WEBVTT - Does Australia have a cult problem?

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<v Speaker 1>Already and this is the daily This is the Daily os.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh now it makes sense.

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<v Speaker 2>Good morning and welcome to the Daily Ohs. It's Monday,

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<v Speaker 2>the seventeenth of November. I'm Elliot Lourie.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm Emma Gillespie.

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<v Speaker 2>When we talk about colts, we tend to picture the

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<v Speaker 2>classic images a doomsday group in the desert or a

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<v Speaker 2>fringe religious sect that feels totally disconnected from everyday life.

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<v Speaker 2>But here in Australia, cults are a current and pressing

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<v Speaker 2>issue in our communities, so much so that the Victorian

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<v Speaker 2>Parliament has now launched an inquiry into colts and other

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<v Speaker 2>coercive groups. In today's podcast, you're going to hear from

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<v Speaker 2>Claire Heath MacIvor. She established an advocacy organization called the

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<v Speaker 2>Survivors of Coercive Cults and High Control Groups after she

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<v Speaker 2>left behind the life she was born into a high

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<v Speaker 2>control group in Eastern Victoria.

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<v Speaker 3>Elliott, this is such a fascinating topic to be talking

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<v Speaker 3>about today, and I think you really nailed it with

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<v Speaker 3>your intro when you said that cults can feel like

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<v Speaker 3>this kind of really far away concept or the stuff

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<v Speaker 3>of true crime podcasts and docos, But it is a

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<v Speaker 3>very real issue currently being discussed in Victoria, and Claire

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<v Speaker 3>is one of many former cult members who are now

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<v Speaker 3>working with the Victorian government as it tries to understand

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<v Speaker 3>more about these groups. Before we jump into her story,

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<v Speaker 3>can you tell us a little bit more about this

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<v Speaker 3>parliamentary inquiry?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, for sure. So earlier this year, the Victorian government

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<v Speaker 2>announced that they'd be holding their own inquiry into cults

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<v Speaker 2>and high control groups. It's important to note that those

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<v Speaker 2>terms are kind of used interchangeably because cults have a

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<v Speaker 2>very intense stigma attached to them, so they try to

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<v Speaker 2>word it a little bit differently sometimes, but we will

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<v Speaker 2>hear throughout the podcast those two terms kind of used

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<v Speaker 2>in the same way. But basically, an inquiry gives the

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<v Speaker 2>public an opportunity to have input into issues that are

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<v Speaker 2>before parliament. This particular inquiry has already heard from several

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<v Speaker 2>survivors as well as advocacy groups, trauma experts, and religious groups.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, and why is it happening right now? Why has

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<v Speaker 3>the government in Victoria decided that now's the time.

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<v Speaker 2>Look, there's a lot of problems that they're trying to

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<v Speaker 2>solve here. One of the main ones is that we

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<v Speaker 2>don't have a legal definition here in Australia for what

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<v Speaker 2>a cult is.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>On top of that, they're also trying to fill in

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<v Speaker 2>the gaps that are in existing legislation to help better

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<v Speaker 2>crack down on cult activity in the state. But the

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<v Speaker 2>reason that they're holding the inquiry right now is off

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<v Speaker 2>the back of a massive surgeon reports of high control

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<v Speaker 2>groups operating across the state. One of the more high

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<v Speaker 2>profile cases that helped trigger the inquiry came from the

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<v Speaker 2>Geelong Revival Center, which is a Pentecostal doomsday church based

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<v Speaker 2>just outside of Melbourne. We've also seen a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>cases of young people being targeted by cults. The inquiry

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<v Speaker 2>has actually heard that universities and shopping centers have become

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<v Speaker 2>hunting grounds for these sorts of recruiters for these cults,

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<v Speaker 2>and this month we've actually seen leaders from the state's

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<v Speaker 2>universities appear before the inquiry to try and help the

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<v Speaker 2>government put together a response.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, the way that this has impacted young people, the

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<v Speaker 3>university recruitment stuff that has emerged is super fascinating. That

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<v Speaker 3>gives us a bit of a picture of the inquiry itself.

