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Speaker 1: Hello, this is the Happy Families Podcast. Minimum age legislation

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Speaker 1: is creeping up. It's only a couple of months away now.

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Speaker 1: December tenth is when the Federal Government's Social Media minimum

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Speaker 1: age legislation kicks off. In a lot of ways, this

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Speaker 1: is first of its kind across the globe and there

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Speaker 1: are a lot of people who are watching with interest.

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Speaker 1: Today on the Happy Families Podcast, we unpack what it means,

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Speaker 1: what people misunderstand, and a whole lot more about how

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Speaker 1: this thing is actually going to work. The clock's ticking

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Speaker 1: and we're going to tell you all about it right

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Speaker 1: after this. Stay with us. Hello, Welcome to the Happy

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Speaker 1: Families Podcast. It's real parenting solutions every single day on

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Speaker 1: Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. We love that you choose

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Speaker 1: to listen to us. Hopefully you've had a great school holidays.

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Speaker 1: A couple of states still going through their holidays, but

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Speaker 1: here in Queensland where we live, it's back to school

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Speaker 1: and we're kicking off the term with a conversation that

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Speaker 1: is on a lot of people's minds. The Social Media

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Speaker 1: Minimum Age Legislation. Term four is the last term of

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Speaker 1: school where kids under sixteen get access to social media.

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Speaker 1: It's all about to change.

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Speaker 2: Tilly died at just fifteen today. Her mom took her

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Speaker 2: story from regional New South Wales to the world, speaking

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Speaker 2: at the United Nations. Exhausted and broken, she just couldn't

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Speaker 2: fight anymore, and social media played a direct role in

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Speaker 2: her death.

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Speaker 3: Well, I've got a whole heap of questions for you today, Okay,

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Speaker 3: I'd really love to unpack this because I think that

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Speaker 3: there's plenty of parents who either don't understand the policy

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Speaker 3: and what's going to change for them and their children,

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Speaker 3: or kind of misunderstand what the purpose of it is.

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Speaker 3: So my first question for you is what does this

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Speaker 3: policy actually do.

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Speaker 1: So the policy is designed literally to limit access to

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Speaker 1: social media platforms to children under the age of sixteen.

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Speaker 1: That's it in a nutshell. It's pretty widely misunderstood. It's

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Speaker 1: been very much mischaracterized around the world. But if I

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Speaker 1: was to read this directly from the E Safety Commissioner's

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Speaker 1: FAQ about it, it says this age restricted platforms won't

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Speaker 1: be allowed to let under sixteens create or keep an account,

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Speaker 1: and that's because being logged into an account increases the

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Speaker 1: likelihood that they're going to be exposed to pressures and

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Speaker 1: risks that can be hard to deal with. These come

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Speaker 1: from social media platform design features that encourage them to

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Speaker 1: spend more time on screens while also serving up content

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Speaker 1: that can harm their health and well being. Under sixteens

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Speaker 1: and this is critical will still be able to see

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Speaker 1: publicly available social media content that doesn't require being logged

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Speaker 1: into an account to view. Okay, So that's what it does.

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Speaker 1: It keeps kids from having an account, It keeps kids

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Speaker 1: from getting access to anything that's locked down behind an account.

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Speaker 1: But if there is content on social media platforms that

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Speaker 1: is available for public viewing, children and teachers and whoever

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Speaker 1: else will be able to access that content and it

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Speaker 1: will be able to be viewed.

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Speaker 3: So you're suggesting that you don't need to have a

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Speaker 3: profile to be able to access publicly available content.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, even now as an adult. So I believe

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Speaker 1: that you don't have a TikTok account, right, yep, But

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Speaker 1: you can still jump online and look for short videos

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Speaker 1: and TikTok content will come up in your online search.

