1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: Do you ever feel like you're stuck in an endless 2 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: cycle of work with no time for what truly matters? 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: Meet Tim Duggan, a former CEO who's flipped the script 4 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: on traditional work life balance. After he sold his media company, 5 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:23,799 Speaker 1: Tim didn't just retire to a beach. He reimagined his 6 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: entire approach to work and life. Tim now lives on 7 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 1: an island of Spain, and he has cracked the code 8 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: to working just three days a week while still achieving 9 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: his goals. But how did he get there, and more importantly, 10 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: how can you apply his strategies to your own life. 11 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: In this episode, Tim reveals his unconventional methods for finding 12 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: meaning both in and outside of work, and he shares 13 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: some very practical tips for crafting a career that aligns 14 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: with your core values. Welcome to How I Work, a 15 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: show about habits, rituals, and strategies for optimizing your day. 16 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 1: I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber. In Tim's latest book, 17 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: Work Backwards, he jokes that his surname may as well 18 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: have been from Junkie Tim from Junkie, which was the 19 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: company Tim sold in twenty sixteen, Junkie Media. Tim wrote 20 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 1: about how his self identity was so wrapped up in 21 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: his work, so I wanted to know how on earth 22 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 1: did he go about disentangling it. 23 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 2: It's quite an exotic surname from Junkie. I don't know 24 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 2: what nationality that is, but I was introduced on a 25 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 2: Monday morning in a meeting, this is Tim from Junkie, 26 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 2: And on a Friday night down at the pub, this 27 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 2: is Tim from Junkie. And on Sunday morning, when I'm 28 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 2: on the internet, this is Tim from Junkie. That it 29 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 2: was so much a part of my identity, this business 30 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 2: that I'd spent fifteen years building with my friends, that 31 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 2: I wasn't prepared for how hard the landing was going 32 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 2: to be once I was no longer Tim from Junkie. 33 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 2: It was way harder than I thought, and I didn't 34 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 2: have any pre awareness that I was going to wake 35 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 2: up one day and I left in the middle of COVID. 36 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 2: It was in the peak of COVID. It was in 37 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 2: mid twenty twenty, and my final meeting with all my 38 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 2: staff was a Zoom meeting on my final day, and 39 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 2: it was five o'clock on a Friday afternoon, and I 40 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 2: was talking into the tiny green light that was flashing 41 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 2: on my computer and then we said our goodbyes. This 42 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 2: was our virtual drinks, and I closed my laptop and 43 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:41,920 Speaker 2: I was alone in my home office on a Friday afternoon. 44 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 2: I was like, Oh, this is it. That's the end 45 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 2: of that identity. It was a really, really strange way 46 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 2: to close off that part of my life. Originally my 47 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 2: plan was to do something to shake things up, so 48 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 2: just change my landscape. Changed my mind, and that was 49 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:00,799 Speaker 2: to move overseas. After fifteen plus year have been married 50 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 2: to my business and not been able to move overseas, 51 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 2: and so my husband and I had been planning for 52 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 2: this for years. The decision to sell a business took 53 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 2: a few years. Then we sold the business in twenty sixteen. 54 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 2: I had what's known as an urnout, which means I 55 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 2: had to work for the company that bought us for 56 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 2: three years. I ended up doing that for an extra year, 57 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 2: and then COVID happened, so we jumped into a campavan 58 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 2: and we drove as far as we could, which was 59 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 2: the new South Wales state border because that was all 60 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 2: that was open at the time, and we had six 61 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 2: weeks in a camp of van and then that turned 62 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 2: into six months, so we just started driving and we 63 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 2: didn't stop. And it was during that moment where I 64 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 2: had a change of scenery, I had a change of routine. 65 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 2: I had a change of mindset, a change of responsibility. 66 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 2: That was when I kind of started to rebuild and 67 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 2: think about who I was if I wasn't from junkie. 68 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: Were there conscious steps that you took, like say, during 69 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: that six months to really reform your identity. 70 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 2: I didn't realize how discombobulating it was going to be, 71 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 2: so I consciously changed my routine. I consciously changed what 72 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:15,119 Speaker 2: I was seeing in terms of the landscape in front 73 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 2: of me. I actually wish that I had gone into 74 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 2: it with some kind of plan, because I'm very organized 75 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:23,280 Speaker 2: and I like plans, and I like experiments, and I 76 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 2: like writing things down. I was caught off guard with 77 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 2: how much of my identity was caught up with my work. 78 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 2: I needed to have something that made me feel like 79 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,919 Speaker 2: I was still contributing mentally. So I began writing my 80 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 2: second book, which was called Killer Thinking all about creativity 81 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 2: in the workplace. And I wrote most of that from 82 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,840 Speaker 2: the back of the campavan. And that's because I needed 83 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 2: something to do. I couldn't just completely switch off I'm 84 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 2: not someone who can go and flop and drop on 85 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 2: a beach and just spend six months staring into the 86 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 2: sun and just daydreaming. I needed to have a project, 87 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 2: and so for me, it was writing a book. 88 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: I want to know about the decision to leave Junkie 89 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: Media when you did. So. You were there for three 90 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:05,599 Speaker 1: years after you sold for your earnout period, but you 91 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: stayed for an extra year, and in your book Work Backwards, 92 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 1: you talk about how you had about a decade of 93 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 1: this low level hum of stress. Why leave when you did? 94 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: How did you know it was enough. 95 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:21,919 Speaker 2: I'm a very intuitive person in terms of my own intuition, 96 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 2: not other people's intuitive. I'm not a psychic doing a reading. 