Speaker 1: Ordinarily speaking, I was doing some extraordinary things, but I
Speaker 1: felt incredibly ordinary.
Speaker 2: Takes time.
Speaker 3: Hello and welcome to this episode of ordinarily Speaking. I'm
Speaker 3: narrowly meadows. My guest this episode is cricketer Ashton Ager.
Speaker 3: Ashton is known for his big, broad smile, the kid
Speaker 3: that made ninety eight on debout batting at number eleven
Speaker 3: in the Ashes, he was only nineteen. Earlier this year,
Speaker 3: he was named Australia's Men's T twenty International Player of
Speaker 3: the Year. But behind the success, Ashton is a man
Speaker 3: who has dealt with mental health issues and what he
Speaker 3: describes as chronic This is the first time Ashton has
Speaker 3: spoken about the full extent of his struggles. As he speaks,
Speaker 3: he relives moments physically shadow batting on his couch or
Speaker 3: closing his eyes to recall his feelings more accurately. Ash
Speaker 3: is a deep thinker, and in this episode he reveals
Speaker 3: just how bad those thoughts got in his darkest days.
Speaker 3: If this episode is triggering for you, please ask for help.
Speaker 3: Lifeline and Beyond Blue are just a couple of places
Speaker 3: you can go As you listen to this chat, try
Speaker 3: to keep an open mind, because, as Ashton admits, himself.
Speaker 3: He's a little fearful of how it will be received.
Speaker 3: We caught up in his house in Perth. I hope
Speaker 3: you enjoy the chat well, Ash, Thanks so much for
Speaker 3: spending some time with me. I want to go back
Speaker 3: first to your incredible debout playing test cricket for Australia
Speaker 3: back in twenty thirteen, because it's one of those stories
Speaker 3: that's kind of gone down in folklore in Australian cricket.
Speaker 3: You weren't even supposed to be a part of that tour,
Speaker 3: I believe. Give me a bit of background about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a hell of a story. It's super wild
Speaker 1: ride for me. The background is I was picked on
Speaker 1: an Australia a tour. You know, after playing maybe five
Speaker 1: Shield games in the back half of my first season
Speaker 1: for WA in the twenty twelve thirteen season, went on
Speaker 1: that a tour. You know, played the tour, did reasonably well,
Speaker 1: and had played well for WA before that. All of
Speaker 1: a sudden, on the last night before I was about
Speaker 1: to leave, I remember being on the phone to Maddie
Speaker 1: and we were all excited because I was coming home
Speaker 1: and everything was looking really good. Get a call from
Speaker 1: John in Verity and I was like, why's Invers calling me?
Speaker 1: Like this is strange, and he goes mate. In his voice,
Speaker 1: I think anyone that knows Invers, he's got this wonderful
Speaker 1: speaking voice is very expressive, and it was a really
Speaker 1: cool phone call. Yeah, Ashton, you're staying And it kind
Speaker 1: of paus through a bit and I was like, what
Speaker 1: do you mean. We're keeping you on for the first
Speaker 1: couple of ASHES tests And I was like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: that's crazy, and he goes, well, there's no guarantees that
Speaker 1: you'll play or anything like that. It's probably a bit
Speaker 1: more for development and to have you around the group.
Speaker 1: But you're staying on. And there's a couple others in
Speaker 1: the same boat. I think one of them was Steve Smith.
Speaker 3: Actually not bad Company.
Speaker 1: Yeah, not bad company at all. So that was a
Speaker 1: massive surprise at the start. So you're nineteen, yeah, nineteen
Speaker 1: nineteen and just loving it like it was a really
Speaker 1: fun environment to be around.
Speaker 3: You've got a smile on your face, just yeah, it's
Speaker 3: an exciting time.
Speaker 1: And then well, I guess it all seemed to happen
Speaker 1: from there. We go out one night, the whole team.
Speaker 1: We're in Wooster and we have a tour game coming
Speaker 1: up there in a couple of days. I should probably
Speaker 1: say a few more days. Maybe we shouldn't have been
Speaker 1: out so close to the game.
Speaker 3: But was eight years ago, Yeah, a long time ago.
Speaker 1: It's okay, But importantly it was everyone and we're out
Speaker 1: at one bar and Michael Clark came and sat down
Speaker 1: next to me. He goes, you ready to go, youngster,
Speaker 1: and I kind of said to him, yeah, like let's go.
Speaker 1: Let's go to the next place. I thought he meant
Speaker 1: like the next bar wherever we were going. It's like, yeah, sure,
Speaker 1: it's Michael Clark. I'll say yes, mate, and he goes, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: for next week. And I knew that next week for
Speaker 1: the end of the next week was the first Test,
Speaker 1: and that hit me like a ton of bricks. It
Speaker 1: felt like time had slowed down in that moment, when
Speaker 1: I'm sure it all happened very quickly and naturally as
Speaker 1: a nineteen year old, I just said, yep, yep, ready
Speaker 1: to go. And he said, basically, the only way you're
Speaker 1: not playing the first Test is if you have a
Speaker 1: horror game against Wistera and he goes he pretty much
Speaker 1: just said, yeah, you're too good for that to happen.
Speaker 1: So you know, we're backing you in.
Speaker 3: So you're saying, yeah, right to go. How are you
Speaker 3: feeling inside.
Speaker 1: Though, Yeah, my heart's racing. All of a sudden, you
Speaker 1: get those game nerves that you get before any any
Speaker 1: cricket game you play.
Speaker 3: Not helped by the amount you probably drank that.
Speaker 1: Not it was. It was pretty early on in the night,
Speaker 1: so that was a good thing. I think I was
Speaker 1: able to think pretty clearly about what was to come
Speaker 1: and it all became really real. I think that was
Speaker 1: the moment that being part of an Australian cricket team
Speaker 1: or a cricket setup became real and he actually felt that, yeah,
Speaker 1: this is this is going to happen. Really cool night,
Speaker 1: like so cool to have the captain of the Test team,
Speaker 1: Michael Clark, a guy who you know, I still look
Speaker 1: up to, you know, I remember watching his debut when
Speaker 1: I was in I think I was in primary school.
Speaker 1: I think I was in year six when he made
Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty. For him to come up and
Speaker 1: just support you and believe in you like that and
Speaker 1: kind of look after you in a way give you
Speaker 1: a lot of warning that this is what is probably
Speaker 1: going to happen like that's that's really impressive, especially in
Speaker 1: that sort of setting. So it made me feel really
Speaker 1: comfortable straight away.
Speaker 3: So you go on, you play batting at number eleven,
Speaker 3: You come out and you score that famous ninety eight
Speaker 3: on taboo batting at number eleven.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's funny talking about it.
Speaker 3: It's still you shake your head as or you still
Speaker 3: don't quite believe that that actually happened yourself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it happened, and exactly right. I didn't expect it
Speaker 1: to go like that. I didn't know what I expect.
Speaker 1: I think the beauty is. I didn't have any expectations
Speaker 1: going out there, walking out there. I was sitting in
Speaker 1: the rooms. Ashton Turner was there. He was with the
Speaker 1: group for the first couple of tests, and you know,
Speaker 1: he's one of my best friends, and we were sitting
Speaker 1: watching Grahame Swan Bowl. You know, he was our favorite
Speaker 1: off spinner at the time. We're both spin nuffies. So
Speaker 1: we're going, what do you reckon watch I do to
Speaker 1: this bowl of that ball? He goes, mate, I go
Speaker 1: and smack him like this is our aspects, very cut
Speaker 1: and dry. Just go for it, mate. Anyway, all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, it's my turn to bat, and he was
Speaker 1: pretty much just looked at me and said good luck, mate,
Speaker 1: and all the boys gave me a pat on the
Speaker 1: back and I walked out there. And walking out there,
Speaker 1: the crowd, the noise was incredible. It felt like a
Speaker 1: wave of noise going from side to side across the ground.
Speaker 1: The Barmie Army were going bananas. I think we were
Speaker 1: nine for one hundred and seventeen, so they're in a
Speaker 1: pretty commanding position. I was just really happy to hit
Speaker 1: my first ball, survive my first ball, nudge my first
Speaker 1: one into the covers I think for one off Graham Swan,
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden I just got into
Speaker 1: my innings and it all just seemed to happen really naturally.
Speaker 1: From the ball just seemed to look bigger and bigger.
Speaker 1: I knew exactly where my family was sitting the whole time.
Speaker 1: You know, I was looking at them pretty much every
Speaker 1: single ball, after every ball, or before every ball that
Speaker 1: I faced. And it was a crazy day, but one
Speaker 1: I'll never forget.