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Speaker 1: You don't have to have an account to be able

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Speaker 1: to see the content. So the social media minimum age

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Speaker 1: legislation once more does not stop kids from viewing content

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Speaker 1: on social media. They can see publicly available social media

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Speaker 1: content so long as it doesn't require being logged into

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Speaker 1: an account. If people have privacy settings on, you have

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Speaker 1: to have an account to be able to get in

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Speaker 1: there and be friends with them whatever. But they will

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Speaker 1: not be able to keep an account, create an account,

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Speaker 1: and therefore have the algorithm doing what algorithms do, which

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Speaker 1: serves up increasingly half for material and provides ongoingly compelling

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Speaker 1: content to keep them there longer.

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Speaker 3: So it seems like a really lofty goal on the

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Speaker 3: government's part to I guess rain in some control over

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Speaker 3: what has been just openly available to these kids.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean social media has been the wild wildwist

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Speaker 1: it still is.

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Speaker 3: How are they going to monitor it? Like, how do

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Speaker 3: they know that this child is sixteen or We've seen

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Speaker 3: so many times that kids are pretty clever and they

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Speaker 3: know how to get their way around all these different

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Speaker 3: controls and platforms, So how do they monitor it?

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Speaker 1: So I'm going to be talking with Julie Inman Grant,

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Speaker 1: the e Safety Commissioner, in a couple of weeks and

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Speaker 1: ask a little bit more about this. The details on

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Speaker 1: this are a little bit skinny, but basically, again from

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Speaker 1: the FAQ on the E Safety Commission's website, there is

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Speaker 1: a range of technologies available to check age at the

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Speaker 1: point of account sign up and later on as well.

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Speaker 1: It's going to be up to each platform to decide

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Speaker 1: which method they choose to use, and E Safety is

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Speaker 1: going to publish regulatory guidance to help platforms to decide

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Speaker 1: which methods are going to be most effective and comply

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Speaker 1: with the Online Safety Act. The guidelines as well are

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Speaker 1: going to draw on the Australian Government's Age Assurance Technology

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Speaker 1: trial as well as a whole lot of stakeholder consultations,

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Speaker 1: and essentially, no Australian is going to be forced to

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Speaker 1: use government ID to prove their age online. The age

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Speaker 1: restricted social media platforms have to offer reasonable alternatives to users,

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Speaker 1: but basically this is going to be on the platforms

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Speaker 1: to make sure that all users are over the age

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Speaker 1: of sixteen.

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Speaker 3: So I find this part curious then, because we've done

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Speaker 3: so many podcasts we've actually acknowledged that these platforms do

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Speaker 3: not have our children's best interests at heart, correct, and

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Speaker 3: yet all of a sudden we're actually putting the onus

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Speaker 3: back on them to take care of our kids.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's because too many parents either won't do

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Speaker 1: it or be want to be their kids' best friends,

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Speaker 1: so they actively assist them to be online or see,

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Speaker 1: it's just too hard, like parents are just what they're trying.

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Speaker 1: They're trying, they're trying, and the kids find ways around it.

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Speaker 1: So now the focus is very much on what the

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Speaker 1: platforms are going to do to keep kids off.

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Speaker 3: So who gets in trouble if someone falls through the cracks?

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Speaker 3: Is it the platform or is it parents and kids?

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Speaker 1: Okay, So again, if we have a look at the

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Speaker 1: FAQ on the E Safety website, it says this there

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Speaker 1: are no penalties for under sixteens who access an age

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Speaker 1: restricted social media platform. There are no penalties for their

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Speaker 1: parents or cares. This is about protecting young people, not

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Speaker 1: punishing or isolating them. The goal is to help parents

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Speaker 1: and cares support their health and well being of under sixteens.

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Speaker 1: The penalties therefore go to the platforms. A court can

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Speaker 1: order civil penalties for platforms that don't take reasonable steps

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Speaker 1: to prevent underage users from having accounts on their platforms.

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Speaker 1: This includes court imposed fines of up to a total

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Speaker 1: of forty nine point five million Australian dollars. That is,

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Speaker 1: for each case brought against Meta or against TikTok, or

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Speaker 1: against Snap or against a YouTube. For each case where

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Speaker 1: it can be proved that they have not taken reasonable

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Speaker 1: steps to prevent an under sixteen accessing their platform, they

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Speaker 1: can be fined up to forty nine point five million dollars.

