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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Family's podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: once answers mew.

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Speaker 1: Last year, I joined with Madonna King, Rebecca Sparrow, Michelle Mitchell,

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Speaker 1: Michael kargreg and others to push for a mobile phone

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Speaker 1: ban in public schools in Queensland. The Education Minister Grace

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Speaker 1: Grace was seemingly backing away from the idea after what

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Speaker 1: was loosely called community consultation, and I felt, along with others,

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Speaker 1: that it was time to raise my voice and make

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Speaker 1: some noise and we were successful. Someone who joined the

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Speaker 1: push and really helped to get that band across the

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Speaker 1: line was Danny Alachi, founder of the Heads Up Alliance,

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Speaker 1: and Danny joins me now with a bigger, tougher mission

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Speaker 1: and a call for help. So Danny, welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: You've achieved remarkable success in getting phones banned from public

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Speaker 1: schools right across Australia. Tell me a bit about what

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Speaker 1: motivated you to start Heads Up Alliance and pursue this

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Speaker 1: with this gritty determination to make a change.

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Speaker 3: Well, first of all, thank you Justine having us on

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Speaker 3: this podcast.

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Speaker 2: So we're very, very thrilled to be here.

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Speaker 3: What motivated the Heads Up Alliance was my wife and I.

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Speaker 3: We gave our daughter a phone when she was around

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Speaker 3: CenTra eleven years old, back in twenty twenty, and we

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Speaker 3: saw what changes it made to her, to her personality,

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Speaker 3: to her childhood, and we walked back from that decision.

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Speaker 3: At the time, it was a very difficult thing to do.

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Speaker 3: So what we did was we reached out by the

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Speaker 3: families in her grade, created a little alliance of families

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Speaker 3: who were committed to delaying social media smartphones for a

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Speaker 3: few extra years. And because we knew that walking that

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Speaker 3: path alone was going to be very, very difficult. Every

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Speaker 3: child comes home and says, I'm the only one that

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Speaker 3: doesn't have an iPhone or whatever. So what we wanted

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Speaker 3: to do was break that, break that model, and show

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Speaker 3: our children that they weren't alone. So that's the genesis

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Speaker 3: of Heads Up Alone. We're out kind of encouraging other

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Speaker 3: families and other schools to do something similar. Now, along

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Speaker 3: with that main mission, along the way, we've fallen into

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Speaker 3: campaign such as banning phones from school and as you've noted,

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Speaker 3: we were involved in that in New South Wales, assisted

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Speaker 3: you and others in Queensland and assisted some Catholic schools

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Speaker 3: here in Sydney as well, and we just think that

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Speaker 3: it's such a no brand of policy and that every

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Speaker 3: school in the country should be on board.

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Speaker 1: So Danny, that's the mission. I want to talk about

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Speaker 1: that in just a moment, but first let me pick

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Speaker 1: up on what you've just highlighted in terms of how

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Speaker 1: you got this started. You've done the unpopular and very

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Speaker 1: hard thing. Probably made your eleven year old hate you

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Speaker 1: because you took a device away that had already been

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Speaker 1: handed over. I can imagine that was a tricky enough,

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Speaker 1: But what I really want to zero in on is

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Speaker 1: you had to do hard heavy lifting within your community.

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Speaker 1: To do what you did requires reaching out, forming an

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Speaker 1: alliance with other families and convincing them that they should

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Speaker 1: get on board with your mission, your idea, and keep

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Speaker 1: their kids off phones. And then you as parents are

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Speaker 1: going to be able to work together ongoingly create these relationships.

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Speaker 1: Had this thing that I don't think we have enough

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Speaker 1: of anymore, this thing called community to make that work.

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Speaker 1: Can you just describe that briefly for me? How did

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Speaker 1: that work out for you?

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Speaker 2: It worked out very very well.

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Speaker 3: Justin we found that a lot of parents are sitting

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Speaker 3: at home facing the very same issues that we were,

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Speaker 3: but thinking that because everybody else had given their children's phones,

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Speaker 3: and because the kids come home and say to us,

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Speaker 3: wed Mum, if I don't get this phone, I'm going

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Speaker 3: to be completely isolated from my friends. And that's a

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Speaker 3: very powerful argument for a parent, and the only way

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Speaker 3: that we could overcome it was to actually reach out

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Speaker 3: and speak out and form that community, as you said,

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Speaker 3: and it worked very very well, and we're going now

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Speaker 3: four or five years strong. My eldest is now almost

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Speaker 3: fifteen years of age. We've managed to keep her away

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Speaker 3: from what we consider toxic tech, that is social media.

