1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:01,040 Speaker 1: Hello there. 2 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 2: I am on holidays for a couple of weeks, so 3 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 2: I have hand picked some episodes that have been my 4 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 2: absolute favorites over the last two years to share with you. 5 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 2: I will be back with brand new episodes very soon. 6 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:19,479 Speaker 2: Have you ever noticed that bronze medalists often seem happier 7 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 2: than silver medalists. It seems weird, right, but you also 8 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 2: sort of understand it. If you win bronze, you get 9 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 2: to go home as an Olympic medalist, but if you 10 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 2: win silver, you probably just end up thinking if only 11 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 2: I pushed a little bit harder. Maybe you've felt this yourself, 12 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 2: even if you're not an Olympic athlete. Maybe you've got 13 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:47,880 Speaker 2: a B plus in school, which is a great mark, 14 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 2: but couldn't help thinking about how close. 15 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: You were to an A. 16 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 2: That's regret and it feels well bad. But Dan Pink 17 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 2: says it's and he's got a whole lot of research 18 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 2: to back it up. Dan is the best selling author 19 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 2: of Drive A Whole New Mind, When and Now, The 20 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 2: Power of Regret, How Looking Backwards Moves Us forward. Dan 21 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 2: is one of my favorite authors, and his last appearance 22 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 2: on How I Work was one of my favorite episodes, 23 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 2: so I'm super excited to have him back. We discuss 24 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 2: why having no regrets is not the superpower people think 25 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 2: it is, and how Dan changed his behavior based on 26 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 2: regrets in his own life, and how Dan's approach to 27 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 2: work and motivation has changed since he wrote Drive many 28 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 2: years ago. My name is doctor Amantha Imber. I'm an 29 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 2: organizational psychologist and founder of behavioral science consultancy. Invent Him 30 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 2: and this is how I work a show about how 31 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 2: to help. 32 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: You do your best work. 33 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 2: For the last couple of years, Dan has immersed himself 34 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 2: in the world of regret and the power of this 35 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 2: underrated emotion. So I wanted to know how does regret 36 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:10,959 Speaker 2: inform his day to day decision making. 37 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,919 Speaker 3: It's changed between today and a few years ago. Before 38 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 3: I started doing the research. I mean, I was someone 39 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 3: who sort of thought about regretted something to avoid, but 40 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 3: then when I couldn't avoid it, it really brought me down, 41 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 3: and so then I tried to avoid it even more. 42 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 3: Now I have a better understanding that regret is a powerful, 43 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 3: powerful teacher that regret if we treat it right, not 44 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 3: doing it the way I was doing it, not ignoring it, 45 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 3: not wallowing it, and it can clarify what we value 46 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 3: and instruct us on how to do better. 47 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: And so what are some. 48 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 2: Of the routines, whether they be things that you might 49 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 2: do daily or even annually to like As the result 50 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:00,919 Speaker 2: of investigating Regres. 51 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 3: So, one of the things that I learned was something 52 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 3: and this is this is new to me, that doesn't 53 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 3: mean that it's new. Is something called self compassion, which 54 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 3: I don't know whether you've talked about that on your 55 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 3: show before. When we make mistakes, we tend to be 56 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,399 Speaker 3: brutal on ourselves. When you think about our self talk, 57 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 3: that is the way we talk to ourselves. 58 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 4: It is cruel. 59 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:27,799 Speaker 3: I mean, if I were to broadcast my self talk, 60 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 3: if I were to let you listen in on it, 61 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 3: you would think I was a lunatic. If if I 62 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 3: were to use this the way that I talked to 63 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 3: myself in a workplace, I would be I would be sacked. 64 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 3: And so what we should do is but that's not useful. 65 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 3: There's a lot of research showing that self esteem is 66 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 3: overrated and self criticism is overrated. What's woefully underrated is 67 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 3: something called self compassion. And with self compassion, we should 68 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 3: look at our mistakes and our screw ups and treat 69 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 3: ourselves with kindness rather than contempt. We should recognize that 70 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 3: these mistakes are part of the human condition, that everybody 71 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 3: has them, and we should also recognize that our mistakes 72 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 3: are a moment in our lives, not the full definition 73 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 3: of our lives. So that's been really helpful for me 74 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 3: to actually treat myself with greater compassion. 75 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 2: And so how do you specifically do that, because there 76 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 2: are a few strategies in your book, The Power of Regret, 77 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 2: for I guess giving yourself more self compassion. 78 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: But what do you specifically do? 79 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 3: So I have some regrets, and I've had some regrets 80 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 3: about kindness, and the kindness regrets that I have are 81 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 3: not regrets about having been a bully, having really affirmatively 82 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 3: mistreated people. I don't think I've ever done that. But 83 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 3: I have regrets about, in a weird way, about inaction, 84 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 3: in kindness, in actions. So when I was in school, 85 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 3: when I was in university, when I was a young professional, 86 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 3: there are many situations where people were being excluded, they 87 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 3: weren't being treated fairly, they weren't being treated right. I 88 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 3: wasn't doing the affirmative excluding, but I saw it going 89 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 3: on and I knew it was wrong, and I didn't 90 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 3: do a damn thing, and that bugs me to this day. 91 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 3: Now what do I do with that? So, first of all, 92 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 3: one of the most important things, and this gets a 93 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 3: specific question, is ask yourself a question, do you think 94 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 3: you're the only person who has experienced that regret or 95 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 3: that mistake? And the answer, having collected regrets from all 96 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 3: over the world over the last couple of years, is 97 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 3: absolutely not. And so when I look at my mistakes 98 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 3: and I say say to myself, you know what, You're 99 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 3: not that special. There are a lot of people who 100 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 3: have those kinds of mistakes. That's a way to minimize 101 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 3: their pain and then also to begin a process of 102 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 3: making sense of them. 103 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:53,599 Speaker 4: And so again I think that the specific practice would. 