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Speaker 1: So the idea what the highlight is that each day,

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Speaker 1: you know, in the morning or the night before, I

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Speaker 1: try to think about the following day and say, Okay,

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Speaker 1: if I could fast forward to the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: if I imagine that in my mind, I imagine it's the

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Speaker 1: end of the day and I'm looking back on the day,

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Speaker 1: what do I want to say was what do I

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Speaker 1: hope will be the highlight of my day?

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Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics

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Speaker 2: used by the world's most successful people to get so

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Speaker 2: much out of their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imba.

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Speaker 2: I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium,

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Speaker 2: and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work

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Speaker 2: day now. Something that I'm doing at the moment is

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Speaker 2: I'm reaching back out to some of my favorite guests

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Speaker 2: that I've had over the last two years to see

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Speaker 2: how the way they approach they work has changed in

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Speaker 2: light of COVID and everything we've been going through. So

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Speaker 2: my guest today is Jake Knapp. I had Jake on

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Speaker 2: the show probably a bit over a year ago now,

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Speaker 2: and he was just awesome. So a bit about Jake.

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Speaker 2: He spent the last ten years at Google and Google Ventures,

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Speaker 2: where he created the design Sprint, which is a method

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Speaker 2: for building and testing a prototype in five days, and

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Speaker 2: if you work in the innovation space like me, you

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Speaker 2: will definitely have come across design Sprints. He then went

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Speaker 2: on and wrote a book about the process called Sprint,

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Speaker 2: which was a New York Times bestseller, and about a

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Speaker 2: year ago he read another book called Make Time, which

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Speaker 2: we talked about in depth when I last had him

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Speaker 2: on the show, and I personally loved Make Time, which

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Speaker 2: is all about strategies to help make time for doing

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Speaker 2: your most important work and really getting the most out

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Speaker 2: of each day. So it was great to reconnect with Jake.

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Speaker 2: He's definitely, I guess encountered some challenges during lockdown, and

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Speaker 2: what I love most about interview is just how honestly

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Speaker 2: Jake spoke about some of the challenges that he has

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Speaker 2: when it comes to being productive. I think it's quite

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Speaker 2: rare that someone that is, you know, a global thought

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Speaker 2: leader in the space of productivity, you know, talks about

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Speaker 2: their own challenges that they have around being productive. So

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Speaker 2: I also share a bit about some of the changes

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Speaker 2: that I've been making to the way I work and

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Speaker 2: some of the things that we're contemplating. It inventium in

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Speaker 2: changing as an organization about how we work. So on

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Speaker 2: that note, let's head over to Jake to hear about

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Speaker 2: how he works. Jake, Hello, and welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: I Meanta, thank you for having me. I'm so glad

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Speaker 1: to be back.

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Speaker 2: I know it's good. I really loved our chat from

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Speaker 2: I want to say a year ago. I think back

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Speaker 2: when make Time came out.

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Speaker 1: I think it was it could be yeah time. I mean,

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Speaker 1: who knows anymore what time is, but yeah, something like that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, cool. And now I think you're now based

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Speaker 2: in Seattle. Is that correct?

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Speaker 1: That's right? Yeah, I have since moved to Seattle, which

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Speaker 1: is a move home for me more or less. I

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Speaker 1: grew up in the state here, so not so far away,

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Speaker 1: and we lived in Seattle for many years before going

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Speaker 1: to San Francisco. We lived there for eight years. I

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Speaker 1: think San Francisco is lovely, but it is nice to

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Speaker 1: be back home.

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Speaker 2: Excellent. Now I want you to set the scene in

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Speaker 2: terms of what what lockdown has been like for you

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Speaker 2: in Seattle. How long have you been at home, what's

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Speaker 2: the kind of situation, particularly around your working life in Seattle.

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Speaker 1: I don't like the coronavirus. I'm not a fan of

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Speaker 1: it at all. I really, I'll just I'm just I

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Speaker 1: know that might be like a controversial stance, very sick,

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Speaker 1: but I'm very anti COVID nineteen and I mean, I'm

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Speaker 1: definitely So it's so sad. So you know, think everything

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Speaker 1: going on with with people who have died and what's

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Speaker 1: going on with the economy and people lost their jobs

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Speaker 1: and so on. But it's also affected me personally and

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Speaker 1: like kind of a it's been not great. My son,

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Speaker 1: my older son, seems to have gotten it. Actually, we

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Speaker 1: just he just gottenn antibody test today, so we don't

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Speaker 1: know the results of that yet. But he's been sick

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Speaker 1: now for like, oh gosh, like he got sick at

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Speaker 1: the end of February and what is it now, May

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Speaker 1: so so kind of March April two plus, two and

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Speaker 1: a half months almost three and he's I mean, he's

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Speaker 1: well and he's fine, and we're not worried about him,

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Speaker 1: but it's just been like this ongoing thing of like

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Speaker 1: what's going on. He still has shortness of breath and

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Speaker 1: we worry, you know, parents worry, and so there's that

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Speaker 1: you worry about yourself and you know, our parents. So

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Speaker 1: we've we were in sort of quarantine a bit early

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Speaker 1: for the US because Seattle happened we moved here and

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Speaker 1: then lo and behold it was the first city to

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Speaker 1: have an outbreak of COVID nineteen. And then I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, our son got sick with it kind of

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Speaker 1: like even before they wouldn't even test people who hadn't

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Speaker 1: been to China at the time that he got sick.

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Speaker 1: So he has all the symptoms but wasn't tested. And

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Speaker 1: then we were super freaked out as we've realized that

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Speaker 1: might be what he had, Like are we going to

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Speaker 1: get it? You know, and we're trying to, like, you know,

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Speaker 1: quarantine him as much as we can, but you can't.

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Speaker 1: There's only so much you can do. So we may

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Speaker 1: have gotten it too, and we've just so we started

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Speaker 1: off is weird. We started off like super stressed, and

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Speaker 1: then I think we have slowly been able to get

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Speaker 1: into a new normal, a new temporary normal. And what

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to do now is kind of my I

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Speaker 1: have a few projects I'm trying to accomplish, but I

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Speaker 1: suppose the main work project is trying to write a

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Speaker 1: science fiction book, and I was trying to complete a

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Speaker 1: draft of it and during the time that, you know,

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Speaker 1: during this pandemic time, and so I've had to kind

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Speaker 1: of after a new way of working once we felt

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Speaker 1: like the family was stable enough and we could talk

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Speaker 1: about that and and I had a few other projects.

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Speaker 1: But also a big, a big part of my day

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Speaker 1: in many people's day now is being a parent, being

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Speaker 1: you know, managing school stuff that's still kind of going

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Speaker 1: on and is amazingly, astonishingly disruptive. And yeah, so it's yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's just wild. That's kind of the backdrop for me

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Speaker 1: right now.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Wow, that is intense. And I did, I did

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Speaker 2: read that about your son and your sprint newsletter, and

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Speaker 2: that just sounds like an absolutely awful, horrible, scary thing

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Speaker 2: to be dealing with in amongst all the other negative

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Speaker 2: things that that Corona has given us. So yes, that

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Speaker 2: that is challenging. I do want to talk about homeschooling,

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Speaker 2: but I want to start with these new ways of

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Speaker 2: working at because I you know, I was thinking about you,

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Speaker 2: because you have, you know, such a clear and well

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Speaker 2: thought out and deliberate approach to how you do your work,

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Speaker 2: which obviously you laid out really brilliantly in Make Time,

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Speaker 2: And I want to know what are the new ways

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Speaker 2: of working that you've implemented for yourself. What does that

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Speaker 2: look like?

