1 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 2 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: used by leading innovators to get so much out of 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 1: their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imbach. I'm an 4 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: organizational psychologist, the founder of innovation consultancy Inventium, and I'm 5 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work date. This 6 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: episode is another my favorite tip episode. The title is 7 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 1: probably pretty self explanatory. It's about my favorite tip from 8 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: each of the interviews I conduct. My guest today is 9 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: Cal Newport. Cal is a computer science professor at Georgetown University. 10 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: Cal is also the author of six books, including most 11 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: recently the New York Times bestseller Digital Minimalism Choosing a 12 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: focused Life in a Noisy world. Cal's work has been 13 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 1: published in over twenty languages and has been featured in 14 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The New 15 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: York Of, the Washington Post, and The Economist. It's probably 16 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: an understatement to say I was excited for this chat 17 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: because I am a complete and out of fangirl of Cal's, 18 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: and it's fair to say that his has had an 19 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: enormous impact on how I work. Now, it was really 20 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 1: hard to pick my favorite tip from my chat with 21 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:09,680 Speaker 1: cow because there was so much gold in this interview, 22 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:12,559 Speaker 1: But something that did stick with me was the idea 23 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: of changing your workflow rather than using hacks and quick 24 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 1: fixes to boost productivity. So this extract starts with me 25 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:23,479 Speaker 1: asking cal to expand on this topic. On the topic 26 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: of habits, I think this was a blog maybe that 27 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 1: you wrote a few months ago around habits versus workflows, 28 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 1: which I found really interesting because I think in the 29 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: productivity space there's such an emphasis on different hacks and 30 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: quick fixes, whereas you write about the importance of actually 31 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: reviewing your workflow, and I was wondering if you could 32 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: expand a bit on what you meant by that concept, 33 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: and maybe it gives some examples of what are the 34 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: different workflows that you have in your own working life. 35 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 2: I think this is a key distinction to understand some 36 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 2: of the issues we have in workplace productivity and how 37 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 2: we might eventually solve them. So, to me, a habit 38 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:10,239 Speaker 2: is something you put in place for how you interact 39 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 2: with your work. So maybe when you check your email, 40 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 2: or your methods you use for organizing your email, or 41 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 2: maybe your personal planning, like how you plan out your 42 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 2: day or keep track of what you need to get done, 43 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 2: whereas workflow is the underlying either explicit or implicit system 44 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 2: that specifies how work gets done, so how obligations are assigned, 45 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 2: executed and tracked. A lot of times we think about habits, 46 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 2: but it's actually the underlying workflow that's causing the problem. 47 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 2: So the key place, I think, the key example where 48 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 2: this distinction comes up is when it comes to email overload. 49 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 2: So to me, the big problem with email is this 50 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 2: underlying workflow that says. The way that we work in 51 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 2: our organization is that we maintain this sort of ad hoc, 52 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 2: ongoing unstructured conversation using email inboxes, and it's very flexible, 53 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 2: it's very convenient. We all just kind of keep hey, 54 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 2: did you get that what's going on over here? And 55 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 2: that this is how we're going to work. Is how 56 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:06,239 Speaker 2: we're going to pass tasks off to each other, is 57 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 2: how we're going to follow up on things. It's how 58 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 2: we're going to communicate with people. It's just we're going 59 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 2: to have this ongoing unstructured conversation. Now, you can have 60 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:15,360 Speaker 2: a lot of habits on top of that workfloaw to 61 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 2: try to tain it. So maybe you don't check email 62 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 2: all the time, and maybe you have some nice folder 63 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 2: system for organizing emails moving to a to do list, 64 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 2: But until you change that underlying workflow, there's nothing just 65 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 2: going to solve the need in such an environment to 66 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 2: check email a lot, spend a lot of time doing email. 67 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 2: And so, like when I'm out there talking about the 68 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 2: problem of email overload, people really want to just focus 69 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 2: on the habits. They think, well, we could just change 70 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 2: some norms about how often we check email, or batch 71 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 2: it or let people know that we're not going to 72 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 2: respond right away, that we can we can solve all 73 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 2: the problems we're having. But often the underline issue is 74 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 2: that there's this workflow that depends on ongoing email communication 75 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 2: to get anything done. And so if you want really 76 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 2: systemic change, you have to replace that with something better. 