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Speaker 1: Now, yesterday you would have heard on the show that

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Speaker 1: we had spoken quite a bit about school counselors and

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Speaker 1: education does continue to remain in the spotlight in the territory,

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Speaker 1: that Secondary School review recommending middle schools be scrapped, and

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Speaker 1: as I said, those school counselors. Now we learned yesterday

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Speaker 1: that only sixteen of the thirty are actually filled as

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Speaker 1: I understand it.

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Speaker 2: Now joining me on the line.

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Speaker 1: For their perspective is the NT Council of Government Schools

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Speaker 1: President Tabby Fudge.

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Speaker 2: Good morning to you, Tabby.

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Speaker 3: Good morning Katie, and good morning to your listener.

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Speaker 2: Great to speak to you this morning. Tabby.

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Speaker 1: Can I ask you first, what's your reaction to the

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Speaker 1: government's decision to phase out middle school in the territory.

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Speaker 3: I think the review has found exactly what everybody has

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Speaker 3: known and has been talking about pretty much since the

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Speaker 3: implementation of middle school is that it hasn't delivered the

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Speaker 3: hoped for results, as in positive outcomes for students, and

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Speaker 3: the review clearly articulates that and has recommended that we

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Speaker 3: have comprehensive schools across the Northern Territory, which is in

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Speaker 3: line with what teachers want and I mean obviously this.

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Speaker 3: Most students in the Northern Territory are going through a

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Speaker 3: middle school then talk to a senior school system. But

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Speaker 3: you know, it's much better when you've got a comprehensive

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Speaker 3: school because then you don't have that extra transition point

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Speaker 3: because we know the data tells us that each and

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Speaker 3: every transition point we have, that's when we have drop

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Speaker 3: off where you know, students will disengage from their education.

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Speaker 1: And so Tabby, do you think that there's going to

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Speaker 1: be any impacts on students that could be negative or

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Speaker 1: do you think that these is actually going to be

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Speaker 1: quite a positive thing for our students.

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Speaker 3: I think it'll be a really positive thing for the

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Speaker 3: students going back to a comprehensive model because as you know,

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Speaker 3: as we just said that the review has really found

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Speaker 3: that it hasn't delivered on the hoped for outcomes, and

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Speaker 3: going back to that comprehensive model will will improve a

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Speaker 3: lot of the areas for both students and teachers. You know,

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Speaker 3: we've heard teachers talking about you know, that progression for

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Speaker 3: their you know, for their career and development, you know,

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Speaker 3: building their levels of expertise. You know, we have students

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Speaker 3: who are in a school for six years rather than

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Speaker 3: three years, so the relationships that they build with those

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Speaker 3: teachers are stronger. There's more adults in that school that

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Speaker 3: know that student. It's just better all the way around.

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Speaker 1: Now, Tabby, I mean, are there going to be concerns

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Speaker 1: when it comes to infrastructure. I know you sort of

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Speaker 1: touched on it, but you know, do you think that

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Speaker 1: we're going to need to sort of be moving things

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Speaker 1: or it sort of sounds as all the campuses that

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Speaker 1: we've got we can continue to use, but it will

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Speaker 1: be more integrated.

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Speaker 3: I think absolutely. Of course we'll be using the existing

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Speaker 3: infrastructure and it will provide a more integrated model as

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Speaker 3: you did. I mean, for a primo example would be

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Speaker 3: Palmerston Middle and seeing his school. We've got two schools

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Speaker 3: there that have one principle traveling five kilometers backwards and

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Speaker 3: forwards between the two campuses, so it'll be much better

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Speaker 3: and if we if we look at Palmerston alone. You know,

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Speaker 3: Palmerston used to be the biggest growing city in Australia.

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure if that still is the case, but

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Speaker 3: it's definitely the fastest growing population in the Northern Territory

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Speaker 3: and you know it's going to need those two you know,

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Speaker 3: as comprehensive schools as that population keeps growing, and possibly

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Speaker 3: even another one, who knows what's going to happen into

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Speaker 3: the future. But it's just a much better model, you know,

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Speaker 3: don't We don't need more transition transitional phases for our children.

