WEBVTT - Why is Taylor Swift so popular?

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<v Speaker 1>Already and this is the Daily This is the Daily OS. Oh,

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<v Speaker 1>now it makes sense. Good morning and welcome to the

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<v Speaker 1>Daily OS. It is Monday, the nineteenth of February. I'm Billy,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Zara. It would have been hard to miss it.

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<v Speaker 1>Over the weekend, the Australian leg of Taylor Swift's Eras

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<v Speaker 1>tours kicked off in Melbourne.

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<v Speaker 2>Taller Swift is here touching down in Melbourne ahead of

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<v Speaker 2>her sold out Australian Eras tour. I've been trying for

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<v Speaker 2>tickets since.

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<v Speaker 1>Like the pre presale, Swift actually broke a personal record

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<v Speaker 1>performing to her biggest audience ever. But we just have

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<v Speaker 1>one question, why exactly is Taylor Swift so popular? Before

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<v Speaker 1>we get there, those are what is making headlines today.

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<v Speaker 2>Russia's opposition leader Alexi Novalni has died in jail at

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<v Speaker 2>the age of forty seven. Many Western leaders have blamed

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<v Speaker 2>the Russian government for his death, with US President Joe

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<v Speaker 2>Biden saying, and I quote what has happened to Navalne

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<v Speaker 2>is even more proof of Putin's brutality. No one should

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<v Speaker 2>be fooled. Putin has not issued a public statement since

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<v Speaker 2>Navalni's death, but a spokesperson for the Kremlin said he

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<v Speaker 2>had been informed the next Russian election will take place

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<v Speaker 2>next month.

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<v Speaker 1>Australian federal police officers are a step closer to launching

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<v Speaker 1>strike action amid ongoing demands for better pay. The Australian

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<v Speaker 1>Federal Police Association, or the AFPA, has filed an application

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<v Speaker 1>to the Fair Work Commission formalizing its intention to launch

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<v Speaker 1>industrial action. Over seventy five percent of the union's one

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<v Speaker 1>eight hundred members are in support of a strike. Police

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<v Speaker 1>are awaiting a decision from Fair Work before they can

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<v Speaker 1>take action because of rules for public sector workers, which

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<v Speaker 1>the AFPA called restrictive.

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<v Speaker 2>US President Donald Trump has been ordered to pay five

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<v Speaker 2>hundred and forty three million dollars in fines after a

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<v Speaker 2>court found he had overstated his net worth to obtain

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<v Speaker 2>better loans. The judge in the civil case said Trump's

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<v Speaker 2>complete lack of contrition and remorse borders on pathological. Trump

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<v Speaker 2>has also been banned from serving as a director of

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<v Speaker 2>any New York company for the next three years. It

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<v Speaker 2>will not impact his ability to run for president. However,

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<v Speaker 2>the former president has labeled the decision as quote Unamerican

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<v Speaker 2>and a complete and total sham Trump is expected to

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<v Speaker 2>appeal the decision.

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<v Speaker 1>And today's good news, Harvard University researchers have developed a

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<v Speaker 1>synthetic antibiotic that successfully fights drug resistant bacteria. It comes

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<v Speaker 1>to me growing global concern over antibiotics losing their effectiveness

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<v Speaker 1>to treat some infections. However, newly developed molecule has shown

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<v Speaker 1>an improved ability to fight drug resistant bacteria. The research

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<v Speaker 1>team at Harvard's that it's vital for scientists to win

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<v Speaker 1>the war against superbugs and called antibiotics the foundation on

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<v Speaker 1>which modern medicine is built.

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<v Speaker 2>Really, I think this is one of those stories that

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<v Speaker 2>really pushes the boundary of being news or noise, that

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<v Speaker 2>being what we always decide whether or not to cover

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<v Speaker 2>something on. But I think that talking about Taylor Swift

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<v Speaker 2>here actually is news because it's a cultural phenomenon unlike

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<v Speaker 2>anything we have seen in our lifetimes at least right.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly. And I don't know what has shifted, but

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<v Speaker 1>it feels like in the last year, especially Taylor Swift

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<v Speaker 1>has just climbed to a level of success that feels

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<v Speaker 1>so extreme. She's completely in a field of her own,

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<v Speaker 1>and I don't think we've ever had this kind of

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<v Speaker 1>hype before, like you said, Zar, at least not in

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<v Speaker 1>our lifetimes for an artist coming to Australia. And what

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<v Speaker 1>I wanted to look at today is why is that

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<v Speaker 1>the case and how has she done that? And so

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<v Speaker 1>I spoke to Kate Patterson and she is one of

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<v Speaker 1>the only people globally doing a PhD on Taylor Swift.

