WEBVTT - Lessons Learnt 0:00:02.600 --> 0:00:06.000 Just before nine o'clock last night, the jury returned guilty 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:10.000 verdicts against all three defendants. It was absolute shambles, to 0:00:10.039 --> 0:00:12.119 tell you the truth, just absolutely really coming. 0:00:12.160 --> 0:00:15.120 Blood on his clothing the day after the alleged attimp. 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:17.440 On a shallow mud bank and it fits through river. Basically, 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:19.160 I think most of the people are used to me, 0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:22.160 there are good people. I think a really important question 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:25.239 we need to ask is how many Indigenous prisoners in 0:00:25.280 --> 0:00:26.279 Australia are innocent. 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:29.800 This is Curtain, a podcast where we pulled back the 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:32.360 blinds to shine a light on the darkest parts of 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:36.160 our justice system and ask who are the victims. I'm 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:38.520 Amy Maguire and. 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:42.040 I'm Martin Hodgson, a senior advocate for the Foreign Prisoner 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:46.280 Support Service. Our producer is Paul Watts. Music by Clint 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:50.720 Curtis and produced in collaboration with the Brisbane Indigenous Media 0:00:50.800 --> 0:00:55.520 Association and a warning. This series contains the names of 0:00:55.560 --> 0:01:00.720 deceased peoples and has distressing content that might upset listeners. 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:05.520 Welcome to Episode ten of Curtain. Over the past year, 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:08.720 Martin and I have been investigating the case of an 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:11.080 Aboriginal man who was locked up for murder in rock 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:14.440 Hampton and Central Queensland, all the way back in nineteen 0:01:14.480 --> 0:01:18.200 ninety one. Now we started this podcast series by telling 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:22.120 you how we began this investigation, and it all started 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:25.760 with an interview that Martin gave me on the Aboriginal 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:29.560 radio Current Affashion Let's Talk on ninety eight point nine 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:33.720 in Brisbane. So we thought for our last episode before 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:38.039 the Christmas break, we'd go back to the start and 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:41.840 end to this year with yet another interview looking at 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:45.800 what we've learned, what this story of Kevin Henry has 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:49.840 taught us about the justice system in Australia. Martin, You've 0:01:49.840 --> 0:01:54.280 had a long history looking into the justice system, not 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:58.600 just in Australia but overseas. But has this case changed 0:01:58.760 --> 0:01:59.800 your views on. 0:02:01.520 --> 0:02:05.520 I think, if anything, it's entrenched many of my views, 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:10.600 particularly around the problems of the way Aboriginal people are treated, 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:16.320 not just in the justice system, but by the police, politically, 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:20.560 the media and all those issues. And for me, this 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:23.440 is the first time where I've been able to examine 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:28.200 a case, I guess more objectively, not playing so much 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:31.880 of an active role, but standing back and really being 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:35.600 able to just look at the history and everything that 0:02:35.720 --> 0:02:39.000 surrounds it so to be able to hear from experts 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:42.760 as we have to be able to really delve into 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:48.080 the history of Rockhampton, the people involved, the community involved. 0:02:48.960 --> 0:02:52.040 It's really taught me a lot more than what I 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:56.079 thought I knew, and unfortunately, I think what I've learned 0:02:56.200 --> 0:02:59.960 is that even though I thought it was bad, really bad, 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:05.520 it's actually a lot worse, and that even in twenty sixteen, 0:03:06.240 --> 0:03:09.360 we really haven't changed anything in that whole twenty five 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:14.560 years since Kevin was first imprisoned and since that awful day. 0:03:16.280 --> 0:03:20.520 Do you remember what your first thoughts were when you 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:22.960 started to look into this case of Kevin Henry. 