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Speaker 1: Now, well, it's it's you know, it may may sort

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Speaker 1: of undermine all of your thoughts that I am well,

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Speaker 1: well organized and well thought through, and we as we

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Speaker 1: talk about it, and we will talk about it, but

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Speaker 1: first maybe you talk about this in the intro. But

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Speaker 1: what's you got to set the stage for you? What's

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Speaker 1: going on with you right now? What's your situation with yeah,

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Speaker 1: with COVID and with your work life balance, because we

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Speaker 1: can't have a conversation if I don't know fair enough.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, So my situation is we as a team,

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Speaker 2: we've been working from home since the beginning of March,

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Speaker 2: so we were a little bit head I think of

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Speaker 2: when everyone started to mandate working from home. So that's

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Speaker 2: been about three months now. Wow, because we're at the

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Speaker 2: end of May, we're recording.

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Speaker 1: This in Australia. You guys got you guys got Tom

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Speaker 1: Hanks sick with the CORONAVA.

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Speaker 2: I know we got We've got Tom sick and you

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Speaker 2: know that's really all that matters in terms of what's

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Speaker 2: going on in Australia. But I think, look, we've I think,

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Speaker 2: look it's been it's been pretty well managed here, it's

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Speaker 2: been contained. Lockdown regulations have been starting to ease here

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Speaker 2: over the last few weeks, so and look interestingly, like

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Speaker 2: I tend not to go out that much, but when

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Speaker 2: I have been, it feels like there's a sense that

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Speaker 2: people are kind of bulletproof and that we've kind of

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Speaker 2: gotten over the worst, and there's I don't know, I

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Speaker 2: feel like there's not a lot of social distancing going

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Speaker 2: on when I walk down the streets or into parks

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Speaker 2: and stuff, which is, you know, slightly concerning, But we'll

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Speaker 2: see for what happens. But for me personally, Yeah, And

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Speaker 2: I've also been juggling homeschooling. So my six year old

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Speaker 2: daughter is with me halftime and she's in year one,

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Speaker 2: so that's been challenging, but schools have challenging that. It

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Speaker 2: is a real challenge. But schools have opened up, so

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Speaker 2: she's now back at school now as of a week ago,

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Speaker 2: which just changes everything. Wow.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, super game change.

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Speaker 2: But I got to say I love working from home

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Speaker 2: so much I'm I'm quite introverted by nature, so I

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Speaker 2: don't really, you know, need the buzz of other people

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Speaker 2: in an office, even though I like that and I

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Speaker 2: love my team. But now as a team, we're talking about, well,

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Speaker 2: what are the permanent changes that we're going to make,

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Speaker 2: Like we're thinking about well, actually, no, we are trying

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Speaker 2: to get out of our leases in Melbourne and Sydney,

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Speaker 2: and we're thinking do we even need an office. We're

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Speaker 2: thinking about ideas like do we just get together, say

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Speaker 2: once every six weeks in a coworking space and we

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Speaker 2: actually have a sprint as a team or as subgroups

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Speaker 2: within our teams. So you know, so I am actually

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Speaker 2: quite curious because imagine there are a lot of companies

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Speaker 2: that a the world that have been doing virtual sprints,

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Speaker 2: and I know you've obviously been thinking about that, But

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Speaker 2: as a team, we're thinking, do we just get together

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Speaker 2: face to face for one week every six weeks and

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Speaker 2: kind of operate like that? And we're also thinking about

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Speaker 2: things like trialing the four day work week and yeah,

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Speaker 2: so we're just starting to think about how do we

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Speaker 2: completely reinvent the way that we work as a team.

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Speaker 2: So that's kind of my context right now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, that's that's super that's super interesting. And it's

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Speaker 1: because I don't I mean, I'm a one person company

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Speaker 1: sort of, and I don't so I and I intentionally

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Speaker 1: kind of, you know, left my job and kind of

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Speaker 1: crafted the situation where I was working from home because

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Speaker 1: like you, I'm introverted most of the time. I also

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Speaker 1: I like being around people in sort of certain contexts,

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Speaker 1: certain structured context but I really value the time to

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Speaker 1: just the quiet, you know, and just to be be

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Speaker 1: able to kind of walk upstairs and do my thing

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Speaker 1: and not not have to intersperse that with talking to,

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Speaker 1: you know, people too much outside of my family. And

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Speaker 1: and it's it's it can be great. And I think

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Speaker 1: that I they're so it's so easy and it's so

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Speaker 1: true to find all of the things that are really

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Speaker 1: negative and awful about this situation but the by which

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Speaker 1: I mean pandemic, but there there are going to be

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Speaker 1: a lot of good things that come from it. And

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Speaker 1: I think that this crazy like reset on the way

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Speaker 1: that again it's just like maybe one category of work,

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Speaker 1: and I obviously have to recognize that, but the category

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Speaker 1: of work that has traditionally been done in offices everybody

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Speaker 1: asks that out now has the opportunity to rethink what's

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Speaker 1: the best way to do that? And uh and you know,

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Speaker 1: I think it's going to be it's going to be

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Speaker 1: very interesting to see what the next years look like.

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Speaker 1: Uh And and I hope that people will be more

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Speaker 1: open to reinventing the way that they work and questioning

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Speaker 1: some of the stupid defaults it exists. I don't mean

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Speaker 1: to apply that your companies or your team's default are stupid,

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Speaker 1: but just in general, all of us do things that

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Speaker 1: we do by default, and some of those things like

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Speaker 1: don't make sense, but we're you know, we're mostly blind

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Speaker 1: to what they are until something happens, and man, something

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Speaker 1: has happened.

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Speaker 2: I know I reckon. One of the biggest shifts, like

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Speaker 2: from talking to some of my clients is that, like,

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Speaker 2: I think that one of the biggest barriers to working

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Speaker 2: from home a lot for most companies is that managers

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Speaker 2: ultimately don't truly trust their teams and they worry that

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Speaker 2: if people work from home, then they're at home but

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Speaker 2: they're not actually working. They're just binging on Netflix, which

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Speaker 2: is ridiculous. And it's like, if that's how you feel,

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Speaker 2: why did you hire these people in the first place.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, I feel like now it's almost like inadvertently

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Speaker 2: that employees have now earned the trust of them managers

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Speaker 2: because you know, the world of work hasn't fallen apart

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Speaker 2: because people have just been binging on Netflix, and I

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Speaker 2: feel like there's more of an openness to having people

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Speaker 2: work at home more often. Like I know that at Inventium,

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Speaker 2: people can work and still can work like from wherever

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Speaker 2: whenever they want work to their chronotypes, you know, in

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Speaker 2: terms of when they're naturally more alert and awake. But

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Speaker 2: we would always mandate that people come to the office

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Speaker 2: on Friday so that we do get that face to

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Speaker 2: face collaboration time. So that's definitely something that we're still

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Speaker 2: thinking about because certainly, like we're all really comfortable working

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Speaker 2: from home, but some people are more social than others.

