1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:02,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, I think that's the problem with so much 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:06,960 Speaker 1: productivity advice is that it's presented as if, you know, 3 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: our lives are sort of static and the situation is 4 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: always the same, and you know, if you just make 5 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: this one change, then all of your problems will be 6 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 1: solved and everything will be okay, right, But it's much 7 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: more about principles than giving you know, kind of broad 8 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: principles that you can follow, rather than giving people specific 9 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:25,600 Speaker 1: rules because you have to adapt to the situation. 10 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 11 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 2: used by leading innovators to get so much out of 12 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,199 Speaker 2: their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber. I'm an 13 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 2: organizational psychologist, the CEO of Inventium, and I'm obsessed with 14 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:46,559 Speaker 2: finding ways to optimize my work day. Today's show is 15 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 2: the last episode of the year for twenty eighteen, and 16 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 2: if you want to tune in over January, I'll be 17 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 2: replaying some of the most popular episodes from twenty eighteen, 18 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 2: and as of February, I'll be releasing a whole bunch 19 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 2: of new interviews that I've been doing in December, which 20 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 2: I'm very excited about. So on to today's episode. My 21 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:19,119 Speaker 2: guest today is Jocelyn k. Gli, who is a writer 22 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 2: who is obsessed, like me, on finding more creativity and 23 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 2: meaning in our daily work. She's the author of several 24 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 2: books and was formerly the editor in chief of ninety 25 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 2: nine You. She also hosts the podcast Hurry Slowly, which 26 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 2: is about how you can be more productive, creative, and 27 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 2: resilient through the simple act of slowing down. And I 28 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 2: must say Hurry Slowly is definitely one of my favorite 29 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 2: podcasts now. Not surprisingly, Jocelyn thinks very deeply about how 30 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 2: she works, and she's very deliberate about how she structures 31 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 2: her day. In this chat, we talk a lot about 32 00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 2: the different strategies that she uses across her work day, 33 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 2: and something I particularly liked hearing about is how she 34 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 2: uses breaks and what she does during her breaks to 35 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 2: help essentially refresh her brain. Now, if you like this 36 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 2: episode with Jocelyn, she's actually about to launch an online 37 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 2: course called Reset, which she describes as like a cosmic 38 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 2: tune up for your workdate. You can sign up for 39 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,959 Speaker 2: that at reset dash course dot com and I'll linked 40 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 2: to that in the show notes. And now over to 41 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 2: Jocelyn to hear about how she works Jocelin, Welcome to 42 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 2: the show. 43 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:35,079 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having me. 44 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 2: I want to start by talking about email, because you 45 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 2: wrote a book, a whole book about email called Unsubscribed, 46 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 2: which I read recently and I loved, and I got 47 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 2: to say, probably the biggest thing I took from it, 48 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 2: because I have done a lot of thinking about email, 49 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 2: is you kind of use the analogy of how we 50 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 2: used to receive mail in the past, which was snail 51 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 2: mail in our letterbox. And I still now have this 52 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 2: image whenever I'm checking my email and feeling guilty that 53 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 2: I'm not responding to everyone, of just thinking of it 54 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 2: as a bunch of letters just kind of lying on 55 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 2: the desk, and I suddenly feel fireless obligation to actually 56 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 2: personally respond to everyone. So I I'm not sure if 57 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 2: that's a tip that that really stuck with you, But 58 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:22,359 Speaker 2: there's so much in the book and I'm curious, how 59 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 2: do you personally approach your email? 60 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:28,799 Speaker 1: Well, at this point when I when I wrote the book, 61 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: I was more in the world of, you know, having 62 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: lots and lots and lots of email because I was, 63 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: you know, working a sort of more well, I was 64 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: working at a startup. I was going to say, nine 65 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: to five shop, but startup jobs aren't actually like that. 66 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: So I had a you know, a crazy amount of email, 67 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: but now I actually work for myself and it's it's 68 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: it's quite a bit it's quite a bit less. But 69 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: you know, in terms of the stuff that I really 70 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: use for myself from the book, I mean, I use 71 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: everything that's in the book. But I think that, you know, 72 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: people wanted to make one change. I mean, I think 73 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: the most significant thing is to you know, switch from 74 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: nibbling on your email throughout the day to batch processing, right, 75 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: so picking you know, a few maybe two or three 76 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:17,559 Speaker 1: discrete windows of time throughout the day when you focus 77 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: one hundred percent on your email and then otherwise you know, 78 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,799 Speaker 1: attempting to more or less ignore your email and focus 79 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 1: on other work. And research has shown that, especially for 80 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: people who have a high volume of email, that makes 81 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: them feel more productive and makes them feel less stressed, 82 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:38,920 Speaker 1: and it makes them feel happier. So that's a pretty 83 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 1: good argument in favor of that. There's also some pretty 84 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: interesting studies that show that the more frequently you check 85 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: your email, the more stressed out you feel, So that 86 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 1: kind of, you know, backs up that notion as well. 87 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: So I mean, I think honestly that's the biggest shift, 88 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: and I don't think it's you know, sort of a 89 00:04:57,720 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: crazy you know, it's not like people like, oh my god, 90 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: like that's such a surprising tip, Like I think we 91 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: try to do that. But I think that there's a 92 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: couple you know, aside from it making you feel less stressed, 93 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: aside from it actually making you more productive. I think 94 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: also there's an interesting layer to it that we don't 95 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 1: think about a lot that kind of goes with that 96 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: metaphor you were talking about a physical mail, is that 97 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:21,919 Speaker 1: when you look at your email, you know, sort of 98 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: all at once, as opposed to looking at it in 99 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 1: a notification driven way, it's much easier to prioritize, you know, 100 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 1: when you're looking at a chunk of twenty messages and 101 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 1: you're trying to decide what's important, it's much easier to say, Okay, 102 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: this is important, but not urgent. Okay, this is urgent, 103 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 1: and actually like this is someone who doesn't even really 104 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: deserve my time. When you're kind of chunking it like that, 105 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: it makes it easier to make those decisions, whereas when 106 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: you're just kind of looking at every email as it 107 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: comes in. It's I think a lot harder to judge 108 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: what's important and what's not important, And so you end 109 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 1: up working in this really reactive way and maybe you know, 110 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:03,359 Speaker 1: giving a random stranger who shows up in your inbox 111 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: as much time as you know you might give one 112 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 1: of your most important clients. 