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<v Speaker 3>But today we're going to hear from Claire, Can you

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<v Speaker 3>tell us a little bit more about her?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So Claire was born and raised in the City

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<v Speaker 2>Builders Church, which is also in Victoria. Her father is

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<v Speaker 2>actually a pastor in the church, and Claire has been

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<v Speaker 2>ostracized from her entire family and also her former community

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<v Speaker 2>for almost a decade now. She told me about how

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<v Speaker 2>hard it's been to adapt to a new life on

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<v Speaker 2>the outside, as well as some stories from her experience that,

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<v Speaker 2>while shocking, are actually pretty commonplace amongst cult survivors. You'll

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<v Speaker 2>hear more from her in just a second, but I

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<v Speaker 2>do want to preface this interview with just a quick

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<v Speaker 2>content warning because we do discuss various forms of abuse

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<v Speaker 2>throughout the chat. If you're not feeling up to it,

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<v Speaker 2>then maybe come back for tomorrow's deep dive, but without

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<v Speaker 2>further ado. Claire, thank you for joining the Dai they Os.

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<v Speaker 1>It's my pleasure.

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<v Speaker 2>So I want to start off really broad today. We're

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<v Speaker 2>talking about cults for anyone that's maybe not exactly sure

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<v Speaker 2>what is a cult.

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<v Speaker 1>A cult can be any group, essentially, any group that

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<v Speaker 1>has these combination of characteristics. Usually a cult has a

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<v Speaker 1>central charismatic leader, usually a bit narcissistic who commands a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of obedience and a lot of adoration and adulation.

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<v Speaker 1>A cult usually has a transcendent belief system, so the

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<v Speaker 1>one kind of higher truth or the one path to enlightenment.

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<v Speaker 1>They also have systems of influence by which people are

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<v Speaker 1>indoctrinated and brought into the group. Often these are quite

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<v Speaker 1>deceptive from the outset and get more serious as you

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<v Speaker 1>come into the group, and they have systems of control

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<v Speaker 1>once you're in. A lot of people think that cults

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<v Speaker 1>are just religious or pseudo rel We think of sort

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<v Speaker 1>of white doomsday cults, but it's just not the case.

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<v Speaker 1>Cults can be any type of group. There's yoga cults,

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<v Speaker 1>there's Buddhist cults, hard labor cults, there's you know, multi

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<v Speaker 1>level marketing cults. Even it can be all sorts of groups.

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<v Speaker 2>And you, yourself, are a survivor of a cult. Can

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<v Speaker 2>you tell us a little bit about your experience?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, sure, my group. You know, it's still uncomfortable to

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<v Speaker 1>call it a cult, even though i've you know, it

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<v Speaker 1>definitely fits the definition, but it was it's a Christian

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<v Speaker 1>church that exists further out on the fundamentalist edge. We're

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<v Speaker 1>a dominionist group, so We believed that God had sent

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<v Speaker 1>us to take dominion of the seven domains of society.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a common evangelical doctrine, but the control and an

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<v Speaker 1>influenced methodology within that group is what makes it quite

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<v Speaker 1>quite a standout in that area. We were very, very

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<v Speaker 1>interested in politics and had concentrated efforts to infiltrate particularly

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<v Speaker 1>the National Party and the Liberal Party in Victoria. Were

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<v Speaker 1>also quite well known for our attitudes towards LGBT people.

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<v Speaker 1>My ex husband is a gay conversion therapy survivor, and

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<v Speaker 1>even though gay conversion therapy is outlawed, you know, in

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of places, it's broader than just therapy. It's

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<v Speaker 1>actually gay conversion practices, sexual orientation or gender identity change efforts.

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<v Speaker 1>There can be anything from prayer and exorcism to homophobia

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<v Speaker 1>from behind the pulpit to all sorts of things. And

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<v Speaker 1>we were in an arranged marriage, you know, some of

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<v Speaker 1>these ideas are quite deeply held within these groups. So yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>so that was our group, still very involved in politics,

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<v Speaker 1>and my parents actually run that group and I am

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<v Speaker 1>sadly estranged from them and my four siblings.