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Speaker 2: So do we you know, even like outside of this

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Speaker 2: like one week sprint as a team or co work

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Speaker 2: together as a team concept, do we have one day

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Speaker 2: a week or one day a fortnite that is that

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Speaker 2: kind of forced collaboration in some way, whether we're all

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Speaker 2: sort of on zoom together working from our respective houses,

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Speaker 2: but we're connect it in some way. So we're thinking

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Speaker 2: about that as well. But but yeah, I want to know, like,

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Speaker 2: how how is the way you work change? Given that

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Speaker 2: you are a solo worker. But I imagine that you're probably

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Speaker 2: doing quite a bit of travel because I know you

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Speaker 2: do a lot of keynotes, speaking and workshops, like to like,

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Speaker 2: tell me, like, what are some of the strategies you've

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Speaker 2: now put in place that are helping with your new

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Speaker 2: way of working?

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Speaker 1: Sure? Yeah, So, so one of the things that's been

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Speaker 1: the you know, odd odd for me about this is

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Speaker 1: that I've been working from home a lot for many

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Speaker 1: years now. I've been I left my job gosh three

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Speaker 1: all over three years ago now, and so all that

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Speaker 1: time has been one hundred percent you know, working on

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Speaker 1: my own and you know, not going to an office

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Speaker 1: at least, as you said, a lot of traveling to

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Speaker 1: do to do keynotes, to teach workshops and boot camps

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Speaker 1: and work with companies, but but not you know, never

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Speaker 1: really going into an office. And but but even before that, actually,

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Speaker 1: so the five years before that, that's that's three years.

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Speaker 1: The five years before that, I was at Google Ventures,

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Speaker 1: and for a lot of that time I was I

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Speaker 1: had sort of shifted the way I worked to working

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Speaker 1: more and more and more at home, and then except

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Speaker 1: for design sprints and when I would go in and

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Speaker 1: work with you know, with a startup. In fact, even

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Speaker 1: a couple of years before that, when I was at Google,

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Speaker 1: I was doing more and more work from home. So

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Speaker 1: one of the things that's been interesting about this is

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Speaker 1: I'm very comfortable, although I constantly feel like I have to, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, when when things change, when something when a

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Speaker 1: wrench gets thrown in the works, and they just do

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Speaker 1: even you know, even pre pandemic, when you when you

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Speaker 1: work from home, like there are anything that happens in

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Speaker 1: your personal life, for your home life, your family life,

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Speaker 1: also effects your office life because that is that is

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Speaker 1: your office. And and part of the reason why I

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Speaker 1: value being at home so much is to be able

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Speaker 1: to attend to those things, Like I think it's an

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Speaker 1: important part of my life that I can attend to

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Speaker 1: those things in a disproportionate way and let them sort

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Speaker 1: of disrupt the other stuff, because that stuff is really

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Speaker 1: important to me, the family stuff, the real life stuff.

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Speaker 1: So I've but I had kind of gotten in a groove,

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Speaker 1: you know, I felt like, you know, make time kind

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Speaker 1: of represents that groove, like a lot of the techniques

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Speaker 1: and methods that I needed to be able to focus

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Speaker 1: at home and and there's this nice kind of balance

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Speaker 1: for me of time spent at home working on focused projects,

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Speaker 1: a lot of that is writing, and then to travel

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Speaker 1: and travels it's like a totally different world. I go

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Speaker 1: to another place and I'm there in person, and it's

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Speaker 1: really like, you know, extroverted. Jake gets a lot out

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Speaker 1: of that and in a dose, and then I get

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Speaker 1: to come back. So it's like I could throw the

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Speaker 1: switch all the way one way or the other. So

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Speaker 1: once the pandemic hit, once we got past my son

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Speaker 1: being ill and the biggest waves of anxiety, and I think,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I've talked to anyone who doesn't

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Speaker 1: have waves of anxiety and waves of you know, feeling

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Speaker 1: really bad about what's going on and worried about the

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Speaker 1: future and the uncertainty. But for me, those were worst

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Speaker 1: in the beginning, and they've they've gotten smaller and farther apart,

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Speaker 1: almost like a tsunami that passed, you know, and there's

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Speaker 1: still some there's still after shocks of it. But are

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Speaker 1: there after shocks from a tsunami? You know? It doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: You get the idea. So the situation now is like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: well I don't have any of my normal work, Like

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Speaker 1: that's all obviously gone. I'm not going there are no conferences,

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Speaker 1: there are no in person workshops, there's no none of that,

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Speaker 1: which means no travel and now for a long stretch.

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Speaker 1: And that's a bummer because I get a lot of

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Speaker 1: I get a lot of like energy and also like

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Speaker 1: just honestly, like validation of self worth. When you're working

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Speaker 1: one hundred percent by on your own, you have to

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Speaker 1: do a bunch to kind of prop up your sort

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Speaker 1: of belief that it matters and that you mattering.

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Speaker 2: How have you got about doing that? I haven't even

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Speaker 2: thought about that aspect of work and what like? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and what you like, I'm like you, it's like, I

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Speaker 2: don't remember the last time. I haven't traveled for three months.

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Speaker 2: This is insane, So how have you been doing that?

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Speaker 2: And like, you know, feeling your self worth bucket or

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Speaker 2: however we want to rever to that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. Maybe you know, maybe I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: more insecure than other people. This may not be something

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Speaker 1: everyone worries about, but I I mean, you know, The

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Speaker 1: short answer is, I don't know. I'm not sure I

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Speaker 1: have that totally figured out. That's a struggle right now,

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Speaker 1: like to feel like I'm sure I'm doing the right thing,

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Speaker 1: you know, with my that's always a struggle, but like,

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Speaker 1: really right now, it's it's hard. But one of the

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Speaker 1: things is one of the first things I did, I

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Speaker 1: guess was you talked about design spread and remote, you know,

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Speaker 1: doing design sprints over video, and you know it. It

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Speaker 1: became clear to me pretty quickly. A few people started

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Speaker 1: asking me, like, do you know anything about doing this?