113 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 2: I love that advice, and I think the batching of 114 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 2: email is so sensible. How how do you personally apply 115 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 2: that in your own life? Like, what does the typical 116 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 2: day of email look like? And how do you then 117 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 2: resist the temptation of just sort of doing a just 118 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 2: check of email, maybe when you've hit a stuck point 119 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 2: with something. 120 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, well for me, well, I think the point that 121 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: email is really important, right, that just to be conscious 122 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: that you often do it just when you're stuck, you know, 123 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: sort of just at the moment when you are confronting 124 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 1: a really hard part of maybe a creative problem that 125 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 1: you're trying to solve, and that you won't be able 126 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: to push through it if you, you know, take one 127 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: of those breaks. But I think the other thing is, 128 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: and this is what people really struggle with, is at 129 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: different times, different messages from different people are you know, 130 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: very important or very pressing. Right, So for me, I 131 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: like to use I use Apple Mail on my phone 132 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 1: and I use the VIP function, you know, where you 133 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 1: can set different VIPs and then you can basically have 134 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: it sort of push to a text alert if you 135 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: get an email from that person, which means that you 136 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 1: don't have to actually open up your inbox to know 137 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: if you've gotten an email from one of these VIPs. 138 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: And that's kind of a simple way to recognize, yes, 139 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: maybe I do really need to get an email from 140 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: one or two or three different people, but I don't 141 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: need to interrupt myself to give that attention to all 142 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 1: of the other people who are going to show up 143 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: in my inbox who aren't those VIPs. So I think 144 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: figuring out some type of system where you're able to 145 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 1: and I constantly change those things based on project, you know. 146 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: So like when I was trying to get a book deal, 147 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: my agent was a VIP because those messages were really important. 148 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: But once that moment of urgency ended, I took her 149 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: off the VIP list because, you know, those messages weren't 150 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: pressing anymore. So I think kind of having a concept 151 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: of in your mind of you know, who is important 152 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: and who should be treated as urgent based on the 153 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 1: problems that you're and the projects that you're working on. 154 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: Makes that a little bit simpler. 155 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 2: I like that idea of having a flexible VIP list. 156 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 2: I feel like when people think about the VIP list, 157 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 2: and certainly for me, I think all that's just constant, 158 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 2: Like you know, VIPs don't change, They're always important. But 159 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 2: that's so true. It completely depends on what's going on 160 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 2: in your working life. Yeah. 161 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: Well, and I think that's the problem with so much 162 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: productivity advice is that it's presented as if, you know, 163 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: our lives are sort of static and the situation is 164 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: always the same, and you know, if you just make 165 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: this one change, then all of your problems will be 166 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 1: solved and everything will be okay, right, But it's much 167 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: more about principles than giving you know, kind of broad 168 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,439 Speaker 1: principles that you can follow, rather than giving people specific rules, 169 00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: because you have to adapt to the situation. 170 00:08:59,480 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 2: You know. 171 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 1: So, like right now, I'm in the process of, you know, 172 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: pushing towards a really big launch for a creative project, 173 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,719 Speaker 1: this new online course that I'm launching. And because I'm 174 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 1: in this pre launch mode, you know, my way of 175 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: working and the things that are urgent are completely different 176 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: than they were three months ago when I was in 177 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: the throes of writing the course and really incubating it, 178 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 1: and so the shape of my day looks really different 179 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: in those two different context and so I think it's 180 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:33,559 Speaker 1: important to recognize that for your own workflow, like which 181 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: kind of mode you are with you know, the project 182 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 1: or multiple projects that you're working on, and understand that 183 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: you're going to have to kind of constantly adapt based 184 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: on that. So sometimes if you're in a pre launch mode, 185 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: like when I was before I was launching the book Unsubscribe, 186 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: I needed to I needed to check my email more 187 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: frequently because I was constantly responding to press and you know, 188 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: doing other things like that. But once I was out 189 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: of that sort of press, you know, promotion and mode, 190 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 1: I didn't really need to be as responsive as email. 