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Speaker 3: And going from even primary into middle school is a

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Speaker 3: big leap in itself. It's a totally different, you know,

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Speaker 3: school structure in a lot of ways. You know, you

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Speaker 3: don't have that one teacher in the classroom we see

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Speaker 3: all day every day. You're going from class to class

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Speaker 3: to class, Yeah, with different teachers at all the time.

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Speaker 3: So you know it'll be much better.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think we all are hoping so and hoping

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Speaker 1: that it is going to be a move in the

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Speaker 1: right direction. Tabby's something I do want to ask about, though,

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Speaker 1: is something that you and I spoke about quite extensively

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Speaker 1: actually last year, and I spoke to a number of

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Speaker 1: students about it last year as well, and that is

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Speaker 1: school counselors. And I've once again had students get in

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Speaker 1: contact with me this year raising concerns that they don't

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Speaker 1: feel as though there's enough support or you know, that

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Speaker 1: continued sort of care with regards to those school counselors.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell me do you think that the new

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Speaker 1: system that we're working from at the moment is working.

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Speaker 1: What's feedback that you're receiving.

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Speaker 3: The triage model that the Department of Education has implemented

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Speaker 3: is definitely not working. The very fact that you're having

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Speaker 3: students reaching out to you in desperation because they're not

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Speaker 3: able to get the services that they desperately require, is

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Speaker 3: you know, a clear signal that I've had once again,

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Speaker 3: I've had counselors starting to reach out to me as

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Speaker 3: they were last year, expressing their horror and concern of

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Speaker 3: this new triange model. You know, it's a system that

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Speaker 3: is simply not working. You know, we've gone from a

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Speaker 3: system that was working so well for so many decades.

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Speaker 3: You know, each middle and seeing the school had a counselor.

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Speaker 3: They were there all day, every day. They were part

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Speaker 3: of the school community. They were there for the students.

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Speaker 3: They were able to talk to them whenever the students

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Speaker 3: wanted to. Because the students could just you know, walk

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Speaker 3: up to the counselor's office or walk up to them

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Speaker 3: in the school yard and talk to them. The councilor

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Speaker 3: could talk to families. They were there building relationships all

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Speaker 3: day every day because they were part of the fabric

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Speaker 3: of that school community. You know, they were employed, full

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Speaker 3: time members of the school. And this is what parents

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Speaker 3: are asking int Cogzo to go forward and advocate for.

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Speaker 3: And this is what we are advocating because this is

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Speaker 3: what parents and students want and need. And the strange

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Speaker 3: thing is, though, Katie, this is also what government wants

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Speaker 3: as well. You know, each of the last few education

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Speaker 3: ministers that we've had, including the current Education Minister Monahan,

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Speaker 3: he wants counselors in schools. This is what everybody is asking. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: they want counselors back in schools. Everyone knows that the

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Speaker 3: triage model that the Department of Education is adopted from

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Speaker 3: down South is not working, see Tabby.

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Speaker 1: Is it just a matter of us not being able

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Speaker 1: to fill those roles? I mean when we spoke to

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Speaker 1: the department yesterday, they said that there's thirty positions, there's

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Speaker 1: sixteen of them currently filled, so there's definitely a shortfall.

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Speaker 1: I mean, is it a situation here where we've just

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Speaker 1: got a shortfall across the nation, like with those school

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Speaker 1: counselors or with those with those different roles. So we're

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Speaker 1: actually not able to go back to the model that

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Speaker 1: we used to have.

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Speaker 3: Counselors a choosing to leave the Department of Education because

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Speaker 3: they feel that they can't work in the environment that

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Speaker 3: they need to to offer the best services to their

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Speaker 3: school communities, as in their students. I had a counsel

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Speaker 3: of contact me about a month ago, and you know,

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Speaker 3: in desperation, just saying I assume you've heard the latest

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Speaker 3: that school counselors now require written permission from the young

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Speaker 3: person's parents before they will provide counseling or students who's

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Speaker 3: totally unworkable as students, those fifteen eighteen age group will

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Speaker 3: not want this and will not disclose and what this

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Speaker 3: is about, like the particularly concerning part of this. Imagine

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Speaker 3: you're a you know, a middle school student, a high

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Speaker 3: school student of Primarcool, you know, and you've got domestic

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Speaker 3: violence going on at home, or you've got some other

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Speaker 3: kind of really difficult situation happening at home, and you're

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Speaker 3: then expected to take a permission form home for those

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Speaker 3: people to sign it and bring it back to school.

