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Speaker 1: Well, if you've just joined us.

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Speaker 2: We did reveal on the show throughout the week that

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Speaker 2: was that the Northern Territory Police Association have released their

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Speaker 2: results from their latest member survey. It confirms their members

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Speaker 2: believe the Northern Territory Police Force is critically understaffed and

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Speaker 2: under resourced, and that members feel completely abandoned by the

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Speaker 2: Northern Territory government. Now joining me on the line to

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Speaker 2: tell us more about the survey is the Northern Territory

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Speaker 2: Police Association President Paul McHugh.

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Speaker 3: Good morning, Paul, Yeah, good morning, Katie.

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Speaker 1: How are you not too bad? Paul?

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Speaker 2: In total one thousand, two hundred and two member responses,

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Speaker 2: is that the largest ever survey response you've had? Ay?

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Speaker 2: It is.

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Speaker 3: We Traditionally, you know, when you do a survey of

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Speaker 3: this nature, you always want to reach over fifty percent

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Speaker 3: of your workforce as a return rate. That normally gives

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Speaker 3: you some pretty good data to work with. And the

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Speaker 3: fact we've had seventy four percent of our membership reply

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Speaker 3: to this survey, I think shows you just how they're

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Speaker 3: feeling right now out there.

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Speaker 2: So let's go through the results, Paul. Ninety seven point

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Speaker 2: six percent of respondents do not feel that there are

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Speaker 2: enough police to do what's being asked of them. Is

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Speaker 2: there some detail in terms of what officers said when

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Speaker 2: responding to that question.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the exact same question we asked back last year,

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Speaker 3: about six months ago in our survey, and the result

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Speaker 3: then was around ninety three percent didn't feel they had

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Speaker 3: enough police out there on the road. So the fact

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Speaker 3: that's risen to you know, almost ninety eight percent shows

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Speaker 3: you just how they're feeling. We know, we get direct feedback,

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Speaker 3: of course, into our office almost daily about the struggles

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Speaker 3: to staff the front line. And when you look at

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Speaker 3: the actual questions or only five short questions we asked,

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Speaker 3: and the remaining four questions are all directly impacted on

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Speaker 3: that very first one, and it's all about resourcing. If

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Speaker 3: you don't actually have that right, the remainder of those

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Speaker 3: that come as no surprise to us.

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Speaker 2: All right, So eighty point seven percent rated morale as

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Speaker 2: low or very low.

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Speaker 1: Why do they feel that way?

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Speaker 3: Well, obviously, you know when you're turning up to work

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Speaker 3: and we've got some incredibly dedicated people out there. I mean,

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Speaker 3: we're at a meeting just a couple of days ago

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Speaker 3: with forty or fifty officers and they are really putting

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Speaker 3: in everything. They're giving one hundred and ten percent every day.

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Speaker 3: But when they turn up to work and they are

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Speaker 3: the only van on shift, or they just feel like

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Speaker 3: they're carrying twenty or thirty investigations, they just can't provide

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Speaker 3: the service to those people who are victims of crime

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Speaker 3: that they really want to because they just simply don't

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Speaker 3: have the numbers. It really affects how you feel. I mean,

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Speaker 3: they go to work and they want to do their

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Speaker 3: very best, but when they don't have the you know,

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Speaker 3: the numbers to actually support them, that really affects them

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Speaker 3: around and of course they just get quite dejected because

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Speaker 3: they're just simply turning up and always being the ones

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Speaker 3: on duty without sufficient support.

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Speaker 2: Ninety six point seven percent of officers are saying they do

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Speaker 2: not feel supported by the Northern Territory government. Why are

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Speaker 2: they not feeling supported by the government at this point?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think there's a couple of factors that

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Speaker 3: play there, and of course none more so than you know,

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Speaker 3: they consider what they've done for government, particularly over the

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Speaker 3: last three years. But of course every single day, you know,

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Speaker 3: they go over and above. We've seen some horrific assaults

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Speaker 3: on our members recently about what they do to put

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Speaker 3: their body on the line on behalf of the government.

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Speaker 3: So when the government are dragging the chain on things

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Speaker 3: like the pay deal, and obviously when they feel like

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Speaker 3: they just simply need more police and there's no police

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Speaker 3: to give, they feel let down of course by the government.

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Speaker 3: The government ultimately is responsible for the budget and the

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Speaker 3: funding of these numbers, and they just feel let down

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Speaker 3: because of those reasons.