104 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 3: Be are you the only person in the world who's 105 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 3: made that mistake or had that regret? And the answer 106 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 3: in ninety nine times out of one hundred is no 107 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 3: freaking way. 108 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: I love that, And. 109 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 2: I do remember when you actually wrote about that in 110 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 2: the book around Regrets, around Kindness, and you write, I 111 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 2: believe that you now go about making kindness a higher priority, 112 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 2: And I was curious as to how you're doing that. 113 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 3: One of the things that the way this has been 114 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 3: useful to me is that if something is bugging you 115 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 3: for ten years or twenty years, that's a message that's 116 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 3: telling you something you know, and so what it's telling 117 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 3: me because I'm sure there are many mistakes that I've made, 118 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 3: many screw ups I've had that I don't even remember anymore. 119 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 3: Not only do they not bother me, but I barely 120 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 3: have any recollection of them. So the ones that we 121 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 3: recollect and that stick with us are very strong signals, 122 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 3: and there's strong signals about what we value. And the 123 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 3: fact that this was such a strong signal finally alerted me, 124 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 3: convinced me that kindness was something that I value, and 125 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 3: I started. 126 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 4: Thinking about that. 127 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,280 Speaker 3: I said, yeah, actually, the people I admire are often 128 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 3: very kind. I admire that virtue in people, and so regret, 129 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 3: in my case clarified what I valued. But it also 130 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 3: instructed me about how to do things better. And I'll 131 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 3: tell you what. Let me give you a specific example 132 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 3: of this. And if my wife were here, she could 133 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 3: she could testify to the truth of this. So again, 134 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 3: my regrets about kindness were regrets about inaction, and they 135 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 3: regrets largely about exclusion. And people being left out. That 136 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 3: was going on in front of my eyes, and I 137 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 3: didn't do anything about. So if you were to see 138 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 3: me a man at a social gathering and many social 139 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 3: gatherings back in the days when we had social gatherings, 140 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 3: they are reappearing here in the United States of America. 141 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,679 Speaker 3: And what you often see at social gatherings, they're sometimes 142 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 3: hard for people to navigate. And what you also see 143 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 3: are you often sometimes see are like clumps of people 144 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 3: talking and then maybe one or two or three or 145 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 3: four or five individuals who are kind of marooned at 146 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 3: a loss right, And my wife will testify to this. 147 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 3: I now always like go over to that person and 148 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 3: bring them into the scrum that I'm in. I always 149 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 3: will widen the circle to invite other people in. And 150 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 3: I really think, now, now again, is that going to 151 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 3: qualify me for sainhood? 152 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 4: No? All right? Do I have a lot more work 153 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 4: to do. 154 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 3: On kindness, Yes, But I would not be doing that 155 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:33,559 Speaker 3: had I not really faced up to my regrets about kindness, 156 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 3: thought about them, you know, treated myself with some compassion, 157 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 3: tried to make sense of those regrets and try to 158 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 3: instruct myself about what to do next. 159 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 4: Time. 160 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:46,679 Speaker 1: That sounds that sounds very beautiful. 161 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 2: I want to be at your events, Dan, because I 162 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 2: feel like I'm off in that person standing on the ass. 163 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: What what have you done on a more macro scale 164 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: with your life? 165 00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 2: Like we've sort of talked about some of those, you know, 166 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 2: concrete day to day things, and you know, I guess 167 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,559 Speaker 2: that is a macro thing, identifying the value of kindness 168 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 2: being important. 169 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:08,199 Speaker 1: But are there you know, perhaps like. 170 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 2: Annual rhythms or rituals that you've got into, you know, 171 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 2: now understanding the power of. 172 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 4: Regret, Well, there are a few things. 173 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 3: There are a lot of So one thing that I 174 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 3: that I did this past December at the end of 175 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 3: the year, is that I listed my top three regrets 176 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 3: from the year, so as kind of like a preemptive 177 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 3: New Year's resolution, that is, instead of starting with my 178 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 3: New Year's resolutions, I said, what are my old year's regrets? 179 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 3: And so took a small but I limited to three. 180 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 3: I'm a big believer in the power of three. If 181 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 3: I said list ten regrets, maybe you know, I don't 182 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 3: want to. I don't want to try to manufacture these regrets. 