97 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:27,160 Speaker 1: No. 98 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:30,919 Speaker 2: I tune into my own and sometimes it's really fricking 99 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 2: annoying because my gut tells me something and my brain 100 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 2: tells me something else, and I always have to listen 101 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 2: to my gut. And I loved almost every minute of 102 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 2: building a business. My co founders and I built the 103 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 2: company up to about sixty or seventy full time staff. 104 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 2: So it was this beast that we had to feed 105 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 2: every day and make sure there's revenue coming in and 106 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:55,359 Speaker 2: there's audiences and ride the up and downs of business. 107 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 2: And towards the end of that journey, I started noticing 108 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 2: personally started to feel a little bit different. So in 109 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 2: my gut when I was walking to work, I would feel, 110 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 2: I'm not as excited to go into work today as 111 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 2: I was last week. That's interesting. And then the next 112 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 2: week I'm still not as excited to go in there. 113 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 2: So I'd really pay attention to how I felt. And 114 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 2: one day I realized the easiest thing to do would 115 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 2: be nothing. The easiest thing to do is in action 116 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 2: and just sit there and have a wonderful life, an 117 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 2: enjoyable life, but not do anything. And that to me 118 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 2: wasn't an option. When you overwork, and when you overthink, 119 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 2: and when you start becoming disengaged, I could feel those 120 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 2: things creeping in, so I wanted to make action before 121 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 2: that they became a permanent thing. 122 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 1: How did you know that it wouldn't just pass? And 123 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: I asked that because I feel like I've had those 124 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 1: moments this year. So I've been doing Inventium, not necessarily 125 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: running Inventium, although I stepped into the CEO role for 126 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 1: the last six months, but I had some pretty they 127 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 1: intense moments and definitely hit this period of burnout sort 128 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:05,919 Speaker 1: of earlier this year. But how did you know it 129 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 1: was time to step away as opposed to well this torucial. 130 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 2: Pass yeah, or just just take a break. Yeah, And 131 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 2: sometimes the answer is to just take a break, take 132 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 2: a good holiday. It felt different. It didn't feel like 133 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 2: the normal wear and tear of business that can be 134 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 2: repaired with a two week holiday. Somewhere I was becoming 135 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 2: less engaged with things that would previously engage me. I 136 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 2: started to feel like it was repetitive and my job 137 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 2: up until that point, somehow it felt like a different 138 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 2: job every year because of the way the Internet changed, 139 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 2: the way that media change, which is where my business 140 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 2: was builting. Things just started to feel a bit stale 141 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 2: and I needed to shake things up. And originally I 142 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 2: told my board and my executive team on a Friday 143 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 2: afternoon that I was going to leave after fifteen years. 144 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 2: I got married on the Saturday of that weekend, and 145 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 2: weddings got canceled on the Sunday because this was in 146 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 2: March twenty twenty. It was in the middle of that month, 147 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 2: that week in COVID when everything fell apart. So I 148 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 2: went back into the office on Monday and unquit for 149 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 2: because I couldn't leave the company with all of this 150 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 2: up and down, and then stayed around for about another 151 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 2: six months and then ended up leaving properly about six 152 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 2: months after that. 153 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: Oh my god, what timing. Wow. I want to ask 154 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 1: what do you do now for work? Because you're living 155 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 1: in an island off Spain and I think you've been 156 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: doing that for about a year or a year and 157 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,319 Speaker 1: a half, am I right, yeah, about year and a 158 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: half and you're here in Melbourne. We're recording because you're 159 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: here for a week. What's your job? What's your work? 160 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 2: It sounds like one of my family members, of my mum, 161 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,079 Speaker 2: who's like, what is your job? What are you doing 162 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 2: back here? I trying to move beyond job titles, and 163 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 2: I find that this is for me is a solution 164 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 2: to my identity being caught up in a job title. 165 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 2: My unofficial title is an optimist who love's big ideas, 166 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 2: and that's kind of how I think about myself because 167 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 2: that's something that's never going to change no matter what 168 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 2: job I do or what job I don't do. So 169 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 2: that's the high level in terms of actual practical level 170 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 2: of what I do. I write books. So my third book, 171 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 2: Work Backwards, came out a few months ago in Australia, 172 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 2: is going to come out in the US and the 173 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:19,959 Speaker 2: UK at the end of this year. When I left Junkie, 174 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 2: I set up a community of independent publishers, and I 175 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 2: set up an industry body. So it's a nonprofit industry 176 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 2: body called the Digital Publishers Alliance, and it's a community 177 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 2: of all the leading independent publishers in the country. And 178 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 2: I do that a couple of days a week as 179 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 2: the chair of that group. And I really love that. 180 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 2: I write and then I consult, end up working about 181 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 2: three days a week and then spend the rest of 182 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 2: the week living on a beach. On a beach. Yeah. 183 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 2: And so we live in Majorca and we swim, we hike. 184 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 2: We've just come from one month traveling through the Alps 185 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 2: where we hired a campavan in Marseille and ended up 186 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 2: in Munich hiking and working a couple of days a 187 00:09:58,160 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 2: week as well. 188 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, like applications open for your job. 189 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:06,959 Speaker 2: I consider my life an experiment, and I know you 190 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,319 Speaker 2: do as well. And I think the most interesting, creative, 191 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 2: curious people do. And there's a privilege to that. 192 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: I want to talk about some of the strategies that 193 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: you recommend and that you write about in Work Backwards, 194 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: And the first section of the book, which I found 195 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: particularly powerful, is around the acronym map standing for meeting 196 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: anchors and priorities. And one of the things you write 197 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 1: about in that section is job crafting, which as an 198 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: organizational psychologist, I'm deeply familiar with it. But can you 199 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 1: talk to me about how you've used job crafting and 200 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,959 Speaker 1: maybe what it is, the different components and how you've 201 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:45,119 Speaker 1: used that for yourself. 