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Speaker 2: Well, and then obviously eighty six point eight percent support

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Speaker 2: a work to Rule industrial campaign. What exactly does that mean, Pall.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's very much specific to our pay deal, and

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Speaker 3: obviously it's the last thing we want to do and

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Speaker 3: try and ask our members to do. But what that

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Speaker 3: just simply means is it's a clear message to government

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Speaker 3: if they don't want to come to the table and

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Speaker 3: don't want to really discuss this pay deal and get

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Speaker 3: it sorted. Our members have very much made it clear

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Speaker 3: to us that they support a work to raw and

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Speaker 3: that simply means they will go in and they will

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Speaker 3: do their job absolutely one hundred percent to the fullest.

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Speaker 3: But we're talking about things, I mean, you would be

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Speaker 3: amazed at just how many times a shift is covered

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Speaker 3: by overtime. When you see a van driving around on

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Speaker 3: the street, quite often those people are working a double

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Speaker 3: shift or they've come in on their day off to

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Speaker 3: do that shift. That is simply not sustainable policing. It's

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Speaker 3: not fair on the organization and the commissioner that's trying

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Speaker 3: to run the organization. It means there's not enough police.

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Speaker 3: So of course they want to send a clear message

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Speaker 3: to government. This is how they're feeling, and that is

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Speaker 3: evidence that they're all willing to do it.

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Speaker 2: Eighty five point three percent of those respondents have considered

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Speaker 2: exit strategy from the Northern Territory Police Force in the

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Speaker 2: last six to twelve months.

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Speaker 1: This is quite unbelievably.

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Speaker 3: I think that's probably one of the most you know,

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Speaker 3: I guess, startling results out of this survey. When you

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Speaker 3: look at the attrition rate for Northern Territory Police traditionally

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Speaker 3: are the last ten years of somewhere, it's sat somewhere

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Speaker 3: between that five and four and five percent mark, and

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Speaker 3: that's that's fairly well average across most states in Australia,

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Speaker 3: but certainly the last two years, particularly the twenty one

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Speaker 3: to twenty two year it's gone from four percent to

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Speaker 3: eight point five percent and then to ten point five percent.

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Speaker 3: So you can actually see that dramatic rise in the

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Speaker 3: last two or three years and those results that we've

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Speaker 3: obviously released today. To think about the number of police

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Speaker 3: a year, number of police that have actually considered looking

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Speaker 3: at alternate work, I mean, that's directly reflective, of course,

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Speaker 3: in the way they're feeling by turning up to work

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Speaker 3: not having enough staff to do the job. They just

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Speaker 3: simply had enough and they're looking elsewhere, which is obviously

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Speaker 3: the last thing we need.

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Speaker 1: Paul.

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Speaker 2: This is not the first time that we've had startling

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Speaker 2: results from a server. I mean, as you just touched on,

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Speaker 2: not so long ago, we had a survey that told

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Speaker 2: an incredibly similar story. It's clear to me, based on

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Speaker 2: the results that have come out today that not a

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Speaker 2: lot has changed since that last survey was released.

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Speaker 3: No, I think that's probably a really important point. I mean,

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Speaker 3: we released results I think in about August of last year.

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Speaker 3: Certainly the points around the actual numbers in terms of

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Speaker 3: ninety plus percent saying there's not and these other people

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Speaker 3: on the ground that are doing the job. So it's

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Speaker 3: fine to say we're investing more than ever before, and

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Speaker 3: we are obviously trying to recruit as many as we

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Speaker 3: possibly can, So there's no issue there, but the fact

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Speaker 3: we've got so many who have left in the last

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Speaker 3: two years and so many looking to leave. I think

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Speaker 3: that the real concern for us is we've provided this

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Speaker 3: evidence last year and nothing seems to have change, and

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Speaker 3: in fact the results say it's getting worse. Coupled that, Katie,

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Speaker 3: with interstate jurisdictions actively targeting our officers, and of course

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Speaker 3: Queensland announcing yesterday they've done a deal with government to

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Speaker 3: recruit five hundred overseas police to actually come and work

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Speaker 3: in the Queensland Police Service. That's how That's the lengths

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Speaker 3: other organizations and governments are going to to attract people,

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Speaker 3: and we are behind the April without a doubt. Paul.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's obviously a stating here as we've gone

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Speaker 2: through about people within the force, those officers not feeling

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Speaker 2: supported by the Northern Territory government. But look, it would

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Speaker 2: be remiss of me not to ask why there wasn't

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Speaker 2: a question in there about whether officers support the commissioner

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Speaker 2: and executives.