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<v Speaker 2>At what point in your experience did you start to

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<v Speaker 2>sort of have questions or thoughts about the fact that

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<v Speaker 2>you may be in a cult. What was the moment

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<v Speaker 2>that sort of made you realize.

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<v Speaker 1>So there had been moments over the years, probably from

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<v Speaker 1>when I was around sixteen, that I was visited by

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<v Speaker 1>that discomfort, especially when it came to abuse that I

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<v Speaker 1>suffered or that other people suffered, and the way that

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<v Speaker 1>that was handled that made me feel really really uncomfortable.

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<v Speaker 1>I was aware that people in the community felt it

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<v Speaker 1>was a cult, which was also deeply uncomfortable. But it

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't until the eleventh of November twenty fifteen, when I

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<v Speaker 1>found out I was pregnant with our first child, but

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<v Speaker 1>it's actually our fifth pregnancy that my husband had a

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<v Speaker 1>fight with my dad and thus began the process of

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<v Speaker 1>our shunning. And it's a deeply painful memory. But also

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<v Speaker 1>I just don't think that I would have been able

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<v Speaker 1>to carry that pregnancy to term if I had been

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<v Speaker 1>in that high stress environment. Shunning isn't fun, but at

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<v Speaker 1>least I knew I wasn't bringing a child into that world.

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<v Speaker 2>And we're talking today because the Victorian Parliament has launched

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<v Speaker 2>a inquiry into colts. Yes, why do you think they've

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<v Speaker 2>launched it. Now that is.

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<v Speaker 1>A loaded question. I mean, I can only assume to

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<v Speaker 1>me like I've had my hearing in front of the inquiry,

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<v Speaker 1>and I've found the committee to be really deeply invested

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<v Speaker 1>in this, and that seems to not be a partisan thing.

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<v Speaker 1>It seems to be right across the board, Labor, Liberal Nationals,

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<v Speaker 1>for which I'm deeply thankful. A couple of years ago,

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<v Speaker 1>one of the goats of Australian analysm Richard Baker, started

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<v Speaker 1>working with survivors of the Geelong Revival Center and he

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<v Speaker 1>started working with them on a podcast series called Secrets

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<v Speaker 1>We Keep Pray Harder. But it actually got benched for

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<v Speaker 1>a few years because some members of the Geelong Revival

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<v Speaker 1>Center leadership were actually up on charges related to child essay,

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<v Speaker 1>so that had to wait. And then when it was launched,

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<v Speaker 1>Ryan and Catherine Cary, who led the charge on that podcast,

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<v Speaker 1>they were working with Chris Cousins, who is an MP

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<v Speaker 1>out in that area, and Chris really just deeply cared

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<v Speaker 1>about this so helped them get an inquiry up. And

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<v Speaker 1>the data that's come out is so compelling in terms

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<v Speaker 1>of like ninety five point nine percent of respondents on

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<v Speaker 1>the survey said that they'd suffered psychological harm, something like

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<v Speaker 1>eighty five percent said limitations on personal freedom and fifty

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<v Speaker 1>two point four four percent said physical or essay abuse.

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<v Speaker 2>You mentioned a survey conducted by the Parliamentary Inquiry which

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<v Speaker 2>revealed some trends about cult survivors and their experiences there.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the more interesting ones that I was looking

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<v Speaker 2>at was how people are recruited into cults. Can you

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<v Speaker 2>maybe talk us through what are some of the more

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<v Speaker 2>common practices?

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, okay, this is really interesting because it seems to

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<v Speaker 1>be the same right across the board. I think a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of people think, oh, you know, there's there's kids

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<v Speaker 1>that are born into cults and it's it's you know,

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<v Speaker 1>child abuse is rife, and we need to absolutely take

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<v Speaker 1>that seriously. But there's this thought that, you know, whatever

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<v Speaker 1>consenting adults do when a cult is up to them.