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<v Speaker 1>She is a fan studies expert from r MIT University

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<v Speaker 1>and she also just hosted an academic conference called fan

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<v Speaker 1>Posium that brought together cultural studies scholars, music industry experts

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<v Speaker 1>and fans to explore hal Swift has got to this

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<v Speaker 1>point of such extraordinary influence.

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<v Speaker 2>I have a one am really looking forward to this chat.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that even if you don't like Taylor Swift's

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<v Speaker 2>music hypothetically, it is impossible to deny this cultural phenomenon.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think it is something that is going to

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<v Speaker 2>be studied for years and years to come, and I'm

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<v Speaker 2>looking forward to learning. So here's Billy's chat with Kate Patterson.

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<v Speaker 1>Kate Patterson, thank you so much for joining the Daily Oz.

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<v Speaker 3>Thank you so much for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>I want to start by acknowledging that there are people

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<v Speaker 1>who would have seen today's pod title and rolled their

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<v Speaker 1>eyes because they're tired of seeing Taylor Swift's name literally

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<v Speaker 1>everywhere at the moment. So why should people who aren't

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<v Speaker 1>fans care about Taylor Swift and the impact that she has.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, I think if you're somebody who's interested in

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<v Speaker 4>culture and the things that people are talking about, you

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<v Speaker 4>really can't ignore Taylor Swift. I think we're at a

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<v Speaker 4>point where, even if you might not like the music,

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<v Speaker 4>you really can't deny that she's really just infiltrated all

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<v Speaker 4>different parts of culture, whether it's the impact she's going

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<v Speaker 4>to have on the economy with the Eras tour, whether

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<v Speaker 4>it's winning the fourth Album of the Year Grammy, which obviously,

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<v Speaker 4>as we know, was record breaking last week. I really

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<v Speaker 4>just think it would be remiss of us to not

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<v Speaker 4>talk about Taylor Swift right now.

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<v Speaker 1>Certainly in my lifetime, I can't remember hype anywhere near

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<v Speaker 1>this surrounding an artist coming to Australia. Has this kind

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<v Speaker 1>of obsession ever happened before?

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<v Speaker 3>It's interesting.

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<v Speaker 4>I feel like this week a lot of people have

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<v Speaker 4>been comparing her to Beatlemania back in you know, the sixties,

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<v Speaker 4>when the Beatles came here. But I think it's really

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<v Speaker 4>hard to compare different artists from different sort of eres,

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<v Speaker 4>just given that right now, with social media and the Internet,

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<v Speaker 4>it's such a different time to back then. I mean,

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<v Speaker 4>I think fan communities are definitely not a new phenomenon,

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<v Speaker 4>but I think what's unique with Taylor right now is

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<v Speaker 4>we do have so much choice at the moment with

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<v Speaker 4>what we listen to, what we watch, what we want

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<v Speaker 4>to sort of talk about, and I think for an

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<v Speaker 4>artist to have had that kind of widespread appeal and

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<v Speaker 4>hype that Taylor has right now is pretty significant. I Mean, Beyonce,

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<v Speaker 4>i'd say, has had a similar kind of legacy that

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<v Speaker 4>she's building in terms of what she's doing and the

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<v Speaker 4>hype around what you know, she just announced her new

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<v Speaker 4>music this week as well.

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<v Speaker 3>But yeah, I think that's what kind of makes Taylor unique.

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<v Speaker 4>And I think also as somebody who's studying fan studies,

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<v Speaker 4>I think her fandom is so engaged and they are

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<v Speaker 4>so you know, loyal to her and involved in so

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<v Speaker 4>many different ways that I think that's another aspect of

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<v Speaker 4>why we've seen this kind of hype that we perhaps

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<v Speaker 4>haven't seen in a little while when it comes to

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<v Speaker 4>artists coming to Australia.

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<v Speaker 1>I was going to say, I feel like, growing up,

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<v Speaker 1>I always heard about Beatlemania, and it feels like Taylor

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<v Speaker 1>Swift coming is our generation's equivalent of that, or is

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<v Speaker 1>she even bigger than that. I don't know. It's so

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<v Speaker 1>hard to understand what it was like back then compared

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<v Speaker 1>to what it's like now.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think that's the thing.

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<v Speaker 4>I think it's hard to compare one for the other,

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<v Speaker 4>and there are definitely some similarities and definitely some differences.