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Speaker 3: Well, ultimately, I don't think it's necessary. I mean last

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Speaker 3: year we provided that question to the membership, they had

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Speaker 3: their say. You know the results were were there last

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Speaker 3: year in August. This is very much about the people

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Speaker 3: that can actually make a difference in terms of the funding.

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Speaker 3: We know the funding and the numbers have not met

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Speaker 3: demand for some years and that is a government responsibility. Now. Now,

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Speaker 3: I'm not here to criticize the Commissioner today, I'm here

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Speaker 3: to criticize a government who haven't over the last six

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Speaker 3: years invested heavily enough in making sure we're ahead of

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Speaker 3: the game. Remember the year prior to the last election,

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Speaker 3: they did not recruit one constable for the entire year. Now,

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Speaker 3: that is no one else's responsibility but government, and that

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Speaker 3: fairly and squarely falls on their shoulders, and our members

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Speaker 3: are saying to them, enough is enough. Regardless of who's

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Speaker 3: leading the organization, regardless if it's Commissioner Chalker or when

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Speaker 3: it was Commissioner Kershaw mc roberts, it is ultimately the

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Speaker 3: responsibility of government to make sure there's enough funding to

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Speaker 3: have the police required to do the job.

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Speaker 2: So do the Police Association have confidence in the Northern

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Speaker 2: Territory government at the moment and the minister.

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Speaker 3: We'll look at the moment. I mean, I do have

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Speaker 3: a good relationship with the Minister. We do talk reagularly,

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Speaker 3: but ultimately actions speak loud of the words, don't they.

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Speaker 3: And ultimately it's our members who are saying, regardless of

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Speaker 3: what the government is saying and assuring our membership, they're

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Speaker 3: doing and we know they're recruiting, and we know they're

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Speaker 3: keeping up or trying to keep up with attrition, but

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Speaker 3: ultimately that seems to be not enough. They are under

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Speaker 3: attack out there on the front line. The changes that

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Speaker 3: government have made in terms of legislation around the youth bail,

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Speaker 3: around the Liquor Act, you know, a whole range of

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Speaker 3: things have directly impacted their ability to do the job.

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Speaker 3: And the increased numbers have not kept up with that requirement.

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Speaker 2: All right, I'm sure that there'll be police officers listening

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Speaker 2: this morning who you know, well who are either feeling

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Speaker 2: really you know, like they're probably feeling really passionately that

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Speaker 2: they either think the Minister's doing a great job or not,

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Speaker 2: or that you know, they think the Commission is doing a.

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Speaker 1: Great job or not.

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Speaker 2: But what are the rank and files saying at the

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Speaker 2: moment Paul, because look, to me, there seems to be

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Speaker 2: a breakdown somewhere. I don't know exactly where it is,

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Speaker 2: but for our officers to be coming out in huge

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Speaker 2: numbers and telling you what they are telling you in

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Speaker 2: this survey, something is not working.

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Speaker 3: Something's clearly not working. There's clearly a disconnect. As I said,

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Speaker 3: we had a meeting a couple of days ago, large

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Speaker 3: amount of police turned up to that meeting and they

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Speaker 3: really ultimately and it really does come back to them

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Speaker 3: coming to work and feeling like they have the amount

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Speaker 3: of people that are required to do the job. Now,

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Speaker 3: we have for many, many years been asking for minimum

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Speaker 3: staffing levels for people to be able to turn up

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Speaker 3: and know they're going to have two or three vans

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Speaker 3: on the road when they turn up. We know our

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Speaker 3: crime section for example, keeps getting pilfered when they need

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Speaker 3: police in Alis for example. I mean, we need to

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Speaker 3: have a model and a policing model. We know Victoria,

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Speaker 3: we know Tasmania have done this. They've looked at safe

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Speaker 3: staffing models and minimum staffing levels and clearly that needs

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Speaker 3: to be a commitment from government to sit down and

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Speaker 3: work with us and work with the Commissioner to see

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Speaker 3: what actually that model looks like to make sure that

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Speaker 3: support's in place for our officers.

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Speaker 1: So, Paul, what is going to like?

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Speaker 2: What are the next steps now with these survey results?

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Speaker 2: Because I feel as though last time we saw these

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Speaker 2: survey results there may have been some changes, there may

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Speaker 2: have been some tinkering around the edges, but based on

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Speaker 2: the most recent results, offices are still fed up.