191 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 1: And so we have to kind of flex and adapt 192 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: in that way. 193 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 2: And now I want to delve into the course that 194 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,439 Speaker 2: you mentioned Reset, which which by the time this podcast 195 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 2: goes to air, I think, well, we'll be accepting registrations 196 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 2: and I want to know, like about the different stages 197 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 2: of creating that for you, and maybe if if we 198 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 2: kind of go back in time to that incubation and 199 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 2: creation stage, like, what would a typical day look like 200 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 2: for you when that's the stage in the project where you're. 201 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: At, Yeah, well, when I'm in you know, sort of 202 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:44,079 Speaker 1: creator mode, you know, for me, the normal day looks 203 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: like I really try to and this is actually something 204 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: that we that I go through and the course kind 205 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: of how to do this, I really try to align 206 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: with sort of you know, the kind of natural circadian rhythms, 207 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: you know that that all of our bodies have, and 208 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: sort of the natural energy peaks and dips that we 209 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 1: move through throughout a day. So for me, my kind 210 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: of everyone kind of has you know, peak times for focus, 211 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,959 Speaker 1: you know, and it's typically about maybe about two hours 212 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: a day where you kind of hit have this really 213 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: peak cognitive mental capacity. So when I'm developing something, and 214 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 1: I'm a writer, so usually it's something that I'm writing, 215 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: I try to make sure that I reserve that specific peak, 216 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: you know, for my writing time. So for me, that 217 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: kind of peak window is from about ten am to 218 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: twelve pm in the morning, and so I try to 219 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: make sure that I'm at my desk at about nine thirty. 220 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 1: I usually start writing around nine thirty or ten, and 221 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:48,319 Speaker 1: then I'll usually write for somewhere between three and four 222 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 1: hours a day from the sort of natural flow of 223 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: your attention. In terms of the research on that, the 224 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: sort of kind of optimal rhythm that most kind of 225 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 1: top performers, whether musicians or athletes or whatnot use is 226 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: working in sort of ninety two one hundred and twenty 227 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: minute sprints and then with kind of a thirty minute 228 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 1: break in between, right, taking a rest between those sprints 229 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 1: of an hour and a half to two hours. And 230 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: for most people, even top for warmers, most people can 231 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: only do about three of those sprints, right, So three 232 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 1: ninety minute sprints about four and a half hours of work, right, 233 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: And that's if you're really in you know, kind of 234 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 1: peak shape, not necessarily peak athletic shape, but let's say 235 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: peak you know, kind of attentional shape, right, Like you 236 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: can really focus in these long stretches. So for me, 237 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: I try to do at least sort of two of 238 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: those ninety minute sprints in the morning, you know, do 239 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 1: about three hours of work or you know, about three 240 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 1: and a half hours with a break in between. Sometimes 241 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:50,839 Speaker 1: I'll go a little bit longer and maybe do a 242 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 1: kind of third little sprint and then you know, for me, 243 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: that's like, okay, that's a good day of you know, 244 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: doing the hard creative work. And then in the afternoon 245 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: I usually turn my tent to you know, the stuff 246 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: that's a little bit less demanding. It could be catching 247 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: up an email or doing something like putting together my newsletter, 248 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:10,599 Speaker 1: which is you know, a little bit lower energy and 249 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: less demanding. 250 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,439 Speaker 2: And what do you do during the break time? Because 251 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:19,439 Speaker 2: I feel like people people don't talk about this, and 252 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 2: I think that some people feel like taking a break 253 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 2: is a sign of weakness and that you know, the 254 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 2: top performers just you know, do the marathon, which which 255 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 2: of course you know, is not the case in terms 256 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 2: of how how our brain works. So like, what what 257 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 2: do you do to re energize during a break? 258 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I think there's I'll describe to you 259 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 1: what I did today, which is not necessarily a totally 260 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: ideal example, but you know, today I sat on my 261 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: computer at nine thirty and I think I worked, I 262 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: you know, kind of sprint sprint, sprinted, and I took 263 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 1: a break to you know, have a snack or something. 264 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: But I worked until about one I've worked until about 265 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 1: one pm from nine thirty in the morning with one 266 00:13:58,280 --> 00:13:59,719 Speaker 1: like you know, kind of quick break to have a 267 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 1: have a snack in the middle. And then I laid 268 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 1: down on my sofa and I think I just read 269 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: a novel for like forty five minutes, and then I 270 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: was and then I like looked at, you know, kind 271 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: of what were my priorities for the week, and I 272 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 1: was like, okay, like what do I think I, you know, 273 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: should work on next. And then I went and took 274 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: a shower, and then while I was in the shower, 275 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: one of the things that I needed to work on 276 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: was I needed to write a meditation for this podcast 277 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: that's coming up on my podcast Harsh Slowly. And so 278 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 1: then while I was in the shower, I got the 279 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: sort of whole idea for how I wanted to you know, 280 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: write the podcast episode. So I got out and then 281 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: I sketched out a bunch of notes like Okay, this 282 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: is how the arc of the you know, the meditation 283 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: is going to go. And then you know whatever, I moved, 284 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 1: I moved on to some other things. But that's just 285 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: sort of an example of a break, right, So I 286 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: just kind of laid down and read I did something 287 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 1: unrelated and then I took a shower. I let my 288 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: mind wander, and these new ideas came in. And I 289 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: think what's interesting about that is that if I hadn't 290 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 1: sort of taken that break, and I hadn't then you know, 291 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: kind of taking a shower, done something, you know, something automatic, right, 292 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: like taking a shower, folding laundry, going for a run, 293 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: you know, something where your mind can wander. I think 294 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: the work would have proceeded more slowly than it did 295 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: with taking breaks, right because basically by kind of taking 296 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: a break and then you know, going and taking a shower, 297 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: I kind of opened up this space and you know 298 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: the sort of ideas for how this piece of writing, 299 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: this meditation just kind of, you know, came to me 300 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: in this very natural way. Whereas I feel like if 301 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: I had instead not taken a break and just been like, 302 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: oh my god, I got to get this meditation written, 303 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: you know, and satin down at my desk and really 304 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: tried to force it, I think probably like something would 305 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: have come out, but you know, it wouldn't have been 306 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: