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Speaker 1: Already and this is the Daily This is the Daily OS.

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Speaker 1: Oh now it makes sense. Good morning and welcome to

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Speaker 1: the Daily OS. It is Monday, the eighteenth of November.

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Speaker 2: I'm Billy, I'm Sam.

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Speaker 1: Education is one of the key portfolios in government that

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Speaker 1: affects young Australians the most, from what we get taught

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Speaker 1: in school to how we pay for university.

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Speaker 2: The decisions made by the Education Minister affects us all.

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Speaker 2: They are the person who leads areas like funding to

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Speaker 2: public schools, the arrival of foreign students in the universities,

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Speaker 2: and the contents of the national curriculum.

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Speaker 1: So today we interviewed the Federal Education Minister, Jason Clair.

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Speaker 1: With a federal election set to be held sometime by

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Speaker 1: May next year, we're here to interview the minister about

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Speaker 1: what he has done in the past three years of

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Speaker 1: government and what he plans to do if he's re elected.

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Speaker 1: Before we jump into it, I just want to say

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Speaker 1: a big thank you to all of you who sent

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Speaker 1: me questions over on our newsletter. It is always so

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Speaker 1: helpful when we are able to hear it directly from

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Speaker 1: you what you want to get answers to, and it's

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Speaker 1: always a great privilege to be able to actually put

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Speaker 1: them to the minister.

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Speaker 2: I really do feel like it's for TDA Australian media

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Speaker 2: acting as Australian media should. It's holding power to account

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Speaker 2: via the voices of our audience. So here's that chat.

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Speaker 1: Jason Claire, thank you so much for joining the Daily Ours.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: You are the Education Minister. Can you just explain what

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Speaker 1: is it that you do well?

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Speaker 3: I think feel so privileged. This is the best job

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Speaker 3: in the world. I'm responsible for everything from our higher

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Speaker 3: education system, to our school education system right through to

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Speaker 3: our early education system. So I really do believe that

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Speaker 3: education is the most powerful cause for good. We've got

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Speaker 3: a good education system, but I think it can be

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Speaker 3: a lot better, and I think it can be a

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Speaker 3: lot fit error, and so that's what drives me in

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Speaker 3: this job.

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Speaker 1: So earlier this month, you announced plans to take twenty

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Speaker 1: percent off all student debts if you're re elected next year. First,

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Speaker 1: you just want to explain what was the thinking behind

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Speaker 1: that policy.

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Speaker 3: So it's more expensive to go to university than it

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Speaker 3: was when HEX started, and wiping twenty percent of Hex's

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Speaker 3: debt fixes that for a generation of Australians. For about

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Speaker 3: three million Australians who've got a debt today. If you've

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Speaker 3: got an average debt today, which is about twenty seven grand,

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Speaker 3: it'll cut that debt by about five five hundred bucks,

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Speaker 3: So it's a significant amount of money.

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Speaker 1: It will only happen though, if you are re elected

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Speaker 1: next year. Why not introduce a bill before then.

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Speaker 3: And it's absolutely right that it's part of a second

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Speaker 3: term agenda, as Elbow sets out what we want to

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Speaker 3: do if we're privileged enough to win the next election.

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Speaker 3: And it does take time to pass legislation like this.

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Speaker 3: I've got six bills that are in the Parliament that

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Speaker 3: are going to get voted on in the next two weeks.

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Speaker 3: One of those is also about HEX. We're fixing what

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Speaker 3: happened last year where HEX debts went up by about

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Speaker 3: seven percent when inflation jumped. Say an average debt of

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Speaker 3: that twenty seven grand, that'll cut it by another one

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Speaker 3: two hundred dollars. But that bill's been in the Parliament

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Speaker 3: for about six months, so it takes time to make

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Speaker 3: these changes. But what we've said is that if we

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Speaker 3: win the election, this will be effective from the first

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Speaker 3: of June next year. So before indexation happens again, we'll

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Speaker 3: be able to cut everybody's debt by that twenty percent.

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Speaker 1: So we know that people who go to university have

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Speaker 1: higher earnings over their lifetimes than those who don't. Are

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Speaker 1: people with university degrees the most in need of this

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Speaker 1: cost of living relief?

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Speaker 3: I think all Australians need a bit of cost of

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Speaker 3: living relief. That's why we delivered tax cuts for everyone

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Speaker 3: thirteen million Australians.

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Speaker 1: But in terms of priorities of those who really need

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Speaker 1: the cost of living relief, is it mostly those people

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Speaker 1: with university degrees.

