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Speaker 1: Hello, It's Amanda Keller here. I've started a new podcast

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Speaker 1: with my best friend, Anita McGregor. Anita has a real job.

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Speaker 1: Who knew, She's a forensic psychologist. She's sometimes intelligent, well

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Speaker 1: she is most of the time. We spend a lot

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Speaker 1: of our weekends together, walking my dog. We're having a

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Speaker 1: glass of wine, We're having a thousand cups of tea.

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Speaker 1: But we talk about everything. Sometimes we're smart, sometimes we're ridiculous.

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Speaker 1: But we thought that the things that we discuss are

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Speaker 1: probably the things that everyone else is talking about too.

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Speaker 1: Here's a little taste of what you can expect. I'll

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Speaker 1: see you at the end. Well. Hello, I'm Amanda Keller.

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Speaker 1: You might know me from well various media outlets.

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Speaker 2: TV radio.

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Speaker 1: I do the Breakfast Show with Jonesy on WSFM. But

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Speaker 1: I thought i'd like to introduce you to a friend

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Speaker 1: of mine called Anita McGregor, my best friend in the

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Speaker 1: whole damn universe, and we thought we'd like to do

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Speaker 1: a podcast together. Hello Anita, Hello, a children's show together.

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Speaker 1: This is weird. Are sitting opposite a table normally when

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Speaker 1: we're chadding, we're walking my dog. We're having a glass

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Speaker 1: of wine. Somewhere we're making a gazillion cups of tea.

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Speaker 2: That is our lives.

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Speaker 1: That's our lives. I have this kind of media frivolous job.

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Speaker 1: You have a grown up job. What is it you

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Speaker 1: do again?

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Speaker 2: I am a forensic psychologist.

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Speaker 1: And when people hear forensics, do they assume that you're

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Speaker 1: digging up bodies in some kind of research facility.

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Speaker 2: Either that or they think that I'm interviewing dead people,

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Speaker 2: neither of which is actually true.

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Speaker 1: Hopefully not today. Let's check. That's so far, so good,

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Speaker 1: so good. So what actually is a forensic psychologist?

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Speaker 2: So forensic means in the forum, So anything to do

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Speaker 2: with the legal system. So for civil or criminal issues,

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Speaker 2: we see offenders, we see victim I've worked with police

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Speaker 2: in Canada lots and lots of things, so anything really

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Speaker 2: to do with the court system.

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Speaker 1: But at the moment you're working in Australia, you have

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Speaker 1: an unusual Australian accent. Let's just say, I'll admit that.

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Speaker 1: So you've been here from Canada for how.

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Speaker 2: Long seventeen years? And strangely enough I met you probably

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Speaker 2: in the first month or so of coming to Australia.

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Speaker 1: When you first saw me though it was unusual, wasn't it?

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Speaker 1: It was very I wasn't drinking.

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Speaker 2: That was very unusual, let me tell you, no, it was.

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Speaker 2: It was what became a mutual friend of ours, Jackie,

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Speaker 2: who asked me to go and watch a Dancing with

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Speaker 2: the Stars episode. And I didn't know what Dancing with

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Speaker 2: the Stars was. I didn't know who you were, I

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Speaker 2: didn't know anybody in Australia.

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Speaker 1: A dream, oh, I dream of living like that.

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Speaker 2: It was crazy. So went over there and Jackie was

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Speaker 2: dressed in a ballroom gown made out of drapes, and

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Speaker 2: she was so was I. But it was it was

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Speaker 2: extraordinary in meeting you because I had no context for it.

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Speaker 2: I had no context about the Australian situation, you know,

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Speaker 2: who was who and all those kinds of things. So

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Speaker 2: it was a lovely, great time to get to know you,

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Speaker 2: and and really we have been friends since then.

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Speaker 1: Forged at the hip we really are. So that's kind

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Speaker 1: of who we are and our history. But often when

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Speaker 1: we're walking and we're talking about things, we talk about

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Speaker 1: things that matter in our lives, and we talk about

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Speaker 1: silly things we've read during the week, or things we've watched,

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Speaker 1: or things we've read, and we thought, why don't we

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Speaker 1: share that with everyone, because I reckon everyone else is

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Speaker 1: going through the same kind of stuff.