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Speaker 3: I know you and a handful of your colleagues worked

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Speaker 3: really hard to get this legislation in place, and I

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Speaker 3: know that it means a lot to you, But I

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Speaker 3: am curious. Do you really think that this is going

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Speaker 3: to move the needle at all for our kids?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean it will. It's not going to change everything.

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Speaker 1: They've still got access to gaming. There's still work to

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Speaker 1: be done in terms of access to explicit content. They

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Speaker 1: will still be able to be on the platforms in

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Speaker 1: one form or another, in that the platforms can continue

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Speaker 1: to serve up content in the public domain, and kids

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Speaker 1: and screens are inextricably linked. But I think it is

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Speaker 1: going to soften the impact of the platforms. I think

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Speaker 1: the platforms for under sixteens are going to become less engaging,

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Speaker 1: and that's because the algorithm no longer knows who they are.

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Speaker 1: They can't log in unless they're using their parents accounts,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know too many parents that are going

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Speaker 1: to be like, of course, you can have my social

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Speaker 1: media account. Here's the thing I reckon. There's going to

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Speaker 1: be some parents who are going to sign up for

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Speaker 1: like a second account and just let the kids use

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Speaker 1: that one. You can be me. But the algorithm, apparently

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Speaker 1: this is hearsay. We'll be able to tell whether it's

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Speaker 1: a teenager using the account or not, and hopefully that

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Speaker 1: will flag it and be like, Okay, a parent has

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Speaker 1: signed up for this pretended it's them, but it's actually

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Speaker 1: the child. I have a sense that the technology company

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Speaker 1: is going to be able to figure out who's using it,

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Speaker 1: and forty nine point five million dollar fines are not

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Speaker 1: attractive to companies like this. This should work. Let me

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Speaker 1: also highlight there is enormous support among parents and even

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Speaker 1: surprisingly some growing support among young people for this ban

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Speaker 1: for this minimum age legislation. Ahead of the implementation, YouGov

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Speaker 1: did a survey and found that seventy seven percent of

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Speaker 1: Australians back the under sixteen social media minimum age legislation.

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Speaker 1: That's up from sixty one percent just a few months earlier,

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Speaker 1: there's only twenty three percent that opposed the measure. In addition,

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Speaker 1: eighty seven percent of Austrains support the introduction of stronger

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Speaker 1: penalties for social media companies that are doing this. The

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Speaker 1: polls are showing really strong support across all aspects of

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Speaker 1: the government's proposed social media regulations.

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Speaker 3: So I feel like there are going to be so

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Speaker 3: many found is that are going to be breathing a

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Speaker 3: sigh of relief that finally they have a village that's

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Speaker 3: actually starting to recognize the damage that this is doing

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Speaker 3: to individuals and family units. But I'm also concerned that

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Speaker 3: in doing so, parents become less vigilant. And I think

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Speaker 3: that this actually would suggest that more than ever, as parents,

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Speaker 3: we actually need to band together and we need to

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Speaker 3: be more vigilant than we've ever been because we've now

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Speaker 3: been given this safeguard. It's in place, and if we

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Speaker 3: can honor that safeguard and work together as communities to

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Speaker 3: continue to safeguard our children in more profoundly impactful ways,

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Speaker 3: that's when the needle shifts, not because the government's put

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Speaker 3: in this policy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so nature will fill a vacuum, and if the

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Speaker 1: kids aren't able to do X, y Z, they'll find

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Speaker 1: something else to do there. And so it's going to

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Speaker 1: be up to us to make sure that we're delaying

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Speaker 1: access to screen, having conversations with kids about what they're

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Speaker 1: doing on screens, and giving them in riching environments where

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Speaker 1: they can go and be creative, come up with other ideas,

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Speaker 1: do other things that are going to be far more

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Speaker 1: in their best interests. If we just think, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: the government's done it now we don't have to do anything,

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Speaker 1: then we're selling our children short. And we're also we

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Speaker 1: have far too much belief in the power of legislation.