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Speaker 3: There are a lot of young Australians who need a

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Speaker 3: little bit of extra help with cost of living. One

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Speaker 3: of the other changes that we said will make, apart

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Speaker 3: from cutting your debt by twenty percent, is also lifting

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Speaker 3: the amount that you have to earn before you start

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Speaker 3: paying it back from fifty four grand to sixty seven grand,

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Speaker 3: and that's designed to be a bit of cost of

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Speaker 3: living relief for people who are just out of home,

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Speaker 3: got their first job, paying the rent, paying the bills

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Speaker 3: and do need a little bit of extra help.

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Speaker 1: Whilst we're talking about universities, I want to look at

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Speaker 1: international student cabs. So the government plans to cap international

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Speaker 1: student enrollments to two hundred and seventy thousand per year. Again,

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Speaker 1: I just want to first understand what is the thinking

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Speaker 1: behind that bill.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, an important to note maybe at the start it's

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Speaker 3: not enrollments but commencements, so it'll be two hundred and

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Speaker 3: seventy thousand international students that can start a course next year.

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Speaker 3: The thinking behind it, I guess, is twofold. The bill

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Speaker 3: is designed to fix some integrity problems in the system

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Speaker 3: at the moment after COVID well, I guess during COVID,

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Speaker 3: international students were told to go home, and they did,

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Speaker 3: and then once the borders were opened up, students came

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Speaker 3: back in bigger numbers than we ever expected, and so

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Speaker 3: did some of the crooks that feed off a multi

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Speaker 3: billion dollar industry. So we've had students come here to

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Speaker 3: do a university degree, they get approached by somebody at

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Speaker 3: a railway station offering a free iPad and a cheaper course.

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Speaker 3: They switch from a UNI degree to another course that

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Speaker 3: doesn't cost very much, and they end up not doing

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Speaker 3: the course at all, and they use the system as

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Speaker 3: a backdoor to work. Here, we're trying to.

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Speaker 1: So this is to limit migration.

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Speaker 3: What we've said is we want to reduce overall migration.

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Speaker 1: Banking six stained why that is needed.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think part of it is making sure that

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Speaker 3: we've got a sustainable level of migration as a country.

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Speaker 3: We want to get total migration numbers back to what

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Speaker 3: they were before the pandemic, and part of that is

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Speaker 3: getting international student numbers that come to Australia every year

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Speaker 3: back to that pre pandemic level as well. We are

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Speaker 3: a country that's built by migration. My community in Western

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Speaker 3: Sydney is a classic example of it. I think one

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Speaker 3: of the reasons that we are such an incredible country

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Speaker 3: as we're made up of people from all around the world.

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Speaker 3: International students are really important for this country. They don't

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Speaker 3: just make money for universities. They make money for our

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Speaker 3: entire economy. And they do more than just make money.

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Speaker 3: This is about trying to make sure that the system

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Speaker 3: is sustainable in the longer term.

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Speaker 1: For some of those universities, it will result in a

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Speaker 1: significant loss of income and it's understood that a lot

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Speaker 1: of people will lose their jobs because of it. Is

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Speaker 1: there a plan for that transition period.

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Speaker 3: There's a funding model for our universities that exists at

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Speaker 3: the moment that continues into next year in terms of

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Speaker 3: the guaranteed funding for all of our universities. But there's

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Speaker 3: extra funding that will be built into our universities as

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Speaker 3: part of this Accord reform agenda from the end of

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 1: Homards, we'll be back with this interview in a moment,

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Speaker 1: but first a message from my sponsor. Let's move to schools.

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Speaker 1: So the government's plan to better fund public schools is

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Speaker 1: called the Better and Fairer Schools Agreement. For those who

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Speaker 1: don't know about this agreement, do you want to just

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Speaker 1: explain what it is.

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Speaker 3: It's about making sure that we fund our schools properly

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Speaker 3: and that we fund our children properly. Everyone will remember

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Speaker 3: David Gonski, maybe not.

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Speaker 1: All of the young people. Don't just explain it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you're right. This is a long time ago. When

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Speaker 3: Julia Gillard was the Prime Minister of Australia, she asked

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Speaker 3: an eminent Australian, David Gonski, to develop a formula for

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Speaker 3: how we properly fund our schools. And that was over

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Speaker 3: a decade ago, and David came up with a formula

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Speaker 3: that is now partially implemented for non government schools. For

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Speaker 3: private schools, they're now funded at that level that David

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Speaker 3: said that they should be.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's focus on the public schools. Do you want

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Speaker 1: to just explain what is the Better and Fairer agreement?