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Speaker 2: Just as confused as we are.

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Speaker 1: Just as confused as we are. Initially I wanted to

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Speaker 1: call this Tea in Therapy. I'd provide the tea and

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Speaker 1: you'd provide the therapy. But it was thought that maybe

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Speaker 1: people might think it's an actual therapy show. And as

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Speaker 1: you'll see there certainly won't be that far from it.

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Speaker 1: So hello, and welcome to double a chattery.

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Speaker 2: Welcome.

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Speaker 1: I read an article in New York newspaper the other

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Speaker 1: day and it was about a new bookshop and it

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Speaker 1: was called The Ripped Bodice Tell me more, I will

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Speaker 1: anea look at what I'm wearing right now and more.

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Speaker 1: And The Ripped Bodice is a new bookshop that is

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Speaker 1: all about romance novels. And the thing that struck me

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Speaker 1: was that the q to go into their big opening

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Speaker 1: day went all the way around the block. And it's

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Speaker 1: set in the articles that more women than ever are

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Speaker 1: reading romance based books in a way that many people

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Speaker 1: aren't even aware that they're romance novels. But for example,

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Speaker 1: last year there was a fifty two point four four

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Speaker 1: percent increase in romance novels in comparison to other fiction categories,

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Speaker 1: which were down by over ten percent. So this is

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Speaker 1: the one category that's going through the roof. A list

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Speaker 1: of eight of the fifteen books on the current New

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Speaker 1: York Times Paperback bestseller list are romantic fiction. Virgin River,

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Speaker 1: for example, the TV series Bridgeton almost their giant Juggernauts

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Speaker 1: might even put Yellowstone on that list.

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Speaker 2: Men in wrangler jeans.

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Speaker 1: In Australia, wrangler jeans were just the daggy jeans at

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Speaker 1: the boys you Knew Water to the school formal In Canada?

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Speaker 1: Were they a bit sexier than that?

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Speaker 2: They're a bit sexier than that. And I lived in Calgary,

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Speaker 2: in Alberta for years, and the Calgary Stampede where there

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Speaker 2: was a whole bunch of men dressed up as cowboys

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Speaker 2: with the cowboy boots and the houtse and the.

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Speaker 1: Course the stampede, they did a little bit.

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Speaker 2: There's some nose, I candy.

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Speaker 1: Let me just this is the thing, and we're all

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Speaker 1: too scared to say that we like it. I think

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Speaker 1: because one of the women she was listed in or

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Speaker 1: there was quoted in this article said, and she's a

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Speaker 1: criminal defense lawyer. She said, she's into cowboy romance. She said,

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Speaker 1: I grew up in Brooklyn. But there's something about being

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Speaker 1: totally transported, something about that wide open space, a man

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Speaker 1: riding on a horseback, a woman falling from him. I'm

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Speaker 1: a sucker for that. And that is Yellowstone.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, And when you think about.

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Speaker 1: Even like Jane Austen, she was probably or she is

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Speaker 1: a romance writer, but because it was about satire, and

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Speaker 1: because she used clever language, and she had an opinion

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Speaker 1: about things that was seen as quality, that was literature,

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Speaker 1: literature and which it is. But if you put a

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Speaker 1: vampire in there instead of mister Darcy, it's chick lit

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Speaker 1: and it's a little bit shameful.

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Speaker 2: And a ripped bous on the cover. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

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Speaker 1: So it's interesting, isn't it? Where we are that all

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Speaker 1: this stuff. I've always thought actually that Fifty Shades of

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Speaker 1: Gray was really a Roman because many of Sure, there

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Speaker 1: was a lot of sex in it. I had to

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Speaker 1: reread it many times, but the through line it is

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Speaker 1: like those Jane ere. It's like all those old books

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Speaker 1: that those old books literaly, yes, those things that I

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Speaker 1: think it's it's almost like a young ingenue, a young

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Speaker 1: naive girl catches the eye of a stern, older man

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Speaker 1: and it can she turn him to love her, and

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Speaker 1: you discover at the end he's loved her all along

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Speaker 1: but hasn't been able to show it.