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Speaker 1: We're switching over to doing it, And people have been

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Speaker 1: asking me about it for years since the book came out,

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Speaker 1: but I always said like, well, I'm not sure. I

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Speaker 1: haven't really done it. And someday somebody, I'm sure we'll

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Speaker 1: write it like a good guide on it, but for now,

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Speaker 1: here's kind of my hunch and it's really hard and

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00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:30,440
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. When the pandemic hit, I realized, man,

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Speaker 1: that people are gonna need it, and it doesn't matter

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Speaker 1: if I'm not ready to write it, Like there needs

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Speaker 1: to be one. So I together with John Zaratski, who

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Speaker 1: I know has been on the show, my co author

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Speaker 1: on sprint and make time. We worked with a friend

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Speaker 1: of his name, Jackie Colburn. We contacted like tons and

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Speaker 1: tons of people who had run remote design sprints, and

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Speaker 1: we put together this guide, you know, this sort of

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Speaker 1: like here's the best kind of like the Wirecutter if

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Speaker 1: you've ever looked at the Wirecutter for like their recommendation

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Speaker 1: on you know, gadgets and things. We put together like

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Speaker 1: our Wirecutter version of like here's like the best advice

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00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,320
Speaker 1: we can find on running remote sprints. And that was

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Speaker 1: a thing that has sustained a lot of like feeling

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Speaker 1: of you know, like there's some connection between what I'm

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Speaker 1: doing to people have I know, people have read that,

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Speaker 1: you know, they send me questions or like it give

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Speaker 1: me something to talk about that was sort of work

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00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,159
Speaker 1: related and connected to other humans. I occasionally do like

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Speaker 1: you know, like a Q and a like a sort

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Speaker 1: of some kind of joining like an online meetup or something,

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Speaker 1: and people ask questions about design sprints, and doing one

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Speaker 1: of those every couple weeks or so makes me feel

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Speaker 1: like that there's some world out there and I might

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Speaker 1: be a part of it, but I don't have it

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Speaker 1: totally figured out. And for this project of writing the

391
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,800
Speaker 1: fiction book. That's always an ongoing challenge, but it's kind

392
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Speaker 1: of I didn't realize how much I was bolstered by

393
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Speaker 1: doing that other stuff too, that design sprint, workshop stuff,

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Speaker 1: conference stuff that was kind of validating, and I don't

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Speaker 1: have that, and I guess I have to find it

396
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Speaker 1: in the ways I describe, or the other way of

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Speaker 1: finding it is in is in trying to really be

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Speaker 1: president and involved in some of the moments with my

399
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Speaker 1: family and saying, you know, reminding myself, hey, I'm doing

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Speaker 1: a good job of this. Now I need to do

401
00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:26,000
Speaker 1: a good job with this. This is going to be

402
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:27,840
Speaker 1: a precious time. I actually I'll look back at some

403
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Speaker 1: point and say, Wow, that time was crazy, but it

404
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,560
Speaker 1: was cool. It's over now and I can't go back

405
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,880
Speaker 1: to it, and I need to like get as much

406
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,680
Speaker 1: of that as I can, because when things come back

407
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Speaker 1: and I do have my sort of professional life validation,

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00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:48,240
Speaker 1: I might not have the opportunity to be a real

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Speaker 1: part of my family's life.

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Speaker 2: And the way I can now, I find that really

411
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Speaker 2: interesting in terms of like that's almost feels like a

412
00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:58,920
Speaker 2: novel idea, but it's so crazy that it feels like

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Speaker 2: a novel idea, or in terms of getting self worth

414
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Speaker 2: and validation from your family, Like, I completely relate to

415
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,880
Speaker 2: what you're saying in terms of it sounds like one

416
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:13,520
Speaker 2: of the one of the most effective ways of building

417
00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:17,520
Speaker 2: that self worth is putting out into the public domain

418
00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 2: new ideas that people will find valuable, or any ideas,

419
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,880
Speaker 2: even old ideas that people might find valuable, and kind

420
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,919
Speaker 2: of getting that feedback from people who are consuming that content.

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Speaker 2: And I can totally relate to that. In my own life.

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00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,119
Speaker 2: I've been doing quite a few virtual keynotes, and I

423
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,880
Speaker 2: get such a buzz even though I'm really only communicating

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Speaker 2: with these people via a chat box because I can't

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00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 2: even see them, but I just get this real buzz,

426
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,920
Speaker 2: you know, particularly from questions that people ask, and then

427
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,760
Speaker 2: even just people writing in the chat box thank you.

428
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,560
Speaker 2: That was great, Like you know, easy for them to write.

429
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:58,439
Speaker 2: Maybe it's tokenistic, but it feels so good. It does, Yeah,

430
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,040
Speaker 2: it really does. But then it's like, you know, as

431
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 2: a parent, it's like, well, yeah, there's no I mean

432
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 2: that's one of the things of being a parent, like

433
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 2: there's no real clear sense of progress because it's all

434
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,119
Speaker 2: so slow and it can be very monotonous and you

435
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:14,920
Speaker 2: just don't even realize. But then you know, for example,

436
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,919
Speaker 2: like Frankie, my daughter came home with a note in

437
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,960
Speaker 2: her diary like a couple of days ago, and the

438
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,639
Speaker 2: teacher had written, Frankie was really focused at school today,

439
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 2: and I just I felt, you know, I think that

440
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,120
Speaker 2: contributed to my self worth. I mean, you know, who

441
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:31,639
Speaker 2: knows what you've done to contributed?

442
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:37,920
Speaker 1: Totally yeah, totally yeah. And boy, I cannot emphasize enough

443
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 1: to need listeners of yours who might be if you're

444
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,680
Speaker 1: in a situation where you are now working from home

445
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 1: for the first time and you have kids, and you're

446
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 1: wondering what a future world might look like where you're

447
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 1: working from home more because you're maybe your your line

448
00:23:56,040 --> 00:24:00,199
Speaker 1: of work might might involve that more. This is not

449
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 1: what it's usually like. Is It is way different if

450
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,120
Speaker 1: you have not just if you have kids home because

451
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 1: obviously sometimes it's summertime whatever, like the kids are home,

452
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 1: but for them to be in school and for you

453
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 1: to be trying to manage their school, be like their teacher,

454
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 1: and like taking care of everything and making meals and

455
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,439
Speaker 1: cleaning up from the meals and cleaning up for the

456
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:24,399
Speaker 1: house and like dealing with the dog and like my

457
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 1: dog has a cone on his head right now because

458
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:27,239
Speaker 1: he got like a cut on his foot. I mean,

459
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,639
Speaker 1: it's just like this is not the normal deal of

460
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,399
Speaker 1: working from home. It's a it's a it's a crazy

461
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 1: amped up version of it, because there is always there

462
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 1: is that element of like you're not insulated from from

463
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 1: the you know, these family life has commitments that you

464
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 1: can't avoid and you sometimes can't put off. And when

465
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 1: you go to an office, that creates a force field

466
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 1: that protects you more or less for a few hours

467
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,160
Speaker 1: each day from it. The funny thing is the other

468
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 1: there's all these other people in the force field with us.

469
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,400
Speaker 1: You distract us, right and like other other weird commitments

470
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: that that come play, and when you work from home

471
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 1: you have to create like a small force field. But

472
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 1: that this like in this time with the pandemic, if

473
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 1: you have kids from home and there in school especially,

474
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 1: it's not you're training at high altitude right now for

475
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:15,359
Speaker 1: any kind of working from home you might do in

476
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:15,880
Speaker 1: the future.

477
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 2: Is so true. That is so true. Like there's kind

478
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 2: of this lack of control that you normally have over

479
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,919
Speaker 2: the homeworking environment, whereas like, at work, it's a fairly

480
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,360
Speaker 2: controlled environment, you know, despite the fact that you've got

481
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 2: coworkers that want to interrupt you all the time. But yeah,

482
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 2: it is. It is interesting. It's funny. I was just

483
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 2: before this interview, I was on Google Hangouts to one

484
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,160
Speaker 2: of my teammates and we're trying to sort of work

485
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 2: through this framework that we're developing, and she had construction

486
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 2: noise going She's always got construction noise going on in

487
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 2: the background. And she's just moved house and she's still

488
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 2: got construction noise going on. It's like all the builders

489
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:54,359
Speaker 2: have moved, they're attracted to the shah. But she's like,

490
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 2: you know, that's one of the things that I'm realizing

491
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,199
Speaker 2: about working from home. It's like there's this lack of

492
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 2: control in some ways of the vironment, whereas in the

493
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 2: office there's you know, it's a fairly controlled, predictable kind

494
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,400
Speaker 2: of environment. But yeah, right now, it's just, oh, it's crazy.