202 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 2: I love job crafting and I love talking to people 203 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 2: about it, especially people like you that really understand the 204 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 2: psychology behind it. And it's such a simple concept, the 205 00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 2: idea that we can take our job and craft to 206 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 2: be able to find more meaning in it. Amy Rosnecki 207 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 2: and Jane Dutton, who originally came up with this in 208 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 2: two thousand and one, say that there's three ways that 209 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 2: you can do that. Through the tasks that you do, 210 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 2: through the relationships you have at work, and through the 211 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,959 Speaker 2: cognitive reframing or framing of how you think about work. 212 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 2: And it's basically about having an awareness of which areas 213 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 2: of your job do you enjoy, do you get meaning from, 214 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 2: do you get satisfaction from? And which don't you And 215 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 2: how can you dial up or dial down those areas. 216 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 2: I am a relatively late convert to job crafting. It's 217 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 2: been around since two thousand and one, but I've only 218 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 2: really been super conscious of it the last few years 219 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 2: as I researched and thought about this book. So relationship 220 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,679 Speaker 2: crafting is a perfect example of you tend to spend 221 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 2: more time with people in your work, so mentors or 222 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 2: colleagues who give you some kind of meaning. And what 223 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 2: I love about job crafting is I think it put 224 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 2: a name on something that is just so innate to 225 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 2: all of us. 226 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: Tell me about how you've thought about like one of 227 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: those three elements around tasks or relationships or the cognitive 228 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: component around how you approach your work, which obviously changed 229 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: dramatically in the last few years. 230 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 2: So when I was at Junkie, I built most of 231 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 2: this business with my co founder Neil, and him and 232 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 2: I have so many complimentary skills, and we crafted all 233 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 2: of those important skills that you need to build a business, 234 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 2: so managing people, managing finances, dealing with problems, and then 235 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 2: specific skills that we had around building media businesses. We 236 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:36,079 Speaker 2: very much divided and conquered the tasks that were necessary 237 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 2: from a very high level management perspective, and that in 238 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 2: a way was us both job crafting our jobs. I 239 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 2: used to think of my own work and think that 240 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 2: about eighty percent of what I do I really love 241 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 2: and about twenty percent I find is really hard. And 242 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 2: I'd look across at my business partner and say, about 243 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 2: twenty percent of the job that he does I like, 244 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 2: and about eighty percent I find really hard. And so 245 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:00,200 Speaker 2: there's a real complementary element of that in that I 246 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 2: was able to dial up those areas of my job 247 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 2: that I got meaning from, which for me was creating 248 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 2: content and building communities and working with editorial teams to 249 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 2: make really interesting, funny, interactive, great content for our audience. 250 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 2: So now that I have complete sway of what I do, 251 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 2: I often joke that, obviously there's a concept of inbox zero. 252 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 2: Get inbox down to zero. I joke that I now 253 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 2: have staff zero. I've got the number of staff I 254 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 2: manage from seventy down to zero. And I tell you what, 255 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 2: staff zero is a wonderful place to be because I 256 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 2: still get things done but I don't manage other people. 257 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:44,319 Speaker 2: I have contractors, I have freelancers, but I'm not responsible 258 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 2: for their career. And feel all of that the hard 259 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:50,679 Speaker 2: part of managing people. And I think that's how I've 260 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 2: crafted my job. 261 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: Now that sounds wonderful. 262 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 2: Your eyes lighting up when I talk about that stuff. 263 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:00,079 Speaker 2: Zero and I will. 264 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:02,839 Speaker 1: Say, in case anyone from my team is listening, who knows. 265 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: I love my team, but I don't like managing people. 266 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:08,679 Speaker 1: I was talking to my therapist literally a few days ago, 267 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,439 Speaker 1: and he said, yeah, people that are people pleases, they 268 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: don't make great managers. And I'm like, ah, yeah, okay, 269 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 1: I shouldn't be a manager again, what. 270 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 2: A great what a great insight. But it's true, manager 271 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 2: people is really hard. 272 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: It's really hard, and I think you just need to 273 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: get rid of that desire to be liked if you're 274 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 1: going to be a good manager, which I struggle to 275 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: get rid of. 276 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 2: Sorry anyways, well, start zero is something to do. 277 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 1: Something to yah, Now, talk to me about purpose versus 278 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: meaning how are they different when we're thinking about work, Like, 279 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: how are they different for you when you think about 280 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: what matters to you and what you want to be doing? 281 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 2: Purpose? 282 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: To me? 283 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 2: Is a scary word. Purpose is a daunting word. It's 284 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 2: easy for us to talk about business having purpose because 285 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 2: it's not a human being, and businesses should have purpose, 286 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 2: and coming up with and devising what a business as 287 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 2: purpose is is relatively easy because it's not going to 288 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 2: talk back at you. We're giving it its attributes. But 289 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 2: when you start talking about purpose as a human, oh goodness, 290 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 2: I just start to tense up because I don't know 291 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 2: what my life's purpose is. Purpose is scary, and it's 292 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 2: one way to really turn people off sometimes, thinking if 293 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 2: you went up to someone and said, what is your 294 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 2: life purpose? Like, get away from me. That's a really 295 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 2: hard question. So purpose to me is a little bit 296 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 2: scary when it talks about life. But meaning is related 297 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 2: to purpose, but it's a lot easier for us to 298 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 2: grab hold of as humans. Meaning is something that is 299 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 2: relatively easy to understand, relatively soft, and I think it 300 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 2: can be answered for anyone. So the meaning that you 301 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 2: need to really think about is what meaning you get 302 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 2: from work. Doesn't need to be one hundred percent of 303 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 2: your meaning, just what you need to get some meaning 304 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 2: from work, And then what meaning you get outside work, 305 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 2: which is a question that we often don't talk about. 