183 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 3: So I said, what are the three? What are the 184 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:54,319 Speaker 3: three regrets that I that I have for this year 185 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 3: from this previous year and what and I and I 186 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 3: just thought those through and I to them. I'm a 187 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 3: big believer in getting stuff out of your head into 188 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:05,839 Speaker 3: a system, whether it's just simply writing it down or 189 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:11,319 Speaker 3: typing into a document or memorializing it somewhere. And so 190 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 3: I think that practice at the end of the year 191 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 3: of saying what are the three big regrets of the year, 192 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,959 Speaker 3: can be a catalyst for what to do about them. 193 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,439 Speaker 3: And if you go through this process that I'm suggesting 194 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 3: you list a regret, you treat yourself with kindness rather 195 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 3: than contempt. By disclosing it, you're beginning to make sense 196 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 3: of it, and then you try to extract a lesson 197 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 3: from it. Then I think that's super helpful. 198 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 2: I love the idea in your book about starting a 199 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 2: regret circle. Can you talk about that and is that 200 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:40,479 Speaker 2: something you've thought about doing yourself? 201 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 4: I definitely have. 202 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 3: I haven't done that one yet, but it is a 203 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 3: very simple exercise where you get maybe four or five 204 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:54,079 Speaker 3: people and each of everybody shares you. So you start out, 205 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 3: one person shares a regret, that person talks about what 206 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 3: lesson he or she has learned from from it, and 207 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 3: then you go around and the other people try to 208 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 3: give them advice and guidance on what to do next. 209 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 3: Because again, one of the other things that we see 210 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 3: from that regret teaches us is that there are other 211 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 3: ways to convey this. Other sources for this as well, 212 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 3: is that we tend to be much better at solving 213 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 3: other people's problems than our own. So it's another way 214 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 3: to enlist the crowd to help resolve some of your 215 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:30,079 Speaker 3: own problems, which. 216 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 2: I guess in a way taps into the idea you 217 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 2: write about using self distancing strategies like exactly, yeah, like 218 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,439 Speaker 2: asking yourself, what would your best friend do in this situation? 219 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: A self distancing strategy is something that you use. 220 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 2: Are there examples where you've used those in your own life? 221 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: Oh? 222 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 4: My god, yes, on so many different occasions. 223 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 3: So you mentioned the decision making tool of what would 224 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 3: you tell your best friend to do? 225 00:11:57,559 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 4: I use that all the time. I use that all 226 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:00,559 Speaker 4: all the time. 227 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,199 Speaker 3: And you know, because so I'll give you I'll give 228 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 3: you a very specific for instance, So I have been 229 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:15,239 Speaker 3: contemplating taking a sabbatical because I am slightly burnt out 230 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 3: and you know, sort of contemplating, you know, the next 231 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,839 Speaker 3: couple decades in my life. But I'm a little bit 232 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 3: skittish about taking a sabbatical because I feel like it 233 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 3: might I might not accomplish anything. I might be spinning 234 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 3: my wheels. It might be indulgent, it might not be productive. 235 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 3: And as I contemplated it, I asked that very question. 236 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 3: I say, what would you tell your best friend to do? 237 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 3: And and if I would say, take the sabbatical, like, 238 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 3: I don't even have to think about it when I 239 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 3: do that kind of when I do that kind of 240 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 3: self distancing. 241 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 4: So I use that a lot. 242 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 3: Another self distancing technique is is talking to yourself in 243 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:57,319 Speaker 3: the third person. I use that a lot for exercise 244 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 3: and sports. So when I'm running long distances, I will 245 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 3: it's embarrassing, but I will like yell at my not 246 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 3: yell at myself, but sort of exhort myself using my 247 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:10,719 Speaker 3: first name. So yeah, I use that all the I 248 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 3: use that all the time. I'm telling you the thing, 249 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 3: what would I tell my best. 250 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:15,680 Speaker 4: Friend to do? Is the best decision making tool there is. 251 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've absolutely used that one before and it is 252 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,560 Speaker 2: so helpful. I want to talk about writing one of 253 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 2: the things that you do so well is you tell stories, 254 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,719 Speaker 2: and you're so great at making science and data not 255 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 2: just understandable but memorable. And I would love to know 256 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 2: what's your process for finding those stories. And really, in 257 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 2: the Power of Regret, they're all real life stories that 258 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:43,079 Speaker 2: ill at the points. 259 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 4: Well on this one. 260 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 3: I mean, for this book, I had, you know, a 261 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 3: pretty distinct approach in that one of the things that 262 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 3: to write that give me let me, let me take 263 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,040 Speaker 3: two steps back for listeners who won't know this. So 264 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 3: for this book The Power of Regret, I relied on 265 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 3: three legs of a research stool. The first leg was 266 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 3: looking at some existing science on this emotion of regret, 267 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 3: in particularly social psychology, developmental psychology, cognitive science, neuroscience, to 268 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 3: try to say what is science, existing science tell us 269 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 3: about this emotion. The second leg was something that I 270 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 3: called the American Regret Project, which was a piece of 271 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 3: quantitative research, numbers based research, where I did a very 272 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 3: large public opinion survey of the US population, the largest 273 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 