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<v Speaker 4>I think with Taylor too, being a female artist coming

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<v Speaker 4>here as well, that's been really interesting. She often sort

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<v Speaker 4>of gets compared to these other sort of legacy acts

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<v Speaker 4>and people aren't sure whether we should be talking about

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<v Speaker 4>her in the same category as the Beatles, for example,

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<v Speaker 4>And I think that's due to some kind of broader

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<v Speaker 4>gendered things we have with the music industry.

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<v Speaker 1>But I really want to understand why Taylor Swift is

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<v Speaker 1>so unique, because it feels like there are pop stars,

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<v Speaker 1>then there are superstars, and then it feels like there's

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<v Speaker 1>Taylor Swift who is just completely in her own field.

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<v Speaker 1>And I want to understand what is it about Taylor

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<v Speaker 1>Swift and what she has done has meant that she

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<v Speaker 1>has managed to break through in the way that she has.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, it's an interesting question. I think that's what

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<v Speaker 4>everybody's trying to figure out right now. I think for starters,

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<v Speaker 4>she has released a lot of music. I mean, since

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<v Speaker 4>the last time she was in Australia, we had Lover,

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<v Speaker 4>We've had Folklore Evermore, Midnights, We've had all the re recordings. Like,

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<v Speaker 4>there's just such a volume of work for people to

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<v Speaker 4>engage with across different genres too. I know a lot

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<v Speaker 4>of people who maybe aren't big country music fans or

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<v Speaker 4>an't big pop music fans, really came on board with

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<v Speaker 4>Folklore and Evermore and sort of realize all of a

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<v Speaker 4>sudden that perhaps they, you know, were a TAYLOR'SWIF fan,

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<v Speaker 4>or that they liked some of the music that she had.

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<v Speaker 4>And so I think from that point of view, she's

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<v Speaker 4>managed to accumulate a sort of broader fan base than

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<v Speaker 4>she had originally. And I think also she has been

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<v Speaker 4>doing a lot of things outside of music that have

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<v Speaker 4>had an impact. As I mentioned the re recording, a

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<v Speaker 4>lot of people have been interested in that sort of

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<v Speaker 4>story of her going back and re recording these albums.

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<v Speaker 4>And while she's not the first artist to do it.

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<v Speaker 4>I think the way that she's done it, and the

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<v Speaker 4>way that the fans have gotten behind her as well,

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<v Speaker 4>and the way that I guess she's advocating for other

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<v Speaker 4>musicians in the industry and trying to make things better

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<v Speaker 4>with the power that she has. I think in the

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<v Speaker 4>documentary Miss Americana, somebody says, you know, Taylor Swift is

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<v Speaker 4>the music industry, and it's really hard to talk about

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<v Speaker 4>any kind of aspect of the music industry right now

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<v Speaker 4>that hasn't had, you know, some conversation about Taylor Swift.

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<v Speaker 1>I also really want to understand what the role of

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<v Speaker 1>social media is in her success and how has she

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<v Speaker 1>used that differently to other people, because all artists have

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<v Speaker 1>social media, But what is it about how she has

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<v Speaker 1>used it that has meant she has been able to

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<v Speaker 1>cultivate this fan base.

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<v Speaker 4>I think with Taylor, right from the beginning, she's always

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<v Speaker 4>made a point of engaging with the fans and keeping

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<v Speaker 4>them in the loop and really making them a part

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<v Speaker 4>of her success in a way that has meant that

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<v Speaker 4>a they've come along for the journey with her. But

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<v Speaker 4>now that she's at this point where she's so huge,

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<v Speaker 4>she doesn't really need the media in the same way

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<v Speaker 4>that a lot of other artists do, just given how

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<v Speaker 4>famous and popular she is right now, and so she's

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<v Speaker 4>got that kind of direct relationship with her fans where

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<v Speaker 4>often she'll announce things to them for the first time,

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<v Speaker 4>whether it's on Instagram, you know, TikTok, whatever it might be.

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<v Speaker 4>And I think having that ability to sort of shape

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<v Speaker 4>the messaging and engage directly with the people that are

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<v Speaker 4>engaging with her music, I think has been really important,

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<v Speaker 4>and for things like when she was having that is

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<v Speaker 4>she was Scooter Borne and the masters is being able

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<v Speaker 4>to just literally directly say to the fans, like, this

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<v Speaker 4>is what's happening, this is where I kind of need

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<v Speaker 4>your support. And I think she's always been very good

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<v Speaker 4>at mobilizing her fans in that way. And so while

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<v Speaker 4>other artists definitely use social media, I think for some

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<v Speaker 4>people it's used as more of kind of like a

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<v Speaker 4>broadcast channel where they just sort of update people. When