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:29.960 I think firstly, I was always conscious of the possibility 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:35.839 of Indigenous prisoners in Australia being innocent and serving very 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:40.360 long sentences. I think it's one thing when someone does 0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:43.240 three or six months for something they didn't do, and 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:47.440 that obviously is still terrible. Any day in prison for 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:50.960 a crime you didn't commit is too long. But this 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:53.360 was one of the first cases where I was able 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:58.680 to really explore that further, analyze whether Kevin had had 0:03:58.800 --> 0:04:05.080 a fair trial, analyze the evidence forensically and scientifically from 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:09.800 a legal basis, discuss it with experts, discuss it with colleagues, 0:04:10.760 --> 0:04:14.960 and I think it just meant that my suspicions around 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:20.400 the issue of just how many innocent Indigenous prisoners there 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:25.919 could be. I think my fear was realized with just 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:30.479 how poorly the whole system handled this case and so 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:33.719 many others that we now know about and have always 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:34.279 known about. 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:38.839 It's obviously such a stiph's case, I guess, and there's 0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:42.440 so many barriers against us, particularly you know the time 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:47.440 that has passed since this tragic murder actually happened. But 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:52.359 how when did you have any hesitation about taking it 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:56.039 on because it's such a horrendous case that we could 0:04:56.279 --> 0:05:01.560 find out ultimately that what we're what we're looking into, 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:03.799 there was nothing there. I guess when did you start 0:05:03.839 --> 0:05:06.600 to realize that there was actually something there or what 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:08.560 you thought there was something there. Yeah. 0:05:08.600 --> 0:05:11.680 I think that's really important in any of these issues, 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:16.520 that just because somebody claims they're innocent doesn't mean that 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:22.200 they are. So I always start from looking at the facts, 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:25.240 and first you want to analyze did a person have 0:05:25.320 --> 0:05:31.600 a fair trial? Then if you can be sure that 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:35.240 the trial was at least suspecting some way or there 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:39.279 were problems with the trial. Then you can also look 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:42.840 at the facts that were presented at trial and the 0:05:42.880 --> 0:05:46.560 facts that you know to be true that you can 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:51.640 find out forensic evidence, statements that were never tended to 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:56.080 the court that might paint a different picture. So I 0:05:56.120 --> 0:06:01.160 think it was really more a process rather being convinced 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:07.640 at one moment. Is that more and more as I investigated, 0:06:07.680 --> 0:06:11.480 the more I learned about the case, once I'd finished 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:15.560 reading all the transcripts of the trial, I think it 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:19.840 was just a gradual process of so many flaws that 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:24.400 eventually you can't come to any other conclusion that Kevin 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:26.119 Henry did not have a fair trial. 0:06:27.600 --> 0:06:30.920 We were recapping for our listeners just to refresh their 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:35.640 memory as we go into the new year. But here 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:38.800 describe what were the biggest flaws do you think that 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:41.640 came out of your investigation back into the trial. 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:48.280 I think they're probably threefold. The first flow is that 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:53.520 there is no scientific or forensic evidence that links Kevin 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:57.400 Henry to the murder in any way, and straight away 0:06:57.440 --> 0:07:02.200 that's problematic, I think for any one listening who either 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:06.120 works in the law or is familiar with these sort 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:08.880 of cases, or perhaps has even just seen them on TV. 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:13.160 We are used to being told of forensic evidence, at 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:18.400 least something that links that person directly and physically to 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:23.600 the crime scene and to the events that took place, 0:07:24.120 --> 0:07:26.880 and that's totally missing. So that was the first thing, 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:32.720 and I was actually deeply surprised that that didn't exist. 