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Speaker 1: It can move the needle, but it's not going to

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Speaker 1: change everything.

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Speaker 3: I was actually speaking with a young man recently about

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Speaker 3: his real fears that this is just another ploy from

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Speaker 3: the government to take control of us. They want they

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Speaker 3: want they want our id they want to you know,

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Speaker 3: they want to know everything about us, and that we're

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Speaker 3: heading towards a dictatorship because we no longer have the

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Speaker 3: choice to decide whether or not we will have an account.

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Speaker 1: How do you allay those fears?

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Speaker 3: Because for him it was real, like it was intensely

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Speaker 3: real for him.

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Speaker 1: So a couple of things. First, of all, young men

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Speaker 1: and young women who are getting all of their news

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Speaker 1: from influencers who are spreading fear and panic are just

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Speaker 1: going to end up with anxiety and be miserable about it.

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Speaker 1: Number two, you don't have to have an account if

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Speaker 1: you don't want to, so nobody's getting your details if

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Speaker 1: you're not putting your details up there. If you do

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Speaker 1: want to have an account, guess what. Alphabet is the

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Speaker 1: parent company of Google, who also owns YouTube and Meta.

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Speaker 1: They know more about you than you know about you,

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Speaker 1: and they like, if you're worried about the government knowing

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Speaker 1: about you, I'd be just as concerned, if not more concerned,

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Speaker 1: about what these corporations know. And they know everything. And

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Speaker 1: by the way, the government knows everything about you as well.

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Speaker 1: They know where you live. They've got all of your

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Speaker 1: ID already because of things like driver's licenses and passports

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Speaker 1: and because of spending habits. The ATO does actually talk

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Speaker 1: to the banks and gets all the information about where

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Speaker 1: money is coming from, where money is going to the

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Speaker 1: idea that this is going to turn us into a

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Speaker 1: surveillance state. The Big Brother is watching that ship sailed

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Speaker 1: years ago, right like we're already there we're already there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if you don't want to be on the grid, use cash,

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Speaker 1: get rid of your social media, don't have a credit card,

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Speaker 1: be very very careful about even having an email account,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know, get a dial up phone for

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Speaker 1: your wall in your kitchen, and don't talk to me

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Speaker 1: on a mobile phone. It's conspiracy theory thinking at its

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Speaker 1: its most basic, and I just don't buy it. The

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Speaker 1: government already has all the information they need is kind

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Speaker 1: of where I'm going with that.

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Speaker 3: So you alluded to it earlier on in your comments,

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Speaker 3: The idea that there is quite a lot of misunderstanding

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Speaker 3: about what this policy is and what it is going

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Speaker 3: to I guess give us as a community. Can you

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Speaker 3: just unpack some of that for us?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so let's go through. I'm going to go

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Speaker 1: through each platform and I'll do this fairly quickly. All

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Speaker 1: this information is available online. But if you listen to

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Speaker 1: the pod and you're sort of going, oh, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: need to figure out what we're doing about this YouTube.

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Speaker 1: What stays for under sixteens is this full access to

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Speaker 1: view or content, but you're going to be accountless, You're

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Speaker 1: going to be logged out. That includes via web browsers.

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Speaker 1: It includes the YouTube app. As an under sixteen, you're

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Speaker 1: logged out unless you're using your parents account because sometimes

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Speaker 1: parents stay logged in like on the TV or something

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Speaker 1: like that, you're going to be logged out. And therefore

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Speaker 1: what goes is the cross device, cross session personalized algorithmic recommendations.

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Speaker 1: You know how when you're on one device and you're

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Speaker 1: going to the next device and you can kind of

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Speaker 1: pick up watching what you're watching from elsewhere, it knows,

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Speaker 1: it knows who you are, it knows what you've been watching,

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Speaker 1: and it continues to recommend things to you because it

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Speaker 1: knows you on all of your devices. So that goes.