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Speaker 2: I had not thought of.

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Speaker 3: It, universe, is you know, is this a workable situation?

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Speaker 3: It absolutely is not.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like it.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: The thing that's really difficult as well is you're talking

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Speaker 1: about these positions within schools where if kids are comfortable

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Speaker 1: going to them and seeking that help from them, Like,

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Speaker 1: that's actually the ideal situation that we as parents want,

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Speaker 1: right Like, if your kids are going through a hard

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Speaker 1: patch and they don't feel like they can talk to

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Speaker 1: their parents or they want to speak to somebody else,

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Speaker 1: the ideal thing is that they are speaking to someone

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Speaker 1: you know, and that they're speaking to someone who's who's trustable,

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Speaker 1: who is you know, like a counselor is the ideal person.

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Speaker 1: So if kids are actually wanting to do that, we're

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Speaker 1: not able to provide that to them.

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Speaker 2: That's actually quite heartbreaking.

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Speaker 3: It is. It is absolutely devastating, Katie. It's devastating that

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Speaker 3: our children are reaching out asking for the help that

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Speaker 3: they once had access to and that they are now losing.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's not like these counselors are disappearing off

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Speaker 3: the face of the earth. They're still being counselors, but

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Speaker 3: they're choosing to do it in different departments, or they're

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Speaker 3: choosing to do it privately because they can no longer

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Speaker 3: do it under the Department of Education's current triage.

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Speaker 2: Model, Tabbi, can I just ask you really quickly?

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Speaker 1: I mean, have we had situations throughout the beginning of

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Speaker 1: this year where kids or young people have been in

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Speaker 1: distr and not actually able to see somebody Due to

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Speaker 1: this triage model?

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Speaker 3: I would imagine we would absolutely have been having that

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Speaker 3: situation happening, probably on a daily basis. You know, we

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Speaker 3: know that, you know, some of the schools on the

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Speaker 3: current you know, rotational system that the department have implemented.

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Speaker 3: You know, some of these schools are saying a council

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Speaker 3: on nine days out of five weeks. And these are

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Speaker 3: not consecutive days therese are you know, a day or

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Speaker 3: two a week kind of thing. You know, that's not

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Speaker 3: time to build up a rapport and a relationship and

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Speaker 3: become part of that school community. It's just not time

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Speaker 3: for that. And you know, and how do you fit

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Speaker 3: you know, if you've got a school of you know,

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Speaker 3: eight hundred students, you know, how do you decide who

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Speaker 3: is in most need of your time? You know, it

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Speaker 3: puts the counselor in in a horrible position as well.

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Speaker 3: You know, counselors they want to help students. They want

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Speaker 3: to be there, they want to be part of that

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Speaker 3: school unity. They want to develop those relations ships and

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Speaker 3: be that trusted adult that these students can come to.

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Speaker 3: And you know that's just not possible under this model.

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Speaker 3: You can not have a model. I mean, you've got

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Speaker 3: to be able to develop that relationship and report. You've

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Speaker 3: got to become that trusted adult.

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Speaker 1: Yep, spot on, Tabby Fudge, I am going to have

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Speaker 1: to leave it there. I always appreciate your time. Thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for speaking with me. And look, if

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Speaker 1: there is any further development on this school counselor situation

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Speaker 1: or anything that you reckon I need to be aware of,

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Speaker 1: please do keep in contact with me and let me know.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, Katie, thank you, thank you time and highlighting this

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Speaker 3: incredibly important issue.

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Speaker 1: Will have children, And do you know what, Tabby like,

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Speaker 1: I think when we get to a point where I've

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Speaker 1: got young people contacting me like, that's.

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Speaker 2: A huge thing, right, It's a huge.

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Speaker 1: Thing for teenage teenagers to contact me because they're worried

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Speaker 1: about it. So I think it is something that we've

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Speaker 1: got to take.

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Speaker 3: No this off, Absolutely, we do. We have to listen

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Speaker 3: to our children. You know, if we want to help them,

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Speaker 3: and if we want to see a community moving in

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Speaker 3: the right direction, we need to listen to our children.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Tabby, thank you so much for your time this morning.

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Speaker 2: Greatly appreciate it.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Katie, thank you for having you too,