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Speaker 1: This is a podcast about failure with me. Lola Berry, author, nutritionist,

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Speaker 1: and yoga teacher join me as we get to know

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Speaker 1: these guests and learn about how their failures have ultimately

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Speaker 1: shaped their dreams. Welcome to Fearlessly Failing with Lola Berry.

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Speaker 1: Welcome Part two. David Gillespie, So you loved episode one.

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Speaker 1: We learned loads about health, we learn about the brain,

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Speaker 1: we learn about teaming toxic people. We're going to carry

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Speaker 1: on that conversation, so we'll be still talking about psychopaths.

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Speaker 1: So fascinating. I literally could just sit with him and

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Speaker 1: talk for hours and hours and hours at an end,

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Speaker 1: but we have a podcast to produce, right, So in

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Speaker 1: this episode, we really talk about his brand new book,

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Speaker 1: Brain Reset, think addiction, anxiety, depression, and the role that

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Speaker 1: uncertainty plays in that. But we really get into the

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Speaker 1: nitty gritty. We're talking dope, mean, we're talking gabba. If

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Speaker 1: you want to learn loads about your brain, this is

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Speaker 1: the episode.

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Speaker 2: For you, Big Love.

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Speaker 1: Part two. David Gillespie, Welcome back.

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Speaker 2: I'm back.

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Speaker 1: I was just saying to David, I could took all

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Speaker 1: day about psychopathy and psychopaths. Okay, so back to the

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Speaker 1: character traits we've got charming, we've got self obsessed, fluent liars.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so lying is usually difficult for most humans, not

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Speaker 2: that they can't do it, but just that it causes

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Speaker 2: emotional turmoil to do it because they know they're telling

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Speaker 2: something that isn't true. And that's how light detectors work,

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Speaker 2: is they pick up on the body responding to that

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Speaker 2: emotional term more of the stress characteristics and so on.

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Speaker 2: Psychopaths have no qualms lying because they don't perceive it

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Speaker 2: as a lie. They perceive it as something that is

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Speaker 2: necessary to be said to get you to do something,

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Speaker 2: and so what if it's not true. In their view,

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Speaker 2: truth is in the eye of the beholder. From their perspective,

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Speaker 2: truth is whatever is necessary. And so we saw it

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Speaker 2: a lot with you know, the likes of Donald Trump.

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Speaker 2: You know, he did that all the time, is constantly lying.

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Speaker 2: I don't know the count at the end of his presidency,

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Speaker 2: but there were hundreds of lies a day that were

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Speaker 2: be encountered by the newspapers. And for him, he would say, well, so.

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Speaker 1: He was fascinating, so fascinating to watch because yeah, he'd

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Speaker 1: get caught out and not care. It was very fascinating.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't matter. And most psychopaths feel that way. That's

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Speaker 2: why they don't experience fear in the sense of fear

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Speaker 2: of consequences. Yes, so they have no fear. You can't

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Speaker 2: threaten a psychopath because they don't care what you might do.

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Speaker 2: They only care what you are doing. So if you

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Speaker 2: make a threat towards a psychopath, they will believe you

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Speaker 2: when you do it. Otherwise you're wasting your breath.

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Speaker 1: Wow, Oh, this is so interesting. There's a wonderful book.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you know this. I train in

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Speaker 1: acting and we got told to read a book called

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Speaker 1: mind Hunter, which was written in the seventies by a

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Speaker 1: detective that interviewed serial killers and it was an aim

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Speaker 1: to figure out human behavior and why killers would go

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Speaker 1: back to victims bodies and things like that, because there

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Speaker 1: was often like sex was intertwined with the reward of

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Speaker 1: the murder. It was anyway fascinating and the way that

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Speaker 1: you talk about like this fearlessness and it's all about

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Speaker 1: you playing along with it, like it's all control and

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Speaker 1: manipulation and then just fascinating.

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Speaker 2: Well, their view of other humans, they know they're different.

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Speaker 2: They might not have a label for it, but they

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Speaker 2: know they're different. Yeah, they know that from the very

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Speaker 2: earliest reactions where they don't feel things that clearly affect

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Speaker 2: other people. But their view of other humans is that

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Speaker 2: they have a weakness, which is all this emotional stuff

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Speaker 2: and they care about other humans and that's a very

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Speaker 2: big weakness as far as they're concerned, and from their perspective,

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Speaker 2: that's just a leverage point. So it's to them, humans

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Speaker 2: are just a herd of farm animals to be used,

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Speaker 2: you know, however they see fit.

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Speaker 1: Can we quickly talk spindle neurons because I love spindle neurons.

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Speaker 1: I have a weird love of Orca whales. They're my

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Speaker 1: favorite animals in the world, and they have more spin

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Speaker 1: all neurons than most.

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Speaker 2: Most other creatures, but still not even in the same

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Speaker 2: country as humans.

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Speaker 1: Well, they stick with their family, I think, whereas we

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Speaker 1: can interact with strangers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So elephants and whales have amongst the

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Speaker 2: most dense spindle neurons for anything other than humans. So

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Speaker 2: spindle neurons are very very long neurons that connect our

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Speaker 2: amygdala to our frontal cortex, which is our upper order

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Speaker 2: control center, the bit that's developed during teen years. So

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Speaker 2: this is where we get impulse control, behavior management, all

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Speaker 2: that sort of stuff. So these are the neurons that

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Speaker 2: connect them, and there's a thing that's measured called spindle

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Speaker 2: neuron density, which is how many of them there are

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Speaker 2: connecting the two and so there's a normal level of them,

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Speaker 2: and there's a thinned out level of them, which is

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Speaker 2: whats psychopaths have. And then there's a too thick level

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Speaker 2: of them. So there's a strong association with having too

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Speaker 2: many of them with things like depression and so on,

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Speaker 2: which is that you feel too much. Yes, so you

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Speaker 2: feel too much, and psychopaths feel too little because they

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Speaker 2: have so few spindle neurons. Now, in the animal kingdom,

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Speaker 2: as you were saying before, up until about the age

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Speaker 2: of four, are talented possessor of spinal on neurons, but

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Speaker 2: not exceptional.

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Speaker 1: The baby psychopaths.