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Speaker 1: The ability to upload and post content goes, and the

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Speaker 1: ability to interact with strangers in the comments goes for

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Speaker 1: YouTube as well. When it comes to Instagram, very very

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Speaker 1: limited access. So as part of the way that they

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Speaker 1: acquire users on Instagram, Meta pretty much restricts access to

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Speaker 1: people who have an account. You can get public access

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Speaker 1: to landing pages and maybe a little bit, but they

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Speaker 1: pretty strongly restrict browsing of any public content unless you

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Speaker 1: have an account, and that's a business decision made by Meta,

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Speaker 1: that's not an Australian government decision. So what's going to

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Speaker 1: go if you're under sixteen? There goes the cross device,

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Speaker 1: cross session of personalized algorithmic recommendations. Again, it doesn't know

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Speaker 1: who you are. You also won't be able to have

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Speaker 1: unlimited scrolling. That's just gone. That's against the way that

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Speaker 1: Instagram works. You'll lose the ability to upload and post content,

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Speaker 1: the ability to react to or comment on other people's posts,

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Speaker 1: the ability to interact with strangers via the comments, the

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Speaker 1: ability to interact with strangers via DMS, no more direct messaging. Also,

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Speaker 1: there won't be any notifications that lure you back to

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Speaker 1: the platform, and you're going to lose most access unless

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Speaker 1: Meta changes as policy, and you also won't have meta

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Speaker 1: AI access, which I think is fantastic and that's going

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Speaker 1: to apply pretty much across Facebook as well.

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Speaker 3: So that is really going to impact how our teenagers communicate.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent. And again that's why building that

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Speaker 1: community and finding ways to fill that vacuum, fill that hole,

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Speaker 1: making sure that kids have got a way to be

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Speaker 1: in touch with each other matters. Good news is there

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Speaker 1: are I mean Wayne Warburton about a month ago on

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Speaker 1: the podcast when I raised that with him. He just said,

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Speaker 1: it's just ridiculous. There are so many ways for kids

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Speaker 1: to get in touch with each other even without using

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Speaker 1: the dominant social media platforms that if they're crying foul

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Speaker 1: over that, they're just not using their imaginations. It's still

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Speaker 1: completely doable. What about okay, So TikTok once again, here's

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Speaker 1: what stays. All of the public content via a web

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Speaker 1: browser that's going to remain available as it currently is.

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Speaker 1: Any public content and landing pages that you can access

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Speaker 1: without an account, you'll still be able to see that,

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Speaker 1: and you will be able to see the comments from

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Speaker 1: other users. But remember this, the TikTok mobile app will

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Speaker 1: require an account to use, and if you're under sixteen,

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Speaker 1: you won't be allowed to have an account. So here's

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Speaker 1: what goes access to private content once again, the cross device,

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Speaker 1: cross session, personalized algorithmic recommendations that I'm going to just

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Speaker 1: throw in here. TikTok is a China It's owned by ByteDance,

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Speaker 1: which is a Chinese owned company, and the CCP, the

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Speaker 1: Chinese Communist Party, has their tentacles into every single Chinese organization,

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Speaker 1: so fundamentally those recommendations are controlled by the Chinese government,

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Speaker 1: and I think that that's going to be a really

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Speaker 1: good thing that our young kids aren't being exposed to

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Speaker 1: what the Chinese government wants them to see. If you're

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Speaker 1: on TikTok and you're under sixteen, you won't be able

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Speaker 1: to upload and post content, or react to or comment

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Speaker 1: on other people's posts, or react with strangers, or send

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Speaker 1: direct messages, and you won't get those notifications bringing you

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Speaker 1: back to the platform. It's basically the same with Snapchat

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Speaker 1: as well. That's the only platform that we haven't covered.

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Speaker 1: That's one of the major ones. You still get all

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Speaker 1: the public content via web browsers, but Snapchat is designed

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Speaker 1: to use with an account, So if you are a

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Speaker 1: teenager under sixteen, you're not going to have disappearing messages,

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Speaker 1: you're not going to get access to private content, you're

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Speaker 1: not going to get the gamified streaks that increase that

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Speaker 1: pressure to keep you there. You're going to lose the notifications,

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Speaker 1: all the stuff that we're talking about. This is going

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Speaker 1: to severely hamper restricts, reduce access to and time on

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Speaker 1: social media for our young people if they're under sixteen.

