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Speaker 1: Okay, so we are getting towards the business end of

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Speaker 1: the year, especially if you are sending a year twelve

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Speaker 1: student off to school. We only have a matter of

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Speaker 1: weeks now until year twelve exams kick off. A whole

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Speaker 1: lot of schools have demanded that university applications go in

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Speaker 1: so that kids know what they're doing next year, assuming

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Speaker 1: they're going to go to UNI. Today on the podcast,

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Speaker 1: a conversation about careers, career counseling and what your kids

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Speaker 1: are supposed to do when it comes to the end

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Speaker 1: of school. Stay with us. Hello and welcome to The

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Speaker 1: Happy Family's podcast. Moname's doctor Justin Coulson. This is where

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Speaker 1: you get real parenting solutions every day on Australia's most

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Speaker 1: downloaded parenting podcast. Today, I am delighted to be joined

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Speaker 1: by Amy Dyer. Amy Dyer is a careers counselor with

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Speaker 1: more than twenty years of experience working with senior school

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Speaker 1: students in schools around Queensland. Her aim is to empowers

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Speaker 1: you some parents to make informed decisions regarding senior schooling

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Speaker 1: and vocational and tertiary pathways. We will link to Amy's

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Speaker 1: details in the show notes. But Amy really glad that

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Speaker 1: you've joined me on the podcast today, I'm putting my

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Speaker 1: fourth daughter, three year twelve. As we speak, she's about

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Speaker 1: to do a final exams. We're literally living it and

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Speaker 1: going through everything's associated with it right now. And the

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Speaker 1: scaling conversation is one that keeps on coming up, and

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Speaker 1: it's one that I sort of dismissed with a wave

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Speaker 1: of the hand and say, don't worry about it, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter. But for parents who are really concerned about

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Speaker 1: how their students subjects, how their child subjects are going

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Speaker 1: to be scaled up or down, and where they come

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Speaker 1: in the class and the cohort and that sort of thing,

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Speaker 1: what does this really mean?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this could be a controversial answer because it's not

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Speaker 2: going to suit the narrative of all schools. So scaling

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Speaker 2: is something if we're going to keep it really simple,

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Speaker 2: where there is a governing body and they determine what

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Speaker 2: subjects scale higher or lower. Scaling simply means that there

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Speaker 2: is a decision that has been made by somebody else,

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Speaker 2: not the school, that determines that, for example, a higher

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Speaker 2: level math is harder.

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Speaker 3: To achieve well in than a lower level math. But

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Speaker 3: that spreads across the entire curriculum of subjects.

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Speaker 2: So when we're talking scaling, there are a lot of

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Speaker 2: myths out there, and I spend a lot of my

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Speaker 2: day busting those myths. But essentially, from my point of

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Speaker 2: view and from my opinion only, I look at scaling

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Speaker 2: as important if you are wanting, needing or know you

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Speaker 2: can achieve an ATAR of about a ninety five or higher.

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Speaker 3: When we're playing in that.

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Speaker 2: Upper end of the atars, we do need to look

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Speaker 2: at scaling. Unfortunately, there are just some subjects that if

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Speaker 2: you choose to do them, they could limit your ability

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Speaker 2: to get.

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Speaker 3: Up into that range. But I guess the question justin

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Speaker 3: is whether or not you need to be in that range, because.

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Speaker 2: There is a way to get into any course and

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Speaker 2: any outcome in any career, irrespective of ATA. And that

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Speaker 2: is the job that I essentially do working with students

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Speaker 2: to look at what's direct and what we can use

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Speaker 2: as a backup to get to UNI. But if we

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Speaker 2: start talking about scaling and making sure that we're doing

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Speaker 2: subjects that get us up into that high range, I

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Speaker 2: think what we're essentially doing to our students is teaching

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Speaker 2: them that the purpose of learning is to get the

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Speaker 2: best result possible. And as you and I know, if

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Speaker 2: we can look at our time in industry and time

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Speaker 2: in work, we're not actually about the best result. We're

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Speaker 2: about the most appropriate result, what works for our business,

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Speaker 2: what works for our day to day world. And that

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Speaker 2: doesn't have to mean that we have achieved exceptionally well,

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Speaker 2: it just means that we know what we're doing, and

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Speaker 2: we're capable, and we actually enjoy what we're learning and

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Speaker 2: what we're working toward.

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Speaker 1: Amy, let's go there. I was going to come to

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Speaker 1: this later, but you've brought it up tertiary pathways. Well,

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Speaker 1: first of all, I just have this belief that children

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Speaker 1: and shouldn't be going straight to university. So here's my

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Speaker 1: question for your gap years gap yeares, Over the last

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Speaker 1: i'd say ten years, I've shifted enormously from maybe to

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Speaker 1: almost definitely accept in the rarest of cases. Now, that's

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Speaker 1: a fairly extreme position to hold. But where do you

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Speaker 1: stand on gap years? What are your thoughts?