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:35.760 I thought that would be a hurdle that would perhaps 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:38.640 have to be crossed, and the fact that that evidence 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:44.440 just didn't exist is perhaps the most troubling piece of 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:49.240 evidence of all. And that leads to the police investigation, 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:52.600 which is the second issue that I have with all 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:56.119 of this. It's the way the police handled things from 0:07:56.160 --> 0:08:01.720 the start, and I think very early on, a deep 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:06.760 concern I had was that an Aboriginal woman had been murdered. 0:08:08.280 --> 0:08:11.720 We know she'd been assaulted in a brutal fashion, and 0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:15.400 yet the police were completely cavalier in their approach to 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:19.640 their investigation. There seemed to be no concern on their 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:24.920 behalf of handling this matter in a sensitive way, of 0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:29.280 following procedure and protocol to ensure that she and her 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:33.439 family would get justice and that the right person would 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:39.360 be eventually found guilty and that everyone who knew Linda 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:44.040 would have some closure at least in terms of knowing 0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:47.920 what had happened. And finally, I think the third thing 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:53.679 was the failure of the justice system, and that's a 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:58.480 failure that I think is perpetrated against all Aboriginal people 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:02.360 in Australia, and in this case, it was perpetrated against 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:07.480 the Aboriginal community of Rockhampton in that people who had 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:11.040 no involvement at all were rounded up and harassed by police, 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:16.400 often for months and months. I think the way the 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:21.320 justice system handled this, with multiple people being charged in 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:26.319 different circumstances, with people being brought to court and their 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:33.200 lawyers not being briefed, with lawyers chopping and changing, with 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:38.200 barristers arriving on the day, with judges having to rule 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:44.360 pieces of evidence inadmissible because of police behavior, with judges 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:48.520 having to give special instructions to the jury that should 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:51.959 not have needed to be given, and all of this 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:55.920 relates to the fact that all involved were Aboriginal. I 0:09:55.960 --> 0:10:01.240 think those three issues, the lack of forensic evidence, the 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:06.240 way the police behaved, and the way the justice system operates. 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:10.760 So the three most troubling issues and the things the 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:13.640 three things I think people should really keep in mind, 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:19.000 and all of which go to show that from the 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:25.120 moment Linda was first armed, nobody in that system ever 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:29.680 took seriously getting justice for her. And that's where we 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:31.880 are today, and that's why we're here today. 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:36.400 I think it's so important to stress the aboriginality of 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:40.560 the victims and the alleged perpetrator as well, because I 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:44.960 think for maybe listeners who aren't familiar with the Aboriginal community, 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:48.000 I just feel this is a story that never would 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:51.280 have happened in a non Indigenous community, something that's something 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:55.080 that you feel that it's not the screw ups to 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:59.000 you know, monumental screw ups would never have happened in 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:02.600 a non Indigenous community or would have been very unlikely 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:03.360 to have happened. 