1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:04,360 Speaker 1: Already and this is the daily This is the Daily os. 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Oh now it makes sense. 3 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily Ohs. It's Monday, 4 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 2: the seventeenth of November. I'm Elliot Lourie. 5 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 3: I'm Emma Gillespie. 6 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 2: When we talk about colts, we tend to picture the 7 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 2: classic images a doomsday group in the desert or a 8 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 2: fringe religious sect that feels totally disconnected from everyday life. 9 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 2: But here in Australia, cults are a current and pressing 10 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 2: issue in our communities, so much so that the Victorian 11 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:38,880 Speaker 2: Parliament has now launched an inquiry into colts and other 12 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:41,880 Speaker 2: coercive groups. In today's podcast, you're going to hear from 13 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 2: Claire Heath MacIvor. She established an advocacy organization called the 14 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,199 Speaker 2: Survivors of Coercive Cults and High Control Groups after she 15 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:51,560 Speaker 2: left behind the life she was born into a high 16 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 2: control group in Eastern Victoria. 17 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 3: Elliott, this is such a fascinating topic to be talking 18 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 3: about today, and I think you really nailed it with 19 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 3: your intro when you said that cults can feel like 20 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 3: this kind of really far away concept or the stuff 21 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 3: of true crime podcasts and docos, But it is a 22 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:18,320 Speaker 3: very real issue currently being discussed in Victoria, and Claire 23 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 3: is one of many former cult members who are now 24 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 3: working with the Victorian government as it tries to understand 25 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 3: more about these groups. Before we jump into her story, 26 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 3: can you tell us a little bit more about this 27 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 3: parliamentary inquiry? 28 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:35,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. So earlier this year, the Victorian government 29 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 2: announced that they'd be holding their own inquiry into cults 30 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 2: and high control groups. It's important to note that those 31 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 2: terms are kind of used interchangeably because cults have a 32 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 2: very intense stigma attached to them, so they try to 33 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 2: word it a little bit differently sometimes, but we will 34 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 2: hear throughout the podcast those two terms kind of used 35 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 2: in the same way. But basically, an inquiry gives the 36 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 2: public an opportunity to have input into issues that are 37 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:02,559 Speaker 2: before parliament. This particular inquiry has already heard from several 38 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 2: survivors as well as advocacy groups, trauma experts, and religious groups. 39 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 3: Okay, and why is it happening right now? Why has 40 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 3: the government in Victoria decided that now's the time. 41 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 2: Look, there's a lot of problems that they're trying to 42 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 2: solve here. One of the main ones is that we 43 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 2: don't have a legal definition here in Australia for what 44 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 2: a cult is. 45 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 3: Okay. 46 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 2: On top of that, they're also trying to fill in 47 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 2: the gaps that are in existing legislation to help better 48 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 2: crack down on cult activity in the state. But the 49 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,119 Speaker 2: reason that they're holding the inquiry right now is off 50 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 2: the back of a massive surgeon reports of high control 51 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 2: groups operating across the state. One of the more high 52 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 2: profile cases that helped trigger the inquiry came from the 53 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 2: Geelong Revival Center, which is a Pentecostal doomsday church based 54 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 2: just outside of Melbourne. We've also seen a lot of 55 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 2: cases of young people being targeted by cults. The inquiry 56 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 2: has actually heard that universities and shopping centers have become 57 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 2: hunting grounds for these sorts of recruiters for these cults, 58 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 2: and this month we've actually seen leaders from the state's 59 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 2: universities appear before the inquiry to try and help the 60 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 2: government put together a response. 61 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, the way that this has impacted young people, the 62 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:14,839 Speaker 3: university recruitment stuff that has emerged is super fascinating. That 63 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 3: gives us a bit of a picture of the inquiry itself. 64 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 3: But today we're going to hear from Claire, Can you 65 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 3: tell us a little bit more about her? 66 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, So Claire was born and raised in the City 67 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 2: Builders Church, which is also in Victoria. Her father is 68 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:30,959 Speaker 2: actually a pastor in the church, and Claire has been 69 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 2: ostracized from her entire family and also her former community 70 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 2: for almost a decade now. She told me about how 71 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 2: hard it's been to adapt to a new life on 72 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 2: the outside, as well as some stories from her experience that, 73 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 2: while shocking, are actually pretty commonplace amongst cult survivors. You'll 74 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 2: hear more from her in just a second, but I 75 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 2: do want to preface this interview with just a quick 76 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 2: content warning because we do discuss various forms of abuse 77 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 2: throughout the chat. If you're not feeling up to it, 78 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 2: then maybe come back for tomorrow's deep dive, but without 79 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 2: further ado. Claire, thank you for joining the Dai they Os. 80 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: It's my pleasure. 