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Speaker 2: I'm with you there, justin I would say that there

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Speaker 2: was a point in time where I was the same

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Speaker 2: as you that just be careful.

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Speaker 3: We don't want to stop the momentum.

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Speaker 2: We want that learning to continue from school, into university

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Speaker 2: and then into industry. But recently there has been and

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Speaker 2: when I say recently, I'm thinking somewhere in around the

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Speaker 2: last five to ten years, there has been a certain

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Speaker 2: change that has we just seem to be seeing higher

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Speaker 2: levels of burnout with our students. And I find that

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Speaker 2: I'm having a lot of conversations with students where they're saying,

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Speaker 2: I just need a minute, I just need to finish

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Speaker 2: year twelve, and I just need a in it.

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Speaker 3: And I think because we go.

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Speaker 2: Back to this narrative all the time of what is

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Speaker 2: success when you're in a school system, success is the

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Speaker 2: atar that's the ultimate for most students that are eligible.

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Speaker 2: I find that if I'm having a conversation with my

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Speaker 2: vocational students, that is not their narrative of success. They

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Speaker 2: have found a different way to work through their schooling

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Speaker 2: and they have a different idea of what their goals

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Speaker 2: are and why they're working in the way that they are.

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Speaker 2: But those that are working in an atar narrative, we

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Speaker 2: are looking at success based on the number that they achieve.

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Speaker 2: And I will often ask students do you have a

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Speaker 2: number in mind? And they will simply say yes, I do.

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Speaker 2: And I ask if you don't achieve that how you feel,

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Speaker 2: and I do here certainly through a wide variety of

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Speaker 2: clients that it can look like failure if they don't

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Speaker 2: get to that number.

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Speaker 1: So University, a couple of quick ideas here, and I'd

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Speaker 1: love to get your support or any pushback on what

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Speaker 1: I'm about to share. First off, I failed year twelve.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I keep on talking about how I graduated

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Speaker 1: year twelve, but I think that's an inappropriate term to

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Speaker 1: use because I scored on the bottom fifteenth percent of

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Speaker 1: the state. But I did complete year twelve somehow. I've

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Speaker 1: got a piece of paper that said that I was finished.

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Speaker 1: So I finished school somehow. I got to the end

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Speaker 1: of year twelve, had a radio career media for nearly

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Speaker 1: a decade, and then went back to Taife and then

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Speaker 1: university as a twenty seven year old and stayed for

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Speaker 1: eight and a half years full time study and ended

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Speaker 1: up being a doctor. I have a couple of friends

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Speaker 1: who have done similar things. In fact, I've got one

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Speaker 1: mate who've finished school halfway through year eleven, just hated

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Speaker 1: it and then went on to go to university later

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Speaker 1: in life and became a He's now a specialist working

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Speaker 1: in hospitals in South Australia. All of this is to say,

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Speaker 1: we make such a big deal about getting into your

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Speaker 1: first preference or getting into university or whatever it is.

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Speaker 3: I feel like.

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Speaker 1: There's just so much angst and so much stress around

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Speaker 1: it completely unnecessarily tell me where I'm wrong or am

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Speaker 1: I dead on?

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Speaker 3: Here? Are you dead on?

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Speaker 2: That's a big one to unpack, and I think I

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Speaker 2: want to start with saying that when I meet with

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Speaker 2: students and we are having genuine and authentic conversations about

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Speaker 2: their interest areas, and I don't talk to them about

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Speaker 2: their results at all, I ask them about the way

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Speaker 2: in which they process information, how they like to learn,

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Speaker 2: are they problem solvers?

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Speaker 3: Are they communicators? I ask them a simple question like

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Speaker 3: what does leadership look like to you?

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Speaker 2: And because we don't ask students these questions, because they're

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Speaker 2: not wrapped up around assessments, they actually don't really know

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Speaker 2: how to answer some of these questions. So when they

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Speaker 2: are picking a course, and when we've sort of narrowed

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Speaker 2: it down to a few areas, I'll find there's often

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Speaker 2: hesitancy when we're looking at courses that have a high atar,

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Speaker 2: and I will ask them is this because this is

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Speaker 2: not some thing that you're thinking is for you, or

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Speaker 2: are you worried you simply can't get the atar, so

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Speaker 2: you are going to.

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Speaker 3: Exclude it from your choices.

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Speaker 2: And more often than not, students are putting those invisible

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Speaker 2: barriers up because they think, well, I can't get to

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Speaker 2: that atar, so therefore that can't be the career for me,

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Speaker 2: even though after all of my questions that I've asked them,

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Speaker 2: it would be a great fit.

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Speaker 3: So that's when we have the conversation about what a

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Speaker 3: pathway can look like.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about vocational studies and trades. My contention, my

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Speaker 1: hypothesis is as follows. We have a trades shortage. We

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Speaker 1: don't have enough houses, we don't have enough electricians, we

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Speaker 1: don't have enough plumbers, we don't have enough people who

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Speaker 1: can build stuff, and our country is only getting bigger.