3: survey of US attitudes about regret ever conducted, and tried 274 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 3: to find some insights there. And then the third and 275 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 3: this is going to get to your question, is I 276 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 3: also set up something called the World Regret Survey, which 277 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 3: was a giant collection tool where I invited people from 278 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 3: around the world to submit a regret and to my astonishment, 279 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 3: fifteen thousand, you know, very very quickly, and we're now 280 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 3: over nineteen thousand regrets from people in one hundred and 281 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 3: five one hundred and nine countries right now. 282 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 4: And on that what I did. 283 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 3: So first of all, on that one, I read through 284 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 3: at least the first fifteen thousand regrets and started separating 285 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 3: out the ones that I found super compelling. What's more 286 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 3: is that I gave people who filled out the survey 287 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 3: the option of. 288 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 4: Including their email. 289 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 3: It was anonymous, but they could include their email address 290 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 3: if they wanted to have a follow up interview. And 291 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 3: so and so I read through the regrets, I found 292 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 3: certain ones that were compelling. If there were ones that 293 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 3: were compelling and the person was willing to talk to me, 294 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 3: I would reach out to them by email and do interviews. 295 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 3: So I did hundreds of interviews to try to find 296 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 3: the very best, most compelling stories. 297 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 2: And how do you know when a story is going 298 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 2: to be effective enough to get your point across. 299 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 4: It's a good question. I don't know. If you know, 300 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 4: and I don't have a way to do that. 301 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 3: I mean, some of it is a some of it 302 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 3: is a gut some of it is a gut instinct. 303 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 3: What I tend to do is I tend to tell 304 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 3: the story to somebody else and see whether they lean 305 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 3: in or their eyes glaze over. That's, to me sometimes 306 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 3: a good test. And also the other thing about it 307 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 3: is that the. 308 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 4: Stories you use are not equally weighted. 309 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 3: That is, sometimes a story can be brilliant for three sentences, 310 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 3: you know what I mean, and it doesn't deserve much 311 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 3: more of that. Sometimes the story needs three pages. And 312 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 3: so I think that knowing how much weight the story 313 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 3: deserves is really important as well. And one of the 314 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 3: things that I think that less experienced writers do is 315 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 3: that they don't wait the stories properly. That is, they think, well, 316 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 3: I found out all this information about this person, therefore 317 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 3: I need to it. And that's often that's often a mistake, 318 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 3: and knowing like, oh my gosh, I've done three interviews 319 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 3: with this person and it's taken me three and a 320 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 3: half hours of my life. But you know what, I 321 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 3: just need a sentence. You got to be good with that, 322 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 3: And that's really important. The same thing is true with research. 323 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:24,440 Speaker 3: You have to be able to explain the research thoroughly enough, 324 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,959 Speaker 3: but in a way that serves the readers rather than 325 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 3: validates your decisions to do the research. So let may 326 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:33,679 Speaker 3: be specific there. So there's in the book I wrote about. 327 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:37,360 Speaker 3: I looked at some of the research on when children 328 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 3: developed the capacity for regret, So a lot of developmental psychology, 329 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 3: lots and lots of experiments of giving say, five year 330 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 3: old scenarios and then seven year old scenarios and then 331 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:50,919 Speaker 3: nine year old scenarios and seeing whether they comprehend the 332 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:51,920 Speaker 3: idea of regret. 333 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 4: There I probably read. 334 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 3: I probably spent a month reading these papers and looking 335 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 3: at some textbooks and and things. 336 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 4: Probably ended up reading. 337 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 3: I don't know, fifty to fifty five studies on this question. 338 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 3: And when I got to writing it, I realized I 339 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 3: could explain it all in like a paragraph. 340 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:14,679 Speaker 1: Wow, that must take a lot of restraint. 341 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,640 Speaker 3: It does, believe me, it does. But here's the thing. 342 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 3: Here's the way I look at it. It's like the 343 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:24,360 Speaker 3: only thing worse than saying, oh crap, I just took 344 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 3: a month of work and only got a paragraph out 345 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 3: of it. 346 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 4: I don't like that. 347 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 3: Believe me, that's not a happy day in the Pink 348 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:33,439 Speaker 3: householder in Pinking World headquarters here, that is not a 349 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:38,439 Speaker 3: happy day. However, what is an even worse day is 350 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:43,120 Speaker 3: torturing readers. Is giving readers something that they don't need 351 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 3: that really bugs That bugs me even more so. It's 352 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 3: a question of, as is often the case in life 353 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 3: in general, in my life in particular, which variety and 354 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 3: intensity of discontent do you prefer? 355 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: And how do you know that you are going to 356 00:18:57,720 --> 00:18:58,880 Speaker 1: be torturing readers? 357 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 2: I guess that's the case question, like how do you 358 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 2: know that they don't want to hold chapter around kids 359 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:04,479 Speaker 2: and regrets? 