1
00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:01,280
Speaker 1: Let's talk about Sam Kerr.

2
00:00:02,160 --> 00:00:04,640
Speaker 2: Pretty extraordinary incident that's going on in London right now.

3
00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:07,080
Speaker 2: We're about to be joined by Ben Downey, who's a

4
00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:10,040
Speaker 2: European correspondent for seven years, so he'll give us the

5
00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:12,639
Speaker 2: updated details on this one. But if you haven't heard

6
00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:15,440
Speaker 2: any of the Sam Curve stuff, from what I understand,

7
00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:18,400
Speaker 2: her and a fiance, Christy Mwis, are in a taxi.

8
00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:22,439
Speaker 2: I believe Sam has had had had a vomit in

9
00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:25,560
Speaker 2: the taxi, which I mean trueth might we've all done it,

10
00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,320
Speaker 2: a bit of motion sickness after you know, after a

11
00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,559
Speaker 2: potentially a poor prawn. You know, I don't feel like

12
00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:34,560
Speaker 2: I don't feel like that's that bad. I think there's

13
00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:36,239
Speaker 2: a there's a bit of a disagreement that goes on

14
00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:39,400
Speaker 2: in the taxi where I think her and Christy are

15
00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:43,120
Speaker 2: refusing to pay a cleaning fee after the vombing the cab.

16
00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:43,840
Speaker 3: Now there's been things.

17
00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:46,680
Speaker 2: It's interesting because then the driver decides, the driver of

18
00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:51,800
Speaker 2: the taxi decides to lock the doors. Yea very scary

19
00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:54,319
Speaker 2: move for two women in a in a cab. That's

20
00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:56,360
Speaker 2: very scary for a text driver to then just lock

21
00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:59,800
Speaker 2: the doors suddenly and his his idea is to drive

22
00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:02,240
Speaker 2: them to a police station because he's worried about them

23
00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:05,480
Speaker 2: refusing to pay the cleaning fee. At that point, Sam

24
00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:09,000
Speaker 2: and the fiance Christy, they're panicking, freaking out. They're worried

25
00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:11,200
Speaker 2: they're getting kidnaped because someone's just locked the doors in

26
00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,760
Speaker 2: a taxi and they start kicking, punching windows, et cetera,

27
00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:15,240
Speaker 2: et cetera.

28
00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:18,120
Speaker 3: And then when they get to the police station, I'm

29
00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:18,720
Speaker 3: pretty sure.

30
00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,200
Speaker 4: By the way, there's like a nearly a distress call

31
00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:23,360
Speaker 4: that goes out from one of their fones because they're

32
00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:24,280
Speaker 4: so scared.

33
00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:28,600
Speaker 2: And understandably, if someone locks the car doors while you're

34
00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:29,200
Speaker 2: in that's terrifying.

35
00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:30,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, well it's false imprisonment. I mean, it's peering it

36
00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,600
Speaker 1: a taxi is not an offense. Locking someone at a cart.

37
00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:35,959
Speaker 3: Is absolutely Then they get into the police station.

38
00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:38,120
Speaker 2: I'm going to play some audio right now because this

39
00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:40,000
Speaker 2: is a big part of this is why this this

40
00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:45,240
Speaker 2: police officer, Stephen Lovell is now suing Sam Kerr because

41
00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:47,760
Speaker 2: he has said he was he was left feeling shocked,

42
00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:52,240
Speaker 2: upset and humiliated after some words that Sam said to him.

43
00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:54,320
Speaker 3: So this is Sam in the police station.

44
00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,960
Speaker 1: Honestly, we have stupid and white.

45
00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:06,440
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm not worried so stupid. I'm over this.

46
00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:10,280
Speaker 1: This is the world problem.

47
00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:14,880
Speaker 2: So he's having issues with that obviously. And so now

48
00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:17,400
Speaker 2: all this stuff's going through the courts and whatnot. But

49
00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:21,640
Speaker 2: we've got Ben Downey here, who's over there in Europe. Benny,

50
00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:25,160
Speaker 2: you're following the court case. Can you tell us any

51
00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:26,200
Speaker 2: recent updates?