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Speaker 3: She's not having to contend with dozens of pings per hour,

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Speaker 3: constant demands on her attention, and we've done it in

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Speaker 3: a community setting. And because it works, we felt that

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Speaker 3: we couldn't keep it to ourselves. We have to let

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Speaker 3: other parents know that it's such a simple solution to

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Speaker 3: a problem that almost every twenty first century family is facing.

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Speaker 1: If I'm a typical Australian parent listening to this conversation,

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Speaker 1: I want to know how your fifteen year old communicates

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Speaker 1: with her friends, given that she's not using social media.

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Speaker 1: Because this, this is the sticking point. This is why

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Speaker 1: so many parents do actually shrug their shoulders and say, Okay,

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Speaker 1: well I guess, I guess if you want to be

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Speaker 1: a human it's necessary.

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Speaker 3: Well it absolutely isn't necessary, because humanity survived and childhood

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Speaker 3: was doing fine up until about fifteen years ago. So

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Speaker 3: our daughter is very, very well socially connected. Anytime she

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Speaker 3: wants to speak to her friends, and we encourage her

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Speaker 3: all the time. Pick up dad's phone, pick up mom's phone,

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Speaker 3: make a phone call, get them on FaceTime, get your

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Speaker 3: friends together on a three way chat. And then if

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Speaker 3: she wants to communicate with on a school night on

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Speaker 3: the weekend, rather than messaging each other, how about you

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Speaker 3: organize it. Trips down to the local shopping center and

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Speaker 3: go out for lunch, take a ride, and go watch

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Speaker 3: a theater show. We'll do something in real life. So

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Speaker 3: in saying not yet to the smartphone, we're actually to

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Speaker 3: so many other and best.

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Speaker 1: The think you just described my childhood, I feel like

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Speaker 1: I'm getting a glimpse into what childhood once was, and

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Speaker 1: I'm feeling a bit nostalgic for it. Let's move on

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Speaker 1: to your current focus. You current focus given that public

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Speaker 1: schools across the nation have banned phones during school hours.

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Speaker 1: Now you're looking at Catholic and independent schools, there are

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Speaker 1: a whole lot of schools who have not, who clearly

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Speaker 1: have not universally adopted phone bands. What challenges are you

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Speaker 1: encountering in advocating for a phone free policy in these

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Speaker 1: sectors and how you're trying to overcome this right.

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Speaker 3: So, educating for the removal of phones in the public

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Speaker 3: sector was a lot easier because we knew where we

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Speaker 3: needed to go. We needed to speak to the premiers.

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Speaker 3: We needed to speak to the education ministers and the

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Speaker 3: departments of education, and once they came on board, once

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Speaker 3: the premier said yep, I see the merit in this,

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Speaker 3: and they instituted that rule, it became universal for all

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Speaker 3: public schools in that particular state. Now the situation for

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Speaker 3: Catholic and independent school is a little bit different, of course,

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Speaker 3: because they tend to be more self governing, at least

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Speaker 3: at least self governing at the level of the system. So,

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Speaker 3: for example, in Catholic schools, you might at best have

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Speaker 3: a school that's following the policy at a regional level.

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Speaker 3: So we have to reach out to a lot more people.

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Speaker 3: In this case, we've reached out to the National Catholic

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Speaker 3: Education Commission and Independent School Schools Australia.

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Speaker 2: What they may not have direct control.

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Speaker 3: They are the peak bodies for Catholic and independent schools

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Speaker 3: and we believe where there's a world, there's a way.

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Speaker 3: We're hoping that what they will do is bring all

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Speaker 3: their heads of well being together and all principles together

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Speaker 3: and say, right, let's have a conversation. It's happened in

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Speaker 3: the public sector. It's worked remarkably well. Now we know

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Speaker 3: that most perhaps perhaps most that many of you already

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Speaker 3: have policies in place, but not all, and let's just.