360 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,920 Speaker 3: I have a I that I think is easier because 361 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,920 Speaker 3: if it bores me, you know, it's like, Okay, I 362 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 3: don't want to read this. I think I think that's 363 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 3: I mean, that's I think that's a lot. I think 364 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 3: that's a lot easier. And again, you know, what you 365 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 3: want to do is you want to my I mean, 366 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 3: this is my own bias, but I think I've always 367 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 3: I think that most nonfiction books, and I've gotten in 368 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:32,160 Speaker 3: trouble for saying this, but I think that most nonfiction 369 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 3: books are too long. I think that most books would 370 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:37,239 Speaker 3: be many of many books would be twice as good 371 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 3: if they were half as long, because I think that 372 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 3: that they the authors aren't concise enough, there's too much 373 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 3: fluff in them, and that many of these books probably 374 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 3: don't deserve to be full fledged books. And so I 375 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 3: try to be pretty relentless about what I what I 376 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 3: put in there, and what and more important, what I 377 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 3: leave out the high I mean, my favorite compliment in 378 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,640 Speaker 3: this book was I was in the UK two weeks 379 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 3: ago and I did an interview, a radio interview, and 380 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,400 Speaker 3: the producer said, you know, this book is this book 381 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 3: is really good, like there's no fluff, and I'm like, yeah, exactly, 382 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 3: there's no fluff. 383 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 2: I would wholeheartedly agree with that, and just pacing it 384 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 2: moves quickly. I completely agree with what you're saying with 385 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 2: nonfiction books. I loved the story of Cheryl and her 386 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 2: friendship with Jen, or rather her lost friendship with Jen. 387 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 2: How did you decide that that was going to be 388 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 2: one of the key stories in the book that you 389 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 2: took throughout it? 390 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 3: Partly because I found it a very relatable story for myself, 391 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 3: because I could see myself in the story. So as 392 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 3: narcissistic as that might sound. That was part of it, 393 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,200 Speaker 3: and the other part of it was is that the 394 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 3: it was basically the color and emotion with which Cheryl 395 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,919 Speaker 3: described things and the fact that she was so racked 396 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:01,360 Speaker 3: by this. 397 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 4: I found that I found that pretty compelling. 398 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 3: What's more is that this was quite representative of a 399 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 3: lot of regrets. 400 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 4: So when when when you know there. 401 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 3: Were there are plenty of regrets, very very much like Cheryl's. 402 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,199 Speaker 3: So I felt like this was I could see myself 403 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,360 Speaker 3: in it, and I knew that it was representing other 404 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:23,160 Speaker 3: people as well. 405 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 2: I could definitely relate to that very relatable story. We 406 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:35,439 Speaker 2: will be back with Dan soon hearing about the online 407 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,360 Speaker 2: research tools that he swears by. If you're looking for 408 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 2: more tips to improve the way you work and live, 409 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,439 Speaker 2: I write a weekly newsletter where I share practical and 410 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 2: simple to apply tips to improve your life. You can 411 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 2: sign up for that at Amantha dot substack dot com. 412 00:21:53,359 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 2: That's Amantha dot substack dot com. Now, research is a 413 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 2: huge part of your process, and as you mentioned, the 414 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,880 Speaker 2: research process for the Power of Regret was a bit 415 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 2: different because you conducted your own very large scale research. 416 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,679 Speaker 2: But still there's a whole lot of academic research backing 417 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 2: up the points that you're making. And i'd love to know, 418 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 2: once you've decided on the topic that your next book 419 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 2: is going to be. 420 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: About, what does that research process look like. 421 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's semi systematic in that. 422 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 3: So before I write a book, I will write a 423 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 3: book proposal, And in writing a book proposal, I will 424 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,439 Speaker 3: look in in a cursory way at the key pieces 425 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 3: of academic research, or at least for this one, the 426 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 3: key pieces of academic research, just to get sort of 427 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 3: the skeleton, just to get the broad ideas, and so 428 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 3: I have a sense of what the broad contours are, 429 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 3: but at a very broad level of what the research says. 430 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 3: So then when I start the real research, I'll go 431 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,959 Speaker 3: back and I'll read those papers again more important as 432 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,640 Speaker 3: I will go to the footnotes to see what's being 433 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:07,679 Speaker 3: cited a lot pull those papers, read those, go to 434 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:12,439 Speaker 3: their footnotes, read those, and eventually I'll it'll start to 435 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 3: get a little recursive that I'll start kind of chasing 436 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,439 Speaker 3: my tail and I say, okay, I feel like in 437 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,400 Speaker 3: this one area I've sort of sort of figured out 438 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:22,239 Speaker 3: the main things to read in what they in, what 439 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:26,120 Speaker 3: they say, and then then I'll do that for other 440 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,880 Speaker 3: kinds of topics and subtopics. And then at a certain point, 441 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 3: I will start trying to see the structure of the book, 442 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 3: and you know, I'll come into it with a vague 443 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,399 Speaker 3: sense of what the structure is. It's usually wrong, that's okay. 444 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 3: I'll come in and then then I often will start 445 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 3: writing a piece of it. And for me, when I 446 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 3: start writing it, I realize I understand the structure better. 