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<v Speaker 1>The thing is nobody consents to join a cult. You

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<v Speaker 1>don't rock up and somebody hands you a flyer and says, hey,

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<v Speaker 1>welcome to this cult. We're going to control every aspect

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<v Speaker 1>of your life. It's just not how it happens. What

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<v Speaker 1>will happen instead is you'll be invited to you know,

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<v Speaker 1>a social gathering, you might be befriended by one or two extras.

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<v Speaker 1>They might start to love bomb you, which is intoxicating.

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<v Speaker 1>But you'll be invited to then do courses and it

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<v Speaker 1>might seem really innocuous. It might be a course about

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<v Speaker 1>you know, authentic manhood or masculinity, and the MANI sphere

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<v Speaker 1>is a huge concern with regard to that. It might

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<v Speaker 1>be a course about you know, women's empowerment or politics

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<v Speaker 1>or philosophy. It might be about recovery from abuse. And

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<v Speaker 1>then you start sharing your more intimate secrets with this mentor,

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<v Speaker 1>and then all of a sudden there's emotional buy in

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<v Speaker 1>and then the energy that you'll be putting into the

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<v Speaker 1>group through volunteer work or more courses or stuff like that.

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<v Speaker 1>It starts to increase as your connection to your friends

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<v Speaker 1>and families decrease. And then you'll have a moment where

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<v Speaker 1>it might be like, Oh, your friends and your family

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<v Speaker 1>don't really understand where your real family where your real friends.

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<v Speaker 1>This is the one truth. Hey, why don't you invest

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<v Speaker 1>in this opportunity or invest in this course, or invest

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<v Speaker 1>in whatever. So nobody consents to join a cult. They

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<v Speaker 1>consent to go to a barbecue or go to a

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<v Speaker 1>fun group, or go to a personal development course, and

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<v Speaker 1>it's like boiling that frog degree by degree, and it's

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<v Speaker 1>not until the water's boiling and it's too late to

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<v Speaker 1>escape easily that people usually realize they're in a cult.

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<v Speaker 3>We'll be right back with more of today's deep dive

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<v Speaker 3>right after this.

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<v Speaker 2>And there's a bit of a running joke, for lack

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<v Speaker 2>of a better term, about this one area in Melbourne

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<v Speaker 2>CBD Melbourne Central or Emporium where people say, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>if someone comes up to you and as being nice

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<v Speaker 2>to you right away, because they're likely recruiting you into

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<v Speaker 2>a cult. Yes, why do you think that's taking place there?

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<v Speaker 2>And is there a certain target that these cults are

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<v Speaker 2>going after?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I do know that the Shinchyanji cult, which is

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<v Speaker 1>particularly insidious, is recruiting on university campuses a lot. You

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<v Speaker 1>often see street preachers down at the Burke Street mall

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<v Speaker 1>and intersections like that. Essentially, cults are looking for people

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<v Speaker 1>who are in the crosshairs of big transitions in life,

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<v Speaker 1>whether that is adolescence where the apron strings are loosening,

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<v Speaker 1>you're more interested in your friend group, You're trying to

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<v Speaker 1>find your place in the world. You might want to

0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:33.240
<v Speaker 1>find your tribe, find your meaning, your purpose. There's also

0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:38.840
<v Speaker 1>during that late high school and early university you're idealistic

0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:41.600
<v Speaker 1>and you might be going through your first big breakup

0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:45.760
<v Speaker 1>or something like that. There's other risk factors that they

0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:48.079
<v Speaker 1>look for. It might be the diagnosis of an illness

0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:50.920
<v Speaker 1>or the death of a family member, divorce of parents,

0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:56.120
<v Speaker 1>your own divorce, moving house. These periods of transition, these

0:13:56.160 --> 0:14:01.040
<v Speaker 1>periods of loneliness ideal times for cults to come in

0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:03.720
<v Speaker 1>and be your meaning in life, to come in and

0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:06.840
<v Speaker 1>be your tribe, or come in and replace the family

0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:10.960
<v Speaker 1>or close relationships that you've lost. So yeah, I mean

0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:15.000
<v Speaker 1>that would be my theory, my hypothesis of why they'd

0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:20.760
<v Speaker 1>be targeting a certain age group and in the city and.