Speaker 3: And they literally only just arrived in time for the
Speaker 3: Baggy Green presentation, didn't they They were pretty much running across
Speaker 3: the oval to get there in time.
Speaker 1: Because I told them on the main training session, so
Speaker 1: two days out from the game, but really like a
Speaker 1: day and a half because it was the evening time
Speaker 1: in England, you know, Buff and Rod Marsh walked up
Speaker 1: to me and they said you're in go and call
Speaker 1: your parents and that that was crazy. I went and
Speaker 1: called them straight away and that you know, they're all
Speaker 1: in tears, as families are when they're really proud of you.
Speaker 1: My brothers are screaming, you know, in excitement, so stoked.
Speaker 1: You know, Mum can't talk. Dad can hardly talk. And
Speaker 1: then we're like, shit, we need to book some flights
Speaker 1: real fast. And so they got on a plane within
Speaker 1: a matter of hours really to land in London, get
Speaker 1: straight in the taxi, go straight to knots from the airport.
Speaker 1: They're scrambling trying to open the suitcase. I think they
Speaker 1: couldn't open the lock on the suitcase. They thought the
Speaker 1: pass code was nine nine nine, but apparently it was
Speaker 1: six six six. So this is what Will has told
Speaker 1: me a couple of days ago on the phone. I
Speaker 1: didn't know that detail. They run out on the ground
Speaker 1: and just make my bag of green presentation. Awesome. Yeah,
Speaker 1: one of the great moments seeing them running out on
Speaker 1: the ground, you know, while I'm at Trent Bridge and
Speaker 1: we're all in a circle waiting for them. Yeah, that
Speaker 1: was the best.
Speaker 3: So when did you know you were on?
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's one shot. I played a drive down the
Speaker 1: ground off James Anderson. I saw the ball really clearly.
Speaker 1: I can still see it now if I close my eyes,
Speaker 1: I can still see exactly how it looks.
Speaker 3: And I love how cricketers literally shuto back this podcasts
Speaker 3: like they play every shot. So are you still in
Speaker 3: the middle.
Speaker 1: Oh, it's a great. Yeah, it's a feeling. I think
Speaker 1: you take yourself back and you know exactly how it feels.
Speaker 1: I think I've watched it a lot of times as well,
Speaker 1: because I often go back to that when.
Speaker 3: I is that right, when you've got a bit of
Speaker 3: self down.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, definitely, I love this.
Speaker 3: I've had a couple of cricketers tell me this that
Speaker 3: they go on to YouTube and basically watch their own
Speaker 3: highlights to get that feeling.
Speaker 1: Back all the time, all the time.
Speaker 3: How many times you reckn you watch.
Speaker 1: The ninety eight like I usually stop at a like
Speaker 1: well before the end, sort of parts. I'll watch a
Speaker 1: couple of shots, you know, but it's more just to
Speaker 1: see how I was setting up, Because looking back on that,
Speaker 1: I was like, gee, I was setting up really nicely
Speaker 1: at the crease. So I almost try and get back
Speaker 1: to that all the time. But I knew I was
Speaker 1: on when I hit that drive down the ground off
Speaker 1: James Anderson copped a mouthful from a few of the
Speaker 1: English players. You know, they're trying to make life pretty
Speaker 1: uncomfortable for me out there as a nineteen year old kid.
Speaker 1: But from that moment, I was like, I'm just going
Speaker 1: to watch the ball and play every ball on its merits,
Speaker 1: and if I see it there, I'm going to hit it.
Speaker 1: And lucky enough, I had a great anchor at the
Speaker 1: other end in Philip Hughes.
Speaker 3: That in itself makes this so much more special. I
Speaker 3: feel like, in hindsight, knowing what happens to have that
Speaker 3: moment with hughesy must be huge.
Speaker 1: Huge, so big. I'll never forget his face. It's impossible
Speaker 1: to forget, you know. I always do. When I'm trying
Speaker 1: to remember something, I always close my eyes. If I
Speaker 1: close my eyes, I can picture his face, like behind
Speaker 1: his grill, like I remember exactly how his helmet looked,
Speaker 1: exactly how his shirt looked out there when we were
Speaker 1: standing in the middle of the pitch and he's coming
Speaker 1: up to me and he would say things like next ball.
Speaker 1: Every ball he said that, like next ball, next ball.
Speaker 1: He kept me so present and in that moment, and
Speaker 1: I think if I didn't have that there, who knows
Speaker 1: what might have happened. I probably would have got caught
Speaker 1: up in the excitement and tried to play even more
Speaker 1: shots and got out a lot earlier. But he just
Speaker 1: kept me in the moment. To have a guy of
Speaker 1: his caliber there, like his experience, his skill still very
Speaker 1: young at that stage, but he'd played a lot of
Speaker 1: cricket and made a lot of hundreds, so he knew
Speaker 1: what it took to perform at that level. And he
Speaker 1: was always saying It was quite funny because he had
Speaker 1: a close relationship with Justin Langer, and he'd come up
Speaker 1: and with a very serious face, he'd be like, think
Speaker 1: of Lang, Think of Lang. You know what would Lang do?
Speaker 1: And he caught him Lang, So how he's folk? Yeah,
Speaker 1: think a Lang, Think a Lang. And I remember laughing
Speaker 1: the first time he said that. I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: good call, you know, good call. And because jayl was
Speaker 1: all about watching the pall as hard as you can
Speaker 1: and just focusing on that ball only and the next
Speaker 1: one and repeating that process. And that's exactly what I did.
Speaker 1: But to share such a special moment in my life
Speaker 1: with Phil, he's obviously not with us now. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: so grateful for that.
Speaker 3: Is it right? He was a bit of a hero
Speaker 3: of yours as well, even though he was still quite
Speaker 3: young himself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was a massive hero of mine. I have
Speaker 1: no shame in saying that I had a poster of
Speaker 1: him playing wild cut shot in New South Wales kid
Speaker 1: using his green cooker barra bat on my wall. Yeah,
Speaker 1: through high school probably, I reckon. I was up there
Speaker 1: for a couple of years and he must have been
Speaker 1: so young when that photos. Taking him on reflection now,
Speaker 1: he was so good at such a young age. And
Speaker 1: my brothers and I, my brother Will in particular, who
Speaker 1: batted a bit like him. He was his absolute hero.
Speaker 1: So we love the way he played and we loved
Speaker 1: the way he went about his cricket. And Will actually
Speaker 1: has one of Phil's bats. Piel gave me a bat
Speaker 1: during that a tour I remember giving it to Will,
Speaker 1: and Will treasures that. You know, he was very sad,
Speaker 1: as everyone was when Phil passed, but he treasures that
Speaker 1: bat there. It's probably his most prized possession.
Speaker 3: So you end up having that incredible innings and what
Speaker 3: a moment in a young man's life. And then the
Speaker 3: next test tell me a bit about that and what happened.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the next test was really interesting. I had ripped
Speaker 1: up my finger, my bowling finger a bit bowling with
Speaker 1: the Duke Sports that I never really bowled with before,
Speaker 1: so I was trying to find a way, a new
Speaker 1: way to hold the ball. I could feel that my
Speaker 1: action was off, and I was trying to work out
Speaker 1: what it was. I was desperately trying to work out
Speaker 1: what it was at training. As I said before, I'd
Speaker 1: played maybe seven or eight first class games up to
Speaker 1: this point, young in terms of a cricket age and
Speaker 1: the amount of experience I'd had, So I'm really fighting
Speaker 1: to save my bowling or get back to my best,
Speaker 1: not even knowing how I'd got there in the first place.
Speaker 1: I had no blueprint. I just picked up a ball
Speaker 1: and bowled, and I didn't know why it was good.
Speaker 1: I just knew that it was good at certain times.
Speaker 1: So that was a really uncomfortable feeling and it made
Speaker 1: me a little bit worried. What followed from that was
Speaker 1: a very average bowling performance, like from myself, and I
Speaker 1: was really flat about that because this was a Lord's Test.
Speaker 1: I'd met the Queen at the start of the Test,
Speaker 1: you know, everyone had spoken so much about what an
Speaker 1: amazing experience and amazing ground Lords is and I hated it.
Speaker 1: You know, I hated that Test match because I knew
Speaker 1: I was so much better than what I was putting out.
Speaker 1: It's just a horrible feeling when you're fighting in a
Speaker 1: Test match. You're trying to get something back. It's too
Speaker 1: far gone at that point. So we lost and I
Speaker 1: was dropped the next Test at Manchester, and I remember
Speaker 1: breathing the greatest sigh of relief because I was like,
Speaker 1: all right, really need to do some work on my
Speaker 1: bowling here and actually learn a little bit about what
Speaker 1: makes me the cricketer that I am.