52
00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:26,640
Speaker 3: My friends?

53
00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:33,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, so Sam, the most recent update is today in

54
00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:37,120
Speaker 5: the UK. So it's six o'clock local time. Samko is

55
00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,280
Speaker 5: going to take the stand. She's shed along with her

56
00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:42,280
Speaker 5: partner and fellow footballer, Christine Muers, who plays for the

57
00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:44,639
Speaker 5: club West Ham. They're both going to take the stand

58
00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,720
Speaker 5: to defend their actions that night as they plead guilty

59
00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,480
Speaker 5: to not racially plead not guilty to racially harassing that

60
00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:56,240
Speaker 5: police officer. So yesterday what really centered around and legal

61
00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,600
Speaker 5: team zeroed in on this was the discrepancy in the

62
00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:03,440
Speaker 5: police officer's account because that night, where Sam Kerr admits

63
00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,760
Speaker 5: she called that police officer stupid and white, well, he

64
00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:09,840
Speaker 5: made a statement and in that statement he made no

65
00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:13,400
Speaker 5: mention of any harm or hurt he suffered. But eleven

66
00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:17,240
Speaker 5: months later, when the Crown prosecutors here in London didn't

67
00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,200
Speaker 5: have enough evidence to charge Kerr was racially harassing him. Well,

68
00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:23,000
Speaker 5: he made a second statement and that's when he said

69
00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,600
Speaker 5: it left him hurt and upset, and that discrepancy is

70
00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:29,799
Speaker 5: what they said, was what Kerrz lawyers said that they

71
00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:33,239
Speaker 5: basically concocted this evidence to get that charge over the line.

72
00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,200
Speaker 5: Now the officer denies this, but he did admit on

73
00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:38,760
Speaker 5: the stand that he was determined to pursue Sam Kerkr,

74
00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:43,720
Speaker 5: Matilda's captain through the courts. So that was probably the

75
00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,800
Speaker 5: biggest thing that the officer that Sam Kerr had called

76
00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,000
Speaker 5: stupid and white, who claims he racially agrees in this matter,

77
00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,640
Speaker 5: he basically had delivered two different sets of accounts and

78
00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,320
Speaker 5: changed it so they could have enough evidence to pursue

79
00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:57,920
Speaker 5: this charge against her.

80
00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,360
Speaker 1: Hey been a couple of things that I've kind of read.

81
00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:02,400
Speaker 4: I'd just love to hear whether they're clarified or not,

82
00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,720
Speaker 4: because we're obviously Tim Kerr in the studio. First of all,

83
00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:08,080
Speaker 4: did she call him a see you next tuesday in court?

84
00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:08,600
Speaker 1: The other day?

85
00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,280
Speaker 5: Not in court? No, definitely, not in court.

86
00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:18,680
Speaker 1: I think I think that I think that that's it

87
00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:19,880
Speaker 1: that has that has been.

88
00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,279
Speaker 6: So there's yeah, so that that that that that term

89
00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,320
Speaker 6: was used on a police recording, wasn't at the police officer,

90
00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,440
Speaker 6: but that was used against the cabby.

91
00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:32,320
Speaker 4: The other thing that I that I also saw, which

92
00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,760
Speaker 4: I thought was very funny, was so she's she's vomited

93
00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:40,960
Speaker 4: in the taxi and apparently to prove to the police

94
00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:44,480
Speaker 4: officer in the police station that like, it wasn't about

95
00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,480
Speaker 4: cleaning up the vomit in the cab. She's opened her

96
00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,479
Speaker 4: bank account and flashed the police officer how much money

97
00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:51,320
Speaker 4: was just.

98
00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:54,120
Speaker 1: To say, mate, it's not about the cash. I could

99
00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:55,400
Speaker 1: do this right now.

100
00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, she definitely did that.

101
00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,840
Speaker 2: More serious question now, So the taxi driver in all

102
00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:07,039
Speaker 2: of this, I find what he did like horrific, locking

103
00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:10,359
Speaker 2: the doors and effectively making Sam and a fiance a

104
00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:11,400
Speaker 2: prisoner in a car.

105
00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:13,640
Speaker 3: Is he getting punished at all through all of this?