very good, and I would have just sort of gotten frustrated, 307 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: and then I would have had to like leave it 308 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 1: till tomorrow anyway, you know. So I think I think 309 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: there's something really valuable in the idea of going slow 310 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: to go fast. You know, we think that breaks just 311 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: slow us down, or we think even that we have 312 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: to be doing something productive during a break, but I 313 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: think it's it's really all about just those breaks are 314 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: sort of moments to declutter your mind, right, so that 315 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: new ideas can come in. And I think if you 316 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: don't take those breaks and you don't kind of allow 317 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 1: that clutter to sort of fall away, you know, or 318 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: get cleared out, you know, you don't have room for 319 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: those ideas to come in. And I think the same 320 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 1: is true as if you you know, you take a 321 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 1: break and you're like, oh, I'm taking a break, but 322 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: I want to do something productive. You know, I'm going 323 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: to listen to a podcast or you know, I'm going 324 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: to read this article or whatever, you know, and those 325 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 1: are good things to do. I have a podcast, you 326 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: have a podcast. We like it when people listen to podcasts. 327 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: But but you know, you're putting those are inputs, right, 328 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: Those are more things that you're consuming, more ideas that 329 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: you're consuming that you're putting into your mind. And that 330 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: is adding although of course it can add knowledge, and 331 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 1: of course it can give you new skills, it's also 332 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: adding a certain level of sort of taking up a 333 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 1: certain level of mental bandwidth and kind of creating a 334 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:15,239 Speaker 1: certain level of clutter, you know, which impedes, you know, 335 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 1: your new ideas and your creativity from bubbling up. And 336 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 1: I think because we are all such media consumers and 337 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:28,120 Speaker 1: that hunger and that market for media consumption is only growing, 338 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: that many of us are in this state where we're 339 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: just constantly consuming other people's ideas and we don't realize 340 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: that that is really reducing our ability to kind of, 341 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: you know, have our own ideas and to let that 342 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:43,880 Speaker 1: that creativity really bubble up. 343 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 2: M that's so true. I love the I love the 344 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 2: sound of your day, and particularly just the idea of 345 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,920 Speaker 2: reading a novel for forty forty five minutes on the couch. 346 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 2: It sounds delightful and it's funny like I used to 347 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 2: be quite recive towards reading fiction. I'm such a big 348 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 2: nonfiction reader, and I would feel guilt whenever I would 349 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 2: read fiction because it's like, well, I'm not I'm not 350 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 2: learning anything. This is not improving me in any way. 351 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 2: But I remember I had Matt Mullenwig on the show 352 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 2: a few months ago, and he was talking about the 353 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 2: role that fiction played in his life, and it sort 354 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,439 Speaker 2: of started to reduce the guilt that I felt about that. 355 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 2: But I'm wondering, like for you, when when you started 356 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 2: taking these breaks, which I'm sure to many listeners who 357 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:32,199 Speaker 2: are working like in an office where they can't have 358 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 2: a shower in the middle of the day, like it 359 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 2: sounds so luxurious, like when you started this kind of rhythm, 360 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 2: I guess, was there any guilt wrapped up in you know, 361 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 2: I guess doing activities during the day that are not 362 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 2: work related. 363 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: Oh, of course, I mean I thought about it today. 364 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: I thought, I thought, I'm going to read this novel 365 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,360 Speaker 1: on the couch, and I thought, Wow, this is really 366 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 1: a new thing, and I feel comfortable doing this. And 367 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: then I was like, yeah, I'm going to do that, 368 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 1: and that I did, and you know, and then and 369 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 1: then it kind of did lead, you know, to me 370 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:05,919 Speaker 1: having this these good ideas about something later. I mean, 371 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 1: I think, of course, you know, I'm describing my day. 372 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: I have a lot of autonomy over my day. I 373 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 1: run my own business, I work from home, I have 374 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: a maximum amount of flexibility and autonomy, but I still 375 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: think that it's incredibly important for anyone even if you 376 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: don't have you know, you only have some you know, 377 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,640 Speaker 1: modicum of autonomy over your day, or even if you 378 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: you know you're let's say you're an entrepreneur, you know, 379 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: and you run a startup, and you're incredibly busy, you know, 380 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: and you have back to back meetings happening all the time. 381 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:45,160 Speaker 1: There's some really interesting research around this idea of time scarcity, 382 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: which is basically right, when we when you live in 383 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: this way where you're constantly overscheduled and you're constantly overstimulated, 384 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: you're constantly overbooked, right, you never feel like you have 385 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 1: enough time to do the things that you need to do. 386 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,240 Speaker 1: And what they found was that it leads heads to 387 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:04,919 Speaker 1: a kind of tunnel vision. It makes you less insightful, 388 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: it makes you less forward thinking, and it makes you 389 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: less controlled. And if you think about those qualities right, 390 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 1: less controlled, less insightful, less forward thinking, that's basically kind 391 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 1: of everything that you need to solve hard creative problems. Right. 392 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 1: You need discipline, you need vision, and you need insight. Right, 393 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: all of those things are compromised if you're living in 394 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: a state of time scarcity, which many of us are. 395 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: So you know, I would say to even someone you know, 396 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,199 Speaker 1: to someone who's really really really busy, you know, and 397 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 1: they're like, well, I don't you know, I can't read 398 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: a novel much less, you know, have forty five minutes 399 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: between meetings. It's still really important to even think about, 400 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: you know, just blocking off an hour or two a 401 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: week on your calendar just for unstructured thinking, you know, 402 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: just where you're not committed to doing anything, because if 403 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,160 Speaker 1: you're not doing that, you know, if you're an entrepreneur, 404 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:04,880 Speaker 1: if you're a leader, you're just trying to someone who's 405 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 1: trying to lead themselves. You are not giving yourself you know, 406 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 1: you're kind of working in this modality that really leads 407 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 1: to tunnel vision, and so you can only have this 408 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: very narrow focus and you can't see the big picture. 