81 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 2: So I want to start off really broad today. We're 82 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 2: talking about cults for anyone that's maybe not exactly sure 83 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 2: what is a cult. 84 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: A cult can be any group, essentially, any group that 85 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 1: has these combination of characteristics. Usually a cult has a 86 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: central charismatic leader, usually a bit narcissistic who commands a 87 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: lot of obedience and a lot of adoration and adulation. 88 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: A cult usually has a transcendent belief system, so the 89 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 1: one kind of higher truth or the one path to enlightenment. 90 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: They also have systems of influence by which people are 91 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,280 Speaker 1: indoctrinated and brought into the group. Often these are quite 92 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: deceptive from the outset and get more serious as you 93 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: come into the group, and they have systems of control 94 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 1: once you're in. A lot of people think that cults 95 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: are just religious or pseudo rel We think of sort 96 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: of white doomsday cults, but it's just not the case. 97 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: Cults can be any type of group. There's yoga cults, 98 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: there's Buddhist cults, hard labor cults, there's you know, multi 99 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:18,479 Speaker 1: level marketing cults. Even it can be all sorts of groups. 100 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,599 Speaker 2: And you, yourself, are a survivor of a cult. Can 101 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 2: you tell us a little bit about your experience? 102 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, my group. You know, it's still uncomfortable to 103 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: call it a cult, even though i've you know, it 104 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 1: definitely fits the definition, but it was it's a Christian 105 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: church that exists further out on the fundamentalist edge. We're 106 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 1: a dominionist group, so We believed that God had sent 107 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: us to take dominion of the seven domains of society. 108 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: It's a common evangelical doctrine, but the control and an 109 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,799 Speaker 1: influenced methodology within that group is what makes it quite 110 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 1: quite a standout in that area. We were very, very 111 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: interested in politics and had concentrated efforts to infiltrate particularly 112 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: the National Party and the Liberal Party in Victoria. Were 113 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: also quite well known for our attitudes towards LGBT people. 114 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:29,479 Speaker 1: My ex husband is a gay conversion therapy survivor, and 115 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: even though gay conversion therapy is outlawed, you know, in 116 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: a lot of places, it's broader than just therapy. It's 117 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 1: actually gay conversion practices, sexual orientation or gender identity change efforts. 118 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 1: There can be anything from prayer and exorcism to homophobia 119 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 1: from behind the pulpit to all sorts of things. And 120 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,919 Speaker 1: we were in an arranged marriage, you know, some of 121 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: these ideas are quite deeply held within these groups. So yeah, 122 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: so that was our group, still very involved in politics, 123 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: and my parents actually run that group and I am 124 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: sadly estranged from them and my four siblings. 125 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 2: At what point in your experience did you start to 126 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 2: sort of have questions or thoughts about the fact that 127 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 2: you may be in a cult. What was the moment 128 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 2: that sort of made you realize. 129 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: So there had been moments over the years, probably from 130 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: when I was around sixteen, that I was visited by 131 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: that discomfort, especially when it came to abuse that I 132 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: suffered or that other people suffered, and the way that 133 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: that was handled that made me feel really really uncomfortable. 134 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: I was aware that people in the community felt it 135 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 1: was a cult, which was also deeply uncomfortable. But it 136 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: wasn't until the eleventh of November twenty fifteen, when I 137 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: found out I was pregnant with our first child, but 138 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: it's actually our fifth pregnancy that my husband had a 139 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: fight with my dad and thus began the process of 140 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: our shunning. And it's a deeply painful memory. But also 141 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: I just don't think that I would have been able 142 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: to carry that pregnancy to term if I had been 143 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: in that high stress environment. Shunning isn't fun, but at 144 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: least I knew I wasn't bringing a child into that world. 145 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 2: And we're talking today because the Victorian Parliament has launched 146 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,719 Speaker 2: a inquiry into colts. Yes, why do you think they've 147 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 2: launched it. Now that is. 148 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: A loaded question. I mean, I can only assume to 149 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: me like I've had my hearing in front of the inquiry, 150 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: and I've found the committee to be really deeply invested 151 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: in this, and that seems to not be a partisan thing. 