306 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 2: For me, there's a really simple question that you can 307 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 2: ask that answers that, and the question is what are 308 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 2: you proud of? So if I asked someone what are 309 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 2: you proud of? That would start listing off five or 310 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 2: six things. It might be my kids and something they 311 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 2: did that day. It might be my race shoe with 312 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 2: my husband and what we did. It might be a 313 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 2: piece of creative art that I just made, whatever it is. 314 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 2: If you write down a bunch of those answers, then 315 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 2: pull out some of those common threads, you're starting to 316 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 2: get to the core of where someone gets meaning from 317 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 2: outside work. And if you know those two things, that's 318 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 2: really powerful. 319 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: So when you were thinking about this for your own work, 320 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 1: was it like literally writing a laundry list of everything 321 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: that you were proud of that you could think of 322 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: to do with your work. If we're thinking about what 323 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: meaning comes from work as opposed to non work things. 324 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, So for meaning at work, I did job crafting, 325 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 2: and I figured out where am I getting my meaning from? 326 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 2: And for me, I realized that this whole area of 327 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:07,639 Speaker 2: community and anytime I do something around that, anytime I 328 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 2: start putting on events, planning events, I get really excited. 329 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,439 Speaker 2: Anytime I have to do my finances, do my invoice in, 330 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 2: do my tax I don't get excited. So for me, 331 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 2: I figured out where meaning comes from, but from my 332 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 2: personal life. I started writing out. I wrote out things 333 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 2: like I love hiking. I adore hiking, and so what 334 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:30,880 Speaker 2: is it I love about hiking? I love being out 335 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 2: in nature, like connecting with that. I have a real 336 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 2: deep curiosity around finding a topic and getting slightly obsessive 337 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 2: over it that turns into a book every few years. 338 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 2: That for me is where I get meaning my life 339 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 2: that I've built and how I've been able to build 340 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 2: that life. I'm really proud of that, my relationship with 341 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 2: my husband and with a bunch of my really close friends. 342 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 2: And so once I started to pull that out, I 343 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 2: had this awareness of I should build my life around 344 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 2: a meaning at work is around unity building and be 345 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 2: meaning outside work, prioritizing hiking, prioritizing time with my husband, 346 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 2: prioritizing time to read books and be curious about things. 347 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 2: So that is where I get some of my meaning from. 348 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:16,679 Speaker 2: And Amantha, I'm interested with you. If I asked you 349 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 2: that question, what would you say? Is the question is 350 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 2: what are you proud of. 351 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 1: Like, I'm very proud of my relationship with my daughter 352 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: and my partner, and I'm really proud that when things 353 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 1: this year have been very intense and stressful with work, 354 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,400 Speaker 1: but I don't think I let it affect those two relationships. 355 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 1: And I had that conversation with my partner Neo and 356 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,400 Speaker 1: my daughter Frankie because I knew that I was going 357 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 1: through a bit of a tough time, and they said 358 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 1: that it actually didn't spill over, which for me made 359 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 1: me really proud that I was able to not pollute 360 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:55,160 Speaker 1: those things that are really precious to me, to. 361 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 2: Keep some real boundaries. 362 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. For work, I'm really proud of this podcast. 363 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:04,120 Speaker 1: I'm proud of my ability to disseminate what I think. 364 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 1: You know, it can be complex ideas and complex science, 365 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:10,679 Speaker 1: and demystify that for the people that consume what I do, 366 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:12,639 Speaker 1: whether that be in you know, the audience of a 367 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: keynote speech or listeners of the show, or readers of 368 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:19,160 Speaker 1: my books. It's funny. I thought, like, I'll be able 369 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: to reel off a heap of things, but thinking about now, 370 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: there must be more. I'm proud of the focus that 371 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: I put on my health, that I've still been able 372 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 1: to prioritize making healthy choices and having healthy habits around 373 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 1: sleep and around movement and exercise and what I eat. 374 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 1: And I think that that's often the thing that goes 375 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: when people are challenging times. Yeah, so I guess I'm 376 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 1: proud that I've been able to do that. How am 377 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: I going to him? Wonder if you give me a score? 378 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:55,919 Speaker 2: So it's a really illuminating question because your answers really 379 00:19:55,960 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 2: give insight into do you have meaning outside work? Because 380 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 2: if you came back with just all work things, potentially 381 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,399 Speaker 2: the balance in your life between work and life is 382 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 2: too far into work. Whereas your answers around your relationship, 383 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:18,439 Speaker 2: around balance and the boundaries you've been able to build, 384 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 2: that to me says that you do have really strong 385 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 2: sources of meaning outside work, And that is really clarifying 386 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:31,880 Speaker 2: because your sources of meaning are your relationships, your body, 387 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 2: and part of your mind. So I think it's very illuminating, 388 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 2: and you have to be in tuned with what your 389 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:39,400 Speaker 2: answers say. 390 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: What if I didn't say anything about work, Let's just 391 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: say I wasn't me and you're sitting down with someone 392 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 1: else and the things that they were proud of, there 393 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: was nothing about work. Would you recommend that they change 394 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: jobs or what would you recommend? 