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Speaker 2: So animals are probably psychopaths. So the tiger I described

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Speaker 2: in the start of the book is a psychopath. He

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Speaker 2: doesn't care what you think of him. It doesn't care

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Speaker 2: how you feel, doesn't care how you feel about being eaten.

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Speaker 2: These are really relevant considerations, the same as you might

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Speaker 2: have about mowing the lawn. You don't care about the

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Speaker 2: feelings of the grass. So that's how animals, the animal

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Speaker 2: kingdom in general feels us, even elephants and whales. But

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Speaker 2: they do have slightly more spin on neurons than most animals,

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Speaker 2: so they can, as you say, work together in groups

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Speaker 2: of family.

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Speaker 1: They still mourn when people die. This is my obsession

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Speaker 1: with because that we could do a whole podcast.

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Speaker 2: But and a baby human up to about the age

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Speaker 2: of four is in the same category. So spin on

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Speaker 2: neurons are not developed prior to birth, they're developed after birth,

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Speaker 2: so the density increases fairly significantly in humans, although only

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Speaker 2: after the age of four. So up to the age

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Speaker 2: of four, children are essentially psychopaths. Now, anyone who's ever

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Speaker 2: had any hinted it with a baby would agree with

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Speaker 2: me wholeheartedly. They have no care about your feelings. They

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Speaker 2: have their needs and they need to be met. That's right, exactly,

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Speaker 2: And so you say that to a room full of parents,

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Speaker 2: they all agree absolutely wholeheartedly. And that's the same thing. Now,

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Speaker 2: around the age of four, humans have a massive change

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Speaker 2: in their brains to architecture, which starts to seriously increase

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Speaker 2: the number of spindle on your owns and the density

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Speaker 2: of them in most of us, and so we go

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Speaker 2: off the planet like we got off the scale in

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Speaker 2: terms of Yeah, all the other animals are just weigh

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Speaker 2: down the bottom of the chart and there's humans massively

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Speaker 2: above them. And that's what happens from four onwards, except

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Speaker 2: for psychopaths. Psychopaths say exactly the same as the four

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Speaker 2: year old. So from then on they're different to everybody

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Speaker 2: else in that they don't have the architecture which delivers empathy. Now,

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Speaker 2: spind on your own are interesting because they appear in

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Speaker 2: other animals, but they're used for different things. This is

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Speaker 2: something that human evolution has adapted for working in groups,

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Speaker 2: which is the empathy bit. So other animals have them,

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Speaker 2: but they use them for things like much better senses

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Speaker 2: of smell, or much better senses of hearing, or much

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Speaker 2: better eyesight, because these things are great at discerning things,

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Speaker 2: much much fine fine grades of things. What humans have

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Speaker 2: adapted them for is discerning emotion.

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Speaker 1: And that's why like dogs can smell fear, we can't.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, lots of animals have much better sensory powers

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Speaker 2: than we do because they haven't adapted it's been on

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Speaker 2: your own for something else. They've adapted them for something

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Speaker 2: that helps them survive. The thing that helps humans survive

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Speaker 2: is working together. I mean, think about it as an

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Speaker 2: apex predator. We're a pretty crap atx predator, no venom,

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Speaker 2: no armor, and I mean a crocodile could take us

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Speaker 2: one on one easy, and yet we own the planet.

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Speaker 2: Why because we work well with strangers. Because we can

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Speaker 2: do that, we win. And the thing that allows us

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Speaker 2: to do that is spind on your owns.

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Speaker 1: So that four, at the age of four, when impaths

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Speaker 1: become humans and empaths and psychopaths basically stay at that lesson.

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Speaker 1: Is that just biological luck of the draw or can

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Speaker 1: it be something's happened at that day.

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Speaker 2: We have absolutely no idea. We know it happens, but

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Speaker 2: the science at the moment cannot tell you why. Why

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Speaker 2: does it happen for some people and not for others?

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Speaker 2: Why does eighty percent of the population develops spindle on

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Speaker 2: your owns and empathy and twenty percent don't. So population

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Speaker 2: is about twenty percent. I mean, this is hard to measure,

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Speaker 2: but that's the current estimate.

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Speaker 1: And no one's going to admit it, are they.

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Speaker 2: Well, no one will admit it, you know, there are

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Speaker 2: probably many what people would call pro social psychopaths, which

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Speaker 2: are people who know they are psychopathic but are self

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Speaker 2: aware enough to say, you know what, I don't want

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Speaker 2: to do. I don't want to have disregard for other humans.

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Speaker 2: I just want to be a normal person. And those

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Speaker 2: people you'll never detect. So it's yeah, whereas there are

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Speaker 2: some who say, you know what, I don't care. I

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Speaker 2: can get some advantage by manipulating this human or using

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Speaker 2: this human, so why not?

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Speaker 1: So this is the bit that got me. And because

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Speaker 1: i work in the entertainment industry and I've just started studying.

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Speaker 2: The grounds are pretty thick on the psychopasts are pretty

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Speaker 2: thick on the ground there, right.

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Speaker 1: But also I've just started studying acting because I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: creative following this passion. Then I read that this list

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Speaker 1: of the job so CEO lawyer. Well, we've got a

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Speaker 1: lawyer in the room entertainment. We both work at the

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Speaker 1: entertainment industry. Surgeon's really interesting versus a doctor who's not

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Speaker 1: a GP, who's not.

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Speaker 2: The interesting thing there is that if you think about

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Speaker 2: the job of a surgeon, they've got to intentionally harm

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Speaker 2: another human, cut them to get your result, Yeah, that's

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Speaker 2: their job. If that's hard for a normal human to do,

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Speaker 2: to intentionally hurt another human being, even with the best

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Speaker 2: of motivations, you're still intentionally hurting them, and so you

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Speaker 2: do need that normal breaking system that would stop you

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Speaker 2: doing that. Dulled a bit, which is probably I suspect

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Speaker 2: why you see such high percentage.

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Speaker 1: As insurgents, politicians, actors.

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Speaker 2: Well, I was like, wow, well you think about something.

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Speaker 2: Both of these those things are about manipulating people's emotions.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: What it was that saying. I don't know who said it,

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Speaker 2: but that politics is acting for ugly people so good

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Speaker 2: that they're both about manipulating other people, and psychfasts are

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Speaker 2: extremely good at that because they have to spend their

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Speaker 2: whole lives accurately reading other people or else they're done for.