0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:25.000
<v Speaker 2>For those people that do full victim to these recruiting practices.

0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:27.560
<v Speaker 2>Can you to walk us through what it's like once

0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:29.479
<v Speaker 2>you're in cider cult.

0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:33.680
<v Speaker 1>All for I don't like using the term mind control

0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:38.480
<v Speaker 1>of brainwashing, but there's you know that's there, that pressure

0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:42.000
<v Speaker 1>to conform to the group, that pressure to learn their language,

0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:45.280
<v Speaker 1>their ways of thinking, and to represent that in the community.

0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:48.720
<v Speaker 1>By the time I was about fifteen, I was getting

0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:51.040
<v Speaker 1>up early in the morning to do my homeschooling. I

0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:54.160
<v Speaker 1>was then helping school my younger brothers and sisters. I

0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:57.200
<v Speaker 1>was then doing house chores, babysitting. I was then going

0:14:57.200 --> 0:15:00.960
<v Speaker 1>to McDonald's my mission field, to work my shifts. And

0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:05.080
<v Speaker 1>then I was usually at church doing various different things,

0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:09.520
<v Speaker 1>sort of five six afternoons or evenings per week, and

0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:12.840
<v Speaker 1>that six or fifth or sixth evening would be spent

0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:17.400
<v Speaker 1>reaching out to people. Later on, I was running businesses

0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:22.760
<v Speaker 1>and use discipleship programs, and I was fairly typical of

0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:26.720
<v Speaker 1>the level of volunteerism that was required there. And you know,

0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:28.840
<v Speaker 1>if you asked me, I would have said I was happy.

0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:31.760
<v Speaker 1>But I've been on antidepressants since I was nineteen, and

0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:35.760
<v Speaker 1>I have PTSD like many people who have escaped cults,

0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:39.800
<v Speaker 1>but we hide those in cults, and consequently, when we exit,

0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:43.320
<v Speaker 1>a lot of us end up with autoimmune disorders because

0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:47.120
<v Speaker 1>our body is just so pathologically tired. A lot of

0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:51.080
<v Speaker 1>us end up with these significant, you know, chronic illnesses.

0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:55.400
<v Speaker 1>But that's a consequence of just having to go, go, go, go,

0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:59.080
<v Speaker 1>and constantly represent and constantly be happy and joyful and

0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:04.000
<v Speaker 1>peaceful while squashing all the rest down. Disempowerment of women

0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:10.320
<v Speaker 1>is huge, and so too is conformity to gender or

0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:16.080
<v Speaker 1>sexuality norms. So unfortunately, change in suppression practices, which is

0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:18.440
<v Speaker 1>the proper name for sort of your gay conversion stuff,

0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:20.160
<v Speaker 1>still occurs in a lot of.

0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:25.240
<v Speaker 2>Groups you mentioned. There are some really concerning details around

0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:30.560
<v Speaker 2>psychological manipulation, forced labor, sexual assault. For people who are listening,

0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:34.480
<v Speaker 2>they might be thinking, if you're experiencing all those terrible things,

0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:37.280
<v Speaker 2>why wouldn't you just leave? Why wouldn't you get out?

0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:38.920
<v Speaker 2>What would you say to that?

0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:43.840
<v Speaker 1>It's the same as asking a person in an intimate

0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:48.040
<v Speaker 1>partner violence situation, why don't you just leave? For some people,

0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:51.440
<v Speaker 1>it's not just somewhere they go once a week for

0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:53.920
<v Speaker 1>a course. It is their social circle. It may be

0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:57.480
<v Speaker 1>their marriage and maybe their children. It maybe their family members.

0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:01.640
<v Speaker 1>It may have replaced their family members. They may have

0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:07.679
<v Speaker 1>their employment, housing, or support system in that group. That

0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:10.760
<v Speaker 1>group may possess a whole of their personal information. It's

0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:15.320
<v Speaker 1>common for persecution complex or in us versus them complex,

0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:17.959
<v Speaker 1>to be really built into that group as one of

0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:22.639
<v Speaker 1>the control or influenced strategies. We're often terrified of the

0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:26.760
<v Speaker 1>outside world and often hard to know where to start.