106
00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:20,080
Speaker 5: No, so like, and the thing about this cab is

107
00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,599
Speaker 5: that what was made clear yesterday is that he said that,

108
00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,520
Speaker 5: and according to the police that he asked Sam stutit

109
00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:29,440
Speaker 5: in the cab, He's called the police and then he's

110
00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:31,719
Speaker 5: driven to the station. But Sam's version of events is

111
00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,160
Speaker 5: that he's just directly driven to the station, and at

112
00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,120
Speaker 5: no point was it ever communicate to them that he

113
00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:37,960
Speaker 5: had called police or that the police had told to

114
00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,480
Speaker 5: go there. Now, the thing to be clear is though

115
00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:43,480
Speaker 5: that Sam here is not on trial for vomiting a

116
00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,520
Speaker 5: cab the cab. He's not on trial for kidnapping or

117
00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:49,359
Speaker 5: deprivation of liberty Sam and even on trial for calling

118
00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:51,800
Speaker 5: the police officers stupid and white. The only thing she's

119
00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:55,160
Speaker 5: on trial for is intending to harm him by using

120
00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,560
Speaker 5: the words stupid and white. And so there's a really

121
00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,359
Speaker 5: narrow scope that the police can try and arrestaur on. You, Like,

122
00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,320
Speaker 5: what was she just exasperated us through a one hour

123
00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,040
Speaker 5: interview when she said there's comments at her wits end?

124
00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:08,880
Speaker 5: Or was she really trying to villify him and the

125
00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,000
Speaker 5: only way they can get a condition across the line,

126
00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:13,520
Speaker 5: if they can improve, she was trying to villify and

127
00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:14,840
Speaker 5: harass this police officer.

128
00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:16,760
Speaker 4: So, Ben, this is just one of the couples. So

129
00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:18,360
Speaker 4: I think this is the sticking point for me. This

130
00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:19,600
Speaker 4: is what we've been talking about in the studio, in

131
00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:23,920
Speaker 4: the in the song. So for me, if we're talking

132
00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,159
Speaker 4: about like I assume that there's there's like a racial

133
00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,560
Speaker 4: thing going on here, which I think is as I

134
00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:30,880
Speaker 4: said to you before, I'm not sure if you're here,

135
00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,360
Speaker 4: but what he was saying, who's on this guy's team?

136
00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:35,920
Speaker 4: And I think that the fascinating thing is that there

137
00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:38,960
Speaker 4: probably are people on his team who are going like, oh, well,

138
00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,320
Speaker 4: you know, we're not if we're not allowed to use

139
00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,680
Speaker 4: you know, racial stereo stereotyping language, you know, with people

140
00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:46,040
Speaker 4: of color, why should they be able to do it

141
00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,120
Speaker 4: with white people? Which I look, I don't think it

142
00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:49,880
Speaker 4: needs to be said, that's the dumbest thing in the world.

143
00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,800
Speaker 4: But I do think what's really interesting about it is like,

144
00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:58,720
Speaker 4: if there's legislation which says you cannot stereotype or racially

145
00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,320
Speaker 4: brand somebody because of their skin color or where they

146
00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,680
Speaker 4: come from, the court is going to have to decide

147
00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,080
Speaker 4: in some sort of a way whether or not you

148
00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:12,360
Speaker 4: can be racist towards a white person, which.

149
00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:14,640
Speaker 1: I feel is like the crux of his argument.

150
00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:21,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's it's interesting it and you know Samka actually

151
00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:23,240
Speaker 5: responds to this. Yesterday would play the second recording of

152
00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,160
Speaker 5: a police interview, one that hasn't been there's only a

153
00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,800
Speaker 5: bit recently been released where a second officer asks her, Hey,

154
00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:30,520
Speaker 5: do you know that if you call someone white you

155
00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,800
Speaker 5: can be racist? And Samka in this interview says, well,

156
00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,320
Speaker 5: I can understand you could probably interpreted anything can be

157
00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,520
Speaker 5: interpreted as racist if you twisted enough effectively and paraphrasing

158
00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:44,880
Speaker 5: her there, but you know it's well, another thing I

159
00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:47,840
Speaker 5: should point out as well is that, like Samko has

160
00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:50,360
Speaker 5: also explained to this cop, you know, you're a man.