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Speaker 1: This is where I get so part of me goes

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Speaker 1: if I feel like I'm confined to buy a psychopath

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Speaker 1: m First of all, I'm like, oh, they can't do

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Speaker 1: that to me. I'm going to confront them. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to call them out on their bs. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: probably the worst thing that you could.

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Speaker 2: Do your best to actively disengage from them. You just

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Speaker 2: don't want to get tangled up with them. And if

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Speaker 2: you get a choice not to be, then don't is

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Speaker 2: the easy answer. And if you don't have a choice,

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Speaker 2: brick wall, absolute brick wall the whole time. Show them,

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Speaker 2: give them no sense that anything they've done or said

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Speaker 2: is getting an emotional reaction from you.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, that's easier said than that. I love. There's

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Speaker 1: this bit where you just literally talk about facing a

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Speaker 1: psychopath in the workplace and you're like, number one, don't

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Speaker 1: hire them. Yes, number two, be alert in their presence

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Speaker 1: because you're being manipulated. Chances are three psychopath. Psychopath proof

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Speaker 1: your organization, And often you say that's with transparency and honestly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely do everything in the open, no secret meetings.

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Speaker 1: I love this quote that you found from Dan Jacobs

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Speaker 1: of Apple Inc. It's better to have a hole in

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Speaker 1: your team than an asshole in your team.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 1: I absolutely love it. I also did that. Am I

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Speaker 1: a replicant test from Yeah? I got twenty one percent?

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Speaker 1: Does that mean that's pretty low?

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Speaker 2: Right? It does seem pretty low? Yeah, yeah, so probably

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Speaker 2: not a replicant.

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Speaker 1: Well as I was, Well, so people listening replicans like

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Speaker 1: humans but don't have empathies.

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Speaker 2: That's right. So replicant in Blade Runner, replicants are basically psychopaths.

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Speaker 2: They look and behave like humans in every respect except

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Speaker 2: they have no empathy. And so in the movie, they

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Speaker 2: have a machine that they pointed the replicans' eyes and

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Speaker 2: then they asked them a series of questions which should

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Speaker 2: create an emotional response, and if it doesn't, then they

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Speaker 2: judge it to be a replica.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so I'm not one. We can safely say that

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Speaker 1: they did do.

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Speaker 2: The replican test on some candidates for office in Los Angeles,

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Speaker 2: I think, and I think that they found a very

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Speaker 2: high percentage of them would have failed the replicant test of.

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Speaker 1: Course, of course. Okay, So the only thing that got

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Speaker 1: like stumped me a little bit is as I was

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Speaker 1: reading the bit about narcissism, and I was like, well,

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Speaker 1: I've got a few of these traits, Like I've got

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Speaker 1: a social media account I put it selfies.

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Speaker 2: Narcissism is not it's often they're often called narcissists. But

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Speaker 2: you can be a narcissist and not be a psychopath.

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Speaker 2: But you can't be a psychopath and not be a narcissist.

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Speaker 1: Correct.

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Speaker 2: So that's where the difference is, you know, there's plenty

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Speaker 2: of people who really like themselves. Doesn't make them psychopaths,

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Speaker 2: you know, And in particularly in an age where you're

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Speaker 2: encouraged to like yourself and promote yourself all the time,

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Speaker 2: even if you're not a narcissist, you look like one.

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Speaker 1: And that need for validation outside of yourself and adoration,

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Speaker 1: it's so so interesting. Okay, as you can tell everyone,

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Speaker 1: I'm listening to this, I am obsessed with this book, David.

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Speaker 1: You can see how much like I've got highlighted codes.

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Speaker 1: I'm quite a nerd over here, which brings me to

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Speaker 1: my next nerding out. I pested and pested your publicist

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Speaker 1: for an advance.

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Speaker 2: You have maybe the first one in Australia there, I'd say.

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Speaker 1: Honestly, I was literally writing like I reckon every few days,

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Speaker 1: be like, hey, where's my copy? I need to get

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Speaker 1: it read? Really really cool. So for people listening, it's

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Speaker 1: officially out now. It's called The Brain Reset, Break the

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Speaker 1: cycle of anxiety, depression, stress and addiction and restore mental

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Speaker 1: calm and stability. You got me signed me up because

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Speaker 1: I think everybody can relate to this in some way.

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Speaker 1: I'm really excited to talk about addiction and how we

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Speaker 1: are all holding my phone in one hand as I

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Speaker 1: say this to you, I'm a science and brain nerd too,

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Speaker 1: so I just love everything you go into in this book.

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Speaker 1: I was like, what's delta foss b? I love it all,

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Speaker 1: so just go for it. Give me this book.

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Speaker 2: The key thing is, in fact, that is delta foss b,

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Speaker 2: which is a switch in our brain that helps our

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Speaker 2: brain adapt to a high dopamine environment. So let's talk

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Speaker 2: about what dove mean is and why it matters. As

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Speaker 2: I said to you before, with team brain, dopamines gets

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Speaker 2: us on edge. It's what makes us move. If it

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Speaker 2: weren't for dopamine, we could have a beautiful meal. We

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Speaker 2: could be starving to death, have a beautiful meal on

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Speaker 2: the other side of our table from us, and we

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Speaker 2: wouldn't be bothered to even lift our hand and access

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Speaker 2: and try to eat it. That's dopamine makes us do that.

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Speaker 2: It motivates us. It says, okay, muscles sharpen up, Okay,

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Speaker 2: brain sharpen up, get your act together. We need to

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Speaker 2: get this thing. And that's what it does. Don't mean

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Speaker 2: motivates us, It puts us on edge. It shuts down

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Speaker 2: a lot of unnecessary things like our immune system and

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Speaker 2: so on, and gets us targeted on that reward. Get

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Speaker 2: that reward, which is can be you know, the thing's

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Speaker 2: essential for survival, like food, sex, and socializing with other humans.

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Speaker 2: Because as we've discussed before, if you don't do that,

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Speaker 2: you won't last very long. So that produces a dope

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Speaker 2: meaning spike, and that's all good, that's all by design.