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:07.280 Well, yes, And I think that's uncomfortable perhaps for a 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:10.760 lot of people, and maybe it's most uncomfortable for those 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:16.600 involved in policing and in the justice system themselves. But 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:19.520 I think it's something we have to accept, is that 0:11:19.720 --> 0:11:23.440 Australia has a very poor job when it comes to 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:28.040 these types of cases and issues. I think had the 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:32.440 victim been white, we would have had a very different 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:37.360 police investigation and a very different trial. And I think 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:41.440 had the perpetrator been white, we would have seen things 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:45.560 done very differently too, And again that was one of 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:49.240 the very early lessons that the sloppiness and the way 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:54.679 the people, all the people from the accused to the victim, 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:59.520 to the bystanders to those totally innocent and caught out 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:03.720 by the process, we're all treated in a different manner 0:12:03.880 --> 0:12:06.000 purely because they were aboriginal. 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:11.320 I think one of the most interesting episodes for me 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:17.160 recording it you've also listening back, was the episode's visit 0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:22.040 on the forced confessions. Can you tell me recap a 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:26.560 little bit for our listeners about about Kevin's confession and 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:28.360 what we now know that we might not have known 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:29.680 other started this investigation. 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:34.000 Well, the first thing I learned, or one of the 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:38.559 first things I had learned, is that Kevin had confessed, 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:44.000 and that's always worrying, of course, that someone's confessed to 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:47.839 a crime and perhaps now they're trying to change their 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:51.640 mind about all that. So immediately you go to that 0:12:51.800 --> 0:12:55.840 confession and you want to look at it. But of 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:58.400 course what we didn't know when we first looked into 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:04.000 this was that the way Kevin's interviews were conducted, the 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:08.080 way the statements were taken from him were not done 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:13.680 in a professional manner at all. His first statement was 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:19.320 taken the following day, and it appears that not much 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:23.000 in that statement matches the second statement, which is the 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:28.360 alleged confession. And what's interesting about the alleged confession is 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:32.720 Kevin never confesses to murder. Now, the other things we 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:37.080 have to remember about that statement, that second statement, the 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:41.920 alleged confession, is that he asked for legal counsel and 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:46.760 he didn't get it. That he protested many times and 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:53.160 didn't want to continue answering questions, and that was ignored. Now, 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:57.680 these two issues alone led the judge to strike much 0:13:57.720 --> 0:14:00.960 of that statement from the record, not allow the jury 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:05.240 to hear it. But there were other issues. There's issues 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:09.520 of Kevin's literacy and the fact that he really couldn't 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:13.240 read or write, so the paperwork that was presented in 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:17.120 front of him that was supposed to be words from 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:20.320 his own mouth or that he was supposed to have 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:26.240 written himself, were not his. There's also the factors like 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:31.320 police introducing evidence that just wasn't true. So were they 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:35.680 trying to lead Kevin to make a claim or a 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:41.200 statement that would implicate himself and of course Kevin didn't understand, 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:44.760 as most of us in the public don't, the fact 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:47.880 that we can implicate ourselves in a crime, and when 0:14:47.880 --> 0:14:52.840 you've been denied legal counsel, that's even more likely to occur. 