152 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 1: It seems to be right across the board, Labor, Liberal Nationals, 153 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,839 Speaker 1: for which I'm deeply thankful. A couple of years ago, 154 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: one of the goats of Australian analysm Richard Baker, started 155 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 1: working with survivors of the Geelong Revival Center and he 156 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 1: started working with them on a podcast series called Secrets 157 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: We Keep Pray Harder. But it actually got benched for 158 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: a few years because some members of the Geelong Revival 159 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:22,559 Speaker 1: Center leadership were actually up on charges related to child essay, 160 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:26,479 Speaker 1: so that had to wait. And then when it was launched, 161 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: Ryan and Catherine Cary, who led the charge on that podcast, 162 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 1: they were working with Chris Cousins, who is an MP 163 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: out in that area, and Chris really just deeply cared 164 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: about this so helped them get an inquiry up. And 165 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:46,439 Speaker 1: the data that's come out is so compelling in terms 166 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: of like ninety five point nine percent of respondents on 167 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: the survey said that they'd suffered psychological harm, something like 168 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: eighty five percent said limitations on personal freedom and fifty 169 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 1: two point four four percent said physical or essay abuse. 170 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 2: You mentioned a survey conducted by the Parliamentary Inquiry which 171 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 2: revealed some trends about cult survivors and their experiences there. 172 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 2: One of the more interesting ones that I was looking 173 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 2: at was how people are recruited into cults. Can you 174 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 2: maybe talk us through what are some of the more 175 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 2: common practices? 176 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: Oh, okay, this is really interesting because it seems to 177 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: be the same right across the board. I think a 178 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 1: lot of people think, oh, you know, there's there's kids 179 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 1: that are born into cults and it's it's you know, 180 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: child abuse is rife, and we need to absolutely take 181 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: that seriously. But there's this thought that, you know, whatever 182 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 1: consenting adults do when a cult is up to them. 183 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: The thing is nobody consents to join a cult. You 184 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 1: don't rock up and somebody hands you a flyer and says, hey, 185 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:54,959 Speaker 1: welcome to this cult. We're going to control every aspect 186 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: of your life. It's just not how it happens. What 187 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: will happen instead is you'll be invited to you know, 188 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: a social gathering, you might be befriended by one or two extras. 189 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: They might start to love bomb you, which is intoxicating. 190 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: But you'll be invited to then do courses and it 191 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: might seem really innocuous. It might be a course about 192 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: you know, authentic manhood or masculinity, and the MANI sphere 193 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: is a huge concern with regard to that. It might 194 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 1: be a course about you know, women's empowerment or politics 195 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: or philosophy. It might be about recovery from abuse. And 196 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 1: then you start sharing your more intimate secrets with this mentor, 197 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden there's emotional buy in 198 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: and then the energy that you'll be putting into the 199 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 1: group through volunteer work or more courses or stuff like that. 200 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: It starts to increase as your connection to your friends 201 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: and families decrease. And then you'll have a moment where 202 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: it might be like, Oh, your friends and your family 203 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: don't really understand where your real family where your real friends. 204 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: This is the one truth. Hey, why don't you invest 205 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: in this opportunity or invest in this course, or invest 206 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: in whatever. So nobody consents to join a cult. They 207 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 1: consent to go to a barbecue or go to a 208 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 1: fun group, or go to a personal development course, and 209 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 1: it's like boiling that frog degree by degree, and it's 210 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: not until the water's boiling and it's too late to 211 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 1: escape easily that people usually realize they're in a cult. 212 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 3: We'll be right back with more of today's deep dive 213 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:27,560 Speaker 3: right after this. 214 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 2: And there's a bit of a running joke, for lack 215 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 2: of a better term, about this one area in Melbourne 216 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 2: CBD Melbourne Central or Emporium where people say, you know, 217 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 2: if someone comes up to you and as being nice 218 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 2: to you right away, because they're likely recruiting you into 219 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 2: a cult. Yes, why do you think that's taking place there? 220 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 2: And is there a certain target that these cults are 221 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 2: going after? 