447 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 3: I realized what's working with the structure and what's not 448 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,719 Speaker 3: working with the structure. I also realize what more research 449 00:23:57,760 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 3: I need to do, and so I'll sort of begin 450 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 3: the process us again, except that there'll be less research 451 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 3: to do and I'll go back to writing. And so 452 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,640 Speaker 3: that's it's sort of like these recursive these recursive loops 453 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,880 Speaker 3: between clinging into the research, doing some writing, and figuring 454 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 3: it out, using that to do a little more research, 455 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 3: doing that, then coming back, and so the balance between 456 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 3: research and writing starts to shift from mostly research and 457 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 3: little writing to a balance to at a certain point 458 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:29,199 Speaker 3: mostly writing and very little more research. 459 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 2: Are their key tools like online tools, for example, that 460 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,120 Speaker 2: you use to do your research. 461 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 4: I'm a big fan, believe it or not, of Google. 462 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 3: Scholar which is a database that Google has that is 463 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 3: that is very good at finding all kinds of all 464 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 3: kinds of academic papers. It is a very it's it's 465 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 3: a free tool. It's a simple tool, and it works extraordinarily. 466 00:24:58,040 --> 00:24:59,400 Speaker 3: It works extraordinarily. 467 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 4: Well, are there any. 468 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 2: Other pieces of software that you find quite useful for 469 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 2: your work and organizing your thinking or productivity in general? 470 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 4: Sure? I use So there are a bunch of different things. 471 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 3: So I well, when you say software, I mean I 472 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 3: actually still rely more on paper than a lot of people. 473 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,959 Speaker 3: I for for the research that I care about, I 474 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 3: print out every paper that I want to read. I 475 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 3: read every everything on paper, all the all the things 476 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 3: on paper, and then I actually put them in paper 477 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 3: files as well. So it's bad environmentally, it's good cognitively 478 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 3: at least for me. 479 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:37,360 Speaker 4: And I put. 480 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 3: All of and so I have these massive, uh kind 481 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 3: of according files organized by either chapter or parts of 482 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 3: chapter and so forth, that are stuffed with paper. 483 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,199 Speaker 4: So I do it. So so I use again, I 484 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 4: use a lot of paper. 485 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:58,199 Speaker 3: In organizing the regrets from this these thousands of regrets 486 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 3: from the World Regrets Server, I printed out an enormous 487 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,200 Speaker 3: number of them. And when I was thinking about categorizing them. 488 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,640 Speaker 3: My first move and categorizing them was laying them out 489 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 3: on a table in my office and just stacking them 490 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 3: up and restacking them and seeing what categories made sense 491 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 3: to me. So a lot of it is very for me, 492 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,639 Speaker 3: is very physical and analog. Now that set, there are 493 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,880 Speaker 3: few tools that I that I really like. I am 494 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 3: a maybe it's a very simple tool, but you know Dropbox. 495 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 3: If if terrorists hit the drop Box servers, I would 496 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 3: be out of work for. 497 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 4: The rest of my life. 498 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 3: I organize a lot on Dropbox, and so that's really 499 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 3: important to me. 500 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 4: And then another one that's less well. 501 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 3: Known that I use for trying to organize ideas is 502 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 3: a piece of software called It's very inexpensive. I think 503 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 3: it's like twenty bucks US. It's called it's called Scalpel 504 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,080 Speaker 3: s C A P p l E. It is a 505 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 3: it's kind of a mind mapping software. But it's the 506 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 3: best mind mapping software that I have. It's it's by 507 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 3: an independent developer, it's not by one of the big 508 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 3: tech companies. And so I use scapeal on every chapter 509 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 3: in this latest book. 510 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: Wow, I've never heard of that software. I'm gonna go 511 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: look that up. 512 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's it's very good. 513 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 3: It's it's a it's a it's a it's a traditional 514 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,399 Speaker 3: it's it's mind mapping software, which there are plenty of, 515 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 3: plenty of types of mind mapping software. In my view, 516 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 3: this one seems the most intuitive, the most user friendly, 517 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 3: and actually has the fewest bells and whistles on it. 518 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 3: A lot of the mind mapping software has so many 519 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,639 Speaker 3: extra features that you don't need that ends up being confusing. 520 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 3: This is very very simple, very elegant, uh, very elegant program. 521 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 2: Now, a lot of the power of regret is about 522 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,959 Speaker 2: how we can use past mistakes to reorient actions or 523 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 2: even our goals in the present. And you're, like, you're 524 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,879 Speaker 2: obviously very well known for writing about motive and goals 525 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 2: when you wrote Drive, And I was wondering for you, like, 526 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 2: as the way that you set goals or think about 527 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 2: motivation in your own life changed much since you wrote Drive. 528 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think a little bit. 529 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 3: I mean what I mean, maybe maybe even maybe even 530 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 3: quite a bit. I mean it helped me understand, I think, 531 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 3: why I became self employed twenty plus years ago. You know, 532 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 3: I hadn't written about you know, I didn't know the 533 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 3: research on autonomy then, but once I understood it as like, oh, 534 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:34,400 Speaker 3: that makes sense about why I did what I did. 535 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 3: So it helped inform my understanding of myself, which is 536 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 3: often somewhat useful. One thing that it did is on 537 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 3: the on the principle of mastery. It it helped me 538 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 3: understand the importance of daily progress. So I'm pretty obsessive about, 539 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 3: you know, recording and charting my daily progress. 