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Speaker 2: If we didn't do it, we wouldn't survive. Now other

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Speaker 2: things produced. Dope means spikes too, which is because of

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Speaker 2: the body's kind of lazy and gets a lot of

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Speaker 2: use out of various hormones. It uses exactly the same

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Speaker 2: thing for danger. So when there's a threat approaching, we

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Speaker 2: get a dope meane spike to sharpen us up. You know, right,

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Speaker 2: muscles sharpen up, brain sharpen up, legs moving fast now

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Speaker 2: get out of here. Don't means doing that too, So

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Speaker 2: it can motivate us towards reward and away from danger.

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Speaker 2: Same thing, all working by design. It's also a powerful

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Speaker 2: way to learn. It's the way we learn best, which

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Speaker 2: is it engraves the learning in our brain. So when

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Speaker 2: we touch that hot saucepan when we're two years old,

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Speaker 2: we will never do it again.

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Speaker 1: Haven't you said something like if we learn something in

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Speaker 1: a lecture, we retain like five percent or something, but

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Speaker 1: by doing it, yes, seventy five. And then if you

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Speaker 1: actually have to show someone something right, it's like.

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Speaker 2: Ninety exactly yes, because that means you've remembered it and

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Speaker 2: able to communicate. But so dopaman's part of our learning system,

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Speaker 2: it's part of our reward system, it's part of our

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Speaker 2: fear system, and it all works perfectly fine as long

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Speaker 2: as we don't mess with it. Now, the way it

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Speaker 2: works is that it's comparing the required dopamine level to

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Speaker 2: a preset value, which is te delta foss B. Now

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Speaker 2: deltapos b is just preset, and it's based on our environment,

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Speaker 2: which is, you know, you're going to encounter something that

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Speaker 2: produces dopamine six times a day, so delta foss B

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Speaker 2: is set at level six. You're going to encounter it

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Speaker 2: two times a day, so it's set at level two

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Speaker 2: for you. So it's to make sure that you're not

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Speaker 2: overreacting to things or underreacting to things. It's set to

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Speaker 2: the expected level in your environment. And now what addiction

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Speaker 2: does is mess with that because when we expose ourselves

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Speaker 2: to repeated high frequency hits of dopamine. So this is

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Speaker 2: not the kind of thing you could do in real life.

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Speaker 2: You couldn't have sex enough in a day to make

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Speaker 2: a difference to this, but you could watch porn enough

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Speaker 2: in a day to make a difference to this. You

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Speaker 2: couldn't risk your life enough in a day to make

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Speaker 2: a difference, but you could play a game that simulated

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Speaker 2: risking your life every ten minutes, and that would make

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Speaker 2: a difference. So it's frequency. As you dial up the

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Speaker 2: frequency of dopamine hits, then that delta hoss fiest, which

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Speaker 2: starts to switch, starts to go up, up and up

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Speaker 2: and up. It says, oh, okay, we're in an environment

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Speaker 2: where we're going to get a lot of dopamine all

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Speaker 2: the time. We're going to risk our lives every ten

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Speaker 2: minutes all day long. Therefore we are getting instead of

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Speaker 2: six hits a day, we're getting ten thousand hits a day.

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Speaker 2: So that has to be dialed right up. So the

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Speaker 2: switch dials up, and that's a perfectly normal reaction to

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Speaker 2: body's just saying, okay, fair enough, we're obviously in an

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Speaker 2: environment where we get a lot of dopa mean hits

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Speaker 2: and that's all good. Now, that switch is a relatively

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Speaker 2: long lived switch for things in humans, in that it

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Speaker 2: takes about three months to decay back down to the normal.

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Speaker 2: So every time you get it a hit up, it's

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Speaker 2: like a ratchet. It goes up and it will slowly

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Speaker 2: decay back down. So say that all started happening, You've

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Speaker 2: got huge numbers of dopamin hits. For whatever reason, you

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Speaker 2: went on a hunt or something and you were risking

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Speaker 2: your life every five minutes, and so you'd have to

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Speaker 2: be up on the edge all the time. It would

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Speaker 2: adjust up, but then you went back to normal life.

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Speaker 2: After three months, it will all be back down. It

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Speaker 2: would have adjusted to the normal environment. Everything would be

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Speaker 2: go okay. What we do with addiction is we mess

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Speaker 2: with that by artificially increasing the number of dopamine hits,

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Speaker 2: by interacting with apps that do that, by taking drugs

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Speaker 2: that do that. They all stimulant drugs do exactly the

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Speaker 2: same thing. Cocaine will give your dopamine hit, cigarettes will

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Speaker 2: give you a dopamine hit. Alcohol give you not yes, okay, yes,

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Speaker 2: but not much.

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Speaker 1: Making me feel not too guilty about my mourning.

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Speaker 2: Well, I have plenty of morning coffees. I do talk

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Speaker 2: about caffeine in the world, and it's very, very mild.

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Speaker 2: It's not even on the same scale. And while people

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Speaker 2: say they're addicted to caffeine, and some people probably show

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Speaker 2: signs of it in that if they don't get it,

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Speaker 2: they have withdrawal symptoms, a headache. Yeah it's mild. It

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Speaker 2: really is mild, and it doesn't have any known bad

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Speaker 2: side effects other than the headache. But I do go

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Speaker 2: through in a lot of detailers you will now know

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Speaker 2: all of the things that can give you a dopamine

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Speaker 2: hit and the degree to which they can or can't.

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Speaker 2: So what's really addictive, what's not, and so talk about

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Speaker 2: all of those things. But at the end of the day,

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Speaker 2: what it comes down to is when you push that

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Speaker 2: switch up, when you are not getting the dopamine hit,

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Speaker 2: your dopamine level is too low. Because remember that what

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Speaker 2: that switch is doing is telling you what's a normal

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Speaker 2: level of dopamine. And when dopamine is too low, then

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Speaker 2: you are in a state of craving. So the body says,

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Speaker 2: I need to get that, I need to get the

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Speaker 2: domain level up to where the Della foss B says

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Speaker 2: it should be. And you're in a state of craving,

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Speaker 2: and that state of craving is about producing more and

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Speaker 2: more dopamine making you more and more anxious about the

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Speaker 2: fact that you're not receiving that hit.

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Speaker 1: So interesting, is this where the sugar story.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is where it overlaps with sugar. Is

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Speaker 2: sugar has this effect.

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Speaker 1: Much more than caffeine, right, much more. Yes, you're making

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Speaker 1: me feel good about my coffees?