495
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 2: It's something I've been curious about. And look, I'm always

496
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,880
Speaker 2: curious about this. For people that write business books, slash

497
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 2: advice books. Don't like calling your books advice books, because

498
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 2: I feel like that doesn't quite do them justice. But yeah.

499
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 2: But what I'm always curious about, and you know, I

500
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 2: found this with my own books, is it's like, you know,

501
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 2: as soon as you as soon as it's kind of

502
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 2: like gone to print, and then it's out into the world,

503
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:33,439
Speaker 2: and then you're you know, kind of talking about all

504
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 2: these concepts that suddenly feel like, oh, that just feels

505
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 2: like something I developed so long ago. But I want

506
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 2: to talk all about all the new stuff that's not

507
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 2: in the book. I'm curious, like, since writing and you know,

508
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,199
Speaker 2: having Make Time be born into the world about a

509
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,360
Speaker 2: year and a half ago, what are some new experiments

510
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 2: that you've been trying, whether they be new tactics or

511
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 2: strategies or rituals or even you know, new pieces of

512
00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:00,680
Speaker 2: software apps that are helping you with your work and focus.

513
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 1: Well, the answer to this, the simple answer to this

514
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 1: is the same as for the design sprint. For Make Time.

515
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 1: It's the same as for design the design sprint, and

516
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 1: it's it's sort of disappointing. Maybe it's that they're there

517
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 1: actually is not that much new, And I think that's

518
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 1: good because I think it means that we wrote those

519
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 1: books at the point when we had we had figured

520
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 1: out the system that's pretty much as far as we

521
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 1: can tell, the right system. But the you know, it's

522
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,679
Speaker 1: disappointing in terms of like there's not any real exciting like,

523
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 1: oh my god, wait until you hear it's it's not

524
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 1: that it's not revolutionized, since then the book is still

525
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 1: And so the truth is that I spend most of

526
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 1: my effort with when it comes to sort of make

527
00:27:57,920 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 1: time or I mean, you know, I don't think about

528
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 1: it as make time. I just think about it as like,

529
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 1: oh my god, I need to get you know, I

530
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 1: need to have a day to day, have a good day.

531
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: I spend most of my effort trying to just keep

532
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 1: implementing those approaches because it's hard actually, and you know,

533
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 1: I suppose people are different. But my experience with this

534
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 1: is that I can establish some habits, I can get

535
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: some things going, and then things change in my life

536
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 1: or I change or what I'm trying to accomplish changes

537
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 1: and or have a weird, a weird stretch of days things,

538
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 1: you know, somebody gets ill or whatever, and then things

539
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 1: get thrown out of whack, and then I have to

540
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 1: redo it. I have to rebuild that system. And so

541
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 1: a lot of what's happened since the book came out

542
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: for me has been you know, as we had a

543
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: lot of life change. We moved, you know, we thought

544
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 1: about moving, and then we moved and that was a

545
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,239
Speaker 1: big deal. And then yeah, then the pandemic, and like

546
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: it's each time, it's like, okay, well, how do I

547
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 1: I know that if I have then make time. We

548
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 1: have this notion of like you choose a highlight for

549
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 1: each day and then you you're going to get into

550
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 1: laser mode to sort of do your highlight techniques for

551
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 1: laser mode. And then it's important to energize, like make

552
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: sure that I have good energy for my body and

553
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 1: my mind and like do things to kind of take

554
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: care of the animal that that your brain is in.

555
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 1: And and then and I need to like also kind

556
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 1: of reflect on it and not be too hard on

557
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 1: myself when things don't go well, and also look for ways,

558
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: you know, to try new experiments. It's kind of been

559
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 1: just a process of like just continuing to do that.

560
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 1: And part of what was actually really hard for me

561
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: as as an author was finishing the book and feeling

562
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 1: like Okay, I definitely like captured, we captured that system.

563
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: I got my system down and then to have this

564
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: sort of year and a half where I felt like

565
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 1: I was not just crushing it with the system, but

566
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: I was constantly still trying to figure it out, you know.

567
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 1: And the book sort of gave me the vocabulary to

568
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 1: know what my problems were and what I was trying

569
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: to do and which experiments to run. But it isn't

570
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: It isn't either this well oiled machine. And there also

571
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: haven't been like millions of new tactics. Okay, that said,

572
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 1: I'll actually properly answer your question, which is that the

573
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 1: while the highlight is, it's the most important part of

574
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: Make Time. It's the it's the one thing that I

575
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: tell people to try first, and it's gonna it's the

576
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: thing that people consistently tell us made the biggest difference

577
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 1: for them.

578
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 2: And can you just like sort of briefly define what

579
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 2: a highlight is for those that haven't read Make Time totally?

580
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, And I'm god, I'm like the worst author

581
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 1: interview because I've I never remember to sell you know

582
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 1: what the thing is, that's what you're here. Yeah, you're

583
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: just gonna save me. So the idea what the highlight

584
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 1: is that each day? But you know, in the morning

585
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 1: or the night before, I try to think about the

586
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 1: following day and say, Okay, if I could fast forward

587
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 1: to the end of the day, if I imagine that

588
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 1: in my mind, I imagine it's the end of the

589
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: day and I'm looking back on the day, what do

590
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 1: I want to say? Was what do I hope will

591
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 1: be the highlight of my day? You know? And I

592
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 1: have this habit of at the end of each day

593
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: writing down in a notebook, like a few things that

594
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 1: I'm grateful for. You know. It's real simple, like not

595
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 1: like a big journal issue, just real simple, like here's

596
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 1: a few things, and I try to imagine when the

597
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: day starts, like what could those things be today? What's

598
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: the one If there's like one thing that I just

599
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 1: want to be sure makes that list I want to

600
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: I try to write it down, Okay, what's the highlight

601
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 1: for today? And then that highlight I want to Then

602
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 1: I look at my calendar and say when is that

603
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 1: going to happen? And then I just am thinking all

604
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 1: day around like kales make sure that I have the

605
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 1: energy I need for that thing that when that time

606
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: comes to do it. Sometimes it might be a work project,

607
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: it might be I need to write like some number

608
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: of words for this project, or maybe it's going to

609
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 1: be you know, I'm going to be doing a project

610
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: with my son today, or just having my dinner with

611
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 1: my family whatever like some some thing, some event. I

612
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: want to make sure I'm really focused during that time

613
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: so I don't have distractions, and I'll shut those off

614
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 1: and I'll you know, try to make sure that I

615
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 1: haven't burned myself out doing other things. First. It's just

616
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 1: basically a practice of defining and setting an intention around

617
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: what's important each day, and then really protecting that time

618
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 1: in the calendar and trying to lift myself up as

619
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: much as I can so that I'm ready to do

620
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 1: that highlight, and then looking back and saying like was

621
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 1: that the highlight and and was I able to do it?