409 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,439 Speaker 1: And if you're leading something, you really need to be 410 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 1: able to do that. So, you know, that's just kind 411 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 1: of one example of how opening up a little bit 412 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: of space in your schedule, not even you know, necessarily 413 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 1: to rest, but just to have some unstructured thinking, you know, 414 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 1: and not to have an objective about what you're trying 415 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 1: to accomplish and just to kind of see what percolates up, 416 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:45,479 Speaker 1: you know, or to just say to yourself, Okay, I'm 417 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:47,159 Speaker 1: going to think about, you know, what are my business 418 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 1: goals for the next year, the next quarter. To have 419 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,680 Speaker 1: the time to do the stuff like that is crucial 420 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: to you know, having any type of vision or really 421 00:21:57,560 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 1: being creative in any way. 422 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 2: I'm curious, like what this will look like when, like 423 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 2: during your time at a startup where you know, which 424 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,199 Speaker 2: is obviously completely different from the context that you're in 425 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 2: at the moment, Like what was the typical day there, 426 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 2: or like how how would you, I guess ply apply 427 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 2: a lot of the principles that you obviously think really 428 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 2: deeply about when you're not necessarily in control of all 429 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 2: of your time. 430 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 1: I'll just give you a quick, you know, sketch of 431 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 1: by background, this is kind of unusual in that so 432 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 1: I was working, I was leading this this sort of 433 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 1: startup within a startup called ninety nine Year, which was 434 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 1: all about essentially how creative people make their ideas happen, 435 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: you know, so talking to designers, entrepreneurs, artists about how 436 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: they build incredible careers how they build incredible businesses and 437 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,160 Speaker 1: really getting into that kind of nitty gritty of idea execution. 438 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: And we published articles and interviews and tips. It's also 439 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: big in a conference every year at Lincoln Center book 440 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: series that I did. My point being my job in 441 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 1: many ways was to interview people and to study, you know, 442 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 1: what made people more productive and what made them more creative. Right, 443 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: and that that was my startup job, which is kind 444 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 1: of funny, so it's like very meta. And then about 445 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: four or five years into that job, I really burnt out. 446 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: I had what I call kind of my busyness breakdown. 447 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: And I didn't really have a breakdown, but it was 448 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: just a year where it was almost like I was 449 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: like drunk on my own productivity. Like, you know, we 450 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: were accomplishing so much, and we were building so many 451 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,679 Speaker 1: things so quickly, and then we just you know, just 452 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 1: decided to take on too many things, you know, got 453 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: really ambitious and you know, and so I had this 454 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: year that was just like unbelievably intense. You know. We 455 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: took our conference from four hundred people to a thousand people, 456 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: to a new venue. We added on a completely new 457 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: three day event that we produced on half the budget 458 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,639 Speaker 1: twice as fast. I published two books that year, you know, 459 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 1: like it was just a crazy year. And so that really, 460 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: in any case, that breakdown really caused me to kind 461 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 1: of re examine, you know, re examine at a very 462 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 1: personal level. Okay, how am I, like I know about 463 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,400 Speaker 1: this stuff generally, but how am I applying this to myself? 464 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,679 Speaker 1: And also to realize that so much of the productivity 465 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:20,439 Speaker 1: advice that's out there is really not incorporating kind of 466 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 1: what we're talking about now, right. It's not incorporating time 467 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 1: for rest, it's not incorporating time for creative thinking. Right. 468 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:32,120 Speaker 1: It's this very like efficiency oriented, like got to go, go, 469 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 1: go faster, faster, faster type of mentality. Right. So it 470 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 1: really caused me to re examine that, but to kind 471 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 1: of get down to brass tacks. I'll give you a 472 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 1: very like specific example of you know, having a very 473 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: busy day. You know, I used to work probably from 474 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: about eight thirty to seven would be more like my 475 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 1: normal startup schedule. But one of the things that I 476 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 1: would do, and this kind of goes back to that 477 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: what we were talking about earlier about you know, consuming 478 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 1: ideas are putting things in your brain is I live 479 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:03,879 Speaker 1: in New York City, so I used to take the 480 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: subway to work every day, and you know, take the 481 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: subway home, and most people commute, right, and during your commute, 482 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 1: what most of us do is we listen to the radio, 483 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,120 Speaker 1: or we listen to a podcast, if we play video 484 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: game on our phones. Right, we're like doing something. And 485 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 1: that is a great time actually to consider not doing 486 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,400 Speaker 1: anything and to opening up your mind and just kind 487 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: of letting it wander. Because there's some really interesting research 488 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 1: specifically related to brainstorming that shows that people are more 489 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,439 Speaker 1: effective at brainstorming when they're tired. And part of that 490 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:40,959 Speaker 1: is because the sort of theory goes that it's kind 491 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: of like your inner critic is kind of like taking 492 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 1: a nap, and so you know, you're able to make 493 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,919 Speaker 1: connections that you normally wouldn't otherwise make because your critical 494 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:51,400 Speaker 1: brain would kind of be like no, no, no, we don't 495 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 1: do it that way, right, And so actually, when you're 496 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 1: tired is a really good time for being open to 497 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: creative insight. And so that in particular, when you're commuting 498 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: home after a long day, when you feel a little 499 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 1: bit tired and you're kind of like, oh, maybe I 500 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: just want to like listen to something, you know, or 501 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 1: maybe I just want to read a book. It's actually 502 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: a great time to not do anything and kind of 503 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: see what percolates up and just let your mind wander. 