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Speaker 2: Can you tell? As long as you gonna put sugar

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Speaker 2: in the coffee, you're fine. So what I go through

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Speaker 2: in a lot of detail in this book is how

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Speaker 2: does that mechanism exactly work? So what is going on

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Speaker 2: that turns addiction into anxiety and then if the anxiety

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Speaker 2: is left there for long enough into depression, and then

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Speaker 2: if that's left there long enough into schizophrenia, well, into

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Speaker 2: psychosis and then schizophrenia. Yeah, so that's what that part

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Speaker 2: that path is about, and in this book I go

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Speaker 2: through it in a lot of detail. I won't bore

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Speaker 2: your listeners with it. They can read it if they

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Speaker 2: want to. But we've known for a long time there's

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Speaker 2: nothing controversial about saying addiction leads to anxiety, leads to depression,

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Speaker 2: leads to suicide. But here we go through.

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Speaker 1: Why yeah, and that stuff. All my highlights all around,

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Speaker 1: especially around the connection between anxiety and depression, because as

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Speaker 1: you said at the beginning of our chat, in even

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Speaker 1: teenage brains, there's such a prevalence of it right now,

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Speaker 1: and even for me for years, I would never have

432
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:12,879
Speaker 1: said I get anxiety ever.

433
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,399
Speaker 2: Then, And in the last year we've just ramped it

434
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:17,879
Speaker 2: massively because I've talked about the addiction side of this.

435
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,120
Speaker 2: But the other side of this is the uncertainty side.

436
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:25,040
Speaker 2: So the more uncertain your life is, the more on

437
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 2: airedge you are at all times. Now, there's lots of

438
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:29,920
Speaker 2: ways to make your life uncertain. Not have enough money

439
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:36,640
Speaker 2: is the principal way. So that uncertainty factor puts us

440
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 2: The other side of the equation, which remembered opening is

441
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,200
Speaker 2: also produced by fear or by running away from danger. Well,

442
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 2: that works just as effectively as addiction. So whether you're addicted,

443
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,920
Speaker 2: or whether you're living in an uncertain and precarious environment

444
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 2: no stable housing, no income, or in fear of a virus,

445
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 2: then that is the same effect as being addicted worse.

446
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 2: The brain doesn't know the difference, so it says the

447
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:04,120
Speaker 2: doll to foss beast, which regardless whether it's caused by uncertainty,

448
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 2: whether it's caused by addiction, and means that it's much

449
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 2: easier to take an uncertain person and addict them, and

450
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,439
Speaker 2: it's much easier to cause chaos in the life of

451
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 2: a person who's an addict.

452
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:16,680
Speaker 1: I love that you bought up the last year because

453
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,879
Speaker 1: there's a podcast I listened to called The Armchair Expert

454
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 1: with actor in America called Dak Shepp, and he had

455
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,359
Speaker 1: a singer called Mackelmoor on recently. You would definitely know

456
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,440
Speaker 1: the songs or your kids would be huge. And both

457
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 1: of them relapsed with their addictions over COVID and over lockdown,

458
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 1: and one went to opioids and the other opioids versay

459
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 1: and the.

460
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 2: Other went to And that's a natural consequence of the

461
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 2: uncertainty would have been increasing the old foss B levels,

462
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 2: which makes them easier to addict. So you know, it's

463
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 2: a natural flow from uncertainty and precariousness of life will

464
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 2: put you into a state where you're much easier to addict. Scary, well,

465
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 2: you know, The interesting the thing is not so much

466
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 2: when you know how it works. Yes, It's what makes

467
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 2: it scary is when it's like the random sniper. You know,

468
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,399
Speaker 2: anyone could be killed at any time or something, but

469
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 2: when And this is why police always go to the

470
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,919
Speaker 2: trouble when they report something that bad has happened, of

471
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 2: saying it was known to the victim. The reason they

472
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 2: say that is so people aren't terrified of this could

473
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 2: happen to anyone at any time. And it's the same

474
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 2: with this the story that's put out there about a

475
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 2: lot of mental illnesses. It could happen to any of

476
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:32,920
Speaker 2: us at any time. Beware. And what I found reassuring

477
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,360
Speaker 2: about this research is once you know what the mechanism

478
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,920
Speaker 2: looks like and how it works and how to stop

479
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 2: it working like that, you have a lot more certainty in.

480
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 1: Your own life totally, And I love that. It's like

481
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 1: acknowledgment is the first kind of like power, and you

482
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 1: talk about that as well.

483
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 2: Absolutely, you have to, you have to realize it, and

484
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 2: a lot of people can when they're asked to. Yeah,

485
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 2: a lot of people will happily do an addictive behavior

486
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,719
Speaker 2: without thinking about it too much. But then if they

487
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 2: step back from themselves and look at themselves and say, wow,

488
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,880
Speaker 2: I really am spending a lot of time doing that, yeah,

489
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 2: and maybe I should stop. And then when they try

490
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:19,199
Speaker 2: to stop and realize that they can't, that's when the

491
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 2: realization often sets in that says, oh, wow, this is

492
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,680
Speaker 2: something that's actually outside my control. I thought I could stop,

493
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 2: but I can't. Yeah. So that's the point where you

494
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 2: need to really understand how it works and how.

495
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 1: To stop it.

496
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 2: I love it.

497
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 1: I remember I've worked for many years on my mental health.

498
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 1: I'm very passionate about it. And I remember I did

499
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 1: a speaking gig and I didn't want to do it. It

500
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: didn't feel right, and I kind of got taken for

501
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 1: a ride. I got taken a bit advantage on the gig,

502
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 1: and I remember I got off stage and I thought

503
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 1: I was having a heart attack and I was starting

504
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 1: to panic and my palms were sweating, and I got

505
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,440
Speaker 1: through it. Got home. On the way home, I binge

506
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:58,679
Speaker 1: eate like. I went and bought sugar and stuff, and

507
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,440
Speaker 1: I saw my therapist. I was like, what just happened

508
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 1: to me? He goes, well, first of all, you've had

509
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 1: a panic attack. They probably your first anxiety or panic attack,

510
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 1: and is like and then you've turned to your coping

511
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,400
Speaker 1: mechanism when you feel like you're in a state of anxiety,

512
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 1: which is eating.