395 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,440 Speaker 2: No? I actually think that having a list of things 396 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 2: you're proud of outside work that aren't work is wonderful. 397 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 2: That's almost something to aim towards. And this comes back 398 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 2: to two different types of people and how they approach 399 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 2: work and life, the concept of segmentors and integrators. And 400 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 2: I would hesitate to say that someone who's a segmentor, 401 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 2: which Google have shown is roughly one third of people. 402 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: And can you define what that is for those that 403 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: have not heard those terms. 404 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 2: Yes, So a segmentor is someone who's able to segment 405 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,399 Speaker 2: work and life and able to close down the computer 406 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 2: on a Friday afternoon, not think about work, not reopen 407 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 2: it again until Monday morning comes. It's a wonderful skill 408 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 2: for some people. There are negatives to it, which is 409 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 2: they're generally segmentors are not as flexible as other people segmentors. 410 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 2: If you ask them what they're proud of, generally most 411 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 2: of the answers would be outside work. It would be 412 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 2: I went fishing on the weekend and got a great fish. 413 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,360 Speaker 2: And this book I'm reading is really interesting because they're 414 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 2: able to segment work. The majority of people, around two thirds, 415 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:57,160 Speaker 2: are integrators. I'm an integrator, Amantha. You're an integrator. Integrators 416 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 2: are people who are able to integrate work and life life, 417 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:05,159 Speaker 2: sometimes to a benefit because you can have flexibility, and 418 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 2: often to a negative because there is never a time 419 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 2: when work is not on your mind or the computer 420 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 2: cannot be opened. So if it's Sunday at ten o'clock 421 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 2: at night and you want to do some emails, you 422 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 2: will open up your computer and do emails. 423 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:26,439 Speaker 1: Interesting, I'm definitely an integrator. We will be back with 424 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: him soon where I ask him how we can all 425 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: get better at identifying our values and why he prefers 426 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: the term anchors instead. If you're looking for more tips 427 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: to improve the way you work can live. I write 428 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: a short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've discovered that 429 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: have helped me personally. You can sign up for that 430 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha dot Com. I want 431 00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: to talk about anchors versus values because one of the 432 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: things that you write about in the book is around 433 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: the importance of finding your anchors. How are anchors different 434 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: from values or a kind of the same thing. And 435 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 1: how did you find yours? 436 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 2: So I like to call them anchors because I feel 437 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 2: that values has been a little bit monopolized by work. 438 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 2: So generally, when you say to somebody you values, we 439 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,400 Speaker 2: don't think about them as personal values. We often think 440 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 2: about them as values. Oh yeah, my work has five values. 441 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 2: We should always have integrity, and we should always be respectful, 442 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 2: and we should always be honest and do things together. 443 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 2: And values in the workplace is an amazing thing, and 444 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 2: I love that that has become the main way that 445 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 2: we talk about some of these things, but we often 446 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,439 Speaker 2: don't talk as much around personal values. And so I 447 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 2: call them anchors. They are the same as core values. 448 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 2: There's a thousand different ways of doing it, but for me, 449 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 2: I wanted to differentiate it a little bit from work values, 450 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 2: just to give it its own little name. So anchors 451 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 2: or core values, they are three to four things that 452 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 2: really define who you are as a human. Relatively set 453 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 2: in life, it's very hard to change them. They're probably 454 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,640 Speaker 2: set by the time you're lateeen or even in your 455 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 2: early twenties, but they're really hard to change. I have 456 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,439 Speaker 2: spent years trying to think about myself on what my 457 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 2: anchors are and who I am as a human. But 458 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 2: they became really crystallized when my dad passed away a 459 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 2: few years ago. And one of the ways in which 460 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 2: anyone can think about their own anchors is to look 461 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,919 Speaker 2: at people you admire and try to figure out what 462 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 2: is that you admire about them. And I look at 463 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 2: my dad, and he was an optimist, an amazing optimist. 464 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 2: He was extremely fair with all of us, and there 465 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:45,120 Speaker 2: was this amazing sense of giving to people around him. 466 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 2: And you know, he was the president of the school 467 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 2: society and he did this at when we were young kids. 468 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,160 Speaker 2: There was this real giving back and a sense of community. 469 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 2: And so I look at my values and my anchors, 470 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 2: which are optimism, fairness, and community. And I see myself 471 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 2: reflected in my father and my mother as well, who 472 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 2: has a lot of these values. But that's where I've 473 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 2: got most of my values from. 474 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: How did you identify them in the first place? You 475 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:13,719 Speaker 1: make it sound so simple here on my three anchors. 476 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: I love that. I'm envious. I don't know what mine are. 477 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 2: What do you think yours are? Well? 478 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 1: I used to think one of mine was health right, 479 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: and then I was listening to a podcast interview. I 480 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,120 Speaker 1: think it was Dr m on The Imperfect was talking 481 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: about values, and she said, health is not a value. 482 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,679 Speaker 1: Health is a means to an end. So what is 483 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 1: the thing that health is giving you. It's about vitality, 484 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 1: for example, or being present. So there went one of 485 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 1: my values. You know, I value curiosity and kindness. There 486 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:41,119 Speaker 1: have been times when I've sat down to try to 487 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:43,360 Speaker 1: think about, Okay, what are my three or four values, 488 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 1: and I've never really landed on them. So I want 489 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,679 Speaker 1: to know what was the process that you went through 490 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,640 Speaker 1: that got you to what seems like a lot of clarity. 