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Speaker 3: Well, first, let me make the point that no public

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Speaker 3: school is funded at that level that David Gonski said

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Speaker 3: they should be, except for the Act. And so what

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Speaker 3: David said was that there's an amount of money that

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Speaker 3: should be allocated to each child, and at the moment

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Speaker 3: it's around about thirteen and a half thousand dollars for

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Speaker 3: each primary school student and about seventeen and a half

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Speaker 3: thousand dollars for each high school student. That's the base

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Speaker 3: amount of money, and then you provide extra funding based

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Speaker 3: on need. So that's the formula. Non government schools are

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Speaker 3: buying large at it. Public schools aren't. And what I've

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Speaker 3: said is we need to fix that. We need to

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Speaker 3: finish the work that David started. So the Better Fare

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Speaker 3: of Schools Agreement is all about that, making sure that

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Speaker 3: we fund public schools at the level that David said

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Speaker 3: they should be at, and then using that money in

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Speaker 3: the right way to fix some of the real challenges

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Speaker 3: that exist in our schools at the moment. I've managed

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Speaker 3: so far sign an agreement with Western Australia that will

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Speaker 3: get them to that full funding level in just over

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Speaker 3: twelve months time, and with Tasmania in just oy of

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Speaker 3: a twelve months time, and with the Northern Territory too

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Speaker 3: in four years time.

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Speaker 1: So my understanding of how this works is that the

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Speaker 1: federal government currently funds twenty percent of that minimum level

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Speaker 1: of funding required, and this agreement proposes that the federal

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Speaker 1: government increases that by two point five percent, and five

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Speaker 1: of the eight state and territory governments have said that

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Speaker 1: the federal government should be increasing it by five percent.

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Speaker 1: So the rest of the state and territory governments are

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Speaker 1: saying that the federal government is not providing enough funding

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Speaker 1: for public schools. What do you say to that?

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Speaker 3: What I'd say is that I've got sixteen billion dollars

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Speaker 3: of extra Commonwealth funding on the table to be able

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Speaker 3: to close this funding gap.

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Speaker 1: But to be really clear, you're saying no to the

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Speaker 1: state and territory governments that you won't increase what I'm

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Speaker 1: saying to public schools.

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Speaker 3: First, let's do the same deal that we've done with

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Speaker 3: two other states, Wa and Tasmania, where we both chip in.

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Speaker 3: If we both chip in, we can get this done.

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Speaker 3: And that's sixteen billion dollars. To put it in perspective,

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Speaker 3: would be the biggest extra Commonwealth investment in public schools

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Speaker 3: ever ever. You know, it would be a significant extra

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Speaker 3: investment by the Commonwealth government in our public schools. And

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Speaker 3: what I'm saying to the other states is if Wa

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Speaker 3: can chip in, and if Tasmania can chip in, and

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Speaker 3: if the Northern Territory can chip in extra funding too,

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Speaker 3: then you can too. And if we chip all of

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Speaker 3: our money in here, we can fix the funding of

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Speaker 3: our public schools.

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Speaker 1: With the five state and territory governments that have not

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Speaker 1: agreed to this proposal, what happens if you don't reach

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Speaker 1: an agreement. Do they miss out on that two point

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Speaker 1: five percent increase.

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Speaker 3: If we don't reach agreement by the end of this year,

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Speaker 3: what we do is we roll over their.

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Speaker 1: Existing fundings, so they'll miss out on the two point

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Speaker 1: five percent of extra fund for public schools.

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Speaker 3: Not necessarily, they could sign a deal today and get

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Speaker 3: that extra funding done. If they don't, what we do

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Speaker 3: need to do is sign an agreement to roll over

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Speaker 3: the current twenty percent.

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Speaker 1: In your first speech to Parliament, I think it was

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and seven that you said, let us

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Speaker 1: be the government that again invests in public education. Do

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Speaker 1: you think that you've done that?

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Speaker 3: I think with the deals that I'm doing, i am.

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Speaker 3: You know, I want to be the minister that finishes

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Speaker 3: the work that David Gonsky started. And you know that

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Speaker 3: is a long time ago. I was privileged to be

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Speaker 3: part of the Rudd and the Gillard governments that initiated

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Speaker 3: that work and started the extra funding for our public schools.

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Speaker 3: But the job isn't done yet. And I've got sixteen

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Speaker 3: billion dollars to do the same deal right across the country.