513
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 2: And it is a coping mechanism and it works because

514
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 2: what happens is that you need Remember I said that

515
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 2: the delta foss Be is too high. That means to

516
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,400
Speaker 2: your body knows how to get that dove mean up,

517
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 2: eat something addictive, assume something. This is why smokers smoke

518
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 2: stress smoking. Smoking is a cure to stress, a short

519
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 2: term cure for the smoker because they do get the

520
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 2: dopamine level up to the level at Delda foss b

521
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,479
Speaker 2: says it should be the trouble is doing that pushes

522
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 2: delta foss Be even higher for.

523
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: Next time and for longer. This thing that I loved

524
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 1: reading about delta foss be because until I read this,

525
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,120
Speaker 1: I had no idea delta. I think delta good room.

526
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 2: Well, look, this is the thing about a lot of

527
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,399
Speaker 2: the research in this book. It's very recently because the

528
00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 2: profession is going through a transition from symptom based knowledge

529
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 2: about how human brains and mental health work through to

530
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,640
Speaker 2: what I would call neurochemical based, which is a real

531
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 2: understanding of the factors in the brain that drive certain things.

532
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 1: Would this be an example of delta foss be staying

533
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 1: high my system? I skydived. I was so scared in

534
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: the lead up did it? I'm telling you I was

535
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 1: on a high for two to three weeks, like full blown.

536
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 1: I could achieve anything. I was waking up earlier, and

537
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: I was thinking as I was thinking about it, I

538
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:31,640
Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, that must have been.

539
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 2: But that's part of the power. And this is where

540
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 2: we get to the bit at the end of the book,

541
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 2: which is about well, what do you do about it? Yes,

542
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 2: and because it's all well and good scaring the crap

543
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 2: out of people, but if you can't tell them why

544
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 2: what to do about it? There's no point. And this

545
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 2: is where you come to okay. With all those things

546
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 2: that you talk about, like the skydiving or going for

547
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 2: a run, they actually naturally increased overman. Yes, so they

548
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 2: help you cope with the fact that your delta foss

549
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 2: B is too high by bringing over me up naturally.

550
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 2: Now I'm not all herbal Gerbil and saying natural is better.

551
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 2: I'm simply saying slower is the key here, brings it

552
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 2: up slower less frequently. It's not as good as just

553
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 2: going and hitting up a stimulant or playing your favorite

554
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 2: computer game, but it's the way of bringing yourself back

555
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 2: down off it. It's the nicotine patch of this sort

556
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 2: of thing, which is okay. So what are the natural

557
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 2: ways that you could do that? Well, Scott oving is

558
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 2: one of them. I wouldn't do that, but you could

559
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 2: do that. The things that require you to focus. In

560
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,959
Speaker 2: order to focus, you need high dove mean levels. So

561
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 2: things that you can do that you know make you focus.

562
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 2: So it might be a hobby, podcasting podcast, something that

563
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 2: makes you really intensely focused that you know, you can't

564
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 2: have other things in your brain while you're doing that.

565
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 2: You really just focus on that thing. So hobbies, solving

566
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 2: hard problems, understanding hard texts or documents or books, or

567
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 2: something like that that you know, this will be different

568
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 2: for every person. Something that you know that when you're

569
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 2: doing that, everything else it goes away because in order

570
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 2: to do that you have to produce high levels of opening.

571
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 2: Another thing that you can use, particularly if you're female,

572
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 2: is groups, getting groups of people. Remember that I said before.

573
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 2: The thing that social media emulates to produce addiction is

574
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 2: in fact a real life thing, which is meeting groups

575
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 2: of people doing things they like and having them tell

576
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 2: you that they like it.

577
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 1: So I've got here written oxytocin equals social connection and trust. Well,

578
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 1: so that's a natural way of feeling that sense of hure.

579
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:39,479
Speaker 2: Which is why And I look through this in when

580
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 2: I look at all the twelve step programs, which are

581
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 2: the only things, by the way, that appear to work

582
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 2: in breaking addictions. Is one of their core things. In fact,

583
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 2: the principal thing is you have to meet in a

584
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 2: group with real people who are experiencing the same thing

585
00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 2: as you once a week. It is high frequency meeting

586
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 2: with groups, and that I believe the science justifies is

587
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 2: a critical component of why those systems work.

588
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: What about relapse, because both they mentioned relapse in those

589
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 1: steps as well.

590
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 2: There's a high probability of relapse. I mean, some of

591
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 2: the probabilities are extraordinarily high. I go through someone's stats

592
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 2: for various things, but high probability. And what you've got

593
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 2: to say about relapse is, don't consider that that's the

594
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,479
Speaker 2: end of the story. It just it happens. You just

595
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 2: do it again. Don't consider, as many addicts do when

596
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 2: they relapse they consider that a good excuse to just

597
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 2: not bother anymore and be able to fall back into

598
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 2: that thing that they wanted to do anyway that the

599
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 2: addiction is driving them to do. You've got to maintain

600
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 2: the rage, if you like, and just start again, and

601
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 2: every time you do, you're one step closer to successfully

602
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 2: breaking the addiction.

603
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 1: And I've heard you say with even sugar addiction, to

604
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 1: start today, like don't read the book.

605
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 2: And be like, oh, I'll finish, I'll just need this

606
00:31:58,720 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 2: borrow chocolate first.

607
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. I did see in one of the twelve star

608
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 1: in one of the guys that you've got in here,

609
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 1: like they do have one last go at.

610
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 2: It as well, and that actually, yeah, now that one

611
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 2: is the British, the Allen Carr one, the British one

612
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 2: which has a meeting, a very long meeting in person,

613
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 2: and they let the people smoke all the way through

614
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 2: the meeting and then they say at the end of

615
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 2: the meeting you are going to have your last cigarette.

616
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 2: This meeting is your last cigarette. Okay, this is it.

617
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 2: It starts now and there's no better time to start

618
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 2: than now.

619
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 1: Yeah. I love it so for people listening that are like, okay,

620
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: listening to David today, I know I've got an addiction.

621
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 1: This has made me kind of see it, whether it

622
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 1: be sugar like. Up until last night, I was like,

623
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: oh yeah, I'm healthy, yes, And I was like, oh no,

624
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 1: But every fourth or fifth day, I know I want

625
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 1: my little treat like, so I would totally have a

626
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: sugar addiction going.