161
00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:51,800
Speaker 5: You don't know what it's like to be a woman

162
00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:53,440
Speaker 5: in the back of a cab being driven around by

163
00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:55,800
Speaker 5: a bloke who's not telling you where you're going. Now,

164
00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:59,440
Speaker 5: the cop hasn't charged her for you know, a sexist

165
00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,480
Speaker 5: remarkment from calling him a man for not knowing what

166
00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:07,880
Speaker 5: it's like, you know, likeem is like she's trying to

167
00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:14,160
Speaker 5: explain in circumstance, you know, you're not understanding where I'm

168
00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:18,080
Speaker 5: coming from. Yes, obviously sees it very differently. Yes, yes,

169
00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,800
Speaker 5: this is exactly you put it correctly. It's all turning

170
00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:24,480
Speaker 5: on the interpretation whether she's trying to harm this police officer,

171
00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:25,280
Speaker 5: which could.

172
00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:27,960
Speaker 4: Make it even bigger because Tommy our button pushing here,

173
00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,800
Speaker 4: we're saying before we listen to the audio again, she says,

174
00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:34,000
Speaker 4: you're stupid and white. She doesn't say you're stupid and

175
00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:37,160
Speaker 4: white in the same run of words, which is just

176
00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:39,280
Speaker 4: like a way to brand him for being white. She's

177
00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,560
Speaker 4: trying to say, you don't get where I'm coming from.

178
00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:48,439
Speaker 4: I'm a colored woman, you're stupid and white. You don't

179
00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,280
Speaker 4: you can't empathize with me, which I think is what

180
00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,080
Speaker 4: it feels as if that's kind of what she's trying

181
00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:54,319
Speaker 4: to say.

182
00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:56,400
Speaker 5: Well, her next words, sorry to cut you off, but

183
00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:58,480
Speaker 5: like her next word is like, this is the world problem.

184
00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,960
Speaker 5: But I think she's talking to yes, like she would argue,

185
00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:05,840
Speaker 5: she would argue, I'm talking to a global issue around

186
00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:08,760
Speaker 5: like power structures. This is what legal have said out.

187
00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:11,800
Speaker 5: She might have poorly expressed this, but that, in her

188
00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,560
Speaker 5: legal team's view, is how she's trying to express this view.

189
00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,160
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Hey, Benny, before we do, let you go, Like,

190
00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,160
Speaker 2: what sort of punishment is she facing if she is

191
00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:21,280
Speaker 2: found guilty of this?

192
00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:24,280
Speaker 3: Like is this like is this prison time? Is this

193
00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:24,800
Speaker 3: a fine?

194
00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:24,920
Speaker 6: Like?

195
00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:25,640
Speaker 1: What is it?

196
00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,400
Speaker 5: So punishment hasn't been directly discussed in the trial, and

197
00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,719
Speaker 5: like the head sentence of the maximum penalty for this

198
00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:38,280
Speaker 5: could see ole time. This is nowhere near I mean

199
00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,800
Speaker 5: in Benjamin Downey King's Council talking here like I'm not

200
00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:46,199
Speaker 5: a law degree, Like this is not approaching that threshold.

201
00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:48,840
Speaker 5: This is we're talking a fine and stuff on the wrist.

202
00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:51,520
Speaker 5: For she's not interested in the fine, she's not interested

203
00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:53,199
Speaker 5: in the time. She's interested in clearing her name.

204
00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:55,640
Speaker 1: That's why she's here, that's why she's still.

205
00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:56,800
Speaker 5: Doing and today we'll hear from her.

206
00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:58,920
Speaker 4: That's awesome, Ben, But hopefully we can speak to you

207
00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:01,920
Speaker 4: again tomorrow just to hear exactly what Sam curse ex

208
00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:03,360
Speaker 4: and I'm sure they'll be passed everyone's bed time a

209
00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,400
Speaker 4: little bit later on. Ben Downey seven years European correspondent.

210
00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:07,800
Speaker 4: Ben's been great to have you on the show, Mate,