504 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: So that's one way, you know, if you have a 505 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: really busy schedule, to take something that you're already doing 506 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 1: that you have to do anyways, and you know, kind 507 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,359 Speaker 1: of open up and create a little space for rest 508 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 1: and relaxation and creativity. 509 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 2: I love that example. That's very cool. And we've mentioned 510 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 2: your podcast Harry Slowly a couple of times in this episode, 511 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,160 Speaker 2: and I want to delve into that a little bit. 512 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,679 Speaker 2: I was listening to one of your mini meditations this 513 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 2: morning at the GEM actually about maintenance, and on that 514 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,640 Speaker 2: episode you talked about how it takes about twenty hours 515 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,679 Speaker 2: worth of work to produce a single episode. And for 516 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,719 Speaker 2: those that haven't listened to Harry Slowly, firstly, you should 517 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 2: because there's some brilliant interviews on it. But it is 518 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 2: an interview based podcast like this one, and I'm curious, like, 519 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,159 Speaker 2: what is the work, like what goes on behind the 520 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 2: scenes for you in in creating an episode for Harry Slowly. 521 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 1: Well, I think you know, probably not anything that's super 522 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,880 Speaker 1: surprising to you, but I tend to you know. Obviously, 523 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 1: there's the you know, research of you know, who is 524 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 1: you know, who are you going to select to be 525 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 1: on the episode? And I try to only choose people 526 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 1: whose work I am deeply familiar with or feel very 527 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 1: passionately about, so people I'm quite intimately familiar with on 528 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,119 Speaker 1: some level. And then there's you know a lot of 529 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:41,919 Speaker 1: the research leading up to the interview, conducting the interview itself. 530 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:44,719 Speaker 1: But then I do a lot of you know, just 531 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 1: like a lot of editing and fine tuning on the 532 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 1: back end. So after every interview, I have a producer 533 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 1: who I work with, but I create a script for 534 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: every episode, so I basically I go through, you know, 535 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 1: do the edit personally, and then kind of tell him, 536 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:01,399 Speaker 1: you know, what I want to edit out, what I 537 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,680 Speaker 1: want to keep in. Then there's writing, you know that 538 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: I always kind of put a lot of effort into 539 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: the frame up and kind of having some sort of 540 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 1: like thoughtful takeaway at the end, you know, and writing 541 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 1: all of that stuff, recording all of that stuff. And 542 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: I actually also do like very kind of comprehensive show notes, 543 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 1: you know, So all of the you know, if we 544 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 1: touch on any studies or research or articles, going through 545 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: and like linking to all of that stuff, and you know, 546 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: really noting down what are all of the kind of 547 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 1: takeaways from the conversation. And I'm definitely like a you know, 548 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 1: recovering perfectionist, So I do all of these things with 549 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: like a very high, you know, a very high level 550 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 1: of like detail and wanting everything to be like kind 551 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: of super high quality. And and yeah, and I mean, 552 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 1: you know, just doing all doing all of that stuff 553 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: takes a long time. And one of the points that 554 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 1: I make in the particular episode that you're talking about 555 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: is that, you know, when with any creative project, you know, 556 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: in that case obviously talking about a podcast, but you know, 557 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 1: you just you just never know how long something is 558 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: going to take, you know, until you do it, and 559 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: then until you do it many many times. And so 560 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: what I talk about in that particular episode is that, 561 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 1: you know, it's a really how do I maintain This 562 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 1: is a question that I'm kind of constantly asking myself 563 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: before I embark on, you know, a new creative project, 564 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 1: and then during and kind of after, as I start 565 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: to understand what the time commitment really means, because often 566 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: what you think the time commitment is going to be 567 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 1: and what the time commitment ends up being, you know, 568 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: might be, might be quite different. And so in fact, 569 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 1: you know, I made the change with the second season 570 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 1: of my podcast. The time commitment was you know, I 571 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: wanted the podcast to take up about thirty percent of 572 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: my time. It was taking up maybe more like fifty 573 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: percent of my time. And so what I decided to 574 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: do was release an episode every other week for the 575 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: new season, you know, rather than every week to kind 576 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: of you know, get that, get that back into balance. 577 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: And of course, you know, it's kind of a tough decision, 578 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: but you know, I think you kind of have to 579 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 1: make decisions like that and have that level of consciousness 580 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: about how much time you're spending on different things if 581 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: you want to you know, be able to find any 582 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: type of kind of balance and you know, a rhythm 583 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: that kind of feels comfortable and feels like you're going 584 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 1: to be able to maintain it rather than eventually burn out. 585 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 2: I'm in deep admiration of that decision, being someone that 586 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 2: puts out a weekly podcast myself and two episodes a week, 587 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 2: which I think when I started I definitely underestimated. Yes, yes, 588 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 2: I might be rethinking that for twenty nineteen, but I 589 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 2: kind of I love that. It's sort of it kind 590 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 2: of reminds me and I, you know, I hope this 591 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 2: was like one of the intens of like another episode 592 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 2: I listened to Harry Slowly that was around this content 593 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 2: concept of tender discipline, which I really liked it, And 594 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 2: I'm wondering, can you explain what that's about the people 595 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 2: that haven't heard that episode and how you use it 596 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 2: in your own life? 597 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: You know, I think in general, it's a little bit 598 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 1: pushing back on this idea what I mentioned earlier, right, 599 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: this sort of we have this very kind of you know, 600 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 1: hard driving I would say, even very masculine idea about productivity, right, 601 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 1: that it's all about like efficiency and it's all about 602 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: doing things as quickly as possible. But I think, particularly 603 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: when you're doing work that demands any type of creativity, 604 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 1: which honestly is some aspect of most types of work 605 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 1: demands some type of creativity, that approach is not really 606 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 1: effective because creativity resists efficiency, right, The creative process just 607 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: kind of goes at its own pace, like no matter 608 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: what you do, and so the idea of tender discipline 609 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 1: is really about I mean, it's really about, honestly, like 610 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: being a little bit more forgiving with yourself about you know, 611 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:16,959 Speaker 1: how you're going to move through your day, and and 612 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: just trying to take an attitude where you're not really 613 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 1: beating yourself up about you know, things you are or 614 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: are not getting done. And so much of what that 615 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: episode is about is really like sort of a meditation on, 616 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 1: you know, the idea of achievement and being really obsessed 617 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 1: with achievement and being really obsessed with work. The genesis 618 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 1: of that episode was, you know someone I talk about. 619 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 1: I go to visit this healer and she asks me 620 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: this question. She says, who are you without the doing? 621 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: And you know, I'm like a recovering perfectionist type, a overachiever, 622 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 1: And I was like, what is she talking about? I 623 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 1: don't even know what she's talking about. And you know, 624 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 1: that episode kind of sketches me like meditating on that 625 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: question and actually kind of coming to find out what 626 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: the answer was for me personally. But just this this 627 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 1: idea that you know, we are so heavily identified with 628 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: our work, We're so heavily identified with our accomplishments. And 629 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: I would say we're even so heavily identified with this 630 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: idea of speed and efficiency as values which are only 631 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,719 Speaker 1: being reinforced by all of the technology around us, right, 632 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: this idea that everything should be instant and fast and frictionless. Right, 633 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 1: But that's really not how creativity works, and that's really 634 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 1: not how incredible things get made by kind of pressing. Right. 635 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 1: One of the interviews that I did for Harry Slowly 636 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: So with this guy Bill Duggan, and he researches intuition, 637 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: and one of the things he said to me was, 638 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: your best ideas don't come when you demand them, right, 639 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 1: And it's just so true, Like you never have your 640 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: best ideas. You're like hunched over your computer, right, Like, ah, 641 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 1: got to have an idea now, right, Like that's not 642 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,239 Speaker 1: when you get an idea. You know, you get an 643 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 1: idea when you're afer run or you're swimming, or you're 644 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 1: you know, in a conversation with a stranger, or you know, 645 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:20,720 Speaker 1: you're washing your hair in the shower. 646 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 2: Right. 647 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 1: It's these moments of downtime, these moments when you're not 648 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 1: like pressing on yourself and like demanding some type of result. 649 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:34,960 Speaker 1: That's when the creativity comes. And so that idea of 650 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 1: tender discipline is really about one, you know, kind of 651 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 1: contemplating that idea of who are you without the doing, 652 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,719 Speaker 1: but also just kind of taking a more forgiving and 653 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 1: frankly sort of more organic attitude towards productivity and towards creativity, 654 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 1: and understanding that just like our body, just like our energy, 655 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 1: we have these kind of natural, natural rhythms of like 656 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,879 Speaker 1: effort and rest, and that that needs to be part 657 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 1: of our day and that's okay, and in fact we 658 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:05,600 Speaker 1: work better that way. 659 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 2: That's cool. The final thing I wanted to ask you 660 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 2: about was about reflection, because you come across as this 661 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:19,360 Speaker 2: really deeply reflective person, and I was wondering, like, you know, 662 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 2: how does that work in a typical week for you? 663 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 2: Do you have a ritual around reflection or is it 664 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 2: something that you've just practiced for so long that it's 665 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 2: just to betual. What does that look like for you? 666 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 1: Oh, that's an interesting question. Well, I would say a 667 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:38,319 Speaker 1: couple of different things. So I live in Brooklyn, New York, 668 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,879 Speaker 1: and I live very close to the park. I live 669 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:42,759 Speaker 1: close to Prospect Park, which is sort of like the 670 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,239 Speaker 1: central park of Brooklyn for anyone who doesn't know New 671 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,800 Speaker 1: York or no Brooklyn. And so it's just, you know, 672 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 1: big wonderful park and I go there every morning with 673 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:54,279 Speaker 1: my dog. We go to the park for an hour 674 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 1: every morning, which is a wonderful ritual to have as 675 00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 1: someone who works from home, to be gotten out of 676 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 1: the house and dogs are such joyful beings. But you know, 677 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 1: spending time walking, spending time outdoors is I think a 678 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 1: sort of essential way to make room for reflection. And 679 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: I actually, in fact did an episode of Hurry Slowly. 680 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 1: It was the second episode of the first season, where 681 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,479 Speaker 1: I interviewed this woman, Florence Williams, about spending more time 682 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 1: and nature. And you know, the benefits of spending time 683 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 1: in nature are more or less infinite, you know, but 684 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,840 Speaker 1: one of them is, of course, more time for reflection. 685 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 1: And I think long walks are are great for that 686 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 1: as well. There's a quote from this French philosopher that 687 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 1: I like that walking is the best way to go 688 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 1: slow that's ever been found. But also I do a 689 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,400 Speaker 1: lot of not a lot, but I make a practice 690 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 1: of journaling and I've made in it, I've made sort 691 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 1: of significantly more of an effort with it over the 692 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,560 Speaker 1: past couple of years, and I think I think that 693 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:07,600 Speaker 1: is such a key way to kind of, you know, 694 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 1: give yourself a trigger for reflection and also to track 695 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,279 Speaker 1: your own growth. So I don't like make myself sit 696 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,040 Speaker 1: down at a certain time every day, I just when 697 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:21,759 Speaker 1: I have I actually keep one one journal that's specifically 698 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:23,839 Speaker 1: related to my business and my business ideas, and then 699 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,480 Speaker 1: I have one that's you know, personal and personal ideas. 