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<v Speaker 4>you think about somebody like Harry Styles, who you know

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<v Speaker 4>has a great relationship with his fans, but he doesn't

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<v Speaker 4>really engage online. He kind of just posts updates of

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<v Speaker 4>what he's doing, and so I think it takes a

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<v Speaker 4>long time to cultivate that, and I think for Taylor,

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<v Speaker 4>she's done that right from the beginning, and that's why

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<v Speaker 4>it's working so well for her.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, yeah, you're saying that makes me think about how

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<v Speaker 1>I follow Taylor Swift on Instagram and it feels like

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<v Speaker 1>she's talking directly at me somehow, even though she's speaking

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<v Speaker 1>to hundreds of millions, if not billions, But it genuinely

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<v Speaker 1>feels like the communication style makes her feel like a

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<v Speaker 1>close friend almost, whereas everyone else I follow on social media,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't really feel that close or direct communication for me.

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<v Speaker 4>I think that's what Taylor Swift's strength is, whether it's

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<v Speaker 4>through her music and through her songwriting, or through the

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<v Speaker 4>way that she engages with fans online and offline. For me,

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<v Speaker 4>Taylor Swift is just so good at connecting with people.

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<v Speaker 4>She's able to relate to people. You know, you listen

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<v Speaker 4>to a Taylor Swift song and there's always somebody who's like,

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<v Speaker 4>oh my god, I feel like this was written about me.

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<v Speaker 4>Or as you said, I think in the way that

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<v Speaker 4>she does talk to her fans, she talks to them

0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:41.520
<v Speaker 4>like friends.

0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:44.240
<v Speaker 3>She doesn't talk to them as I'm this big celebrity. Yeah.

0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:46.440
<v Speaker 1>I think that's what's so interesting is that she feels

0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:49.720
<v Speaker 1>relatable even though she could not be less relatable. I

0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:53.080
<v Speaker 1>want to move to fan culture more broadly. It feels

0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:57.120
<v Speaker 1>like it is predominantly led by young women and girls.

0:11:57.600 --> 0:11:58.280
<v Speaker 1>Why is that.

0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:00.360
<v Speaker 4>I think a lot of Taylor Swift fans and other

0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:03.679
<v Speaker 4>pop music fans are seen or perceived to be, you know,

0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:05.760
<v Speaker 4>predominantly female, and while there.

0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:07.480
<v Speaker 3>Is obviously diversity.

0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:10.959
<v Speaker 4>There within any fan community, I think those overarching perceptions

0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:14.360
<v Speaker 4>have over the years often sometimes had a negative impact

0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:18.600
<v Speaker 4>because they're seen as hysterical or delusional, or their fandom

0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:21.640
<v Speaker 4>is like really trivial. Because that's just kind of the

0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:25.679
<v Speaker 4>way that we treat women's interests unfortunately in society, is that,

0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:28.320
<v Speaker 4>you know, we just kind of dismiss them compared to

0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:30.439
<v Speaker 4>other things. And I think that's definitely shifted over the

0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:33.400
<v Speaker 4>last couple of years with Barbie and with Taylor Swift,

0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:35.640
<v Speaker 4>and I guess with young women sort of coming into

0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:39.400
<v Speaker 4>their own around really celebrating the things that they like

0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:42.280
<v Speaker 4>and celebrating the things that they're interested in. But I

0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:45.400
<v Speaker 4>always find it interesting, obviously, when we compare to something

0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:48.680
<v Speaker 4>like sports fandom, where we don't have those same kind

0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:52.199
<v Speaker 4>of conversations over their fandom being too much, or their

0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:56.800
<v Speaker 4>expressions of passion being seen as you know, overly emotional,

0:12:56.880 --> 0:12:58.240
<v Speaker 4>for example, in the same way.

0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:00.040
<v Speaker 3>That we might do for pop fans.

0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:03.160
<v Speaker 4>And so yeah, with my research, I'm really interested in

0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:06.640
<v Speaker 4>looking at the ways that fans participate in these communities,

0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:09.760
<v Speaker 4>and particularly for young women, how being part of a

0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:12.679
<v Speaker 4>fan community can be quite beneficial in terms of that connection,

0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:15.319
<v Speaker 4>in terms of building a sense of self and also

0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:18.240
<v Speaker 4>even sort of learning particular skills that then they can

0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:20.520
<v Speaker 4>go on to use in you know, the creative industries

0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:23.280
<v Speaker 4>or other sort of male dominie industries down the track.