Speaker 3: Because that's the interesting thing, because the public just saw
Speaker 3: this amazing story, you know, ninety eight on daboot, but
Speaker 3: you're actually picked for your bowling, you know, and to
Speaker 3: not deliver in that space in that second Test must
Speaker 3: have been tough.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was really tough because I bowled quite well
Speaker 1: in the second innings of the first Test. I got
Speaker 1: my first couple of wickets and that was better, Like
Speaker 1: getting my first wicket was better than getting that ninety eight.
Speaker 1: Like I promise you, I was so happy, total joy,
Speaker 1: screaming all the boys ruffling my hair that I had
Speaker 1: back then.
Speaker 3: You love that you just touched hair and went on
Speaker 3: and it's gone.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know it was Alistair Cook Michael Clark, big
Speaker 1: one handed diving catch at first slip. You know that
Speaker 1: that was the best moment of that whole Test, really
Speaker 1: for myself. So yeah, I guess everyone saw all the
Speaker 1: the high of the ninety eight, a couple of wickets,
Speaker 1: and then for me what felt like probably the biggest
Speaker 1: low of my cricketing career, which was Lord's which was
Speaker 1: supposed to be this amazing experience that I just really
Speaker 1: didn't enjoy it all. Yeah, and then when I finally
Speaker 1: did get told, I was dropped. Like I said, I
Speaker 1: was relieved.
Speaker 3: So, like I say, you've got the high, this massive
Speaker 3: high social media is sort of coming about and everyone's
Speaker 3: going nuts on social media. This Ashton Ager kid with
Speaker 3: the massive smile, and then you get dropped. You come
Speaker 3: back to Australia and speaking to your brother and you're
Speaker 3: now fiance. Mad's heading into this podcast. They sort of
Speaker 3: say that that was a pretty bloody tough time for
Speaker 3: you to come down afterwards.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I've tried to work out whether it was
Speaker 1: the come down from that or what it was, but
Speaker 1: I remember things just started to slip. That sort of
Speaker 1: felt like things just started to slip, and I didn't
Speaker 1: feel like myself. I just knew something wasn't right. And
Speaker 1: for the remainder of twenty thirteen and then especially twenty fourteen,
Speaker 1: that's when I started to experience a really strange time
Speaker 1: where I could feel that something was happening to me.
Speaker 1: I didn't know what it was, and I didn't know
Speaker 1: why I was feeling the way that I was. But
Speaker 1: it was like I was just watching it happen and
Speaker 1: letting it happen, and I felt like I had no
Speaker 1: control over that. So it was a bit scary.
Speaker 3: What were you feeling?
Speaker 1: Initially, I thought maybe I just need to go home,
Speaker 1: Maybe I just really missed my.
Speaker 3: Family back in Victoria.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I started worrying about everything. I started worrying about
Speaker 1: my God, I'm spending all of this time away from them.
Speaker 1: What if something happens to one of them and I've
Speaker 1: missed out on this. What if something happens to Mom
Speaker 1: and Dad? What if something happens to Will or Wears?
Speaker 1: And I was getting really anxious about that. I just
Speaker 1: always felt like I was running out of time. From
Speaker 1: then on, it probably developed into frustration, then in to
Speaker 1: flat out sadness, like deep sadness, And like I said,
Speaker 1: I didn't know why this was happening, And I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people probably think it was coming off
Speaker 1: such a high with ashes and everything like that and cricket,
Speaker 1: but really cricket was always felt like this absolute release
Speaker 1: and it was a time I could just play and
Speaker 1: totally be myself. So it wasn't It was never the cricket.
Speaker 1: But yeah, maybe that big emotional roller coast, so maybe
Speaker 1: that played apart, But there was certainly a transition, yeah,
Speaker 1: from that frustration to sadness to just isolating myself and
Speaker 1: starting the journey of trying to work out what's happening
Speaker 1: in my own head, not letting anyone else in on it,
Speaker 1: not wanting anyone to worry about me, particularly my family.
Speaker 1: So I really kept it all in and it just
Speaker 1: seemed to get a bit a bit worse.
Speaker 3: How did it manifest its self in your day to
Speaker 3: day life, be a cricket or at home?
Speaker 1: I was talking less and less. I was really irritable.
Speaker 1: I just was never there. I was never able to
Speaker 1: concentrate or really give myself to any situation. It's like
Speaker 1: my mind was always in this other place or it.
Speaker 1: Like I said, it felt like I was above myself
Speaker 1: looking down watching something happen to me, just watching yourself
Speaker 1: kind of just fade away, and it just kind of
Speaker 1: feels like your loving, fun, energetic soul just gets sucked
Speaker 1: right out of you. And you feel all of these things.
Speaker 1: So you feel all of these emotions of when you
Speaker 1: just want to cry, you don't want to talk, you
Speaker 1: don't want to go outside, you don't want to eat.
Speaker 1: You know, you feel all of these things, and then
Speaker 1: at the same time, you feel just so numb. So
Speaker 1: you feel everything and nothing at the same time. And
Speaker 1: that's one of the strangest feelings I remember feeling for
Speaker 1: the first time. So I knew there was something going on,
Speaker 1: but because I probably never told anyone about it. I
Speaker 1: let that affect my life and situations outside of when
Speaker 1: I was just with myself, you know, So I think
Speaker 1: it probably moved on into my cricket a little bit.
Speaker 1: The following season, you know, late twenty thirteen twenty fourteen season,
Speaker 1: we had a horrible time of it. Not because I
Speaker 1: was hating cricket, but just because I just couldn't do it.
Speaker 1: I could not give the energy or the commitment that
Speaker 1: I needed to to perform at a professional level. I
Speaker 1: just did not want to move. Or I'd just decide
Speaker 1: that I'd just stay in bed for a little while,
Speaker 1: and that'd turn into hours and hours and hours. I
Speaker 1: remember I'd get home from training some days and I
Speaker 1: would maybe sometimes have some food that was there. I'd
Speaker 1: have a shower and get changed, and I'd probably just
Speaker 1: like hop in a bed and think. And this would
Speaker 1: be like early afternoon, and then it'll be dark all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, like so quickly that would happen, and
Speaker 1: you just felt so crap because you're like, what have
Speaker 1: I done? Then you're really unkind to yourself and you're like,
Speaker 1: why have I just wasted away my whole day? But
Speaker 1: you do it again and again. You know, sometimes that
Speaker 1: would last for a week, or there'd just be little
Speaker 1: periods where that would happen, And each time that would happen,
Speaker 1: it probably just felt a little bit worse.
Speaker 3: How to affect your relationship with Justin Langer, who was
Speaker 3: the WA coach at the time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we started. I started being quite argumentative. I think
Speaker 1: small things would make me really angry. I think I
Speaker 1: was starting to look at life a little bit differently,
Speaker 1: and I just decided I wasn't going to agree with
Speaker 1: a lot of things. That's probably how it looked from
Speaker 1: his perspective, especially. I remember day he called me into
Speaker 1: his office and he said, mate, what's going on? Like?
Speaker 1: Am I the enemy all of a sudden? You know,
Speaker 1: I'm trying to help you, but what's happening. You seem
Speaker 1: to keep, you know, disagreeing or fighting with everything that
Speaker 1: I say. And I was just angry and frustrated, and yeah,
Speaker 1: I absolutely I just broke down, like in his office
Speaker 1: and I was like, yeah, something's wrong. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I'd remember just saying I don't know, and he was
Speaker 1: just gone, what's wrong, man, I'm just saying I don't know.
Speaker 1: I had no idea, So that was really difficult because
Speaker 1: it was affecting the thing that I love the most,
Speaker 1: which is my cricket, being around my teammates and my
Speaker 1: life at home, like my relationship with Maddie, my relationship
Speaker 1: with Perth. Really at the time, I was kind of
Speaker 1: just getting rid of it all. I just wanted to
Speaker 1: go back to Melbourne because I thought, well, maybe that'd
Speaker 1: make me feel a bit better. But really it didn't
Speaker 1: do much at all.
Speaker 3: When you say argumentative with jol, we're literally having arguments
Speaker 3: like our net sessions and those sorts of things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I think as a nineteen or
Speaker 1: twenty year old, played.
Speaker 3: A couple of tests and just thought I'll take him off.