491 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, And one of them was having a really big 492 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,159 Speaker 2: life defining event happen where I had to kind of 493 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 2: strip away some of the noise, some of the identity, 494 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 2: and some of the safety of all of that. And 495 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 2: that was my father passed away a few years ago. 496 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 2: And that, to me was a real clarifying moment. Around 497 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 2: when you're writing somebody's eulogy, someone you really really love, 498 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 2: you kind of distill their life down into values. You've 499 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,639 Speaker 2: got a bit of perspective, and for me it was 500 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 2: what are people going to say about me? What's my legacy? 501 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 2: I also quite like seeing a list of what the 502 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 2: most common values are and just really stopping and thinking 503 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 2: in work backwards. I have a list of the fifty 504 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:37,400 Speaker 2: most common anchors, and I read through all of them 505 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,120 Speaker 2: and just stop and think. So take some time out 506 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 2: and figure out which ones resonate with me, which ones don't. 507 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 2: Pull out a couple of those. I also think putting 508 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,120 Speaker 2: pressure on yourself to have to find three or four 509 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 2: words that define you. We are complex individuals, and this 510 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 2: is a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy for me 511 00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 2: when I think about my own anchors, because I now 512 00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:03,479 Speaker 2: know what they are. So optimism is one. I'm an 513 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 2: optimist through and through, but I've only really owned that 514 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 2: properly in the last few years once I've identified it. 515 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,960 Speaker 2: Now I say it everywhere. It's the bio on my book. 516 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 2: It says Tim is an optimist. Still, I was thinking 517 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 2: about big ideas. We're hopefully going to have long lives 518 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,439 Speaker 2: and our anchors will be with us in the entire lives. 519 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 1: Okay, you prompted me to do some more thinking about this, Tim, 520 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: I think I'm going to steal that optimism one that 521 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,879 Speaker 1: definitely that really resonates in terms of even just my 522 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 1: self identity, which I guess is a clue to your anchors. 523 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 2: And the way that I really saw that one is 524 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,199 Speaker 2: looking around at people I admire and see what I 525 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,919 Speaker 2: admire about them. I really admire Simon Sinek, the books 526 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 2: he's written, how he communicates. He leads often with he's 527 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 2: an optimist. And I saw that and it resonated with me. 528 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: I really like how you think about work life balance. 529 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:53,679 Speaker 1: I know that it's a term that you don't like 530 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 1: and doesn't resonate. Can you tell me what you think 531 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 1: about instead? 532 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,120 Speaker 2: Work life balance is a term that is used a lot. 533 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 2: I understand why it's used a lot. It makes sense. 534 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 2: It is catchy, and all of us want something to 535 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 2: describe that tension that we feel between work and between 536 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:13,919 Speaker 2: everything else outside it. The reason why I don't like 537 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 2: work life balance is because it puts work and life 538 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,399 Speaker 2: on an equal pedestal, as though they're fifty to fifty. 539 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 2: And when you think about what life is, life is 540 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 2: a wide quarto copia of activities that is so much 541 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 2: broader than just something that should be balanced out by work. 542 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:37,199 Speaker 2: Life is your relationships. It is your family, it's your community, 543 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 2: it's your faith, it's your interest, it's your body. It's 544 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 2: your health. It's all these things, which I argue are 545 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 2: way more important than any job will ever be. My 546 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 2: simple way of thinking about it is instead of thinking 547 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 2: about work life balance, flipping it around, so it's life 548 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 2: work balance, and just by putting life first, we're giving 549 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 2: it the importance that it should have, instead of having 550 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 2: work as the ultimate importance and the default way of 551 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 2: thinking about this. 552 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: I like how you add some categories. There are four 553 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: things that you think about when you're thinking about Okay, 554 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: how am I using my time? Can you talk about 555 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 1: those four things and how you think about that in 556 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: your own life in terms of what you do. I 557 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: don't want to say your job, but you know your 558 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 1: work stuff and your life. 559 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 2: Yes, this has been one of the most personally interesting 560 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 2: frameworks because I think about this one all the time. 561 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 2: We can choose how we want to spend our time, 562 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 2: and I've kind of distilled it down into essentially four categories. 563 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 2: Work been one, so open up our computer and doing work. 564 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 2: Spending time in our relationships, so our friends, our family, 565 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 2: our partner, our kids, our grandparents. Spending time on our mind, 566 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 2: which is can be watching TV, it can be hobbies, 567 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 2: it can be playing chess. It can be reading a 568 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 2: book whatever it is, and spending time on our body, 569 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 2: so exercising, cooking, thinking about it, showering, doing all those things. 570 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 2: So work, mind, body, and relationships. And the general way 571 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 2: that we think about things is work is almost always 572 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 2: the number one priority in our lives, and everything else 573 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 2: kind of fits into the rest of it. What should 574 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 2: we be aiming towards. What's the amount of time that 575 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 2: we should be spending on each of those four quadrants. 576 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 2: What I came up with was that we should be 577 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 2: spending roughly a quarter of our time on each of 578 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 2: those four quadrants, so work, mind, body, and relationships. The 579 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 2: reason why this model has been really interesting is because 580 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 2: it challenges me to think of how long am I 581 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 2: spending in my week on my work, which is generally 582 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 2: too much, so dialing that down, But how long am 583 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 2: I actually spending on my mind, my body, and my relationships, 584 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 2: And it's usually less than I should. And so I 585 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 2: then think actively around what are some strategies and what 586 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 2: are some ways that I can dial up some of 587 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 2: those to spend more on them. And that's why the 588 00:30:58,160 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 2: model has been really challenging. 