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Speaker 2: It's so attractive, and there's such a recipe to it,

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Speaker 2: isn't it. It's just there's going to be true love,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be challenge, there's going to be lost

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Speaker 2: and gain. It's all those things that happen.

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Speaker 1: It can be overly consuming, and as a psychologist, want

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Speaker 1: to ask you this in the same way that women

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Speaker 1: are threatened by men watching porn, but men will say

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Speaker 1: this has no bearing on real life. If women are

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Speaker 1: obsessed with romans and relationships that are so full on,

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Speaker 1: does that impact on how we actually live or is

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Speaker 1: it the same sort of thing as I know, the

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Speaker 1: difference between real and pornography.

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Speaker 2: I really think that that line is getting so blurred

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Speaker 2: between kind of what we expect in the world. I mean,

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Speaker 2: we've get people on Instagram and Facebook and all those

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Speaker 2: kinds of social media platforms where they're showing this kind

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Speaker 2: of a game where you know, I'm in love and

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Speaker 2: here's my perfect partner, and here's this, and I think

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Speaker 2: it really creates these expectations. And then you look at

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Speaker 2: your partner and he's, you know, the fourth day where

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Speaker 2: he's you know, been glumping around the house and and

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Speaker 2: he hasn't done the chores that you wanted him to do.

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Speaker 2: And it's this and it's that, and it just doesn't

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Speaker 2: match that created expectation that isn't reality.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting. We know it's not reality, but I wonder

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Speaker 1: how damaging it can be because you may not even

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Speaker 1: realize that you're going to bed at seven o'clock to

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Speaker 1: read your romance book and your husband's staying watching TV downstairs,

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Speaker 1: or you shut down your relationship at home because you

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Speaker 1: want to live more in your romance world. Maybe this

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Speaker 1: is what people do when they're playing games online. I've

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Speaker 1: never been a computer person, but that's the same thing.

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Speaker 1: So kind of escaping your real relationships may be Well.

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Speaker 2: It's really interesting that I was reading this book about

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Speaker 2: dopamine and it's this addiction psychiatrist. Her name is Anna Lemke,

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Speaker 2: and fascinating book. I've listened to a couple of podcasts

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Speaker 2: that she's been in and she talked about in the

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Speaker 2: book how she got absolutely addicted to erotica and mostly

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Speaker 2: about vampire romance. Her gateway drug was the Twilight series.

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Speaker 2: But then she said that she got to the point

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Speaker 2: where she was around the house she had medical journals,

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Speaker 2: and inside she had like a little romance novel so

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Speaker 2: that she could go and pretend that she was reading

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Speaker 2: a medical journal and being really smart rather than reading this,

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Speaker 2: you know, crazy romance novel. And that she had gone

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Speaker 2: and she talked about a time where she had gone

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Speaker 2: off for a family function with friends and that she

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Speaker 2: had reclused herself into a little room so that she

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Speaker 2: could just go and read these romance she was reading

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Speaker 2: in between seeing clients. And she was an addiction psychiatrist

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Speaker 2: and didn't realize it, had no kind of recognition that

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Speaker 2: her own behavior was that addictive.

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Speaker 1: So what she had was an addiction. It wasn't just

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Speaker 1: that she was into reading these books. It doesn't have

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Speaker 1: the same physiological effect as it does if you're addicted

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Speaker 1: to alcohols.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely it's I mean, there are some physical things that

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Speaker 2: are different when you're you know, on heroin or fentanyl

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Speaker 2: or whatever, but it really is affecting that dopamine system

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Speaker 2: that we have, and that there is this seesar that

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Speaker 2: we have between pleasure and pain, and that, as you know,

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Speaker 2: we can maybe start with a compulsion to do something

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Speaker 2: or a desire to do something, but when we move

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Speaker 2: into addiction that there tends to be higher tolerance, Like

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Speaker 2: you need more and more to get the same hit.

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Speaker 2: I think you were saying the other day that you'd

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Speaker 2: started rereading parts of a book that you had liked.