Speaker 1: That's maybe that's how I looked for some people. But
Speaker 1: I think the guys that knew me and who'd probably played,
Speaker 1: you know, would come up playing junior cardials against each
Speaker 1: other and maybe some under nineteen stuff for Australia, you know,
Speaker 1: Cam Bancroft, Ash Turner, Joel Parris. These guys are probably
Speaker 1: thinking what is going on with that? That's not him
Speaker 1: at all, you know, quite a relaxed, easy going and
Speaker 1: an imperson that loves playing cricket. All of a sudden,
Speaker 1: I was at training not wanting to talk and having
Speaker 1: these stupid arguments because I just would decide I didn't
Speaker 1: agree with something, And I think that was just the
Speaker 1: way of letting something out, you know. Reflecting on that,
Speaker 1: that was it was like I saw this opportunity to
Speaker 1: release some of the emotion that had built up inside
Speaker 1: of me that I had kept inside and not told
Speaker 1: anyone about, and that I was absolutely fighting with and
Speaker 1: trying to work out. That was my release and that's
Speaker 1: a poor way to deal with it. And I wish
Speaker 1: it didn't happen that way, but it did. But it
Speaker 1: only strengthened my relationship with Jail. But I had a
Speaker 1: long way to go from, you know, those years twenty
Speaker 1: thirteen twenty fourteen in particular.
Speaker 3: How do you reflect upon twenty fourteen?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not something I like doing very much, and
Speaker 1: I find it difficult because I pretty much can't remember it.
Speaker 1: And that's really scary.
Speaker 3: You mean you literally can't remember.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why it's scary. I can't remember like the
Speaker 1: order of events of things that happened in twenty fourteen,
Speaker 1: when it just felt like a year that totally spiraled
Speaker 1: out of control. Yeah, I remember I went home at
Speaker 1: one stage. I can't really remember exactly when that was.
Speaker 1: I can't remember what I did when I was back
Speaker 1: in Perth. It's just all jumbled up in my mind
Speaker 1: and it's really horrible, and the brain does some really
Speaker 1: funny things there. You know. There was obviously a lot
Speaker 1: of noise and a lot of chaos going on in
Speaker 1: my mind at that time for me not to be
Speaker 1: able to piece it together or remember anything, no matter
Speaker 1: how much I try, I just cannot remember what really happened.
Speaker 3: In hindsight. Do you think you would depressed?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I think so. Yeah at times, Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: if I wasn't. It certainly felt like that when I'm
Speaker 1: able to describe it as an out of body experience
Speaker 1: where you just watch, where you can feel something happening,
Speaker 1: and then it's like you're watching yourself and you just
Speaker 1: flat out let it happen, and you sit with it
Speaker 1: and you feel every single bit of it, and then
Speaker 1: you feel so numb. Having read about it a little bit,
Speaker 1: spoken to other people, heard other people, I don't really
Speaker 1: know what else it could have been at that stage,
Speaker 1: and for a fair chunk of that year, Yeah, it
Speaker 1: was pretty horrible.
Speaker 3: You and Mad's even broke up for a little bit,
Speaker 3: didn't you. That's how bad it got.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, by no fault of her. It was just
Speaker 1: getting I was just getting rid of everything. I was
Speaker 1: totally isolating myself. Everything felt like so much of an effort.
Speaker 1: The simplest of task, like listening to music in the car, like,
Speaker 1: I'd get frustrated. I'd just turn it off. It'll be
Speaker 1: too much noise, simple conversations, I'd just get frustrated and
Speaker 1: short because I just couldn't listen to it because there
Speaker 1: was so much thinking and so much going on in
Speaker 1: my head that I couldn't give any attention to anything,
Speaker 1: and I think particularly to a relationship. It was actually
Speaker 1: just way too hard. I could not do it. It
Speaker 1: was totally unfair on her. But what was really unfair
Speaker 1: is I just never let anyone in on it, so
Speaker 1: no one really knew. So maybe everyone else thought it
Speaker 1: was them, maybe everyone thought they were doing something wrong, But.
Speaker 3: So you weren't getting help at all.
Speaker 1: Nah, not at all. People knew something was going on.
Speaker 1: People would ask me, how are you going, mate? You know,
Speaker 1: and you know, when someone else knows that there's something wrong,
Speaker 1: you know, they're going, oh, have you been feeling you know,
Speaker 1: you've been a bit quiet, and you're thinking, oh, gee,
Speaker 1: I don't have to smile all the time. But you
Speaker 1: realize you haven't smiled in ages, and that's who you are.
Speaker 1: So I refused it, I think because I didn't want
Speaker 1: to put my burden onto them what felt like this
Speaker 1: huge weight on my shoulders. I didn't want to put
Speaker 1: that on their shoulders. I felt really guilty about that.
Speaker 1: And I've always kind of had that in me, where
Speaker 1: I've tried to do things for myself and work things
Speaker 1: out for myself. But in that situation, as I've learned now,
Speaker 1: as you go through this journey, that's the worst thing
Speaker 1: you can possibly do.
Speaker 3: Do you wish you asked for help sooner?
Speaker 1: I wish I had listened or acted on people who
Speaker 1: offered help, you know, or gone back to them and said, yeah,
Speaker 1: you were right, there is something wrong.
Speaker 3: Tell me about your maiden first class century.
Speaker 1: M That's a probably really important point in this journey
Speaker 1: for me. We were playing in Tazzy and I don't
Speaker 1: I don't know if anyone. I don't even know if
Speaker 1: I've told this story or not. So it's pretty big yeah,
Speaker 1: playing in Tazzy and I made a hundred. It's a
Speaker 1: pink ball game, you know, as you do you make
Speaker 1: a hundred, you feel amazing and you raise the bad
Speaker 1: and that was great. But then I remember in the
Speaker 1: we were bowling. See what I mean when it gets
Speaker 1: jumbled up in my head. I can't remember if this
Speaker 1: was before I'd made the hundred or after I had
Speaker 1: made the hundred, but I was bowling it over and
Speaker 1: this is the first time it had ever hit me
Speaker 1: on a creet field and I was bowling, bowed a
Speaker 1: couple of balls, and I was frustrated, nothing to do
Speaker 1: with the ball. I'd bowled a couple of ice balls.
Speaker 1: Then I was getting real it, just like really sad.
Speaker 1: Bowled another ball, like walking back to my mIRC, like
Speaker 1: closing my eyes, just like trying to fight this feeling. Off.
Speaker 1: Bled another ball and I could just feel like a
Speaker 1: tear like running down the side of my eye, and
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, this is not good, and I
Speaker 1: just walked off. I remember through the ball to Ogsy,
Speaker 1: I got my hat. This is after the OVID finished
Speaker 1: and I walked off. I just walked off, didn't say
Speaker 1: anything to anyone, and I just walked straight off the
Speaker 1: ground and just sat in the race and cried. And
Speaker 1: that was horrific because it didn't cricket through. Any time
Speaker 1: that I'd felt that way was always like this beautiful
Speaker 1: distraction where I wasn't in my own head, you know,
Speaker 1: But this over it was that numb sad, really sad feeling,
Speaker 1: no anxiety, just sadness and just darkness. That's all it
Speaker 1: felt like. And I walked off the ground and I
Speaker 1: was in tears, and Nick Jones' physio came down. I
Speaker 1: remember he called up Angie Bain, who was our PDM
Speaker 1: at the Whacko at the time, amazing lady who had
Speaker 1: tried her absolute best to help me because she'd seen
Speaker 1: that there was something wrong, and she was on the
Speaker 1: phone and I was sort of chatting, and I just
Speaker 1: remember kind of sobbing really and just saying, I don't know,
Speaker 1: I don't know, like I don't know what's happening. I
Speaker 1: can't describe it. There's no reason for this, it is
Speaker 1: just happening. And it just felt like it was totally
Speaker 1: out of control and it felt like something had total
Speaker 1: control over me. Yeah, so that was a horrible moment. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that wasn't very nice at all. I really enjoyed making
Speaker 1: my hundred, but I remember sitting back and thinking about
Speaker 1: it at the end of the game, like, you shouldn't
Speaker 1: be feeling like this after such a good time.
Speaker 3: What did your teammates end up saying to you? Did
Speaker 3: they ever ask you or did they assume you're injured
Speaker 3: or what?