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Speaker 2: Make sure that every school in this country is phone

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Speaker 2: for it.

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Speaker 1: Danny, this work looking to create a consistent phone free

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Speaker 1: environment in all Australian schools makes a lot of sense.

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Speaker 1: People listen to this conversation and say, well, yeah, of course.

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Speaker 1: There was an article published just recently on the ABC

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Speaker 1: News website looking at how mobile phones are pretty much

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Speaker 1: banned across the country. But there is a little bit

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Speaker 1: of a challenge. There's a little bit of an issue,

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Speaker 1: and that is that right now we don't have the empirical,

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Speaker 1: peer reviewed evidence that this is going to make a

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Speaker 1: difference anecdotally, and the ABC article pointed this out or

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Speaker 1: at case study level. We know that behavior challenges seem

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Speaker 1: to be reducing, and we know that bullying, at least

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Speaker 1: during school hours is reducing terms of academic outcomes and

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Speaker 1: in terms of mental health outcomes. We just don't have

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Speaker 1: the peer reviewed evidence. What's your response to that. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you and I, by the way, we're singing from the

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Speaker 1: same song sheet. Just because the evidence isn't there empirically

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean that this is not worth doing. But until

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Speaker 1: we have the evidence, and it's very very hard to

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Speaker 1: turn this into an experiment, how are you trying to

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Speaker 1: sell this to schools and even to parents who are saying, well,

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Speaker 1: show me the evidence, and if the evidence isn't there,

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Speaker 1: then why should we do this?

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Speaker 2: Justin I'm extremely grateful with this question.

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Speaker 3: As you point out, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence that

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Speaker 3: the behaviors are changing, even just just yesterday or a

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Speaker 3: few days ago. The South Australian premier who introduced to

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Speaker 3: own bands just last year have put out a message

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Speaker 3: to say the evidence is in down fifty plus percent,

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Speaker 3: violence relating incidents down policy compliance issues down you can

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Speaker 3: you can jump on his Twitter and see and see

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Speaker 3: how he's doing because he's so excited that as to

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Speaker 3: the success of this policy. But in terms of academics

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Speaker 3: and the question of well, where is the science to

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Speaker 3: show that by removing thrones from the schools our academics

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Speaker 3: are going to improve? My question is this, why is

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Speaker 3: it for people like you and I justin to prove

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Speaker 3: our case. Isn't the onus on those who introduce thrones

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Speaker 3: into the school environment.

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Speaker 2: Or those who want that to remain.

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Speaker 3: The case to show up that the introduction of the

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Speaker 3: phones is a net benefit for our children's academics, behavior, socialization,

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Speaker 3: or whatever the case may be. You don't get to

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Speaker 3: introduce a foreign phenomenon into the school and let it

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Speaker 3: run through for ten years and icdotally see that it's

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Speaker 3: not working, but then say to people like myself and yourself,

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Speaker 3: but you know, we can only get removed once you

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Speaker 3: show us scientifically that it's a net positive. The shoe

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Speaker 3: should be on the other foot, is what i'd say, Justin,

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Speaker 3: And as a scientist, I'm really curious to think to

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Speaker 3: hear your opinion on that view, Danny.

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Speaker 1: When I listened to say that I'm reflecting on Kevin

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Speaker 1: Rudd's education revolution, where laptops were introduced into classrooms right

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Speaker 1: around the nation, because it was going to change everything.

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Speaker 1: It was going to literally upscale our kids and help

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Speaker 1: them to become a tech savvy and they'll all become

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Speaker 1: coders and programmers and will be world leading innovators. And

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Speaker 1: I feel like that was a bit of a trojan

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Speaker 1: horse that has allowed all of this other tech to

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Speaker 1: come in. Now we're talking about measuring engagement for children

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Speaker 1: in the classroom based on what they're doing on their devices.

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Speaker 1: This is going to sound a bit luodite ish, but

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Speaker 1: I we've got enough evidence that shows when screens have

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Speaker 1: been introduced into a into a learning environment, the quality

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Speaker 1: of the learning, the quality of the tension decreases. We've

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Speaker 1: also got evidence that show that learning and processing happens

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Speaker 1: at a shallower level. And we've got a whole lot

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Speaker 1: of research that shows that when people are using a

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Speaker 1: pen and paper and writing stuff down. Number one, they're

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Speaker 1: developing the skill of writing the capacity to do that

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Speaker 1: particular thing. But number two, the learning is deeper, the

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Speaker 1: processing is deeper, and things go better. I look way

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Speaker 1: back at the way so many embraced this education revolution.