589 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 1: And one of the things I really loved about the 590 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 1: book is reading about the different experiments that you'd tried 591 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: in terms of how you've flipped various conventions on their 592 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 1: head when it comes to how you approach your work. 593 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: I remember one of them was how you decided to 594 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 1: flip the work week and weekends around and I think 595 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 1: you did that experiment with your husband. Maybe can you 596 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 1: talk about that one. 597 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, any experiment on work, I've done it. It's been 598 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 2: really freeing to do that. So this one here I 599 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 2: called flipping the work week, which I know is not practical, 600 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 2: and we did it for about six months. It was 601 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 2: actually when we were in campavan traveling around Australia. And 602 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 2: so the general way that we think about work is 603 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 2: that we have traditionally worked five days a week Monday 604 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 2: to Friday, and we have two days off Sunday and Sunday. 605 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 2: And what I thought about was what would happen if 606 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 2: we flipped the work week? What if we worked Monday 607 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 2: and Tuesday two days a week, and then took off 608 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 2: from Wednesday to Sunday. And it was a really interesting 609 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 2: experiment because obviously we're going to be working less. We 610 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 2: were in the Campa Van, we would stop at an 611 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 2: Airbnb or a hotel and checking on a Sunday night 612 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 2: and check out on a Tuesday or Wednesday, and we 613 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 2: would work really intensely for two days. It was productive. 614 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 2: I probably got about as much focused work done in 615 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 2: two days as I would have done in about four days. 616 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 2: It was just that I'm going to focus, I'm going 617 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 2: to minimize meetings. And it showed me how much fath 618 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 2: there was in a workplace. It also showed me how 619 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 2: much I miss some of the camaraderie and some of 620 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 2: the friendships that you get. But it was a really 621 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 2: interesting experiment. 622 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 1: What other experiments have you brown that have taught you 623 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 1: some really useful lessons. 624 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 2: So I'm currently working three days a week, so for me, that. 625 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 1: Is increased your work time by fifty and for me, 626 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 1: that's a really nice mix that works for me. 627 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 2: So I've experimented with five day weeks, with four day weeks, 628 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 2: with two day weeks, and now I'm settled in it 629 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 2: three day week and I think that works really nicely. 630 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 2: I have experimented as a full time remote worker, so 631 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 2: working completely remote. So my husband and I spent six 632 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 2: months living in Darwin. We worked fully remote there five 633 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 2: days a week. And there's some wonderful benefits that come 634 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 2: from fully remote working, and there's also some drawbacks. So 635 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 2: we really missed being part of a community. And when 636 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 2: you're doing that five days a week, it's quite hard 637 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 2: doing remote working that whole time. You do miss that 638 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 2: sense of being around other people. 639 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: I had a meeting with someone earlier who I'm collaborating 640 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: with on a project outside of invent him, and he 641 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: does a three day week. He's kind of semi retired 642 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 1: as a partner from one of the Big four and 643 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 1: this is every week is Easter, and I love that 644 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,239 Speaker 1: for you. How does this three day week work like they? 645 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 1: Are they the same days? Are they eight hour days? 646 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 2: To give me more details, Yeah, And so I'll give 647 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 2: two examples because my husband and I, because he works 648 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,479 Speaker 2: full time completely remote for a company from Spain, I 649 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 2: work three days a week for myself. So it's slightly 650 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 2: different because I can determine my own hours. But what 651 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 2: we have decided as a couple is that we will 652 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,839 Speaker 2: align our schedules as much as possible because that means 653 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 2: the meaning we get outside work. So generally we wake 654 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 2: up quite early, so we start work about six am 655 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 2: in the morning and go through to about two o'clock 656 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 2: in the afternoon, so it's a full eight hour day 657 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 2: from Monday to Wednesday. So the same time every week 658 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,399 Speaker 2: in Spain, it's two o'clock in the afternoon, the sun 659 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,800 Speaker 2: is shining, the payella is cooking, the beach is calling, 660 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 2: and we then go out for a hike or a 661 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 2: swim or sometimes just flop on the couch. At two 662 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 2: o'clock in the afternoon, go and have lunch and do 663 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 2: stuff together, and we have each afternoon an evening. Therefore, Monday, Tuesday, 664 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 2: Wednesday we have relatively early nights. We go to bed early, 665 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,399 Speaker 2: and then it gets to Wednesday afternoon and the work 666 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 2: week is finished. The amount of crossover time we have 667 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 2: with Australia, so from six am in the morning is 668 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 2: normally about currently in summer about two o'clock in the 669 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 2: afternoon in Australia, so we've got three or four hours 670 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 2: each day. And what that also does is that cuts 671 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 2: a lot of the fath out of meetings, so we 672 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,839 Speaker 2: can't spend our day in meetings, so instead we have 673 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 2: meetings from six am till nine am ish Australia time, 674 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:20,880 Speaker 2: and then I've got from nine till two just to 675 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,160 Speaker 2: do work, to think, to do deep work, and that's 676 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 2: quite lovely. Wow, come and join me. 677 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, I'm thinking, how do I do that? How 678 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: do I transport my daughter into school in Spain? 679 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 2: No? 680 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 1: No, in all seriousness, I'm putting myself in your shoes. 