Speaker 1: No, they I actually don't really know what they were told,
Speaker 1: but I think they knew that there was just something wrong,
Speaker 1: like I wasn't going too well, but I'd kept a
Speaker 1: lot from them, so I think they just saw me
Speaker 1: just sitting in this kind of dark sort of room,
Speaker 1: like in the rooms in Tazzy there was like the
Speaker 1: change room and there was this other little room, and
Speaker 1: I was just kind of sitting there. I don't remember
Speaker 1: being quite embarrassed as they walked in, you know, for lunchtime,
Speaker 1: and they were walking past, and then you know, couple
Speaker 1: gave me a hard or a couple gave me a
Speaker 1: pat on the back, and I felt embarrassed because I
Speaker 1: was like, fuck, I I don't want anyone to see
Speaker 1: me like this. But at that stage, I actually couldn't
Speaker 1: control it. Yeah, I hated that. I hated that so
Speaker 1: much because I had no control over it, and I
Speaker 1: don't really remember what I did about it. I didn't
Speaker 1: really do much about it. I chatted to and quite
Speaker 1: a bit after that would catch up a bit and
Speaker 1: try and talk through it and try and learn about it. Basically,
Speaker 1: I remember one day feeling pretty good and just being like, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I'm sweet, I'm all good, And that's kind of what
Speaker 1: i'd tell everyone when I felt that way. I'd have
Speaker 1: a really average moment, and then all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: the next day you feel good again, and you think
Speaker 1: you're fine, or you tell everyone else you're fine because
Speaker 1: you don't want them to worry, and it just keeps
Speaker 1: repeating yourself that way.
Speaker 3: How long did this happen for?
Speaker 1: Yeah, those moments didn't happen too often, they were just
Speaker 1: really bad when they did. Twenty fourteen was probably the
Speaker 1: longest stint of the real sadness, numb feeling that read
Speaker 1: its head again that day at Bell Reeve. After that,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say it was consistent. I would just live
Speaker 1: really normally, and then I would have periods of time
Speaker 1: where I wasn't able to give much of myself, and
Speaker 1: then that would again come into my cricket, and then
Speaker 1: there are a couple of times where I had to
Speaker 1: have a bit of a break and I think, you know,
Speaker 1: you see players having a bit of time off now,
Speaker 1: and you know we've seen it with Moses, with Snick, Madison, Wilbakovski.
Speaker 1: I'm so proud of them because and in a way,
Speaker 1: I'm really happy. I'm proud of myself for stepping back
Speaker 1: sometimes because it's not always the cricket. Everyone looks at
Speaker 1: it from the outside. They say, oh, you know, the
Speaker 1: cricket's too much for them, or you know, they can't
Speaker 1: deal with the pressure or the expectation. It has nothing
Speaker 1: for me. It has nothing to do with cricket at all.
Speaker 1: I just it would be so unfair for me to
Speaker 1: try and play at a professional, elite standard. It's unfair
Speaker 1: on the team for me to do that, because it's
Speaker 1: like they're playing with one less player. Because when I'm there,
Speaker 1: I don't want to be there when I'm playing like that,
Speaker 1: because I just can't. There's too much happening in my head.
Speaker 1: It's sapping all of the energy out of me, and
Speaker 1: I just cannot give enough. And if you can't give
Speaker 1: your best self, that's when you need to take a
Speaker 1: step back.
Speaker 3: You're listening to ordinarily speaking with Ashton Ager. So your
Speaker 3: brother Will tells me about a story I think around
Speaker 3: sort of that twenty fourteen twenty five fifteen time of
Speaker 3: you coming back to Victoria for a visit and I
Speaker 3: think you're at your auntie's house for a function or
Speaker 3: a barbecue or something, and he says that you kind
Speaker 3: of lost your call. And that was when he and
Speaker 3: he's one of, you know, pretty much your best mate
Speaker 3: with Wehres, and he that stands out in his mind
Speaker 3: of there's something not quite right with my brother.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we were up at my auntie's like their holiday
Speaker 1: house in Victoria, and I was with Will and Weres
Speaker 1: and Mad was there as well, and I snapped at
Speaker 1: him and I said something really mean that I would
Speaker 1: never say or and I was immediately like so regretful
Speaker 1: and so sad. And it was kind of like the
Speaker 1: moments of where I'd argue, you know, I have a
Speaker 1: run in with Jail at training or anyone. It was
Speaker 1: like another one of those moments where I released this
Speaker 1: emotion that it's just so damaging, like and it probably
Speaker 1: gets more and more damaging when you think about it.
Speaker 1: The more you let it go, the more room there
Speaker 1: is for something to go wrong. And that was one
Speaker 1: of those moments. I remember just being like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: this is my brother, Like you can't do that to
Speaker 1: someone you love so much, you know, and like and
Speaker 1: because Willan wears you know, they have my absolute best friends,
Speaker 1: Like they're the best. I'm so close with them, I
Speaker 1: love them so much, I'm so protective of them, and
Speaker 1: I'll do anything for them so too. When you like
Speaker 1: that moment when I said something to him or snapped
Speaker 1: at him, it's so out of character and for me
Speaker 1: to be so sad and regretful afterwards, I think he
Speaker 1: was like, holy shit, Like that's not Ash at all,
Speaker 1: because he's only seen me as his big brother, you know,
Speaker 1: and how I am and how I was most of
Speaker 1: the time when these moments weren't there, I was just Ash,
Speaker 1: He's big brother. That was just love life. But I
Speaker 1: think it shows that you have to do something about
Speaker 1: it as fast as you can. You have to tell someone,
Speaker 1: you have to talk about it, otherwise it takes hold
Speaker 1: of you and it can do some damaging things.
Speaker 3: You've still managed to play quite a bit of cricket
Speaker 3: for Australia over these years. How did you manage it
Speaker 3: and how did you navigate your way because particularly when
Speaker 3: you're away for a really long time, you know a
Speaker 3: lot of the time you're in the squad, but not
Speaker 3: necessarily playing like that in itself is quite challenging, and
Speaker 3: even though you say it's not cricket, the compounding nature
Speaker 3: of that to me as an outside it would be
Speaker 3: quite intense.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've managed to play a lot of cricket in
Speaker 1: the meantime, like I keep saying, for most of this time,
Speaker 1: Like I really enjoyed that, and I've enjoyed my life
Speaker 1: a lot in between, and I've been very happy, but
Speaker 1: those moments kept popping up. I was away for quite
Speaker 1: a while with the Australian team and we had our
Speaker 1: home summer here and I was on tour. I didn't
Speaker 1: play a game, but I was on tour the whole time,
Speaker 1: and I've been away for a long time before that.
Speaker 1: And then we were playing a game at Opta Stadium
Speaker 1: and the same thing happened. I wasn't very emotional at all,
Speaker 1: but I was absolutely not there. So it was Wavers,
Speaker 1: New South Wales. There's only a couple of years ago,
Speaker 1: and everyone knew it was like really obvious that and
Speaker 1: it just came across that I just didn't care. And
Speaker 1: I think guys thought that I just didn't give a
Speaker 1: shit or just had had an af you know, or
Speaker 1: maybe thought I was above it, which has never been
Speaker 1: the case for me. I just couldn't give what I
Speaker 1: wanted to give into that game. And that's just how
Speaker 1: it looks when you stopped talking. You're out there and
Speaker 1: you just can't do your job properly because you have
Speaker 1: nothing left. And I think from that point on is
Speaker 1: when I probably started to think a bit more about
Speaker 1: doing something about it, because I'd had a long period
Speaker 1: of time before that, So this is probably twenty eighteen.
Speaker 1: I'd had a really good period like twenty seven, twenty sixteen, seventeen,
Speaker 1: where I'd felt great, absolutely fine, like and I had
Speaker 1: had no incidence. Life was awesome, and then all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, out of nowhere, you get this massive reality
Speaker 1: check and it has a big impact on you and
Speaker 1: your team and potentially the team season because it's a
Speaker 1: really important game and you reflect and the same thing happens.
Speaker 1: You're sad about it. You're immediately regretful, it's just the
Speaker 1: same pattern.
Speaker 3: Because you look uncomfortable when you talk about like you
Speaker 3: look uncomfortable reflecting on yourself in that moment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's disappointing. Like you, it's just you don't
Speaker 1: want to do that to anyone, you know, you don't
Speaker 1: want your own troubles to affect anyone else, and you
Speaker 1: naturally feel pretty guilty about that. So yeah, I hate
Speaker 1: thinking about it. I don't really like talking about it
Speaker 1: very much. But it's kind of important how to do
Speaker 1: because I think there will be a lot of people
Speaker 1: that to feel this way or feel that way sometimes
Speaker 1: who also feel like they don't want to put this
Speaker 1: burden on someone else, and I don't want them, you know,
Speaker 1: to make the same mistakes that I have of just
Speaker 1: letting it go for a little bit too long.
Speaker 3: So you end up taking a week or two away
Speaker 3: from the game. In twenty eighteen, how bad was your
Speaker 3: headspace to make that call?