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:57.240 And I think what really brings this home is that 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:01.120 it wasn't just Kevin that was treated in this way, 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:05.600 every witness in the case. And we have to remember 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:09.680 this is very important that even those who played no 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:14.840 role in the assault, some who weren't even present when 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:18.720 it took place and who weren't there that night, were 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:22.400 treated in the same way by police. And so we 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:26.480 have people like Wayne Saunders, who was hounded and hounded 0:15:26.520 --> 0:15:30.640 for months to give a statement, and by his own admission, 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:36.520 not only was he illiterate, he was constantly intoxicated, and 0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:41.880 he said himself he couldn't remember what happened, what he 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:44.960 saw or what he didn't see, and he just couldn't 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:47.800 give a proper statement, and yet he was pursued by 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:52.640 the police and harassed until he was willing to just 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:57.000 initial a document. So I think this whole issue of 0:15:57.040 --> 0:16:01.840 there being a confession was something that changed drastically from 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:05.200 when we first heard of the case and when we 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:09.280 first began to look into it until where we are today, 0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:12.760 which is that there really is no confession, and that 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:18.320 the statement that does exist is extremely problematic, and that 0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:23.720 all the witness statements are tainted by the issues of literacy, 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:30.880 the issues of intoxication, the issues of threats, the issues 0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:35.720 of coercion, and the fact that the crime scene and 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:39.840 those witnesses weren't secured in a manner that they should have. 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:44.040 Do you think the confession played a big part in 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:48.200 the trial, even though going through it it seems amazing 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:50.800 that it was even extensive. A big chunk of it 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:54.440 was actually thrown out by the judge. But even though 0:16:54.800 --> 0:17:00.320 he never actually confesses to killing Linda, do you think 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:02.520 the confession did play a major part in the trial, 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:05.760 that the jury did take it take it to heart. 0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:09.720 I think it did. And I think this is where 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:14.080 we have to examine the media role, and that is 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:17.919 something we'll do more next year, which is that the 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:21.600 jury were free to go home every night. We have 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:25.080 to remember that in a regional town you tend to 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:30.520 have one newspaper, one local news station on the television, 0:17:31.600 --> 0:17:35.000 and a small number of radio stations. And while the 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:37.800 judge might have struck much of this from the record. 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:41.399 The media took it upon themselves to report things that 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:48.520 just weren't true, and I think that certainly influenced the jury, 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:51.160 and we know that because of the questions they would 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:55.440 later ask the judge. Again, that's something we'll explore next year. 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:59.920 But I have no doubt that the belief on the 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:04.280 jury's behalf that there was some confession, even if they 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:08.040 didn't get to see it, that it had been made 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:10.000 and therefore that was enough. 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:14.840 Now, in this series, we actually had two quite well 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:19.360 known interviewees, didn't we Pat McGuinness over in America and 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:23.520 Phil Dickey, who is very well known in Australia. How 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:26.719 much did you learn from being able to speak to 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:29.240 those two guys in relation to Kevin Henry's case. 