622
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: And how did it go? And if you know, were

623
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 1: there things that worked well that I want to continue

624
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: doing and were there things that that didn't work so well?

625
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 1: And in the book, we have eighty seven different tactics

626
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 1: for you know, choosing the right highlight, breaking highlights down,

627
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 1: you know, putting them into a chain, figuring out what

628
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: that thing should be, and then different tactics to help

629
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: create barriers to distraction so you can really be in

630
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 1: the moment doing that thing. And different tactics for just

631
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 1: energizing the body. And so when you talk about like

632
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 1: new tactics, I'm thinking about, how did we come up

633
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 1: with very many new ones? And you know, I came

634
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 1: up with I found that it was sometimes helpful to

635
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: do two to define one that was work related and

636
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 1: one that was related to my family. Especially during the

637
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 1: pandemic time. I found that was helpful because that world

638
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 1: got so jumbled up. And I've found that there's this

639
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: app called Cactus that's new and sort of some friends

640
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: of mine we're working on it, and it's and it's

641
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 1: kind of a nice addition to headspace, which is one

642
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 1: I love a lot and talk about in the book.

643
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 1: But then a nice addition or compliment to a sort

644
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: of meditation practice which I find super hard to do

645
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 1: but always find benefit from when I do it, that

646
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 1: this Cactus app you don't actually meditate, it's just sort

647
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 1: of like kind of gives you a kind of a

648
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,760
Speaker 1: moment to reflect just by sort of reading some little prompts,

649
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 1: and so it's like mindfulness without the meditation, and it's

650
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: a nice it's like something I can always fit in.

651
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 2: But the sound of that, I'm going to download that

652
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 2: after this interol.

653
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 1: Yes, it's definitely cool. But you know, other than that,

654
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 1: it's not a huge number of things. It's more actually

655
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,280
Speaker 1: just trying to do the things that I know work

656
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: and at least in the spirit of make time, the

657
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 1: spirit of the book and the way we approach it.

658
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 1: I'm not expecting myself to be perfect. It's actually meant

659
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 1: to be robust and work even when the habits kind

660
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 1: of fall apart and life changes and you have to shift.

661
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, that's.

662
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 2: It's interesting, like just what you're saying in terms of

663
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,359
Speaker 2: like people imagine that you're totally crushing it from a

664
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 2: productivity point of view. But I got the same struggles

665
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 2: as the rest of us. And look, I feel exactly

666
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 2: the same. Like I spent so much of you know,

667
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 2: my working life writing about or speaking about, you know,

668
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 2: how to stay focused in this you know, digitally distracted world.

669
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 2: But you know, there are so many days where I'm like,

670
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, can I just get out of my inbox? Please?

671
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 2: And yeah, so like I want to know what are

672
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 2: your biggest struggles and then like, how are you going

673
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 2: about overcoming them. I'm super curious to know.

674
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 1: Sure, Yeah, one of the one of the biggest struggles

675
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 1: is email, for sure. And you know they're if I

676
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 1: you know, if I try to like come up with

677
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 1: the biggest struggles of the moment for me in this

678
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:50,320
Speaker 1: in this moment of pandemic time, they're they're like exaggerated

679
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 1: versions of the struggles that I have at all times.

680
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 2: There.

681
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 1: They are the struggles of like focus. I am not

682
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 1: naturally like focused, per and I have to I have

683
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:06,320
Speaker 1: to I have to have tools and methods and barriers

684
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 1: to help me create that that focus. That's been even

685
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 1: more true. I've been even more distracted and and you know,

686
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 1: emotionally bouncing around during this time. The that challenge is

687
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 1: is exaggerated the challenges of you know kind of like

688
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 1: like like we talked about earlier, just having the sort

689
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 1: of confidence or that sort of sense of like self

690
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:36,399
Speaker 1: worth or like this is the right thing to do.

691
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 1: They can really put the wind in your sales when

692
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 1: you have it. That's that's always a challenge in it

693
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: more so now. But email it's a funny one, right,

694
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 1: Like it's very you know, tactical and like simple. Those

695
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: other ones are like almost philosophical and email just feels

696
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 1: like awesome. But email is the for for many of us.

697
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 1: Certainly for me, it's like it is the place where

698
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 1: a lot of like distraction and nebulousness lives, and like

699
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 1: it's the heart of this this problem where I, you know,

700
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:15,399
Speaker 1: if if you don't have clarity about what you what's

701
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 1: most important to you, if I don't have clarity about

702
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,720
Speaker 1: what's most important to me, and I don't have clarity

703
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: of purpose about like what the thing is I should

704
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:24,279
Speaker 1: do and I'm certain I should do it and I'm

705
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 1: going to do it, Like if I don't have just

706
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 1: blistering clarity about what that thing is, then I go

707
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 1: into my email inbox and like there's a million things

708
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,239
Speaker 1: in there for me to do. They all come with

709
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: like a little like micro version of what you describe

710
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: when somebody says like thank you for the you know,

711
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 1: the talk or whatever, and that like is so rewarding.

712
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,399
Speaker 1: Like every email has like a little piece of that,

713
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 1: Like somebody asked me something and I can like do

714
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 1: something for them in return, and like email just it

715
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 1: creates this like really these really like small rewards and

716
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 1: these really small feelings of productivity that in the big picture,

717
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 1: they come at this cost of like the big clarity

718
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: about the bigger thing that I might be trying to do.

719
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:10,959
Speaker 1: Like it's it's very rare that the most important work

720
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 1: I do happens in email. Yet every day email is

721
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 1: the easiest on ramp to a feeling of productivity. And

722
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 1: yet it's like it's fools gold, Like I get in

723
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 1: there and if I can spend all day every day

724
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 1: in email, and the weird thing about the pandemic is

725
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 1: I'm getting way fewer emails than usual because, like I said,

726
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 1: my work is really like totally you know, turned upside

727
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 1: down because of events and in person stuff is canceled

728
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,800
Speaker 1: or postponed, so my email volume is way way lower.

729
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 1: And yet even still I could spend I could spend

730
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 1: a full day every day in email, and I could,

731
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 1: you know. It's it's actually like like when I have

732
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 1: less clarity about is this the right thing to do,

733
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 1: or less confidence that I'm going to have thirty or

734
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 1: sixty or one hundred and twenty minutes of uninterrupted time

735
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 1: because like my son can't get on zoom or like whatever,

736
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 1: you know, first class Like with with that like that

737
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 1: feeling of instability that comes with the present moment. Even

738
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:21,720
Speaker 1: though there's less email, it's like more of a challenge

739
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 1: to not succumb to it and just to be totally like,

740
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,319
Speaker 1: you know, honest. Even though it doesn't it does make

741
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 1: me look good as like this sort of you know,

742
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:39,360
Speaker 1: a marketer of a of a great time management tool.

743
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 1: I've had to hire someone to help me with with

744
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 1: the email stuff and to and to really kind of

745
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 1: force me to stay out of it and stay out

746
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 1: of my email and focus on the other projects that

747
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 1: I want to do.