Speaker 1: It wasn't horrendous, so it wasn't as bad as it
Speaker 1: had been in the past, so things were it felt
Speaker 1: like things were getting a little bit better, but it
Speaker 1: was definitely there. It took that week away, which was
Speaker 1: the best thing I did, and I had the full
Speaker 1: support of Adam Vogis, which is really important. But it was,
Speaker 1: like I said, it was another reminder that I had
Speaker 1: to do something about it. Maybe it's time to actually
Speaker 1: talk to someone about it. Maybe it's time to learn
Speaker 1: a bit more about what was actually happening. And I
Speaker 1: think probably from that point on I did.
Speaker 3: How does that conversation go down when you walk into
Speaker 3: a coach's office and say I need You're always smiling
Speaker 3: when I'm asking the question. Yeah, because it's still We're
Speaker 3: getting better at it, but it still is a little
Speaker 3: taboo when an elite athlete says I need some time away.
Speaker 3: How does that conversation go down for us me immortals
Speaker 3: that will never understand.
Speaker 1: I've been lucky. I've had always had good coaches, amazing
Speaker 1: support staff, great family. The conversation was after the game.
Speaker 1: Fogsie came out and knew it was going to happen.
Speaker 1: I was just kind of waiting for it to happen,
Speaker 1: and he goes, Ash, let's go for a lap, and
Speaker 1: we went for a few laps around Optus and it
Speaker 1: basically is the same thing, mate, what's going on? I
Speaker 1: think it was quite frustrated at my performance and at
Speaker 1: what had happened, because from the outside it looked like
Speaker 1: I just didn't care, when that wasn't the case. You know,
Speaker 1: I just couldn't do what I wanted to do. I
Speaker 1: was honest, and I just said, man, I just could
Speaker 1: not I couldn't be there, I couldn't do it, and
Speaker 1: I can't do it at the moment. And he said, look,
Speaker 1: I think you need to take some time off, mate,
Speaker 1: And that's really lucky. That was his suggestion. And the
Speaker 1: next game was in Melbourne. He said, come to Melbourne,
Speaker 1: you go see how you feel, train, see how that feels.
Speaker 1: But there was no pressure on you to play. You
Speaker 1: have a full support and just stay with your family
Speaker 1: for the week while we play. And I remember I
Speaker 1: went to training and I was like trying to buy.
Speaker 1: I was like forcing it. But again there's like I
Speaker 1: had no control over like how I was sort of
Speaker 1: really feeling. He says. He was just really obvious. He's like, nah, mate,
Speaker 1: and he just said go and yeah, I spent that
Speaker 1: week with my family, which is really refreshing. It's funny
Speaker 1: what you do and you've got great people around you.
Speaker 1: And I think they realized as well that I probably
Speaker 1: wasn't feeling so great at the time.
Speaker 3: There was a moment earlier this year where you earlier
Speaker 3: last year, sorry, twenty twenty, where you actually made a call.
Speaker 3: I believe you're sitting on a plane and you just, yeah,
Speaker 3: decided that things needed to change.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a couple of really important moments last year. I
Speaker 1: think this is probably the first of them. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: I wrote some things down and I'll tell you a
Speaker 1: few of them, if that's all right.
Speaker 3: I got your journal in front of you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I I asked myself a couple of credit, got
Speaker 1: my little journal.
Speaker 3: Are you do you write a lot normally?
Speaker 1: No, not a big not a big journal person or
Speaker 1: but this is like really natural. It just just happened.
Speaker 1: So it was on the eighth of the second twenty twenty,
Speaker 1: and I wrote to myself, I said, what do I
Speaker 1: want out of life? Or like, you know, what do
Speaker 1: I really want? I said, I want a good life.
Speaker 1: What does that mean? What does that look like? A
Speaker 1: happy and loving relationship with mads a family? Said I
Speaker 1: want a beautiful house. I think that's something I've always
Speaker 1: wanted since I was a kid.
Speaker 3: We're sitting in it, so tick.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is nice. I'm very lucky. I want to
Speaker 1: look after Mum and dad, and I always want to
Speaker 1: be close at will and wears. So those two ones
Speaker 1: are very important to me because you know, Mum and
Speaker 1: Dad always did everything that they could for always and eye,
Speaker 1: you know, growing up, and try to give us the
Speaker 1: best life that they possibly could in whatever way they
Speaker 1: could at the time.
Speaker 3: And you have a bit of guilt about that, don't
Speaker 3: you with your dad?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I do. And it's a strange, strange feeling.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I've just seen him work so hard
Speaker 1: for such a long time. He does heating and cooling,
Speaker 1: and he's got his own business and that's wonderful and
Speaker 1: he's very proud of that, and he's worked bloody hard
Speaker 1: for that. But you know, he'd come home from work
Speaker 1: and he'd say, g h. He goes, you don't want
Speaker 1: to do this, mate, so keep working, keep working hard,
Speaker 1: he goes, keep doing well, you keep startying hard whatever
Speaker 1: it was he because he'd say this all the time,
Speaker 1: because you don't want to do this, mate, Because he'd
Speaker 1: be covered in dirt, tired, sore. And the first time
Speaker 1: I ever felt really guilty about that was back in
Speaker 1: that twenty thirteen fourteen. Murky period was where it was
Speaker 1: a time where he didn't have like a lot of
Speaker 1: work on at the time, and I felt terrible for
Speaker 1: that because he was trying so hard and working so hard.
Speaker 1: Yet I had started to see good money, was living
Speaker 1: a life that anyone would want to live, and I
Speaker 1: wanted to throw it all away just to feel normal again.
Speaker 1: And I found that very difficult because you see him
Speaker 1: going on like that, and that's hard, that's hard to
Speaker 1: deal with, and that was very confusing, yeah, for me,
Speaker 1: because I was like, how dare I feel this way
Speaker 1: when he's doing that. Yeah?
Speaker 3: You must know now, though, that you are a product
Speaker 3: of his hard work, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Absolutely? I've definitely got their balance of both of my
Speaker 1: parents in me, Will was and I everything for them.
Speaker 1: You know, they're protective of us. They just want us
Speaker 1: to do well. So I think that's in turn, how
Speaker 1: I want to be. And it's nice, you know. I
Speaker 1: like that. I look up to my parents. I love that,
Speaker 1: and I find it, as you can hear, pretty pretty
Speaker 1: difficult to talk about. See. Like I said, I want
Speaker 1: to look after them because I'm in a position to
Speaker 1: do that. And then I want to be a good son,
Speaker 1: you know, fiance at the moment, husband soon, brother, friend, leader,
Speaker 1: cricketer and the one day father And at the bottom
Speaker 1: of that page, I just want to be a good
Speaker 1: per Obviously that's bloody important to me, as you can hear.
Speaker 1: But I then wrote, how do I get there? And
Speaker 1: that's when you have to be like really honest with yourself.
Speaker 1: I think and sort of analyze or what are the
Speaker 1: values that I want to live by and what are
Speaker 1: the things that I can improve? Where do I maybe
Speaker 1: let myself down? Sometimes? I said, I need to be
Speaker 1: more open and honest, you know, with everyone and in
Speaker 1: particular mad And I think in doing that, they'll be
Speaker 1: understand able to understand me, you know, a lot, a
Speaker 1: lot better, and they won't have to worry as much
Speaker 1: at all because there'll be this open line of communication where.
Speaker 3: Because you wish you lent on them more over these.
Speaker 1: Years, Yeah, definitely, and I probably saved them a lot
Speaker 1: of maybe not heartache, but just a bit of like
Speaker 1: them being worried about me and my well being.
Speaker 3: Is that the irony that when somebody is suffering from
Speaker 3: mental health issues that you don't talk to me people
Speaker 3: because you don't want to be the burden. But actually
Speaker 3: I'm not talking to them. You become more of a
Speaker 3: burden because they worry and they don't understand.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's all because they love you. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: just love you and they don't want to see anyone
Speaker 1: that they love going through something that they would never
Speaker 1: want to go through.
Speaker 3: Have you ever had a conversation with your family about
Speaker 3: how the depths of how things got?
Speaker 1: Never? Never have never wanted them to. I never wanted
Speaker 1: anyone to know anyone. I think this is the most
Speaker 1: open I've ever been about it. So it's about time
Speaker 1: I grew up and did something about it. In that sense,
Speaker 1: maybe I tried to grow up a bit too fast.
Speaker 3: I thought you could do it all on your own,
Speaker 3: I think so.
Speaker 1: I think.
Speaker 3: So what do you think they're going to think when
Speaker 3: they hear this?