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Speaker 1: And therefore, my sense is that if you've got a

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Speaker 1: child who wants to get into any of the trades,

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Speaker 1: manual trades, or even the indoor trades, there is going

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Speaker 1: to be so much demand for their services that they

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Speaker 1: will be able to forge a successful career, make all

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Speaker 1: the money that they need, and do just fine in life.

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Speaker 1: Two questions here, Am I right? And how do we

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Speaker 1: reduce the stigma for kids who go to university given

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Speaker 1: that only thirty percent of Australia dults do have a

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Speaker 1: university degree.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's a big question and one that I actually

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Speaker 2: feel genuinely passionate about. I've grown up in a family

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Speaker 2: of tradees. I personally went to university, but I have

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Speaker 2: a number of trades that surround me and they've been

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Speaker 2: extremely successful in their lives. I think that we as

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Speaker 2: parents need to do our research on the school we are.

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Speaker 3: Sending our student to.

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Speaker 2: And I might be baking a broad statement here, but

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Speaker 2: we don't know what We don't know who our children.

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Speaker 3: Are when we start them somewhere in prep.

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Speaker 2: So for me, if I was looking for a school

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Speaker 2: that was able to support my student whichever way that

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Speaker 2: they decide to grow and develop, I would be looking

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Speaker 2: at a school that comes from the angle of do

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Speaker 2: they offer a broad curriculum and can my student or

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Speaker 2: can my child world be successful in school with a

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Speaker 2: trade and can they achieve well with an am tariff?

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Speaker 3: UNI is for them?

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Speaker 2: So we have our state schooling is amazing for that

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Speaker 2: they have one of the most broadest curriculums that they

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Speaker 2: can to suit all the different learners that go into

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Speaker 2: our state system from the private sector. It is a business,

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Speaker 2: and they are going to choose the narrative that best

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Speaker 2: suits the clients how they're aiming for.

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Speaker 3: So some private schools are going to be very heavy

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Speaker 3: and vocational.

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Speaker 2: Some are going to balance their curriculum across both, and

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Speaker 2: others are going to stay in that more academic space.

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Speaker 2: None of those schools are right or wrong. They all

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Speaker 2: have a place. We just have to make sure that

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Speaker 2: if our student is at a school where you're feeling

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Speaker 2: it's not going to meet their needs moving forward, that

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Speaker 2: it's okay to make a move.

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Speaker 3: It's safe to make a move.

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Speaker 2: And it will allow your student or your child to

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Speaker 2: be able to develop a skill set that aligns more

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Speaker 2: with who they are as they grow and develop and

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Speaker 2: as we learn who they are.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so my segue into my final question, how does

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Speaker 1: other than maybe listen to a conversation like this, How

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Speaker 1: does a kid in your ten year eleven or year twelve,

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Speaker 1: or even a twenty four year old, or perhaps even

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Speaker 1: a forty six year old who's listening to us talk now,

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Speaker 1: how do you decide what you're supposed to do with

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Speaker 1: your life.

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Speaker 3: You start with your best guess and see where it

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Speaker 3: leads you.

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad you said that. I literally just put

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Speaker 1: my hand up in the air. This is what I

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Speaker 1: keep saying to my kids. You're not supposed to know.

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Speaker 1: You just try you just try stuff. Yeah, just be productive,

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Speaker 1: Just do something.

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Speaker 2: And I want to also add to that, I just

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Speaker 2: want students and parents out there to genuinely hear just

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Speaker 2: because you don't follow the crowd doesn't mean you're not

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Speaker 2: learning and not continuing to develop your skill set. I

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Speaker 2: genuinely think it's a better type of learning when you

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Speaker 2: get out of what is such a standardized system that

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Speaker 2: schools are and you take a minute to work out

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Speaker 2: who you are.

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Speaker 1: Amy Dyer, what a delightful conversation. I really hope that

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Speaker 1: parents will share this with their kids who are going

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Speaker 1: through those senior years of school, and hopefully it will

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Speaker 1: lead to some great discussions over the dining table about

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Speaker 1: what to do, how to do it, and when to

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Speaker 1: do it.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I hope so too that they need that safe

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Speaker 2: space to be able to come.

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Speaker 3: Up with it on their own.

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Speaker 1: Amy Dyer is a careers counselor. You can find her

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Speaker 1: details at Amydier dot com dot you if you'd like

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Speaker 1: to engage with Amy and see if she can offer

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Speaker 1: the advice, support and direction that you might be struggling

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Speaker 1: to find in your family with your kids. Amy delight

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Speaker 1: to talk with you. Thanks so much for being on

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Speaker 1: the podcast. The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin

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Speaker 1: Ruland from Bridge Media. More information and resources to make

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Speaker 1: your family happier available at happy families dot com dot

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Speaker 1: u