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Speaker 1: There will be ways around it because people always find it,

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Speaker 1: but generally speaking when social media platforms are going to

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Speaker 1: get stung forty nine point five million dollars for not

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Speaker 1: taking every reasonable precaution. This is a win for our

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Speaker 1: young people.

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Speaker 3: So guess my last question for you is understanding and

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Speaker 3: recognizing how prevalent the use of social media has been

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Speaker 3: for about thirteen plus and sometimes much younger children. In essence,

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Speaker 3: we're going cold turkey. One day they're going to have

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Speaker 3: access and the next day they're not. Right, is there

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Speaker 3: going to be anything available to parents to help them

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Speaker 3: navigate that transition period.

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Speaker 1: I keep on getting so many like I've had so

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Speaker 1: many interviews in the press and in the media about this,

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Speaker 1: and my response is they'll be okay, Like they'll be

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Speaker 1: a little bit sad, they'll be a little bit frustrated,

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Speaker 1: and then they'll figure it out. Kids are creative, Kids have ingenuity.

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Speaker 1: Kids will start to hassle you about different ways that

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Speaker 1: they can contact their friends. You'll have to do that

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Speaker 1: thing that parents used to do before social media, Like

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Speaker 1: go back fifteen twenty years where parents used to talk

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Speaker 1: to each other about getting the kids together, and then

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Speaker 1: the kids are going to have to do things like

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Speaker 1: ring each other or send each other text messages or

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Speaker 1: get on the bike and ride to each other's houses. Again,

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Speaker 1: there are going to be some kids who struggle. There

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Speaker 1: are going to be some disadvantages. I'm not denying that,

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Speaker 1: but overwhelmingly I think this is a net positive.

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Speaker 3: I think back on our parenting journey and I remember

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Speaker 3: the day our eldest received, against our desire, a mobile phone,

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Speaker 3: and I look at the lives that we lived before

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Speaker 3: those small devices were placed in our kids' hands, and

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Speaker 3: maybe I'm wearing rose colored glasses, but family life was

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Speaker 3: so much simpler. There were some challenges, obviously, family life

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Speaker 3: is full of it. It's messy, but on the whole,

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Speaker 3: the challenges that we were experiencing were everyday challenges as

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Speaker 3: opposed to a constant navigation of impactful negatively impactful information

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Speaker 3: that our children are being fed on a daily basis.

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Speaker 3: And as much as there's been some good that's come

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Speaker 3: out of them, honestly, I'd go back to the day

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Speaker 3: when my phone was stuck on a wall any day.

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Speaker 1: I know we're sounding like a couple of old fogies

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Speaker 1: right now, but I just don't think that the changes

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Speaker 1: that social media has brought to the world have been

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Speaker 1: a fundamentally positive. I think social media has been an

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Speaker 1: overall net negative in far too many lives to justify

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Speaker 1: its existence.

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Speaker 3: If for no other reason, then it zaps our time

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Speaker 3: and literally takes us away out I've lost human people

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Speaker 3: that matter most in our lives.

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Speaker 1: If anyway, I'm going to talk to Julian and Grant,

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Speaker 1: the ESCAPT Commissioner, in the next couple of weeks about

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Speaker 1: more around this. If this has been helpful, please share

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Speaker 1: it with somebody you know who's maybe struggling with or

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Speaker 1: has some questions around these topics. And play it for

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Speaker 1: your kids as well, because the kids will want to

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Speaker 1: know what's going on and this could be helpful. Play

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Speaker 1: it on one and a half speed. I mean, they

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Speaker 1: don't need to listen to us talk in slow motion.

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Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast has been produced today by Justin

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Speaker 1: Ruland from Bridge Medium. Imhammits provides additional research, admin and

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Speaker 1: other support, and if you'd like more information about making

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Speaker 1: your family happy, visit us at happy families dot com

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Speaker 1: dot au.