748
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 2: So how do you use that person then? Like what's

749
00:39:58,719 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 2: their job? So to speak?

750
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:02,800
Speaker 1: So I thought about this for a long time because

751
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 1: you know, I do have a weird situation with email.

752
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 1: John Saratski, my co author, has a good way of

753
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:13,839
Speaker 1: putting this because we both, you know, we both worked

754
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 1: in companies for a long time and then we both

755
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,319
Speaker 1: kind of quit our jobs sort of around the same

756
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 1: time and went into this thing where where each of

757
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,439
Speaker 1: us is like working on our own. So, as John

758
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,280
Speaker 1: puts it, like if you if you work in a company,

759
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 1: like some number of the emails in your inbox, you

760
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 1: don't really have to do anything about them because they're

761
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,840
Speaker 1: not to you, like they're to a group of people

762
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 1: and if you don't comment on them, somebody else will

763
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 1: will deal with it or somebody you know, or it's

764
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:45,360
Speaker 1: just kind of an fyi. But when you are self employed,

765
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,800
Speaker 1: like a lot of the emails, a much higher percentage

766
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 1: of emails in your inbox are like they're meant for you,

767
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 1: and you're sort of supposed to do something with them.

768
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 1: And being in this situation like the with these these books,

769
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 1: like it's great to be an author, and if people

770
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 1: read your books, it's like it's so cool, it's what

771
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 1: you want and stuff. But I also really want if

772
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,439
Speaker 1: anybody emails me it has questions or comments about things,

773
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 1: I really want to talk to them about it, you know,

774
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 1: like that's so cool. And yet if I talk to

775
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: them all the time, I won't do anything else, and

776
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 1: there won't be any more books, you know, and there

777
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 1: won't be any more there won't be any remote Sprint Guide,

778
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 1: there won't be that other stuff won't happen. And so

779
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 1: to that required us, like like like make Time, we

780
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:32,399
Speaker 1: sort of wrote with it was we started writing while

781
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 1: we were still working at Google Ventures. It's it's written

782
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,319
Speaker 1: with this context of like here's how you how we

783
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 1: did this like in our jobs at Google or in

784
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 1: our you know, our jobs and these big companies, and

785
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 1: we kind of have to like refigure out how it

786
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:48,279
Speaker 1: works when you're a one person business. And so I

787
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 1: thought about for a long as as I started to

788
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:56,279
Speaker 1: realize that the business side of you know, Jake Napp, Inc.

789
00:41:56,360 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 1: Basically was was going to overwhelm my ability to do

790
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:03,840
Speaker 1: these sort of focused more maybe creative projects or just

791
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 1: any kind of focused work because of the volume of

792
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:09,359
Speaker 1: things that needed to happen. I thought, well, I need

793
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 1: to hire like a you know, an assistant of some kind.

794
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 1: And I started to talk to people who had crossed

795
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 1: that threshold of when they decided I need to hire

796
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:20,320
Speaker 1: an assistant and how they decided to do that, And

797
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:22,359
Speaker 1: it took me a long time to figure out that

798
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 1: what worked for them probably wouldn't work for me, because

799
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: for people who cross that threshold running a business with

800
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 1: other people, the needs that they have are different from

801
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:35,839
Speaker 1: my needs. So it's the main thing I need help with,

802
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:39,279
Speaker 1: is I need help with kind of a system for

803
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 1: dealing with a community of people who who I want

804
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:44,879
Speaker 1: to interact with and I want to you know, talk

805
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,320
Speaker 1: to and stuff, but I can't let it become everything

806
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 1: I do. And I need a system for dealing with

807
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 1: the things that come to me that are like, you know,

808
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 1: business or you know, people might want me to come

809
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 1: do a keynote or teach a boot camp or something.

810
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:02,720
Speaker 1: And I need a system for I need coaching, honestly,

811
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,839
Speaker 1: for the creative work. And it's hard to admit when

812
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,400
Speaker 1: you have written a book is supposed to be like

813
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 1: an advice book about you know, attention management and time.

814
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 1: It's hard to admit that you need help with that

815
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 1: very thing. But it's in a new arena for me

816
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 1: and I and I when I finally admitted it, and

817
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 1: I went to a friend who I had worked with

818
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:28,720
Speaker 1: like Google, and she's she's brilliant. It's great coach, and

819
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:31,439
Speaker 1: she's able in just a few hours. You know, she's

820
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 1: not sort of a full time assistant. She used to

821
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 1: be a few hours of kind of coaching and looking

822
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 1: at my inbox and saying, look, here's how you need

823
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 1: to organize it, and saying like if people you know

824
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 1: in your email, like you need to put an out

825
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 1: of office responder, and I need here's what needs to say.

826
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 1: And that's been huge. That's been that's been really huge,

827
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 1: and in my sort of peculiar situation, has been exactly

828
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:53,880
Speaker 1: what I needed.

829
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 2: And has that helped you stay out of your inbox

830
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 2: more like almost to help resist that temptation?

831
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:06,720
Speaker 1: It does, Yeah, it's it was a really big deal

832
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: to me. I got an email, so I was like

833
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 1: emailing a friend who's a writer, and I got he

834
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 1: had this out of office you know auto responder that

835
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 1: said I'm out of email until May. Like this was

836
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 1: in maybe February or something. I got this email from

837
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:29,280
Speaker 1: him and I was like, wow, what that's so cool

838
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 1: and it said it said I'm off, I'm out of

839
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 1: email till May, working on a writing project and if

840
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:41,360
Speaker 1: it's urgent, text me or send an email to and

841
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 1: he has an assistant and he works with email the

842
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 1: assistant And I emailed it to my friend who's coaching me,

843
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:49,279
Speaker 1: and I was like, what do you think we should do?

844
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:51,840
Speaker 1: What do you think about this? And she's like, you

845
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:53,239
Speaker 1: need to do that, like you're not going to I

846
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 1: wanted to write a draft by may actually have my book,

847
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:57,280
Speaker 1: and she's like, that's what you need to do, otherwise

848
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 1: it's not going to happen. And and I was like, well,

849
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 1: maybe I could do it for you know, a week

850
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 1: or two weeks. I could say I was offline. She's like,

851
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 1: come on, like you need to do the whole thing.

852
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 1: So that was really hard to take that step to

853
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:13,320
Speaker 1: write that auto responder, you know, and this is probably

854
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 1: a tactic I should add to the new tactics. To

855
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 1: write that auto responder was tough, but once I did it,

856
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 1: it was very freeing to like the first few hours,

857
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 1: you know, to know that emails were coming in and

858
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 1: people were getting that that bounced back to him. I

859
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:29,759
Speaker 1: was like, oh God, what are people going to say?