627
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 2: There's the other thing is a lot of people imagine

628
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 2: addiction has a sort of a nasty connotape. It's sort

629
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 2: of a you're a grubby sort of addict. And it's

630
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 2: not that now addiction is pervasive. It's in everybody's pocket,

631
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 2: you have in Anyone can pick up their phone now

632
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 2: and identify four or five pieces of software that have

633
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 2: been written explicitly to addict them. So it's not that

634
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 2: you're going out and meeting dubious types in back alleys

635
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 2: to get addictive drugs. It's that you can pull it

636
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 2: out of your pocket at any minute. And so many

637
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 2: people are walking around mildly addicted to a lot of things,

638
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 2: and it doesn't mean that they're not addicts. It doesn't

639
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 2: mean that they're not putting their brain in a state

640
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 2: of making it more susceptible to anxiety or depression. In fact,

641
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 2: it does mean that, which is why we're seeing the

642
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 2: stats on those things grow so enormously quickly, and they

643
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 2: are really really rapidly and not helped by COVID at all.

644
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 2: In the United States, for example, anxiety, so mental health

645
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 2: issues went from ten percent of the population to thirty

646
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 2: percent of the population in space of a year. And

647
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 2: that is a bad, bad place to be because we

648
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 2: are not going to like what society looks like when

649
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 2: most of us have mental health problems.

650
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: And Melbourne as well with that really long extended lockdown.

651
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 2: And huge growth twenty five percent growth in adolescent anxiety

652
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 2: in that period in Melbourne. So it is a and

653
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 2: that's caused by the uncertainty side of the equation doing

654
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 2: exactly the same time side as addiction, and they feed

655
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 2: off each other. Uncertainty drives addiction, Addiction drives uncertainty.

656
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 1: How do you be okay with uncertainty? Because it's a

657
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:28,799
Speaker 1: given like that?

658
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 2: Well, and I go through that as well, is look

659
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 2: at okay, Well, you've got to look at your life

660
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 2: and say, okay, where are the sources of uncertainty? What

661
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 2: are the things that you can't control? Everything? But there

662
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:39,799
Speaker 2: are things that you can control. So for example, it

663
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 2: could be as simple as saying, well, I get a

664
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 2: power bill once a quarter. That's a thousand dollars, but

665
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 2: they do offer a plan allows me to pay weekly.

666
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 2: So rather than having that random uncertain event that just

667
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 2: drops out of the heavens and destroys my budget, I

668
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 2: can just pay weekly and it's all paid. And so

669
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 2: look for opportunities to increase certainty in your life. And

670
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 2: one of the biggest sources of uncertainty in most people's

671
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 2: lives is money.

672
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. So interesting because I'm a wriskchaser as well, and

673
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 1: so I'm like, oh, I've got a lot of fun

674
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,319
Speaker 1: certainty in my life. But a part of me likes it.

675
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 1: But it's also realizing. And as you talked about Melbourne

676
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 1: and COVID, like my boyfriend I would buy a bottle

677
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: of wine a couple of times a week. Before that,

678
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 1: we would drink once every few months. Yeah, And I

679
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 1: remember I was buying the wine. I knew I was like, oh,

680
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 1: I'm enjoying this on a Tuesday night, but I heard

681
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 1: a lady next to me going, oh my god, it

682
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:34,879
Speaker 1: just takes the pressure off.

683
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's the thing about it. I mean the

684
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 2: thing about all sources of addiction, and this is why

685
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 2: on certainly feeds addiction is the dopamine hit you get

686
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 2: from that wine or from stimulant drug or from software

687
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:53,320
Speaker 2: or whatever actually does help. It helps in that moment moment.

688
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 2: It makes the problem worse long term, but in that

689
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 2: moment it really does help, and that's why people do it.

690
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 2: So that's why they feed each other. The interesting thing too,

691
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 2: there is that one of the things that does help

692
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 2: the brain is staying awake. Staying awake produces more dopamine.

693
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 2: So one of the first signs that there's a problem, yes,

694
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:18,360
Speaker 2: is not being able to sleep.

695
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 1: You would have you would love. One of my acting teachers,

696
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 1: he says that you should know as an actor, no

697
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 1: human does anything unless it benefits them in some way.

698
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 1: Even if you're like, well, I know this cigarette is

699
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:32,840
Speaker 1: not going to make me I'm going to feel guilty

700
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:34,240
Speaker 1: about it in twenty minutes or whatever.

701
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,320
Speaker 2: It's going to immediately it will make me feel better.

702
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,320
Speaker 1: Correct, And so that's what we make all our and

703
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,760
Speaker 1: he said our homework was he goes go and find

704
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 1: something that a human does that doesn't immediately help help

705
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 1: them in some find No one found anything. People initially

706
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 1: said smoking drugs, It's like no, but that brings pleasure,

707
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: that calms them down, and it does. It's fascinating, right,

708
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: humans are so fascinating. Okay, so if we can kind

709
00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 1: of of like.

710
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,760
Speaker 2: But the other thing to remember is it's it's auto control.

711
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 2: So the body knows the nicotine hit will help. And

712
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 2: even though our frontal cortex, the supervisory part of our brain,

713
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 2: says and this is probably bad for us, I probably

714
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 2: shouldn't do this, you'll still pick up the cigarette because

715
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 2: you can only control that stuff for so long.

716
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 1: Well, there's the willpower and I could talk to you

717
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 1: forever about all of this stuff. So basically, uncertainty is

718
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 1: a given, but you can take steps to produce comfortable

719
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:36,240
Speaker 1: within it, like payment plans.

720
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, you can't. Very few people can totally eliminate uncertainty,

721
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 2: and nor would you want to. As I said, this

722
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 2: system works by design to cope with uncertainty and to

723
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 2: cope with pleasure. It's perfectly normal and it works fine.

724
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 2: It's only when you go to extremes in those things

725
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 2: and on the pleasure side of it, by running high

726
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:58,800
Speaker 2: speed simulations like gaming and so on or taking substances

727
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 2: which are designed to manipulate it. And on the other side,

728
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 2: by putting yourself in circumstances where you are increasing uncertainty.

729
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 2: So or a lot of people don't put themselves in circumstance,

730
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 2: but you know, having losing their job or or having

731
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 2: housing insecurity are two of the biggest sources of uncertainty,

732
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 2: you know, for everybody, particularly in Australia.