540 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 4: So so you know, at the. 541 00:28:58,080 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 3: End of every day, I list what I got done 542 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 3: that day, or at least three three big things I 543 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 3: got done that day. 544 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 4: I for my. 545 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 3: For even for exercise and running, I always log the 546 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 3: the miles that I run. I don't do it in 547 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 3: kilometers I should, but I do it in miles. Log 548 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 3: the miles that I run. And so that's that's changed. 549 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 3: How how I do a lot of stuff day to 550 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 3: day and on purpose, I do ask myself a lot, 551 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 3: try to ask myself as many times as possible, like 552 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 3: why I'm doing something, even if I'm in the weeds 553 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 3: of writing a book, even the weeds of writing a chapter. 554 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 3: You know, instead of saying to myself, Okay, how do 555 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 3: I finish this chapter? You know, how how do I 556 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 3: get this to work? I think I take a step 557 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 3: back and say, Okay, why am I writing this chapter? 558 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 3: Why is this advanced the story? Why is this good 559 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 3: for readers? 560 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 4: So I do? 561 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 3: I guess I do now. I think about employee a 562 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 3: lot of that stuff day to day on my own. 563 00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 2: What was your answer to that question when you were 564 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 2: writing The Power of Regret? Was there a macro reason 565 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 2: or motivating factor? 566 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 4: Oh? Yeah, yeah, No on that there was definitely a 567 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 4: macro reason there. 568 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 3: And actually figuring out that macro reason was really important 569 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 3: to me because I was kind of spinning my wheels 570 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 3: for a while until I figured that out. And for me, 571 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 3: what I wanted to do was the macro reason was 572 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 3: to try to reclaim this emotion because I just think 573 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 3: we've so fundamentally misunderstood the emotion of regret. We think 574 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 3: that it is dangerous, when in fact it is actually useful. 575 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 3: We think that it makes us weak, when in fact 576 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 3: it can make us strong. And so I wanted to 577 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 3: reclaim this emotion because I'm convinced it's our most transformative 578 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,719 Speaker 3: emotion and that if people know how to deal with it, 579 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 3: they're going to lead better lives. So on this one 580 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,720 Speaker 3: there was there was a little bit more perhaps then 581 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 3: maybe than some of the other ones, that a little 582 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 3: bit more of a missionary zeal in this one than 583 00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 3: on the others. 584 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: What gave you the idea to write about regret? 585 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 2: Because, as I said, it doesn't seem like an obvious 586 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 2: thing to do. 587 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 3: Because I was, you know, because I was, I was 588 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 3: dealing with the regrets of my own and I was 589 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 3: also at a stage in my life where I was 590 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 3: pondering these things. So you know, I don't know if 591 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 3: I would have I mean, I've been writing books for 592 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 3: twenty years, to my amazement, and I don't think I 593 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 3: would have written this book in my thirties. I don't 594 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 3: think I had I don't think I had enough mileage 595 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 3: on me. But in my fifties it felt kind of 596 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 3: inevitable because I was looking backward at decisions I'd made 597 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 3: or hadn't made, and some of them bothered me, and 598 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 3: I said, Okay, how can I use this to live 599 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 3: the rest of my life? And you know, one of 600 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 3: the things that I've discovered going back to self compassion, 601 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 3: is that you know, well, all of us are kind 602 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 3: of special in our own way. I don't want to 603 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 3: hurt anybody's feelings. We're actually not that special. So if 604 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 3: I'm reckoning with regrets, if I'm wrestling with regrets, then 605 00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 3: chances are other people are too. And that's that there's 606 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 3: a wider appeal for this topic than might meet the eye. 607 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 2: And like, how do you decide that this is like 608 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 2: this warrants you know, spending the next three or so 609 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 2: years of your life on Like how did you know 610 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 2: it was that important? Because that's essentially what we're talking about, 611 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 2: if not longer when it comes to writing a book. 612 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 4: Oh it's even longer. 613 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 3: I mean I got a call from a newspaper reporter 614 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 3: last week about a book I wrote twenty years ago. 615 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 4: You know. So this is one reason why. 616 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 3: I write book proposals before agreeing to write a book. 617 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 3: And for me, a book proposal is usually twenty five 618 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 3: or thirty pages long, and it lays out what the 619 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 3: book is, who I think is going to buy it, 620 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:48,720 Speaker 3: why it's different from anything else. 621 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 4: And that action does two things. 622 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 3: First, it it forces me to say, Okay, do I 623 00:32:58,080 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 3: actually want to spend time with this idea? 624 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 4: And there are a lot of ideas. 625 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 3: That you don't want to spend that much time with 626 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 3: and so, and then also it allows you to see 627 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 3: whether there's a there there. And because if you can't 628 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 3: sustain it very easily in thirty five pages, you're not 629 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 3: going to be able to sustain it very easily in 630 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 3: two hundred and seventy five pages. And so it's so 631 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,480 Speaker 3: to me that book proposal is a really great test. 632 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 4: And I have had situations where. 