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Speaker 1: It makes me think of something that cal Newport wrote

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Speaker 1: in his book Deep Work when he said, describing the

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Speaker 1: benefits from a programming point of view or a coding

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Speaker 1: point of view of a child having access to a

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Speaker 1: laptop or a tablet is kind of like giving a

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Speaker 1: kid a Tonker truck and saying, well, this will help

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Speaker 1: them to become a mechanic.

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Speaker 2: Right. I absolutely agree with everything you just said, Justin.

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Speaker 3: I think we've rushed headlong into introducing things into the

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Speaker 3: school and learning environment without an evidence to day.

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Speaker 2: So I don't think it's for us.

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Speaker 3: Now to have to answer to those who say, well,

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Speaker 3: where's your evidence that we need to get rid of them.

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Speaker 3: I think we're getting a little bit. We're putting the

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Speaker 3: cart before the horse. Yes, and our naplan results came

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Speaker 3: out nationally a few days ago, and the results are atrocious.

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Speaker 3: Something needs to happen, and it needs to happen quickly, I.

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Speaker 1: Think, Danny just In wrapping up, Jonathan Hate has written

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Speaker 1: his book Anxious Generation. I know you've read it. I've

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Speaker 1: certainly spent quite a lot of time in it as well.

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Speaker 1: Highlights the importance of a play based childhood rather than

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Speaker 1: the screen based childhood that our children are experiencing in

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Speaker 1: homes and schools around the country today. How do you

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Speaker 1: see this phone ban that you're pushing for universally across

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Speaker 1: all independent, Catholic and public schools in this nation. How

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Speaker 1: do you see that contribute to the goal and fostering

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Speaker 1: healthier childhood experiences.

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Speaker 3: Jonathan Height recommends more than that. Jonathan Height recommends that

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Speaker 3: parents keep their children off social media until at least

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Speaker 3: the age of sixteen years. He recommends that we don't

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Speaker 3: even give them smartphones until at least the age of

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Speaker 3: fourteen years. Now, I understand that's a tough message, and

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Speaker 3: not everybody is on board with the heads upper line message,

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Speaker 3: which is just that to band together and say not

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Speaker 3: yet to social media and smartphones. But I think we

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Speaker 3: can all agree they're giving our children a six hour

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Speaker 3: break each day when they're at school so that they

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Speaker 3: can socialize and listen to the lesson. Being taught without

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Speaker 3: distraction is a pretty you know, as Dr Michael Cargrex says.

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Speaker 3: He says he calls it a no brainer from the

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Speaker 3: University of the Bleeding Obvious. I think he's right when

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Speaker 3: he says that and if we can at least achieve

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Speaker 3: that for all our children, I think we go a

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Speaker 3: long way to helping them turn them to the adults.

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Speaker 2: We want them to become.

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Speaker 1: Daniel Lachi, founder of the Heads Up Alliance. If people

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Speaker 1: are on board and want to be involved, want to

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Speaker 1: know more, where do they need to be.

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Speaker 3: We've got a link treat site, so link tr dot

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Speaker 3: ee forward slash their heads Up for Lives and you can.

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Speaker 2: Find a lot more about us there.

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Speaker 1: That's Danny Alachi, founder of the Heads Up Alliance, talking

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Speaker 1: to us from Sydney about doing more to help our

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Speaker 1: kids to be healthy and stay away from screens for

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Speaker 1: as long as possible. Check out the website and find

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Speaker 1: out more about the Heads Up Alliance. It's definitely definitely

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Speaker 1: worth being involved. The Happy Family's podcast is produced by

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Speaker 1: Justin Rouland from Bridge Media. If you'd like more information

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Speaker 1: about making your family happier, we'd love for you to

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Speaker 1: visit us at Happy families dot com dot au. Check

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Speaker 1: out our newsletter, sign up and get all the latest

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Speaker 1: info that you need to stay on top of all

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Speaker 1: these issues and make your family happier.