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Speaker 1: I've been going through this recently, and I think because

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Speaker 1: I'm in a long term relationship, I've suddenly started to

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Speaker 1: get all hot and bothered. Well, it started with that

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Speaker 1: a book called Romantic Comedy, which has written I think

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Speaker 1: it's Curtis Siddon.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, sit close, guy, Yes, yeah, it's a woman actually,

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Speaker 2: oh yeah, and we've read her for.

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Speaker 1: Book clubs, so it's literally in that good book in

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Speaker 1: that and the book was so fantastic. But what I

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Speaker 1: loved about it it was a woman who worked, for

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Speaker 1: for all intents and purposes, Saturday Night Live. She's a writer,

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Speaker 1: and she watches male writers who look average crack on

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Speaker 1: all the famous stars that come on the show, much younger,

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Speaker 1: much younger, And that constantly happens in that world and

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Speaker 1: she said she's an average looking, smart, funny woman, but

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Speaker 1: that never happens. And then this sort of guy who's

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Speaker 1: been famous for a number of years, this rock star,

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Speaker 1: comes on the show and she feels a thing for him,

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Speaker 1: but can't believe that he'd feel it for her. Then

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Speaker 1: lockdown happens, and they write each other a series of emails.

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Speaker 1: I got so swept up in that, so swept up

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Speaker 1: in the romance of that, I almost found myself googling

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Speaker 1: him to see what his albums were like. He was

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Speaker 1: made up, And then I found myself. When I'd finished

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Speaker 1: the book, I went back and reread it because I

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Speaker 1: wanted that hit again. And then I started watching Outlander,

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Speaker 1: which I started watching ten years ago when it started

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Speaker 1: and didn't watch much of it. I went back recently

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Speaker 1: and started again and got completely consumed. I had the

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Speaker 1: house to myself for a weekend. I watched the entire

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Speaker 1: first series. I ate my meals on a stable table

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Speaker 1: like an old mole in front of the television. MUCH

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Speaker 1: had to attach a drool sponge to my chin for

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Speaker 1: all the drooling I was doing. It was shameful.

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Speaker 2: This was after you had interviewed Sam Hwans and I

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Speaker 2: interviewed him for a movie he'd done, and I thought, Oh,

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Speaker 2: he's nice, And then.

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Speaker 1: I watched that shot and I thought, what a waste

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Speaker 1: of a crush. I wanted to go back and interview

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Speaker 1: him again and somehow viscerally tell him how in love

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Speaker 1: I was. But I was in love with the character

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Speaker 1: he plays, Jamie, and I reckon that even Sam Hwan,

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Speaker 1: who's the actor, can't live up to being Jamie, because

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Speaker 1: Jamie is this character who will defend you to the

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Speaker 1: end of the earth. That's what women seem to want,

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Speaker 1: don't they doesn't matter how liberated we are, We're still

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Speaker 1: going for that protection stuff.

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Speaker 2: I think in our minds we are. I think in

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Speaker 2: reality there are women who are kind of claiming their

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Speaker 2: power and saying no, I don't want that. There is

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Speaker 2: that article about, you know, the Barbie Beyonce Taylors Swift

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Speaker 2: thing that is basically that divorce. Roots are coming up

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Speaker 2: of that because.

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Speaker 1: Women are saying, you know what, I'm finding my feet

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Speaker 1: and I'm not happy with where I am. Oh, it's

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Speaker 1: just exhausting being alive, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: Don't know, worry about myself.

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Speaker 1: If there was an actual guy who spoke to you

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Speaker 1: is the way men speak in books. If you say

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Speaker 1: I love you and they go ditto. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I want you to say I love you till the

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Speaker 1: stars fall out of the sky. I can't breathe again

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Speaker 1: until you're in my arms. If a guy actually spoke

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Speaker 1: to you like that, you go, why do you get

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Speaker 1: off your creep?

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Speaker 2: We would actually be probably texting the police or calling

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Speaker 2: the police and saying, come and get this guy stocking.

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Speaker 1: It's a funny old world, isn't it. That's the kind

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Speaker 1: of thing. So if you'd like to join us, it's

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Speaker 1: called Double a Chattery. Search for Double a Chattery wherever

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Speaker 1: you're listening to this podcast right now. I'll see you there.