700 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:31,960 Speaker 1: But you know, as you move through life, right, however 701 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 1: you feel about the past or however you feel about 702 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:35,600 Speaker 1: the future is very much colored by how you feel 703 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 1: in the present moment, right, And if you don't document 704 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,360 Speaker 1: how you feel at those times, it's very likely that 705 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 1: you'll forget it, right because you'll kind of move on 706 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 1: to a new state, and when you think about that 707 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,239 Speaker 1: past state, you won't really remember it accurately. So I 708 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:54,719 Speaker 1: think something that's so powerful about journaling is that it 709 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,920 Speaker 1: really allowed me to see how I was growing and 710 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 1: how I was expand and how I was moving on, 711 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,600 Speaker 1: and also to see, you know, certain behaviors that I 712 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:07,759 Speaker 1: was repeating that were maybe not great behaviors to be repeating, 713 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:09,520 Speaker 1: but the only way that I could see any of 714 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: those patterns, or the only way that I could see 715 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,440 Speaker 1: that I was also breaking out of patterns was by having, 716 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,839 Speaker 1: you know, some type of documentation about what I had 717 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 1: been thinking and how I had been feeling about something. 718 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 1: And so I think journaling is great practice for doing 719 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 1: that and just for really building a higher level of 720 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:34,759 Speaker 1: self awareness. And one of the things that I talk 721 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,839 Speaker 1: about in the RESET course is really the value of 722 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:42,319 Speaker 1: tracking your progress. And I cite a study that was 723 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,759 Speaker 1: done that was really showed that tracking your progress and 724 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 1: meaningful work is an incredibly powerful motivator. And one of 725 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:52,520 Speaker 1: the easiest ways to do that is to just, you know, 726 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 1: get a journal and at the end of your work day, 727 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,440 Speaker 1: take five or ten minutes and write down kind of 728 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:01,960 Speaker 1: your small victories for the day and any small setbacks 729 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 1: you know, and then make some time whatever it is, 730 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:05,799 Speaker 1: once a week, once a month to kind of look 731 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,479 Speaker 1: back on those and it makes you really acknowledge baby 732 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,359 Speaker 1: steps and small progress in a way that you might 733 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 1: not otherwise do. And I think, especially if you're someone 734 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,880 Speaker 1: who's very ambitious, it's really easy to just focus on 735 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:22,400 Speaker 1: what you haven't gotten done rather than what you've gotten done. 736 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,239 Speaker 1: But if you don't recognize those small victories. If you 737 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:29,080 Speaker 1: don't recognize the progress that you're making, you know, you're 738 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:30,759 Speaker 1: going to be more burnout and you're just going to 739 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,239 Speaker 1: be sort of in a poorer mood, and you're not 740 00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:35,880 Speaker 1: really going to be enjoying the journey in the first place. 741 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,240 Speaker 1: And so kind of keeping a journal tracking your progress 742 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,719 Speaker 1: is a great way to kind of make you more 743 00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 1: aware of your growth and also you know, make you 744 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 1: get better at recognizing your progress, which can be really energizing. 745 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:53,800 Speaker 2: I think that's great. I love Teresa Amabel's work around progress, 746 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:55,360 Speaker 2: and I'll make sure I link to that in the 747 00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,719 Speaker 2: show notes because it's just I think it's just so 748 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:02,400 Speaker 2: important and reflections such you're right way to actually be 749 00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,279 Speaker 2: mindful and aware of the progress that you have made 750 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,680 Speaker 2: on meaningful work during the day, which can be easy 751 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:12,720 Speaker 2: to forget. Now, my final question is justlyin if people 752 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,840 Speaker 2: want to read more of your work and also enroll 753 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,960 Speaker 2: in the Reset course and consume your work in any 754 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:20,839 Speaker 2: other ways, where where can they find you? How can 755 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:21,319 Speaker 2: they do that? 756 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,440 Speaker 1: Well, my personal site is at JK g l Ei 757 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,879 Speaker 1: dot com, and you can kind of find the Hurry 758 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:33,400 Speaker 1: Slowly podcast and Reset through that, but the course itself 759 00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:39,000 Speaker 1: is at reset hyphen course dot com and you can 760 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:40,799 Speaker 1: kind of find all the details for that there and 761 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,960 Speaker 1: registration is open I think actually maybe as of today 762 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:48,120 Speaker 1: when this podcast launches. And yeah, the course is really 763 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:52,480 Speaker 1: all about kind of giving people a cosmic tune up 764 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:56,200 Speaker 1: for their workday, and it's going to kick off in 765 00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:58,680 Speaker 1: early January as we're all kind of really in that 766 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,560 Speaker 1: mindset to reinvent the way we work. So I think 767 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:02,880 Speaker 1: it's going to be fun to kick it off at 768 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:03,239 Speaker 1: that point. 769 00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,120 Speaker 2: That sounds so cool. I'm personally very much looking forward 770 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:08,759 Speaker 2: to it. I well, thank you so much for your 771 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,600 Speaker 2: time today, Jocelyn, I really appreciate it. And your puppy 772 00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,520 Speaker 2: stayed very quiet as well, so that's also a good thing. 773 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 1: Yes, he's sleeping under the desk. What a sweet hope. 774 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:23,399 Speaker 2: Hi there. That is it for today's episode. And as 775 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,960 Speaker 2: I mentioned, this is the very last episode for twenty eighteen. 776 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:30,080 Speaker 2: So for those that have been listening to How I 777 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,279 Speaker 2: Work during the last few months, I hope that you've 778 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:34,040 Speaker 2: enjoyed it, and I'm going to be back in the 779 00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:37,320 Speaker 2: new year with brand new episodes. I know for January. 780 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,560 Speaker 2: I'll be replaying some of the more popular episodes from 781 00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:44,560 Speaker 2: the last few months. And as always, if you did 782 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:48,440 Speaker 2: enjoy the show, I would absolutely love it if you 783 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,959 Speaker 2: would take sixty seconds out of your day to write 784 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:55,080 Speaker 2: a review on iTunes, or if you're pushed for time, 785 00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,720 Speaker 2: maybe just give it a star rating, because either way 786 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:02,359 Speaker 2: it's just awesome getting feedback from listeners. And also, if 787 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,400 Speaker 2: you've been enjoying the show, don't keep it a secret. 788 00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:08,759 Speaker 2: Feel free to tell your friends about it. The more 789 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,920 Speaker 2: people that listen to this show, the bigger the impact 790 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:14,440 Speaker 2: that it has, which for me is very very motivating. 791 00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:18,319 Speaker 2: So thank you so much for listening and see you 792 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:18,839 Speaker 2: next year.