0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:30.320
<v Speaker 1>I've had people tell me of having absolute meltdowns over

0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:33.439
<v Speaker 1>how to open a bank account, how to get their

0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:37.280
<v Speaker 1>birth certificate or passport, what to pack in an escape,

0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:42.199
<v Speaker 1>who to call to escape? Can you trust that person?

0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:45.040
<v Speaker 1>So there's a lot of levels here, and you can't

0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:47.840
<v Speaker 1>just sort of call a hotline or google something and

0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:51.240
<v Speaker 1>go great, now I'm exiting like it's a really it's

0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:54.680
<v Speaker 1>a tricky process. For me, it was maybe I can

0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:58.399
<v Speaker 1>fix this. Maybe I can just show them what's wrong,

0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:01.560
<v Speaker 1>to show them the problems here, and maybe we can

0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:05.640
<v Speaker 1>fix this. You still love them, and I still love them,

0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:09.720
<v Speaker 1>And there's this double bind every time I speak out,

0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:12.280
<v Speaker 1>because I'm speaking about my mum and my dad and

0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:16.320
<v Speaker 1>my sisters and my brother, and I know that every

0:18:16.359 --> 0:18:20.560
<v Speaker 1>time I speak, they're cringing and they're going like they'd

0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:23.000
<v Speaker 1>be at home going why won't you stop attacking as,

0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:25.720
<v Speaker 1>why won't you shut up? And I'm here going I'm

0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:29.040
<v Speaker 1>not attacking you. I'm trying to stop people from suffering

0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:33.679
<v Speaker 1>the same damage that people in cults everywhere suffer. And

0:18:33.720 --> 0:18:37.840
<v Speaker 1>it's really really tough. So we should never ever look

0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:40.320
<v Speaker 1>at a as somebody who's in a cult or trying

0:18:40.480 --> 0:18:44.320
<v Speaker 1>and failing to escape, or trying to escape and succeeding

0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:46.480
<v Speaker 1>and struggling to integrate into the world. We should never

0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:48.399
<v Speaker 1>look at them and go, why didn't you do this earlier?

0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:53.120
<v Speaker 1>I was terrified. I was so terrified and couldn't imagine

0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:55.280
<v Speaker 1>the world a different way. It was my family, it

0:18:55.359 --> 0:19:01.560
<v Speaker 1>was everyone I'd ever trusted, And years on, I still

0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:05.199
<v Speaker 1>tango with that grief and that fear to be quite honest,

0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:08.919
<v Speaker 1>and that those ties to home. But I've got a

0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:13.239
<v Speaker 1>really beautiful life now that is authentically mine, and you know,

0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:18.960
<v Speaker 1>I'm able to recover. I'm able to live authentically as me,

0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:24.040
<v Speaker 1>even though my personality, my desire to think and lead

0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:27.840
<v Speaker 1>and contribute in my own way, to be my kind

0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:32.119
<v Speaker 1>of flamboyant self, was really squashed within my upbringing. So

0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:35.560
<v Speaker 1>even for me, reclaiming self and getting to know myself

0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:39.480
<v Speaker 1>has been a journey. But also rule Number one of

0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:42.920
<v Speaker 1>Colt Club is you're not a cult. Nobody ever thinks

0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:46.200
<v Speaker 1>there are cults, like, don't call it a coult Like.

0:19:47.600 --> 0:19:51.040
<v Speaker 1>It takes a lot for that moment to click that yeah,

0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:55.680
<v Speaker 1>you're actually you know, problematic and it's not a comfortable

0:19:55.760 --> 0:19:56.800
<v Speaker 1>recognition when you do.

0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:00.320
<v Speaker 2>I wanted to end by thinking about the f a

0:20:00.359 --> 0:20:02.560
<v Speaker 2>little bit. You've got this inquiry on it at the moment,

0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:05.600
<v Speaker 2>humidly there's going to be some recommendations made at the

0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:08.960
<v Speaker 2>end of it. What kind of changes can the government make?