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Speaker 1: So what needs to happen now?

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Speaker 3: Well, obviously, you know we are coming up to budget

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Speaker 3: time soon. The government can make a commitment at the

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Speaker 3: upcoming budget to really increase our staffing levels. I mean

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Speaker 3: it's not just the staffing on the front line, it's

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Speaker 3: the support network. We know there's a wellbeing review that

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Speaker 3: was conducted last year. We know there's a lot of

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Speaker 3: work that needs to be done in that space, but

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Speaker 3: you need the funding to be able to do it.

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Speaker 3: The budget must reflect the concerns of the membership. The

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Speaker 3: budget must reflect that our members have had enough. And

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Speaker 3: if they don't commit, the government don't commit to making

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Speaker 3: some changes in terms of increasing staffing in numbers, you

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Speaker 3: know we are going to end up with it with

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Speaker 3: even more police leave our territory. Often for other jurisdictions.

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Speaker 3: We just simply can't afford to keep doing that. We

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Speaker 3: can't have the turnover we've had and expect the community

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Speaker 3: to feel safe out there. It's just simply not sustainable.

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Speaker 1: Paul.

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Speaker 2: We have got messages coming through this morning. There's one

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Speaker 2: here that says I left the police as the management

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Speaker 2: and morale.

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Speaker 1: Is so poor.

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Speaker 2: The results of the survey are accurate, the Minister is

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Speaker 2: out of touch, and Jamie Chalker.

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Speaker 1: Needs to go.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean obviously that somebody's a view out there,

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Speaker 3: and obviously, you know, people will all have their opinions

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Speaker 3: about what this means and who's the cause of these

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Speaker 3: sorts of results. But ultimately our membership have had their say.

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Speaker 3: Those results are for everyone to look at. The Government,

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Speaker 3: the Commission of the Senior Executive. We all want to

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Speaker 3: work together to make sure those results turn around. We

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Speaker 3: don't want to keep them going in the direction they're

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Speaker 3: going because we just can't afford it.

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Speaker 2: Do you believe that this can be turned around, Paul?

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Speaker 2: Do you think that the government and the executive have

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Speaker 2: the will to want it to all turn around?

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Speaker 3: Well, the answer to that will come in the next

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Speaker 3: few months when we see the budget when we see

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Speaker 3: a commitment from government around investment into policing. We know Queensland,

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Speaker 3: we know Victoria, we know Tasmania. They've all invested in

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Speaker 3: additional police numbers over the last two or three years.

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Speaker 3: We have not done that. Our police numbers are stagnant.

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Speaker 3: They haven't increased dramatically over the last ten years at all.

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Speaker 3: And that is that is the results we're seeing today

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Speaker 3: as a result of that lack of investment. So the

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Speaker 3: next few months are critical and we really hope the

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Speaker 3: government are listening to our membership because if they're not

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Speaker 3: going to listen to them, who on earth will they

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Speaker 3: listen to?

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Speaker 1: Paul?

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Speaker 2: Just before I let you go, there was an update,

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Speaker 2: of course on that ax attack that happened at Daily River.

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Speaker 2: The Northern Territory Police have charged two men following the

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Speaker 2: recent disturbances in the Naiu community. Now those two blokes,

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Speaker 2: twenty four and twenty five, were arrested on Monday Now

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Speaker 2: been charged with a number of offenses including aggravated assault, being

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Speaker 2: armed with an offensive weapon at night, as well as

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Speaker 2: seriously in recklessly endangering serious harm. Both were bailed to

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Speaker 2: appear in the local court on the eighth of march.

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Speaker 2: Is that good enough from your perspective? Oh?

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Speaker 3: Look, I mean it's obviously devastating for those officers to

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Speaker 3: see those people be bailed. We know that's one example.

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Speaker 3: We know another example recently up here in Darwin where

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Speaker 3: officers were attacked with we are called secreateers, effectively large

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Speaker 3: bowl cutters. And we know that a particular individual who

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Speaker 3: could have received seven years when they pleaded guilty, received

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Speaker 3: one month. You know, I mean, these are the thoughts

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Speaker 3: of penalties that send the wrong message to police who

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Speaker 3: are out there putting their life on the line into

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Speaker 3: the community, because that's simply not good enough.

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Speaker 2: Police Association President Paul Mcue, We always appreciate your time.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining us this morning.

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Speaker 3: You thanks Catty, thank you,