0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:28.000
<v Speaker 1>That comparison between you know, young men or men who

0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:30.800
<v Speaker 1>are obsessed with sport for example, and how we treat

0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:33.640
<v Speaker 1>that compared to how we treat the fans of artists

0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:35.520
<v Speaker 1>like Tailor Swift is super interesting. I don't think I've

0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:37.360
<v Speaker 1>ever fully thought about that.

0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:40.080
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, and I think definitely it's sort of changing, but

0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:42.800
<v Speaker 4>I think it's important, you know, particularly as Taylor Swift

0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:45.120
<v Speaker 4>gets to Australia, I have seen already a lot of

0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:46.800
<v Speaker 4>people say, oh, it's already too much.

0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:48.439
<v Speaker 3>I'm sick of seeing all these fans.

0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:50.880
<v Speaker 4>I'm sick of seeing, you know, all of this behavior,

0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:53.240
<v Speaker 4>and I think, you know, unless you're doing the same

0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:55.240
<v Speaker 4>thing for people at the football or at the super

0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:57.400
<v Speaker 4>Bowl or anything like that, I think it's just important

0:13:57.440 --> 0:13:59.800
<v Speaker 4>to just think about the ways that perhaps we have

0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:01.880
<v Speaker 4>a double standard when it comes to the ways that

0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:03.480
<v Speaker 4>people are passionate about things.

0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:07.080
<v Speaker 1>Just lastly, I've been hearing a lot about how it

0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:08.760
<v Speaker 1>feels like Taylor Swift is at the peak of her

0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:11.080
<v Speaker 1>career and how long can this kind of success go

0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:14.280
<v Speaker 1>on for? Do you think that this level of fame

0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:17.000
<v Speaker 1>can be sustained for long periods of time?

0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:19.240
<v Speaker 4>I mean, I think in terms of Australia, obviously, the

0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:21.720
<v Speaker 4>fact that she's coming here this month means that there's

0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:24.240
<v Speaker 4>a real heightened interest in her that I think will

0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:28.360
<v Speaker 4>drop off once she's left from the broader society obviously,

0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:31.200
<v Speaker 4>not for the fans. It's interesting because I think when

0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:33.760
<v Speaker 4>we think back to nineteen eighty nine, and you know

0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:36.440
<v Speaker 4>that sort of twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen time, a lot

0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:39.000
<v Speaker 4>of people thought that was the peak of Taylor Swift's fame.

0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:41.880
<v Speaker 4>You know, she really was everywhere as well, she'd just

0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:44.360
<v Speaker 4>won the Grammy again, and you know, she was just

0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:47.160
<v Speaker 4>infiltrating the culture in so many ways, and she's really

0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:49.320
<v Speaker 4>eclipsed that over the last year, which I think is

0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:51.760
<v Speaker 4>really interesting. So I think we could never say is

0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:55.680
<v Speaker 4>this the peak? But I think she just has reached

0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:58.480
<v Speaker 4>a level that I think will definitely be hard to top,

0:14:58.600 --> 0:14:59.760
<v Speaker 4>both for her and for other.

0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:01.080
<v Speaker 3>People over the next few years.

0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:04.480
<v Speaker 4>But she's still producing so much music, She's still wanting

0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:07.640
<v Speaker 4>to be a creative person and keeping producing things. So

0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:10.560
<v Speaker 4>who knows where the next few years will take her

0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:12.520
<v Speaker 4>and if this is something we'll see more of over

0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:13.320
<v Speaker 4>the next few years.

0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:15.600
<v Speaker 1>Kate, thank you so much for joining us on the

0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:16.280
<v Speaker 1>daily OS.

0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:17.520
<v Speaker 3>Thanks so much for having me.

0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:21.160
<v Speaker 2>If you have a spare two minutes this morning, we

0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:24.000
<v Speaker 2>would love it if you could fill out our podcast survey.

0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:26.880
<v Speaker 2>We have dropped the link in our show notes. We've

0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:29.720
<v Speaker 2>learned a lot from your answers so far, and it's

0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:32.320
<v Speaker 2>been so good to understand what you're loving and what

0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:36.080
<v Speaker 2>you're not loving and how we can improve. Thanks so much,

0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:38.280
<v Speaker 2>and we will speak to you again tomorrow morning.

0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:46.640
<v Speaker 1>My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Aarunda

0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:51.680
<v Speaker 1>bungelung cargottin woman from Gadigol country. The Daily oz acknowledges

0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:53.920
<v Speaker 1>that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:57.480
<v Speaker 1>Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

0:15:57.480 --> 0:16:00.440
<v Speaker 1>Strait island and nations. We pay our respects to the

0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:03.200
<v Speaker 1>first peoples of these countries, both past and present.