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Speaker 1: Let's move it to single sex education. Time after time,

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Speaker 1: we have seen allegations of misconduct, sometimes really serious ones

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Speaker 1: emerge from all male schools and colleges. They are mostly

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Speaker 1: private institutions. But is there any role that your government

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Speaker 1: can play in changing the culture.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there is, And particularly when it comes to colleges

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Speaker 3: on university campuses. The fact is that I think those colleges,

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Speaker 3: our universities, governments have failed students have failed. The people

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Speaker 3: that have either lived there and been abused, have been

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Speaker 3: the subject of sexual violence in the past, and there

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Speaker 3: is more that we can do and must do. I've

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Speaker 3: brought together the state education ministers and they've agreed to

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Speaker 3: establish a national Student Ombardsman. It's something that organizations like

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Speaker 3: End Rape on Campus and Stop and Fair Agenda have

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Speaker 3: been calling for for the best part of a decade

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Speaker 3: and change is now coming.

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Speaker 1: I want to move to last topic. Teachers. We asked

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Speaker 1: our audience what they wanted us to ask you today

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Speaker 1: and the number one question that came back was about

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Speaker 1: teacher burnout. From your perspective as the education minister, why

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Speaker 1: do you think that teachers are so burned out right now?

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Speaker 3: It's a bunch of reasons. If you ask teachers, some

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Speaker 3: will tell you it's about paperwork, it's about administration, it's

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Speaker 3: about having time to teach and all of the other

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Speaker 3: things that come with being a teacher. Some will tell

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Speaker 3: you that it's about pay as well. And the good

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Speaker 3: news here in New South Wales is the recent agreement

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Speaker 3: that means the starting teachers now earning I think or

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Speaker 3: will earn cluster one hundred thousand dollars. They're all part

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Speaker 3: of the reason why people are leaving the profession that

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Speaker 3: they love, resigning, not retiring, and I want to be

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Speaker 3: part of turning that around.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that educators across the board are adequately

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Speaker 1: valued in Australia?

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Speaker 3: No, No, I don't. If you survey teachers in Australia

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Speaker 3: and ask them do you feel like you're valued by

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Speaker 3: other Australians, you'll find that only about one in three

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Speaker 3: teachers say that they do that they really feel like

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Speaker 3: they're valued and respected. And that helps, in part to

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Speaker 3: explain why not enough people are signing up to want

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Speaker 3: to be a teacher, and why a lot of people

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Speaker 3: are leaving.

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Speaker 1: I think teachers listening would think, if you don't think

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Speaker 1: that they're adequately valued and you can't change it as

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Speaker 1: the education minister, then who can change it?

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Speaker 3: I think this is a this is a job for

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Speaker 3: all of us.

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Speaker 1: You know, I've got a leader of that education sector.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I've got a microphone to help talk about how

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Speaker 3: important our teachers are and to back that with the

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Speaker 3: sort of money that I talked about a moment ago.

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Speaker 3: We ran a big campaign last year called Be That Teacher,

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Speaker 3: which was designed to shine a light on the importance

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Speaker 3: of teachers right across the country. You know, I said

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Speaker 3: that only one in three teachers feel like they're valued

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Speaker 3: and appreciated by the community. The same survey in a

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Speaker 3: place like Singapore finds that about seventy percent of teachers

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Speaker 3: feel like they're valued, and there's a line out the

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Speaker 3: door in Singapore to become a school teacher. So something

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Speaker 3: as fundamental and basic and important as respect as a

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Speaker 3: massive impact on whether people want to be a teacher

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Speaker 3: and whether they stay.

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Speaker 1: Jason Claire, thank you so much for joining The Daily Oz.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us for that interview

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Speaker 2: between Billy and the minister. If you enjoyed it, I'm

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Speaker 2: going to give you eight to ten seconds. Now I'm

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Speaker 2: going to stay in your ears. I might sing you

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Speaker 2: a little bit of elevative music. To go over and

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Speaker 2: give us a five star rating on Spotify or give us,

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Speaker 2: the podcast, maybe even flick it to a friend. That

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Speaker 2: is the engine that keeps independent media in Australia going.

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Speaker 2: So I'm going to give you a second like that.

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Speaker 1: You're going to sing for us, So.

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Speaker 2: Now I reckon they're going into that menu Thank you

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Speaker 2: so much for clicking five stars. Guys, I really appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: That was enough time, right, Yeah, that was perfect, amazing.

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Speaker 2: We'll speak to you again this afternoon. Until then, have

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Speaker 2: a great day.

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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 1: Bunjelung Calcuttin woman from Gadigal Country. The Daily odz acknowledges

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 1: Gadigal people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and torrest

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Speaker 1: Rate island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.