Speaker 1: I don't know about that. Later, I think they I
Speaker 1: think they know a fair beard. Yeah, I'm a bit
Speaker 1: nervous about it, but I know that in the most
Speaker 1: beautiful way, they don't care. They love me no matter what,
Speaker 1: and they won't be frustrated, they won't be angry, They'll
Speaker 1: just be supportive. And I think they know I've come
Speaker 1: a really long way, and that my last couple of
Speaker 1: years or have been wonderful and I've actually done something
Speaker 1: about it, and I think they know that.
Speaker 3: Keep reading.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, we need to be more open and honest.
Speaker 1: So that was a big gay way to that little conversation.
Speaker 1: Then I need to work on my patients so I
Speaker 1: don't lose my call or say things that I end
Speaker 1: up regretting. I need to be more accepting of others
Speaker 1: and the differences and allow them to be their true
Speaker 1: selves around me. So you know, I'm only doing this
Speaker 1: now because you're being so accepting of me, you know,
Speaker 1: and my differences or my mistakes or the good parts
Speaker 1: of me. You're accepting all of it now, and I
Speaker 1: can open up and talk to you about it because
Speaker 1: I know. I just know that you're not judging me.
Speaker 1: And if everyone was like that to everyone else, well
Speaker 1: you probably help a lot of people. A lot of
Speaker 1: people wouldn't be struggling. The best one, my favorite one,
Speaker 1: I don't know we spoke about it before. I think
Speaker 1: your favorite one as well. Seek first to understand. We're
Speaker 1: very fast to jump to conclusions without knowing anything about
Speaker 1: someone else or what they're dealing with or what they've
Speaker 1: been through. You know, everyone has their own fight or struggle.
Speaker 1: Everyone has something going on at their life at some stage.
Speaker 1: So try and understand what someone is saying. Try and
Speaker 1: understand where they're coming from. Even though you may not
Speaker 1: agree with it, Just try and understand and then you
Speaker 1: might reach some common ground. A few little words I
Speaker 1: wrote down with reflection optimism. I think optimism is a
Speaker 1: choice and reflection is something you can do as a
Speaker 1: bit of a measure, something that can help you continually improve.
Speaker 1: You can always reflect, and then you can always choose optimism,
Speaker 1: and then your outlook is way more positive straight away
Speaker 1: because you have that conscious choice. Take my own advice.
Speaker 1: That was a really honest one. Be about it, you know,
Speaker 1: take my own advice. Be about it. I've had some
Speaker 1: amazing experiences and I've been able to help people through
Speaker 1: chatting a bit about my experiences, my life experiences and whatever.
Speaker 1: But probably time I help myself with some of that
Speaker 1: and learn and listen to what I'm saying to other
Speaker 1: people and use it for myself sometimes. So that was
Speaker 1: a big one. Be a better listener. I just put
Speaker 1: a star next to that and underlined it because I
Speaker 1: think we all have plenty of conversations day to day
Speaker 1: where you're hearing the other person but you're not really listening.
Speaker 1: And coming from our perspective from a mental health standpoint,
Speaker 1: someone may be talking to you and if you're really listening,
Speaker 1: you can you might be able to work out to
Speaker 1: this something's not right, something's wrong, and sometimes these people
Speaker 1: just want to be listened to and heard. It was
Speaker 1: a really nice reflection piece, and then that probably led
Speaker 1: into me reaching out a bit more and seeking a
Speaker 1: little bit more help.
Speaker 3: What help did you get? There's another book here.
Speaker 1: I've got another book. It's just my journal of little
Speaker 1: notes that I wrote down through my chats with Michael Lloyd.
Speaker 1: So the Cricket Australia psychologists amazing human and I don't
Speaker 1: think I ever realized how good he was until I
Speaker 1: had something that I really had to sort out. Six
Speaker 1: months ago. I was waking up in the mornings. Everything
Speaker 1: had been quite good for a couple of years. I
Speaker 1: reckon and I was waking up in the mornings and
Speaker 1: my heart was thumping. I was anxious. As soon as
Speaker 1: I woke up. My breathing was faster and it was
Speaker 1: like I was panicking. Every single time I woke up.
Speaker 1: This is probably one of the first times I felt
Speaker 1: this horrible, crippling sort of anxiety where I didn't want
Speaker 1: to do anything. I didn't want to move. I did
Speaker 1: the same thing where you don't want to actually want
Speaker 1: to get out of bed, and that was very, very scary.
Speaker 1: Similar pattern, but rather than being on more of the
Speaker 1: depressive like numb sad scale, this is like panic stress,
Speaker 1: really worrying about something that might happen, something that hasn't
Speaker 1: even happened yet, and you can physically feel it, like
Speaker 1: I could feel my heart racing. I knew I was
Speaker 1: breathing faster. I remember one morning it felt like I
Speaker 1: was literally going to pass out, and I never felt
Speaker 1: that before.
Speaker 3: Do you know what trick it at?
Speaker 1: I do? I do? And it's a on reflection. It's
Speaker 1: something that has played a massive role in what I'd
Speaker 1: been feeling this whole time. I think. I think there's
Speaker 1: like an inextricable link between these two things, and it's
Speaker 1: got to do with chronic pain. When I was younger,
Speaker 1: in year twelve, stood up one day from my desk
Speaker 1: where I was studying, and my arm, shoulder, whole area
Speaker 1: felt lower. I didn't know what was going on. I
Speaker 1: was like, I remember, took my top off. I was like, Mum, Dad, like,
Speaker 1: my shoulder look lower to you, is something wrong? And
Speaker 1: They're like no, no, And it felt like I couldn't
Speaker 1: hold my shoulder up. So from that day in twenty eleven,
Speaker 1: every day I'd been sort of like trying to hold
Speaker 1: my own my own shoulder up, and my outlook on
Speaker 1: things like my future life from a physical point had
Speaker 1: been that really bleak. I thought I was the catastrophic
Speaker 1: thought you have in your Head's like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: I'm going to have to consciously hold my shoulder up
Speaker 1: for the rest of my life.
Speaker 3: What triggered it was?
Speaker 1: It?
Speaker 3: Was there an injury? Was it no being stressed with
Speaker 3: exams at the time, what was it that?
Speaker 1: No trigger, No, nothing at all. So if you could imagine,
Speaker 1: it's actually so hard to describe because there was no trigger,
Speaker 1: no reason for it to happen.
Speaker 3: But just one morning, you just yeah, you felt this
Speaker 3: undeniable physical thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And from that point on a pattern had developed.
Speaker 1: I was getting really tight, you know, for probably from
Speaker 1: my right eye down my face, down my neck, down
Speaker 1: my shoulder, down the back of my shoulder blade. My
Speaker 1: arm was feeling weak, and this went on and on
Speaker 1: and on. It was years and years up until now,
Speaker 1: and I was in a lot of for a long time,
Speaker 1: but I sort of knew that it was a bit
Speaker 1: different from when you get an injury, in the pain
Speaker 1: you get from an injury, this would happen in certain
Speaker 1: social situations. So I was really scared of standing up.
Speaker 1: Hated standing up. I hated sitting down without having my
Speaker 1: right arm supported because then you know, if my arm
Speaker 1: wasn't supported, I would have to support it and I'd
Speaker 1: get really sore. So this is way more of like
Speaker 1: a central pattern. And did it impact your cricket amazingly?
Speaker 1: Not really incredibly, And I think why it didn't is
Speaker 1: because I was distracted. So I knew that there were
Speaker 1: times where it was there, and it's when I was
Speaker 1: just doing everyday normal stuff where this thing was taking
Speaker 1: control of me. So it was pretty much every thought,
Speaker 1: every second of the day. It felt like I was
Speaker 1: thinking about this right side, like my shoulder, my body,
Speaker 1: and I was worried about like, Okay, what position can
Speaker 1: I put it in when'sick? And I get saw why,
Speaker 1: always trying to work out why is it happening, How
Speaker 1: is it happening? Trying to figure out these patterns. All
Speaker 1: the time I'm doing that, I'm kind of reinforcing it
Speaker 1: as I've learned now. And it just felt like it
Speaker 1: had total control over me and was dictating everything that
Speaker 1: I did, and that through over nine years, got to
Speaker 1: the point where it was totally unbearable up until about
Speaker 1: six months ago where I had to do something about
Speaker 1: it because I couldn't do anything. I had no brain
Speaker 1: capacity left to do anything that I wanted to do.
Speaker 1: Felt like my brain had just total control over me,
Speaker 1: like I was being dictated to by something else. I
Speaker 1: started speaking to an amazing man. His name's Laurama Mosley
Speaker 1: and he's the leading pain scientist. I haven't done him
Speaker 1: justice there.