222 00:12:55,760 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, I do know that the Shinchyanji cult, which is 223 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 1: particularly insidious, is recruiting on university campuses a lot. You 224 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: often see street preachers down at the Burke Street mall 225 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: and intersections like that. Essentially, cults are looking for people 226 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: who are in the crosshairs of big transitions in life, 227 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: whether that is adolescence where the apron strings are loosening, 228 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: you're more interested in your friend group, You're trying to 229 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: find your place in the world. You might want to 230 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: find your tribe, find your meaning, your purpose. There's also 231 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 1: during that late high school and early university you're idealistic 232 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: and you might be going through your first big breakup 233 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 1: or something like that. There's other risk factors that they 234 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:48,079 Speaker 1: look for. It might be the diagnosis of an illness 235 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: or the death of a family member, divorce of parents, 236 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: your own divorce, moving house. These periods of transition, these 237 00:13:56,160 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: periods of loneliness ideal times for cults to come in 238 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 1: and be your meaning in life, to come in and 239 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: be your tribe, or come in and replace the family 240 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 1: or close relationships that you've lost. So yeah, I mean 241 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: that would be my theory, my hypothesis of why they'd 242 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: be targeting a certain age group and in the city and. 243 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 2: For those people that do full victim to these recruiting practices. 244 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 2: Can you to walk us through what it's like once 245 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:29,479 Speaker 2: you're in cider cult. 246 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: All for I don't like using the term mind control 247 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 1: of brainwashing, but there's you know that's there, that pressure 248 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: to conform to the group, that pressure to learn their language, 249 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: their ways of thinking, and to represent that in the community. 250 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: By the time I was about fifteen, I was getting 251 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: up early in the morning to do my homeschooling. I 252 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: was then helping school my younger brothers and sisters. I 253 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: was then doing house chores, babysitting. I was then going 254 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: to McDonald's my mission field, to work my shifts. And 255 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: then I was usually at church doing various different things, 256 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: sort of five six afternoons or evenings per week, and 257 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: that six or fifth or sixth evening would be spent 258 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: reaching out to people. Later on, I was running businesses 259 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 1: and use discipleship programs, and I was fairly typical of 260 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: the level of volunteerism that was required there. And you know, 261 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: if you asked me, I would have said I was happy. 262 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: But I've been on antidepressants since I was nineteen, and 263 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 1: I have PTSD like many people who have escaped cults, 264 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: but we hide those in cults, and consequently, when we exit, 265 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: a lot of us end up with autoimmune disorders because 266 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 1: our body is just so pathologically tired. A lot of 267 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 1: us end up with these significant, you know, chronic illnesses. 268 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: But that's a consequence of just having to go, go, go, go, 269 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: and constantly represent and constantly be happy and joyful and 270 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: peaceful while squashing all the rest down. Disempowerment of women 271 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: is huge, and so too is conformity to gender or 272 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: sexuality norms. So unfortunately, change in suppression practices, which is 273 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: the proper name for sort of your gay conversion stuff, 274 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: still occurs in a lot of. 275 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 2: Groups you mentioned. There are some really concerning details around 276 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 2: psychological manipulation, forced labor, sexual assault. For people who are listening, 277 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 2: they might be thinking, if you're experiencing all those terrible things, 278 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 2: why wouldn't you just leave? Why wouldn't you get out? 279 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 2: What would you say to that? 280 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: It's the same as asking a person in an intimate 281 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: partner violence situation, why don't you just leave? For some people, 282 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: it's not just somewhere they go once a week for 283 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: a course. It is their social circle. It may be 284 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 1: their marriage and maybe their children. It maybe their family members. 285 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: It may have replaced their family members. They may have 286 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:07,679 Speaker 1: their employment, housing, or support system in that group. That 287 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: group may possess a whole of their personal information. It's 288 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: common for persecution complex or in us versus them complex, 289 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:17,959 Speaker 1: to be really built into that group as one of 290 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 1: the control or influenced strategies. We're often terrified of the 291 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: outside world and often hard to know where to start. 292 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: I've had people tell me of having absolute meltdowns over 293 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,439 Speaker 1: how to open a bank account, how to get their 294 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: birth certificate or passport, what to pack in an escape, 295 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:42,199 Speaker 1: who to call to escape? Can you trust that person? 296 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: So there's a lot of levels here, and you can't 297 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 1: just sort of call a hotline or google something and 298 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 1: go great, now I'm exiting like it's a really it's 299 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 1: a tricky process. For me, it was maybe I can 300 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,399 Speaker 1: fix this. Maybe I can just show them what's wrong, 301 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: to show them the problems here, and maybe we can 302 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 1: fix this. You still love them, and I still love them, 303 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 1: And there's this double bind every time I speak out, 304 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: because I'm speaking about my mum and my dad and 305 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 1: my sisters and my brother, and I know that every 306 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: time I speak, they're cringing and they're going like they'd 307 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: be at home going why won't you stop attacking as, 308 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 1: why won't you shut up? And I'm here going I'm 309 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: not attacking you. I'm trying to stop people from suffering 310 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:33,679 Speaker 1: the same damage that people in cults everywhere suffer. And 311 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 1: it's really really tough. So we should never ever look 312 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: at a as somebody who's in a cult or trying 313 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: and failing to escape, or trying to escape and succeeding 314 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: and struggling to integrate into the world. We should never 315 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:48,399 Speaker 1: look at them and go, why didn't you do this earlier? 