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:35.879 Well, for me, I think it was enormously influential and 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:39.800 also very helpful. I think in talking to Pat McGuinness, 0:18:40.760 --> 0:18:44.000 the defense lawyer from the United States, he's one of 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:50.080 the leading authorities on forced confessions and also on the 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:55.840 way race plays a role in murder trials, the role 0:18:55.880 --> 0:19:00.199 that illiteracy plays. And he's an expert not because he 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:04.840 sits in a university, but because he's tried these cases 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:09.000 as a defense lawyer for more than three decades, and 0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:13.520 he's seen the result of what happens when police don't 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:18.520 do their job, and when police may threaten people, when 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:24.520 police may interview those who are illiterate, intoxicated, mentally or 0:19:24.560 --> 0:19:29.679 physically impaired. So I think he gave great insight into 0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:34.639 not just one case that is highlighted in the movie 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:38.199 Murder on a Sunday Morning that won the Oscar that 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:42.320 features his work, but on his entire body of work. 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:48.000 That what we're explaining about Kevin's confession and the statement 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:52.320 that leads to be an alleged confession, is not at 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:57.080 all unusual. We're not trying to launch a rocket to 0:19:57.160 --> 0:20:00.840 the moon. In fact, what we're exposing is something that 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:04.880 he's known and his colleagues in the United States and 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:08.119 in many other countries around the world have known for decades, 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:13.280 which is that some racial minorities, and in Australia that's 0:20:13.359 --> 0:20:18.439 Aboriginal Australians are targeted in this way and so that 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:23.040 we shouldn't be surprised that this is what occurred. And 0:20:23.119 --> 0:20:26.280 so to give further context to that, I think Phil 0:20:26.320 --> 0:20:30.400 Dickie was very helpful because he is a journalist who 0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:33.960 was at the Courier Mail and exposed the level of 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:37.480 police corruption in Queensland that went all the way to 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:42.600 the top, and his work led to the Fitzgerald inquiry. 0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:47.720 Gives us the background of an environment in Queensland that 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:51.200 would lead police to act in this manner that would 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:55.440 lead to the sort of problems we've described in terms 0:20:55.520 --> 0:21:02.320 of police conduct, the way the entire high judicial system operated. 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:07.639 He also spoke about the way the media operated as well. 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:11.239 So I think to have that content context given to 0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:17.479 us by outside parties who know nothing of the particular case, 0:21:18.320 --> 0:21:22.800 but can give great insight and expert insight into both 0:21:24.000 --> 0:21:27.720 key aspects to the case and also what was happening 0:21:27.800 --> 0:21:31.919 in Queensland at the time, is vitally important both for 0:21:32.080 --> 0:21:37.160 us in investigating this entire matter and for the listeners 0:21:37.200 --> 0:21:42.640 to be able to transport themselves back to nineteen ninety one. 0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:48.439 And speaking of Pat McGinnis and America America's example, I 0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:51.200 mean a lot of Australians I think still think that 0:21:51.240 --> 0:21:55.160 we in a way have a fairer justice system. How 0:21:55.200 --> 0:21:58.080 would you say this case, Kevin Hanrickets, has it changed 0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:02.639 anything to you about how these strange justice system works 0:22:02.680 --> 0:22:04.440 that we on par with America. 0:22:04.520 --> 0:22:08.879 Do you think, well, I think I've been lucky. I 0:22:08.880 --> 0:22:12.359 guess I can say to work on cases in the 0:22:12.440 --> 0:22:18.960 United States, including murder cases and death penalty cases, their 0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:23.200 system is no doubt worse I think as a whole. 0:22:24.440 --> 0:22:29.360 But I think where Australia's system tops theirs in its 0:22:29.520 --> 0:22:35.879 lack of quality, in its unfairness, in its cruelness, in 0:22:35.960 --> 0:22:41.680 the pure lack of justice, is dealing with Indigenous Australians. 0:22:42.840 --> 0:22:47.520 I always held that belief from personal observation as well 0:22:47.560 --> 0:22:52.240 as from my profession, but if anything, this is just 0:22:52.400 --> 0:22:57.800 further enforced that. And speaking to Pat McGuinness both off 0:22:57.800 --> 0:23:02.280 air and on and being able to discuss cases we've 0:23:02.320 --> 0:23:05.679 both worked on, I think it's easy to come to 0:23:05.760 --> 0:23:10.640 that conclusion. And I would really say that while it's 0:23:10.720 --> 0:23:14.919 easy to look at the US system while we are 0:23:14.960 --> 0:23:19.920 constantly bombarded with cases from America, and that's always been 0:23:19.960 --> 0:23:24.040 the way, whether it was back to oj Simpson all 0:23:24.080 --> 0:23:27.720 the way through to modern times with cases like Travon Martin, 0:23:28.920 --> 0:23:32.200 the Australian public pays very little attention to their own 0:23:32.400 --> 0:23:37.000 justice system, and this is one of the reasons that 0:23:37.080 --> 0:23:41.080 these injustices occur is because while our eyes are fixed 0:23:41.080 --> 0:23:45.639 on America and the grave injustices that are committed there, 0:23:46.440 --> 0:23:50.800 they're also happening to our Indigenous population right under our noses. 