0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:12.760
<v Speaker 1>This is a really interesting one because many cult inquiries

0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:15.200
<v Speaker 1>or inquiries into groups like this have happened in different

0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:18.919
<v Speaker 1>jurisdictions and they've all been hamstrung on. But freedom of

0:20:18.920 --> 0:20:22.720
<v Speaker 1>religion and belief, freedom of association, and these are valid things.

0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:24.960
<v Speaker 1>So we really need to change the framing here and

0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:28.719
<v Speaker 1>we need to start talking about coercive control in group settings.

0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:33.120
<v Speaker 1>We're also suggesting to government, recommending to government that they

0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:38.520
<v Speaker 1>have a independent commissioner for cults and high control groups.

0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:43.760
<v Speaker 1>Reason being just in Victoria alone, there's thirty different areas

0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:47.439
<v Speaker 1>of law, thirty different acts, and there's something like twenty

0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:51.320
<v Speaker 1>one different government departments that may hold a single area

0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:54.600
<v Speaker 1>of cultic abuse in their remit. So we're talking about

0:20:54.960 --> 0:20:58.280
<v Speaker 1>how on earth do you coordinate this. You know, when

0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:01.360
<v Speaker 1>Peter doesn't know what Paul's doing, you need an independent

0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:04.320
<v Speaker 1>commissioner to do that. You need it to be independent

0:21:04.480 --> 0:21:08.040
<v Speaker 1>because if it's tied to a minister and you end

0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:12.080
<v Speaker 1>up with a far right minister at the head of

0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:15.600
<v Speaker 1>that it could be axed because it's a challenging concept

0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:19.600
<v Speaker 1>for those far right or even indeed really really far

0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:22.239
<v Speaker 1>left groups. So we need it to be independent so

0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:28.600
<v Speaker 1>it can coordinate things like research, education, public health style campaigns,

0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:35.560
<v Speaker 1>support for survivors, exit strategies, and of course civil and

0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:40.080
<v Speaker 1>criminal recourse for victims. So that's what we want.

0:21:40.240 --> 0:21:42.280
<v Speaker 2>Heculus, Claire, thank you so much for joining us at

0:21:42.280 --> 0:21:42.879
<v Speaker 2>the Daily ODS.

0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:44.320
<v Speaker 1>My absolute pleasure.

0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:48.040
<v Speaker 3>Thank you so much Elliott for unpacking that one today,

0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:51.520
<v Speaker 3>a really interesting and important conversation, and of course a

0:21:51.600 --> 0:21:54.240
<v Speaker 3>huge thanks to Claire for sharing her story and joining

0:21:54.280 --> 0:21:57.920
<v Speaker 3>us at the Daily OS. The inquiry is continuing in Victoria.

0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:02.200
<v Speaker 3>Full report and recommendations are you by September next year.

0:22:02.520 --> 0:22:04.800
<v Speaker 3>We will keep you posted in the meantime. That's all

0:22:04.840 --> 0:22:06.960
<v Speaker 3>we've got time for today, But if this episode has

0:22:07.040 --> 0:22:09.280
<v Speaker 3>raised any issues for you, twenty four to seven crisis

0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:13.199
<v Speaker 3>support is available through Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen. For

0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:15.920
<v Speaker 3>family and sexual violence support, you can contact one eight

0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:19.119
<v Speaker 3>hundred respect on one eight hundred seven three seven seven

0:22:19.200 --> 0:22:20.360
<v Speaker 3>three two.

0:22:24.080 --> 0:22:26.399
<v Speaker 2>My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda

0:22:26.640 --> 0:22:29.200
<v Speaker 2>Banjelung Calcottin woman from Gadighl country.

0:22:30.000 --> 0:22:33.159
<v Speaker 1>The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on

0:22:33.200 --> 0:22:35.679
<v Speaker 1>the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to

0:22:35.760 --> 0:22:38.440
<v Speaker 1>all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island and nations.

0:22:38.760 --> 0:22:41.680
<v Speaker 2>We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries,

0:22:41.800 --> 0:22:43.000
<v Speaker 2>both past and present.