Speaker 3: But he's I think fancy letters after.
Speaker 1: His name, oh the alphabet. He's the king in my eyes.
Speaker 1: He's the smartest person I've ever spoken to. And we
Speaker 1: are starting to work through and learn about what has
Speaker 1: been happening and trying to undo that. So I've got
Speaker 1: a far better understand of what happened, what has been happening,
Speaker 1: and my way forward from that. It's really hard, probably
Speaker 1: for anyone to understand unless people have gone through chronic
Speaker 1: pain themselves and.
Speaker 3: The relationship between physical and psychological pain.
Speaker 1: I guess absolutely. It's so confusing.
Speaker 3: How big was it for somebody to reassure you that
Speaker 3: it's a real thing.
Speaker 1: It was huge because I thought I was when Bananas,
Speaker 1: I had a million theories in my head for what
Speaker 1: was going on.
Speaker 3: Do you think the validation is almost what has made
Speaker 3: you feel a lot better in the last six to
Speaker 3: nine months.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, absolutely, learning that there is actually a
Speaker 1: way forward. Chronic pain kills people, so people commit suicide
Speaker 1: a lot because people see no way out from it.
Speaker 1: It controls them and they live a life that is uncomfortable,
Speaker 1: and they see their future as being way more uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: And that's how I've felt. But now I know that
Speaker 1: there's actually things you can do to reverse those effects
Speaker 1: a lot, and the first step comes with education. That
Speaker 1: is the most important tool, learning about something, learning about
Speaker 1: what it really is you're feeling, getting an understanding for it.
Speaker 1: And then also in conjunction with Lorima, I was speaking
Speaker 1: to Loydi and learning how to be present again and
Speaker 1: also to combat the anxiety that I was feeling that
Speaker 1: was crippling try not to avoid it, respect it, sit
Speaker 1: with it, understand it, and let it pass naturally. And
Speaker 1: I think kind of the essence of being present trying
Speaker 1: to have thoughts, not force them away, but just letting
Speaker 1: them come and go as.
Speaker 3: They are, Acknowledge them, but don't dwell on it.
Speaker 1: Absolutely yeah, And I think it comes back to the
Speaker 1: point of have thoughts, but don't be had by your thoughts,
Speaker 1: where I was very much the other way around, and
Speaker 1: that was where we came to the concept of management
Speaker 1: and not control.
Speaker 3: Living with something yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And we would have a catch up each Thursday
Speaker 1: pretty much through COVID. It helped me a hell of
Speaker 1: a lot. Like I've written down a lot of stuff here.
Speaker 3: So how are you feeling now?
Speaker 1: I feel like I have a path forward every moment.
Speaker 1: Happiness is absolutely not my end goal, because I don't
Speaker 1: think that exists. But to enjoy being here, enjoy present moment,
Speaker 1: being able to give more of myself, That's what I'm after.
Speaker 1: Being able to give my best self as much as
Speaker 1: I can. I think that's what I'm after, and that's
Speaker 1: what I've been able to do recently, really really well.
Speaker 1: And I think it's reflected quite a lot in my
Speaker 1: cricket because I'm out there and I'm having fun and
Speaker 1: I'm feeling like a kid again with this new sort
Speaker 1: of energy. Because I've got energy to give. I have
Speaker 1: a lot of optimism and I'm very lucky because I've
Speaker 1: got a lot of people who want to help and
Speaker 1: have helped me. People I have to mention Nick Jones,
Speaker 1: the physio at the Whacker, Angie Bain, doctor Tom Hill
Speaker 1: from the Whacker, Lauren and Moseley, Michael Lloyd. Those people
Speaker 1: are you know, without them, this would probably look very
Speaker 1: very different. And my family and my fiance Maddie. The
Speaker 1: great lesson is that they've always been there. You just
Speaker 1: have to be willing to ask for help. You have
Speaker 1: to be willing to let yourself be vulnerable. You have
Speaker 1: to be honest tell people that there is something wrong
Speaker 1: and you will be so surprised at the overwhelmingly positive
Speaker 1: and caring and loving response you're going to get from them.
Speaker 1: And you never know who they're going to get you
Speaker 1: to speak to, but they might change your life, and
Speaker 1: that certainly happened for me.
Speaker 3: Is talking about it now part of that process for.
Speaker 1: You definitely, Like I'm really scared of what people are
Speaker 1: going to think of this, to be honest, and that's okay. Ah,
Speaker 1: it's a bit scary. It makes me a bit anxious.
Speaker 3: What scares you the most?
Speaker 1: I don't know that. I don't know. Judgment, probably people
Speaker 1: probably just not understanding where I'm coming from, people being
Speaker 1: maybe a bit confused, and then people worrying ultimiliar about me.
Speaker 1: And that's I've said many times that I never wanted that,
Speaker 1: But I think I'm really comfortable with who I am,
Speaker 1: the support I've got around me, so I know I'm
Speaker 1: going to be fine.
Speaker 3: And when you've heard cricketers like Glenn Max Sol, Moses Henriquez, yeah,
Speaker 3: they's got to speak publicly. Has it empowered you?
Speaker 1: Absolutely? I'd spoken a little bit about it, but I've
Speaker 1: never been really honest because I really just wanted to
Speaker 1: avoid it. So to talk like this is scary, a
Speaker 1: bit liberating, and I hope that it empowers people the
Speaker 1: same way that other people's stories have empowered me, Because
Speaker 1: there could be someone out there who feels really crap,
Speaker 1: who feels really sad, who feels very anxious, who feels
Speaker 1: very lost, who doesn't see a way out, who doesn't
Speaker 1: know that there are people who want to help. If
Speaker 1: this could help anyone, that's a huge win.
Speaker 3: Finally, how do you feel about cricket? In amongst all
Speaker 3: of this.
Speaker 1: Cricket has been the one thing that's always been there.
Speaker 1: There's a photo of me when I was two and
Speaker 1: my grandma throwing me balls at my mum's hockey shin
Speaker 1: pads on and with this little yellow cricket bat. So
Speaker 1: it's something that's been in my life for as long
Speaker 1: as I can remember. It has taught me so many lessons,
Speaker 1: given me so many friends, allowed me to travel the world,
Speaker 1: see things that I never thought i'd see, meet people
Speaker 1: I never thought i'd meet. It's changed my life and
Speaker 1: it's brought me to you on this podcast as well.
Speaker 3: So I wanted to make the list.
Speaker 1: And how I'm feeling about actually playing right now is
Speaker 1: so good. I'm loving playing for Australia. I think I've
Speaker 1: got to that point where I have the self belief
Speaker 1: now that I belong at that level where it feels
Speaker 1: like I'm going out there and I'm playing. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm just playing like I was when I played with
Speaker 1: Will and War's growing up in the backyard. I'm not
Speaker 1: getting overawed by the occasion. I'm just going out and
Speaker 1: competing and I'm doing my absolute best, and I'm just enjoying,
Speaker 1: entertaining and hopefully bring in some joy to some people
Speaker 1: in doing that. And I want to make the most
Speaker 1: of it because it's not going to I'm not going
Speaker 1: to be able to play forever.
Speaker 3: Thank you, smiling that it's over.
Speaker 1: I'm really happiness. Thank you.
Speaker 3: I appreciate it. I've no doubt it's going to help people.
Speaker 3: I appreciate you being so honest, and I look forward
Speaker 3: to watching that smile on many a cricket field for
Speaker 3: many years to come, at many different levels. So whatever
Speaker 3: that is, whether it's limited overs or Test cricket or
Speaker 3: first class, it's been a joy watching you and hopefully
Speaker 3: there's plenty more to come.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much, theirs. I think what you're doing is
Speaker 1: so important, giving people a platform to speak openly, to
Speaker 1: be heard, but then also allowing other people to hear
Speaker 1: that there's someone out there that's going to listen to
Speaker 1: some of the stories on your podcast, be it this
Speaker 1: one or the ones that have already happened, or the
Speaker 1: ones that will happen in the future, and you could
Speaker 1: change their life. So you're doing wonderful things.
Speaker 2: Thank you, thanks, it's good time, Thanks for listening to
Speaker 2: this episode of Ordinarily Speaking, and thanks again to ashton
Speaker 2: Agar for his candor as well as his kind words.
Speaker 3: Please remember if this episode was triggering for you, Lifeline
Speaker 3: and Beyond Blue are just a couple of places you
Speaker 3: can go if you want to get in touch at
Speaker 3: Ordinarily Underscore Speaking, on Instagram or on Twitter at Narrowly
Speaker 3: Underscore Meadows. A new episode will drop on Wednesday.
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