'm an organizational psychologist and 15 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and this is 16 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,680 Speaker 1: how I work a show about how to help you 17 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:13,759 Speaker 1: do your best work. On today's My Favorite Tip episode, 18 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: we go back to an interview from the past and 19 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: I pick out my favorite tip from the interview. In 20 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: today's show, I speak with Francis and ad about how 21 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: they think about their own approach to devices, technology and 22 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: having clear boundaries. 23 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 2: These devices are so seductive and they are meant to 24 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 2: be and so I think putting up strict boundaries. For me, 25 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 2: putting up strict boundaries is the only way to go. 26 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 2: So I never bring it into our bedroom. I never 27 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 2: bring it onto the floor where I'm trying to sleep. 28 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 2: You know meals. You know, all devices have to be 29 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 2: away from the table for me to be present. I 30 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 2: think I've removed apps from my phone that are more distracting. 31 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 2: I just think that the it's that we are. I 32 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 2: am in the phase of a relationship with my devices 33 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 2: where prohibition is the only thing that is working right now. 34 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 2: But other people are at a healthier place with. 35 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 3: Them and and for me. I so I don't use 36 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 3: my devices very often at all. So I'm never on 37 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 3: zoom and on something else. I'm I'm always there. I 38 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 3: check my email at most two times a day, but 39 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 3: probably once every other day. Is a more natural rhythm. 40 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 3: So I and I learned that lesson from the late 41 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 3: Clay Christiansen when I once asked him, how are you 42 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 3: so much more productive than everyone else? And he said, 43 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 3: I check email twice a day so I'm not distracted 44 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:51,959 Speaker 3: by it. And then I made the maybe like five 45 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 3: years ago, I made the parallel to consumption of news 46 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:58,959 Speaker 3: and the intra day consumption of news. I haven't seen 47 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 3: that be helpful to anyone, and so I no longer 48 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 3: do intraday consumption of news. I would for a while 49 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 3: I had to go cold turkey so and would just 50 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 3: narrate whatever it was important. 51 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 2: The capital is being attacked Francis by. 52 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 3: Our own people, and now I can check in. But 53 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 3: I don't check the news every day, and I certainly 54 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 3: don't do it intra day. Those were that's for me. 55 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 3: I've never been very late to the social media landscape, 56 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 3: and so I don't have any kind of They're designed 57 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 3: to be addictive, but I've never gotten that far up 58 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 3: the participation curve for that to be an issue. But 59 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 3: I like to have total blockout of those things so 60 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 3: that I can focus on either my work, the television 61 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 3: program I want to watch. Like, I consume a lot 62 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 3: of alternate things to spark, to spark my thinking, but 63 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 3: it's almost never it's almost never the traditional way of 64 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 3: doing it, And you'd think that I was hard to 65 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 3: get in contact with I'm not that hard. It turns 66 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 3: out we're not checking email more than once a day 67 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:17,919 Speaker 3: because we need to be in people need to be 68 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 3: in contact with us. It's something much deeper than that, 69 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 3: because I'm plenty easy to be in contact with. 70 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:25,280 Speaker 2: No, we're just trying to find out am I loved 71 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 2: or am I not loved? What about now? I am 72 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 2: I love? 73 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 1: Now? 74 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 3: I go downstairs and ask my wife, you. 75 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 2: Have a wonder. It's been super provocative in the best 76 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 2: sense for me to watch you set these boundaries. I'm 77 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 2: on the other end of the spectrum. I'm not as 78 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,280 Speaker 2: far gone as some of the people, some of our 79 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 2: loved ones, but but I think you are. You have 80 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 2: you have said an excellent and challenging model for me. 81 00:04:55,520 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 2: I was definitely over confident in my multitasking. I thought 82 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 2: it did not come at a price, and even small 83 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 2: experiments in scaling that back had pretty pretty profound payoffs. 84 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 2: And so that that's what has spurred me to come 85 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 2: closer to the light where I see you standing. 86 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:16,679 Speaker 3: I'm as productive as I'll ever be because I've trimmed 87 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:20,559 Speaker 3: out all of the multitasking. So this is it. 88 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: It doesn't get any to go in? So and what 89 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:29,119 Speaker 1: do you do with your emailment? Because that it's exactly that. 90 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 1: It's like checking to say, does anyone love me right? Now? Right? 91 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 2: And then do the right people love me right? If 92 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 2: you get a certain if you hit scale, then you 93 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 2: got to go then you got to go to quality. 94 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 2: It's never ending. So I mean, you know what is 95 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 2: the structural solution? That's hard work? You know, that's that 96 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 2: is the hard work around Why am I seeking external 97 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 2: affirmation which the world has turned into all of these 98 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 2: incredible devices. But I think if you if you don't 99 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 2: want to do, if you don't want to work that hard, 100 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 2: then you're then you're in setting up setting up boundaries, uh, 101 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:09,599 Speaker 2: and running experiments on how. 102 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 3: You're great at running the experiments and. 103 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 2: Learning like let's try like how does it feel to 104 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 2: take Twitter off my phone? That feels that feels good? 105 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 2: That feels good? 106 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: Uh? 107 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 2: And And and that's I mean, we in the work 108 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 2: that we do with individuals and organizations, a lot of 109 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:32,039 Speaker 2: it is encouraging people to run just run experiments on 110 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,679 Speaker 2: their lives, on their leadership, on their ways of working, 111 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 2: you know, just to bring that kind of can do, joyful, curious, 112 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 2: energy to all aspects of their lives and our relationships 113 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:47,919 Speaker 2: with our device. For some of us, it's the most devoted, 114 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 2: meaningful relationship that we have Right now. We're sleeping with 115 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 2: our devices, we're caressing them, we're checking in with them constantly, 116 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 2: and I think that you know, there's a lot of 117 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 2: great experimentation that can be done around that relationship. 118 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this excerpt from my chat with frances 119 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: and And, you might want to listen to the full interview, 120 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: which you can find a link to in the show notes. 121 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: If you're looking for more tips to improve the way 122 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: that you work, I write a short fortnightly newsletter that 123 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 1: contains three cool things that I've discovered that helped me 124 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: work better, ranging from software and gadgets that I'm loving 125 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: through to interesting research findings. You can sign up for 126 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: that at Howiwork dot com. That's how I Work dot co. 127 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing part of your day with me 128 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: by listening to How I Work. If you're keen for 129 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: more tips on how to work better, connect with me 130 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: via LinkedIn or Instagram. I'm very easy to find. Just 131 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: search for Amantha Imba. How I Work was recorded on 132 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: the traditional land of the warrangery people part of the 133 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: cool and nation. I am so grateful for being able 134 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: to work and live on this beautiful land and I 135 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 1: want to pay my respects to elders, past, present and emerging. 136 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: How I work is produced by inventing with production support 137 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: from Dead Set Studios. And thank you to Martin Nimba 138 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,559 Speaker 1: who did the audio mix and makes everything sound better 139 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: than it would have otherwise.