633 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 3: I I once years ago, was between books, figuring out 634 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 3: what to do next, and I my wife and I 635 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 3: had we had little kids at the time, and I said, okay, guys, 636 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 3: I got to like write a proposal for a new book. 637 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 3: I'm not getting any traction on this thing. And I 638 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 3: sent them away to my in law's house and I said, okay, 639 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 3: give me, guys, give me two weeks, and I can 640 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 3: you know that way I can just I got to 641 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 3: get this thing done and I don't want to torture you, 642 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,040 Speaker 3: and you guys can have fun without me. And so 643 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 3: I buggled down, and I think after like eight or 644 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 3: nine days, I called my wife and I said, I 645 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 3: got some good news and some bad news. The good 646 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 3: news is that you can come home now. The bad 647 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,719 Speaker 3: news is because in writing this proposal, I realized this 648 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 3: is not a book. This does not hold together as 649 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,359 Speaker 3: a book. And believe me a man, I'd much rather 650 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,879 Speaker 3: find it out then than after I'd contracted to write 651 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,799 Speaker 3: a book and how to disappoint my editors and deal 652 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 3: with that stuff. 653 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:28,760 Speaker 1: Yes, definitely. 654 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:30,799 Speaker 2: And I remember when when I last had you on 655 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,680 Speaker 2: how I work, we did go into quite a bit 656 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 2: of depth around writing a book proposal. So for anyone 657 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 2: that is listening and it's like, what is the book proposal? 658 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 2: I will link to that past interview in the show notes. 659 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 2: Now I remember, like, right at the end of the book, 660 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 2: you also write about another regret that you have, and 661 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 2: you say that you regret not forging enough close connections 662 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 2: with friends and mentors and colleagues, and now you try 663 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,839 Speaker 2: hard to reach out. I was wondering, what does that 664 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,359 Speaker 2: look like, What practically do you find yourself doing now 665 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:07,720 Speaker 2: to act on that regret. 666 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,360 Speaker 3: Well, one thing is that if I find myself at 667 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 3: a juncture saying oh I'm thinking about person A, should 668 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 3: I reach out? 669 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:19,799 Speaker 4: Being at that juncture answers the question for me. 670 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 3: So I've done a much better job about sending someone 671 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:26,959 Speaker 3: a text message saying, hey, do you have fifteen minutes 672 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:27,840 Speaker 3: to talk this weekend. 673 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 4: Nothing wrong, no agenda. 674 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 3: I just want to see how you're doing, like I 675 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:33,839 Speaker 3: would never do that before, and now I do that. 676 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 4: What else do you do on the reaching out? I'm 677 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 4: trying on this one is. 678 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 3: That I'm I'm a little bit more likely to initiate 679 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 3: a social gathering than I have been in the past. 680 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 3: Usually I never initiated any social gatherings and actually often 681 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:59,239 Speaker 3: try to avoid them. And so so I'm getting a 682 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:01,279 Speaker 3: little bit better trying to initiate those. 683 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:06,960 Speaker 2: Now, Dan, four people that want to consume more of 684 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 2: your work and certainly the power of regret. 685 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 1: What's the best way for people to do that? 686 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 3: I just go to my website, which is Dan Pink, 687 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 3: da n p I n K dot com, Dan pink 688 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:17,400 Speaker 3: dot com. 689 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 2: Amazing, Dan, thank you for writing yet another just amazing 690 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 2: book that has certainly changed my life. 691 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:28,880 Speaker 4: So thank you. Thanks for doing what you do. 692 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me back on the podcast. Maybe I'll 693 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 3: write another one so I can come back again in. 694 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:33,080 Speaker 4: A few years. 695 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, please do don't take that sabbatical. No do It 696 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:37,920 Speaker 1: sounds like that's quickly for to do. 697 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:38,760 Speaker 4: Well. 698 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. 699 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:39,960 Speaker 3: Dan. 700 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 2: There were so many things that I took out of 701 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,279 Speaker 2: this chat with Dan and also his new book, The 702 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 2: Power of Regrets, which I loved. I really was into 703 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 2: the idea about Dan's and your reflection. 704 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,799 Speaker 1: On his top three regrets from the past year to 705 00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:58,960 Speaker 1: inform the year ahead. 706 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 2: It's definitely of the many things that I plan to 707 00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 2: try implementing in my year ahead. 708 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 4: Now, if you're. 709 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,680 Speaker 2: Loving How I Work, maybe you might want to recommend 710 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 2: it to other people that you think would also benefit 711 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:15,479 Speaker 2: You can simply hit the share icon wherever you're listening 712 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,319 Speaker 2: to this podcast from and share it with someone else 713 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,400 Speaker 2: that you think would like it. Thank you for sharing 714 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 2: part of your day with me by listening to How 715 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 2: I Work. 716 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 1: If you're keen for. 717 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,040 Speaker 2: More tips on how to work better, connect with me 718 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:32,160 Speaker 2: via LinkedIn or Instagram. I'm very easy to find. Just 719 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 2: search for Amantha Imba. How I Work was recorded on 720 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,840 Speaker 2: the traditional land of the Warrenery people, part of the 721 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,440 Speaker 2: cool And Nation. I am so grateful for being able 722 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 2: to work and live on this beautiful land, and I 723 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 2: want to pay my respects to Elder's past, present and emerging. 724 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 2: How I Work is produced by Inventium with production support 725 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:56,360 Speaker 2: from Dead Set Studios. 726 00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 1: The producer for this episode 727 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,879 Speaker 2: Was Liam Riordan, and thank you to min Nimba who 728 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,359 Speaker 2: did the audio mix and makes everything sound better than 729 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:04,719 Speaker 2: it would have otherwise.