733
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 1: Oh so interesting, my friend, I could talk to you

734
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 1: all all day. One final thing if someone listening to

735
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 1: this is like, okay, I want to make a change today.

736
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 1: We've gone through about four or five different forks today.

737
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:34,359
Speaker 2: I know.

738
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: What's something that they can do that is free to

739
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 1: do for themselves. They can just like start to feel

740
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:44,320
Speaker 1: probably a little bit more maybe less addicted to whatever

741
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 1: it is. Where everyone listening to this will be in

742
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:47,919
Speaker 1: some way. I would say nine percent people probably gonna

743
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 1: have some kind of sugar addiction or booze.

744
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 2: So if it's if it's a if it's a if

745
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 2: it's a software. So let's say let's take an example

746
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 2: as a hard example. Let's say it's that you're addicted

747
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 2: to social media. Yeah, that you find yourself doom scrolling

748
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:06,720
Speaker 2: three or four hours a day on the scale scrolling

749
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,239
Speaker 2: or just endlessly just scrolling just in the hope that

750
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 2: you'll see something interesting, and you do every now and

751
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 2: then see something interesting or else. That's right. So let's

752
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 2: say you you say, you know, I am spending a

753
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 2: lot of time doing that. Stop is the first thing

754
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 2: to do. Stop. Now, if that's easy, you weren't addicted, okay,

755
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 2: and you can safely pick it up, okay. But if

756
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 2: it's not easy, if you can't put it aside and

757
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,799
Speaker 2: not do that for say a week, not touch it

758
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,319
Speaker 2: for a week, then there is a problem. And that's

759
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 2: the first step recognizing that there is a problem and

760
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 2: what it is, and then what you've got to do

761
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 2: is do something about it. So the first thing to

762
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 2: do about is obviously not do it, but you also

763
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 2: probably need to substitute something else. So something else that's

764
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 2: going to give you a level of dopamine without that,

765
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 2: you were saying the natural that's right. So there's something

766
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:05,240
Speaker 2: else that's most equivalent to using social media is meeting

767
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 2: real people in real life. So try to do that.

768
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:14,239
Speaker 2: Organized to actually meet real people in real life. By

769
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 2: the way, I talk about sort of I would say

770
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 2: the more harmless end of social media, not that it's harmless,

771
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 2: but sort of the every day in like Instagram, Facebook,

772
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 2: and sign But there's the really dangerous end of social

773
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:27,359
Speaker 2: media as well, which isn't really called social media, which

774
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 2: is dating apps, which is sort of like the illegitimate

775
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 2: child of porn and social media, which is it's got

776
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,240
Speaker 2: sex for the men and it's got socialization for the women.

777
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 2: And that's the really dangerous ends of things as well.

778
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 2: And a lot of people would say, yeah, I might

779
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 2: spend three or four hours flipping through that, but that

780
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 2: that can put you into immediately dangerous physical situations. So

781
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 2: there's that as well. Off track a bit, but coming

782
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 2: back to the example.

783
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,839
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you mentioned that because I did dating

784
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,840
Speaker 1: apps for a little while about four years ago. I

785
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 1: met my boyfriend l one, but we were each other's

786
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 1: first match and first date. But before I had it,

787
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 1: I was like, I think I did it for like

788
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 1: one week and didn't never met up with anybody, and

789
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, this is just taking every night

790
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 1: away for it Like it's horrible, like and it just

791
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 1: that you're sucked in. And when you talk about like

792
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 1: social interaction can make you feel I would be getting

793
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 1: a bit socially anxious and not want to be around

794
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 1: real life people because that felt a bit too.

795
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 2: But oddly, the cure to that is to be around

796
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 2: real life to you, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the same

797
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 2: with all phobias and anxieties, which is often the cure

798
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:37,879
Speaker 2: to it is to do.

799
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 1: It exposure therapy.

800
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 2: Well, because in doing that, the brain is adjusting the

801
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 2: anxiety is a maladjustment of the level of threat. So

802
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 2: what you're doing is you're overestimating the threat from the situation,

803
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 2: and the best way to get the body to properly

804
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:57,799
Speaker 2: estimate the threat from the situation is to actually do it. Yeah,

805
00:41:57,880 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 2: and then the body says, oh, okay, I've got to

806
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:03,839
Speaker 2: recalibrate that that was wrong. So yeah, I love it.

807
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,800
Speaker 1: My going about my boyfriend, but he's scared of flying,

808
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 1: and we flew together last week and I was like, dude,

809
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 1: you did good.

810
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 2: He's not dead, he's not.

811
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:14,439
Speaker 1: Exact, but yeah, and that's and my therapist talks about

812
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 1: anxiety being a fear worse than death, Like when you're

813
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:17,399
Speaker 1: in it, you're like.

814
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 2: Oh my god, but it's really I talk about this

815
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 2: affair bidding the ball, which is looking at that calibration thing,

816
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,319
Speaker 2: which is how do we know now a lot about

817
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 2: how that calibration works, and so you know, the lost

818
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 2: calculator involved in this and how it works and how

819
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:35,840
Speaker 2: to change it is really quite interesting.

820
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:38,799
Speaker 1: I love that we can change it though. I love

821
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 1: that you can recalibrate it by going putting yourself in

822
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:43,919
Speaker 1: that situation being like I didn't die.

823
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 2: Well, it's an on the fly calculator. It's meant to

824
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 2: be like that. It's meant so that we properly assess

825
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 2: our environment based on what's actually happening in the environment,

826
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 2: not on what we think might happen in the environment.

827
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 1: I wish you could hang out all day, Dave Gillespie,

828
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 1: our total honor the new book. I'm going to put

829
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:07,399
Speaker 1: links to the new book, The Brain Reset out right now.

830
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 1: I'm also going to put a link into free schools

831
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 1: You're not for profits so that people can learn more

832
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 1: about it as well. And can we do this again? Please?

833
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 2: Absolutely, You're the best.

834
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:25,360
Speaker 1: That's a wrap on another episode of Fearlessly Failing. As always,

835
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,839
Speaker 1: thank you to our guests, and let's continue the conversation

836
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 1: on Instagram. I'm at Yamo Lollaberry This potty my word

837
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 1: for podcast is available on all streaming platforms. I'd love

838
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 1: it if you could subscribe, rate and comment, and of

839
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:44,279
Speaker 1: course spread the love.