77 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 2: So I think organizations have to think about this, and 78 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 2: I think individuals can think about this in their own 79 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 2: life as well. To what extent are you rearranging the 80 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 2: deck chairs on the sinking Titanic when you're building more 81 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 2: complicated systems for an underlying workflow that's just inevitably going 82 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,039 Speaker 2: to keep you overwhelmed or not doing what's important. And 83 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 2: so I like that distinction. There's the underlying decisions about 84 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 2: how tasks and obligations are identified, assign, tracked, and executed. 85 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 2: And then there's what you do on top of that 86 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 2: to help sort of interact with those workflows. And those 87 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 2: are two different things. 88 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 1: And what are some workflows that are true for your 89 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 1: own working life? 90 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an interesting question because often when I'm talking 91 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 2: about workflows and habits, it's relevant primarily at the level 92 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 2: of organizations, right, And so this is the difference between 93 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 2: two software development teams, one that just people are on 94 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 2: slack all day and the other where they use an 95 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 2: agile methodology like Scrum that's really explicit about here's who's 96 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 2: working on what. We put it on this board, we 97 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:05,039 Speaker 2: can see its status. We have synchronous meetings. We do 98 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,159 Speaker 2: them twice a day. This is how you know, we 99 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 2: assign things. They have a really structured workflow. Because of 100 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 2: that structured workflow, they don't need to be on slack 101 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 2: all day. But without that structured workflow, they need to 102 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 2: be on slack because howl's are task going to get 103 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:18,919 Speaker 2: passed around or things checked on? In terms of like 104 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 2: in your individual life, I mean, one way to think 105 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 2: about it, I suppose is in terms of processes or 106 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 2: systems that you use for identifying tasks and making sure 107 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 2: they get done or assigning them. And so sometimes these 108 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 2: can be pretty subtle, but a concrete example is like 109 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 2: on my book tour which I'm which I'm on now 110 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 2: for digital minimalism, there's a lot of bookings that have 111 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 2: to happen, and so I thought about the underlying workflow 112 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 2: of well, what's the what's the right way to actually 113 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 2: sort of get things identified and scheduled and information to me? 114 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 2: And we built a system with the publicity team where 115 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 2: I could identify time when I'm available. They then had 116 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 2: access to those parts of my calendar. They could then 117 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 2: book things directly on the calendar with all the information 118 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 2: I need I could if I book something else, that 119 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 2: time would get blocked off. And we rebuilt the workflow 120 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 2: that minimized back and forth communication required to accomplish the 121 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 2: goal of getting the proper things like this interview scheduled, 122 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 2: for example. And so that might be an example of 123 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,039 Speaker 2: working on the underlying workflow as opposed to just the 124 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 2: upper level habits of like how often do I check 125 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 2: my emails about when things are being scheduled? 126 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 1: Hello? Again, I hope this extract got you thinking about 127 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: your own workflow and really thinking more strategically about how 128 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: you plan out your day. So something I'm about to 129 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 1: implement is reserving Mondays to deep work and not accepting 130 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: any meetings on Mondays. You see, Mondays is the day 131 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 1: that I do school drop off and pick up of 132 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 1: my daughter Frankie, and then we then spend the afternoon together. 133 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: And when I go into the office on these days 134 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 1: and try to squeeze in a bunch of meetings, which 135 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: is at school, I inevitably finish my workday feeling rushed 136 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: and flustered, which is not the ideal state to be 137 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 1: in when you're with a little person. So I'm expecting 138 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: this change in workflow to have a big difference to 139 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: not only the output I can produce on a Monday, 140 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: but also just how I feel at the end of 141 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: the workday. So that's it for today. If you like 142 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: this excerpt, you might want to listen to my full 143 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: chat with cal which I link to in the show notes. 144 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: And if you're enjoying how I work, I would love 145 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: it if you could share this podcast with other people 146 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: that you also think might be able to benefit from it, 147 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: so thank you in advance if you are going to 148 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: do that today or if you've already done that, it 149 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: means a lot. So that is it for today's show, 150 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: and I will see you next time.