681 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 1: Or rather, I'm thinking, what does that would mean. I 682 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,399 Speaker 1: struggle with this now in Melbourne in my work life, 683 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 1: because I genuinely love my work and I kind of 684 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,239 Speaker 1: like I could just keep working, and I really have 685 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,960 Speaker 1: to make a conscious effort to stop work. And one 686 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 1: of the things that I've done I've changed a few 687 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 1: of my habits around after sort of hitting a low 688 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,800 Speaker 1: point in June. And I have a rule for myself. 689 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:01,879 Speaker 1: I've got a room in the house. It's the home 690 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 1: office and studio, and that's separate to the rest of 691 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 1: the house. And I leave my laptop in the study 692 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 1: as opposed to just taking it down into the living area, 693 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,959 Speaker 1: where it's really easy to re engage in work after 694 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: the workday has ended, say at five or five thirty. 695 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:21,839 Speaker 1: So just it stays there when I finish the day. 696 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,239 Speaker 1: And that's been quite good. But I want to know 697 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 1: for you, how, particularly given that we're both integrators. How 698 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 1: do you actually stop at two o'clock? 699 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:35,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, for me, it's about external factors. So my husband, 700 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 2: who's a segmentor is something that makes me stop work. 701 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:44,280 Speaker 2: I imagine children and responsibilities and childcare also pulls people away. 702 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:46,879 Speaker 2: I know where I get meaning from, and I make 703 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 2: appointments with myself and with external people, with friends to say, 704 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:52,759 Speaker 2: I need to make sure that I'm going to go 705 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 2: to the gym at two o'clock because I have a 706 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:57,880 Speaker 2: class booked and that's what pulls me away from work. 707 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,319 Speaker 1: I like that a lot. That is a good strategy 708 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 1: having other things are the commitments that force you away 709 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,400 Speaker 1: from work? Yes, and I'm totally going to try. 710 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 2: That, especially ones that are related to things you find meaningful. 711 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,279 Speaker 1: I want to also ask in the context of experiments 712 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:15,799 Speaker 1: that you've done. I know you've thought a lot about 713 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 1: career breaks and sabbaticals, and I've been doing inventing for 714 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 1: seventeen years. I've got some long service leaf built up 715 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 1: that I haven't used yet. Tell me what experiments have 716 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 1: you ran in that regard and what would you recommend 717 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 1: I do. 718 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 2: Have you taken a career break? 719 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:35,760 Speaker 1: No, I have not, haven't stopped. 720 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 2: I think it's high time that you did. But genuinely 721 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:43,440 Speaker 2: think that and for somebody who's an integrator, career break 722 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:47,799 Speaker 2: doesn't need to mean a complete break from everything that 723 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,280 Speaker 2: you'd like thinking about. What it does mean is having 724 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:53,880 Speaker 2: something to look forward to that's going to be a 725 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,839 Speaker 2: bit of a circuit breaker to your life, and that 726 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:02,680 Speaker 2: is where you can have time away to think of 727 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,800 Speaker 2: new book ideas, to think of guests you want to 728 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 2: have on your podcast, to think of all those things 729 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 2: that you get meaning from with your daughter and with 730 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,440 Speaker 2: your relationships and with your partner. Prioritizing all of that 731 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,399 Speaker 2: within a career break, and a career break is once 732 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 2: again a really personal thing for many people. I recommend 733 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,840 Speaker 2: that people take career breaks once every decade and a 734 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,520 Speaker 2: half if you can. The idea of just stepping away 735 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,719 Speaker 2: from work for a period or from irresponsibilities, and it's 736 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,319 Speaker 2: not just a holiday, it's thinking a little bit more 737 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,359 Speaker 2: consciously about what you want to get out of it. 738 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,400 Speaker 2: I do love that in career breaks, there's actually researchers 739 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,840 Speaker 2: have identified three different types of career breaks. There is 740 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 2: a working holiday where you do some work as you 741 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,640 Speaker 2: are there, and you generally come back into your same profession. 742 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,160 Speaker 2: There's a free dive, which is where you really dive 743 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,799 Speaker 2: into something else or something completely different. And there's a quest, 744 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,719 Speaker 2: which is where you need to seek out something spiritually 745 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 2: a bit higher, and so thinking throughously before you do 746 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 2: it which type of career break you want is probably 747 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 2: the best way of doing it. 748 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,919 Speaker 1: I'm so inspired to sit down and think about this, Tim. 749 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: I feel like I could just keep talking to you 750 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,719 Speaker 1: for another eight hours, but then I mean you'd have 751 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,680 Speaker 1: to clock off before then anyway. But Tim, thank you 752 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:19,000 Speaker 1: so much. I'm so glad we could organize this conversation 753 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 1: for when you're in Melbourne. It's just been a joy 754 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:23,880 Speaker 1: and very inspiring for me. 755 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:25,799 Speaker 2: Thank you, Mantha. I've loved it as well. 756 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 1: I hope you loved this chat with Tim as much 757 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 1: as I did. I left feeling so inspired by what 758 00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:35,920 Speaker 1: he's achieved in his own life and left me thinking 759 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,719 Speaker 1: a lot about how I could challenge some of the 760 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,279 Speaker 1: rules and assumptions that are placed upon work and what 761 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,440 Speaker 1: work is meant to look like. I haven't quite reached 762 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 1: any answers for myself yet, but it started a conversation 763 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,399 Speaker 1: in my head. And if you want to learn more 764 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:55,440 Speaker 1: about Tim. I highly recommend his book Work Backwards, which 765 00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:58,440 Speaker 1: unpacks a lot more concepts about how we can approach 766 00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:03,160 Speaker 1: work and life quite differently. If you like today's show, 767 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,160 Speaker 1: make sure you hit follow on your podcast app to 768 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 1: be alerted when new episodes drop. How I Work was 769 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,759 Speaker 1: recorded on the traditional land of the Warrangery people, part 770 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,040 Speaker 1: of the Kola Nation. A big thank you to my 771 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 1: editor Rowena Murray and Martin Nimmer for doing the sound mix.