0:23:51.760 --> 0:23:52.359 And so if. 0:23:52.280 --> 0:23:58.160 Anything, this has galvanized my own beliefs and my own 0:23:58.200 --> 0:24:02.560 efforts in trying to highlight this particular issue further, and 0:24:02.600 --> 0:24:05.840 that is that Australians need to wake up to the 0:24:05.920 --> 0:24:09.560 disgraceful way Indigenous Australians are treated by the police and 0:24:09.600 --> 0:24:11.080 the justice system. 0:24:11.480 --> 0:24:14.680 And there's only been just this week we saw one 0:24:14.720 --> 0:24:20.840 of our young Aboriginal youth up in the Northern Territory. 0:24:21.040 --> 0:24:24.600 Dylan Volla was actually giving evidence towards for the Royal 0:24:24.600 --> 0:24:28.840 Commission into juvenile's attention in the Northern Territory. So there's 0:24:29.000 --> 0:24:32.639 a lot of things that haven't changed in Australia in 0:24:32.680 --> 0:24:35.600 the twenty five years since Kevin Henry has been incarcerated. 0:24:36.720 --> 0:24:39.880 Has there like we haven't had much change given even 0:24:39.960 --> 0:24:44.480 just the current week's events with Dylan Voller testifying. 0:24:45.400 --> 0:24:47.840 Yeah, I think that's right, and I think it's a 0:24:48.000 --> 0:24:53.679 sad reminder that twenty five years after Linda passed away 0:24:54.800 --> 0:24:59.920 and her family, Sandy has a very real and harri 0:25:00.080 --> 0:25:04.040 fit connection to the Royal Commission into Black Deaths in 0:25:04.160 --> 0:25:09.919 custody that those deaths, some four hundred, have continued in 0:25:09.960 --> 0:25:13.320 the last twenty five years, and now we're really seeing 0:25:13.359 --> 0:25:19.600 exposed the treatment of not just Aboriginal men and women 0:25:19.800 --> 0:25:23.960 in the justice system, but Aboriginal children. I think one 0:25:24.000 --> 0:25:27.560 thing we have to remember about Dylan Vola, who spoke 0:25:27.640 --> 0:25:31.280 this week in the Northern Territory Royal Commission, is that 0:25:31.920 --> 0:25:35.400 he was just ten years old when the justice system 0:25:35.480 --> 0:25:39.600 first began to abuse him. Now I've watched this week 0:25:39.720 --> 0:25:44.360 as people climb on their high horse and make all 0:25:44.400 --> 0:25:49.400 sorts of statements about young villain Vola. But I think 0:25:49.400 --> 0:25:54.040 it's very dangerous to condemn a person who was first 0:25:54.080 --> 0:25:59.359 subjected to what I consider to be torture at just 0:25:59.440 --> 0:26:08.200 ten years To expect a child to endure sleep deprivation, 0:26:09.320 --> 0:26:16.360 constant light and dark as a method of intimidating him, 0:26:16.560 --> 0:26:20.560 as a way of showing him that he is being controlled, 0:26:21.440 --> 0:26:25.679 the way physical aggression and violence was used against him, 0:26:26.160 --> 0:26:30.840 the way food and water was withheld from him. People 0:26:30.960 --> 0:26:34.199 may have seen the spit hood and the giitmo like 0:26:34.320 --> 0:26:38.919 treatment that occurred when he was perhaps sixteen years old. 0:26:40.200 --> 0:26:42.600 But we have to really think about a ten year 0:26:42.600 --> 0:26:46.840 old that you know and consider being put them being 0:26:46.880 --> 0:26:51.000 put as Dylan was naked in a cell, denied water, 0:26:51.119 --> 0:26:57.960 in boiling hot conditions, denied food, beaten. To expect that 0:26:58.080 --> 0:27:01.800 this child would come out and be a perfect citizen 0:27:02.560 --> 0:27:05.720 is absurd. And I think the other thing we have 0:27:05.800 --> 0:27:10.800 to remember too, is that Dylan, as a young Aboriginal Australian, 0:27:11.920 --> 0:27:15.680 asked while he was in custody to complete his high 0:27:15.680 --> 0:27:20.960 school certificate. He asked to stay in Alice Springs, both 0:27:21.000 --> 0:27:24.560 where his family and culture is, but also where his 0:27:24.680 --> 0:27:29.200 psychiatrist is located, and his psychiatrists wanted that as well, 0:27:29.960 --> 0:27:38.840 because Dylan suffers adhd IT. And upon that request, he 0:27:39.000 --> 0:27:41.600 was moved the next day to Darwen and he was 0:27:41.720 --> 0:27:46.120 never allowed to complete his education. So again I would 0:27:46.160 --> 0:27:50.160 say to those who are demonizing this young man, think 0:27:50.200 --> 0:27:53.280 about a ten year old you know asked that they 0:27:53.359 --> 0:27:56.600 be subjected to all of that, and then tell me 0:27:56.640 --> 0:27:59.399 the shape they would look in today. And if you 0:27:59.440 --> 0:28:03.639 can honestly say that person would be a perfect individual, 0:28:04.400 --> 0:28:08.919 then fine. Judge mister Vola, and all the children of 0:28:08.960 --> 0:28:12.240 don Dale and judge people like myself who stand up 0:28:12.240 --> 0:28:15.440 for them. But I don't think any reasonable person could 0:28:15.480 --> 0:28:21.480 make that argument. And I think watching that this week 0:28:22.359 --> 0:28:25.720 has taught people a lesson, and I think it leads 0:28:25.760 --> 0:28:29.920 to something that we haven't discussed before, which is that 0:28:30.160 --> 0:28:34.960 Kevin Henry himself was placed in juvenile attention and that 0:28:35.080 --> 0:28:38.560 was at the age of twelve or thirteen, and his 0:28:38.720 --> 0:28:44.440 crime then was stealing a couple of lollies. Now, how 0:28:44.440 --> 0:28:47.640 many twelve or thirteen year olds have done exactly that? 0:28:49.240 --> 0:28:52.680 And then ask yourself how many of them then went 0:28:52.800 --> 0:28:57.560