860
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:31,839
Speaker 1: But people were like fine with it, like nobody. I mean,

861
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:34,279
Speaker 1: this is a common challenge that we see again and

862
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:37,959
Speaker 1: again as you talk to people about make time, which

863
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 1: is like we had. We all have this expectation that

864
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:44,759
Speaker 1: other people are like much more keenly interested in our

865
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 1: response time and much more judgmental of us than they

866
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 1: actually are. And if we the really that judgment comes

867
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 1: from inside ourselves, Like I mean, for me, that's one

868
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 1: hundred percent true. The expectation is actually generated by me

869
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:00,840
Speaker 1: that I'm this kind of person who gets back to

870
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 1: you and out of respect for you, I want to

871
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 1: get back. Yeah, right, and like there's a there's god

872
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:12,759
Speaker 1: getting past that and realizing where the actual boundary was,

873
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:17,359
Speaker 1: what's the actual response time that different things need. And

874
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:20,720
Speaker 1: granted it helps a ton to have a friend looking

875
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 1: in on your inbox, but that's something I think. I

876
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 1: don't know what the right arrangement is, but I have

877
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 1: this notion that a lot of people, even without you know,

878
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 1: an assistant, a lot of people could benefit from this

879
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:34,359
Speaker 1: notion of a friend who will look in on your

880
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 1: inbox or a friend who can be the designated contact person,

881
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 1: if so that you can have an out of office

882
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 1: thing that says, if it's urgent, contact this person and

883
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 1: they'll know how to get in touch with me. And

884
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:47,359
Speaker 1: if that, you know, maybe you can maybe you can

885
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 1: have like an agreement that you do it for each

886
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 1: other or something. But that's really powerful, like to give

887
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 1: people a way to escalate if they need it and

888
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:57,359
Speaker 1: then say, normally my rule is going to be And

889
00:46:57,400 --> 00:46:59,239
Speaker 1: for me, it's been like I'm not going to check,

890
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 1: I'm going to there's a category of email. I'm not

891
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 1: going to check except for every like few weeks, like

892
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:05,879
Speaker 1: it might be two to three weeks before I look

893
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 1: at those, and there's one category I'm going to check

894
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 1: every day. If it's like from certain people who I

895
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 1: know have virgin emails, I have like you know, like

896
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 1: two VIP sort of people. And then there's going to

897
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 1: be one kind that I check once a week and

898
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:20,799
Speaker 1: deal with like business kinds of emails, and other than that,

899
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:24,320
Speaker 1: I have to promise myself I'm not on email. And

900
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: it's still hard, but that makes it doable, and that, man,

901
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 1: I'm telling you, amntha, that unlocks for me, like the

902
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 1: ability to get in to do something that's really hard,

903
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 1: and like the sci fi writing fiction, there's no I'm

904
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 1: you know, nobody's probably ever going to read this book.

905
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's any good. But it's fun

906
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 1: to do because it's so hard and it's also awful

907
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 1: to do. It's also like miserable at the time, but

908
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:51,400
Speaker 1: I am doing it because it's so hard and it

909
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:53,919
Speaker 1: I can't I could not have a chance of doing

910
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: that hard thing if I couldn't create that that boundary.

911
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:02,239
Speaker 1: And because it's so hard to maintain on this one,

912
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 1: the confidence that the work matters. I've needed that extra boost,

913
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:13,240
Speaker 1: you know, Whereas when writing like sprint or make time.

914
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 1: There was more of a signal that people are people

915
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:18,239
Speaker 1: would want this, you know. The publisher said that, well,

916
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 1: we'll publish the book. When you're writing fiction, it's different

917
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 1: and I've needed more to get through it.

918
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:25,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I just want to I want to read

919
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,319
Speaker 2: out your auto responder because I've just found it here

920
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 2: in front of me, and it says HI, between shelter

921
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:34,320
Speaker 2: in place with the kids at home and stealing heads

922
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 2: down time for a writing project, I'm slow as heck

923
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 2: on email right now. If you need something of any

924
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 2: kind of timeline, please email you're assistant or text me.

925
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:47,759
Speaker 2: So it's really simple and to the point, and I

926
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,880
Speaker 2: love that. I love your thoughts on email. I recently

927
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:54,440
Speaker 2: had Laura may Martin from Google. I'm not sure if

928
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:58,760
Speaker 2: you worked with her who she's like the executive productivity

929
00:48:58,800 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 2: advisor at Google.

930
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:01,960
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I have to listen to that episode.

931
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:04,759
Speaker 2: I'll send it to you after this. But she has

932
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,960
Speaker 2: some great ways of thinking about emails. So I love that.

933
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:09,880
Speaker 2: And now I'm conscious of time. I have to let

934
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 2: you go, Jake. I could twelve four hours, but you

935
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:14,880
Speaker 2: need to go have dinner with your family. But my

936
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 2: final question is for people that have not come across

937
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:22,239
Speaker 2: your work and want to consume more of Jake, how

938
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 2: can they do that? And also where can people access

939
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 2: the remote sprint Guide as well?

940
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 1: Sure? Yeah, the remote sprint Guide you can find at

941
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 1: the sprint book dot com slash remote maybe if you

942
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 1: search for remote sprint Guide you'll find it, but the

943
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 1: sprintbook dot com you can find it on there. And yeah,

944
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:45,280
Speaker 1: if you are if you did not hear enough aimless

945
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:49,880
Speaker 1: rambling today, I have a podcast called Jake and Jonathan

946
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:53,440
Speaker 1: and it's with my friend Jonathan. Different John than I

947
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 1: was talking about earlier today, not my co author. This

948
00:49:55,719 --> 00:50:01,399
Speaker 1: is my friend who lives in Berlin and an agency there,

949
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 1: and we talk about we kind of talk about design,

950
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 1: business and products, but we mostly are just wasting time

951
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 1: talking about books and video games and telling jokes and

952
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:19,400
Speaker 1: and I have a I guess you can go to

953
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 1: Jake Nap dot com and find I have a newsletter

954
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:23,840
Speaker 1: or if you have any you know, sort of questions

955
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:27,920
Speaker 1: that you want to go on my uh my sort

956
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 1: of abandoned crypt of an email inbox, you can send

957
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 1: them fruit there.

958
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:36,320
Speaker 2: Oh that's awesome. And look, I'm a huge fan of

959
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 2: your podcast, so definitely listeners of this show listen to that.

960
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 2: I'll link to all these in the show notes. And

961
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:44,919
Speaker 2: if you haven't read Make Time or Spreen. I mean,

962
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 2: there are two of my favorite books. I just think that,

963
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:49,439
Speaker 2: you know, this is so much great stuff in both

964
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:52,840
Speaker 2: of them. So Jake, so good to reconnect. It's just

965
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 2: been so fun chatting with you again. So thank you

966
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:55,879
Speaker 2: so much for your time.

967
00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:58,440
Speaker 1: Oh what a pleasure, Mantha, thank you for having me on.

968
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:03,239
Speaker 2: Hello there. That is it for today's show. If you

969
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 2: found it useful, why not share it with someone else

970
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:08,879
Speaker 2: who you think would find it useful. And if you're

971
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:11,439
Speaker 2: enjoying how I work, I would love it if you'd

972
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:13,239
Speaker 2: take a few seconds out of your day to leave

973
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:16,360
Speaker 2: a review in Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening to

974
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 2: this from or on. It's super awesome reading all the

975
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 2: feedback from listeners. I know that the show's had several

976
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 2: hundred reviews now, which is just awesome and personally very satisfying.

977
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:35,239
Speaker 2: So thank you if you've left a review, and thank

978
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 2: you if you plan to leave one today. So that's

979
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 2: it for today's show, and I will see you next time.