316 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:53,120 Speaker 1: I was terrified. I was so terrified and couldn't imagine 317 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 1: the world a different way. It was my family, it 318 00:18:55,359 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: was everyone I'd ever trusted, And years on, I still 319 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:05,199 Speaker 1: tango with that grief and that fear to be quite honest, 320 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 1: and that those ties to home. But I've got a 321 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:13,239 Speaker 1: really beautiful life now that is authentically mine, and you know, 322 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 1: I'm able to recover. I'm able to live authentically as me, 323 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: even though my personality, my desire to think and lead 324 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: and contribute in my own way, to be my kind 325 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 1: of flamboyant self, was really squashed within my upbringing. So 326 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: even for me, reclaiming self and getting to know myself 327 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: has been a journey. But also rule Number one of 328 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,920 Speaker 1: Colt Club is you're not a cult. Nobody ever thinks 329 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 1: there are cults, like, don't call it a coult Like. 330 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 1: It takes a lot for that moment to click that yeah, 331 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 1: you're actually you know, problematic and it's not a comfortable 332 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 1: recognition when you do. 333 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 2: I wanted to end by thinking about the f a 334 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 2: little bit. You've got this inquiry on it at the moment, 335 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 2: humidly there's going to be some recommendations made at the 336 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 2: end of it. What kind of changes can the government make? 337 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: This is a really interesting one because many cult inquiries 338 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 1: or inquiries into groups like this have happened in different 339 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,919 Speaker 1: jurisdictions and they've all been hamstrung on. But freedom of 340 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 1: religion and belief, freedom of association, and these are valid things. 341 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: So we really need to change the framing here and 342 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,719 Speaker 1: we need to start talking about coercive control in group settings. 343 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:33,120 Speaker 1: We're also suggesting to government, recommending to government that they 344 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: have a independent commissioner for cults and high control groups. 345 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 1: Reason being just in Victoria alone, there's thirty different areas 346 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,439 Speaker 1: of law, thirty different acts, and there's something like twenty 347 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: one different government departments that may hold a single area 348 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: of cultic abuse in their remit. So we're talking about 349 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: how on earth do you coordinate this. You know, when 350 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,360 Speaker 1: Peter doesn't know what Paul's doing, you need an independent 351 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: commissioner to do that. You need it to be independent 352 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: because if it's tied to a minister and you end 353 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: up with a far right minister at the head of 354 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: that it could be axed because it's a challenging concept 355 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: for those far right or even indeed really really far 356 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:22,239 Speaker 1: left groups. So we need it to be independent so 357 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: it can coordinate things like research, education, public health style campaigns, 358 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: support for survivors, exit strategies, and of course civil and 359 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 1: criminal recourse for victims. So that's what we want. 360 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 2: Heculus, Claire, thank you so much for joining us at 361 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 2: the Daily ODS. 362 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: My absolute pleasure. 363 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 3: Thank you so much Elliott for unpacking that one today, 364 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 3: a really interesting and important conversation, and of course a 365 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 3: huge thanks to Claire for sharing her story and joining 366 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,920 Speaker 3: us at the Daily OS. The inquiry is continuing in Victoria. 367 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 3: Full report and recommendations are you by September next year. 368 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 3: We will keep you posted in the meantime. That's all 369 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 3: we've got time for today, But if this episode has 370 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 3: raised any issues for you, twenty four to seven crisis 371 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:13,199 Speaker 3: support is available through Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen. For 372 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 3: family and sexual violence support, you can contact one eight 373 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 3: hundred respect on one eight hundred seven three seven seven 374 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:20,360 Speaker 3: three two. 375 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,399 Speaker 2: My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda 376 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 2: Banjelung Calcottin woman from Gadighl country. 377 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,159 Speaker 1: The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on 378 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,679 Speaker 1: the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to 379 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 1: all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island and nations. 380 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 2: We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries, 381 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 2: both past and present.