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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, the amount of screen time isn't that big deal.

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Speaker 2: It's what you're doing, what's happening in the processes of

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Speaker 2: your home, that matters most.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 2: Hello, this is doctor Justin Coulson, found of Happy Families

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Speaker 2: dot Com. Toda you. I'm here with Kylie, mum to

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Speaker 2: our six kids and the Happy Families podcast co host.

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Speaker 2: Today we were hanging in there with you, Victoria. One

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Speaker 2: more day to go until those restrictions start easing. So

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Speaker 2: so pleased that things are looking up bit by bit

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Speaker 2: for you school kids around New South Wales and Victoria

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Speaker 2: preparing to head back. In fact, some in certain circumstances

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Speaker 2: are already doing that.

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Speaker 3: I'm breathing a sigh of relief for them. This has

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Speaker 3: been such an.

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Speaker 2: Ordeal, it really has, it really really has. We could

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Speaker 2: talk about it for a long time. I think we've

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Speaker 2: given COVID and the lockdowns and things a lot of

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Speaker 2: time on the podcast. So today for the Doctor's Desk,

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Speaker 2: we're going to go in a completely different direction and

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Speaker 2: look at some non COVID related science that applies to mums, dads,

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Speaker 2: parents and families. First cap off the rank Today in

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Speaker 2: our three.

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Speaker 3: We're looking at screen time and the effects on early

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Speaker 3: adolescents mental health, and academic and social outcomes.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So this is a research paper that appeared in

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Speaker 2: what's called plus one. This is an open access peer

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Speaker 2: review journal. And really really like this study because it

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Speaker 2: highlights that we might be making too much noise about

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Speaker 2: worrying about how bad screen time is. But maybe and

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Speaker 2: maybe not. This has been one of those conversations that

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Speaker 2: you and I have been having for a long time

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Speaker 2: now on the podcast, and I've been researching it and

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Speaker 2: watching the data really closely, and this kind of this study,

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Speaker 2: I think highlights why it's such a controversial, provocative, and

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Speaker 2: confusing topic. In a nutshell, a little over, sorry, a

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Speaker 2: little under, twelve thousand United States kids aged nine to

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Speaker 2: ten participated in a study. The researchers were looking at

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Speaker 2: how much screen time the kids were getting and their

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Speaker 2: mental health. They looked also at whether they had any

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Speaker 2: behavior or problems. They considered academic performance, how were the

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Speaker 2: kids going at school, as well as sleep habits, peer relationships,

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Speaker 2: did a whole lot of analysis. Oh, they also looked

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Speaker 2: at the race and ethnicity of the kids and this

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Speaker 2: socioeconomic status of the families. And here's what they found.

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Speaker 2: Screen time does moderately correlate with worse mental health. That is,

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Speaker 2: as screen time goes up, so too do mental health issues. Modestly.

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Speaker 2: It also showed that there's a modest correlation between screen

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Speaker 2: time and behavior problems as well as poor as school outcomes,

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Speaker 2: worse sleep, But screen times associated with better relationships with peers.

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Speaker 2: And already you look at that and you're like, no, wonder,

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Speaker 2: this is confusing, No wonder people are going well? Is

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Speaker 2: screen time good? Are bad? And as you know, we've

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Speaker 2: talked abnorising about how it's not necessar proably about how

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Speaker 2: much screen time you're having, but what kind of screen

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Speaker 2: time you're having. Are you doing things productively? Are you

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Speaker 2: connecting and creating, or are you consuming.

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Speaker 3: We've also had conversations though around the fact that our

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Speaker 3: children's outcomes will be better if they're in strong friendship groups.

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Speaker 3: They've got strong relationships regardless of what ourse is going on,

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Speaker 3: they are going to carry them through those challenging times.

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Speaker 3: So this is a little bit of a confusing one.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's add a little bit more confusion to it.

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Speaker 2: What the researchers did is they considered the race and

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Speaker 2: ethnicity of the family that didn't have any relationship whatsoever

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Speaker 2: to those outcomes. But you know what did the socio

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Speaker 2: economic status of the family. So basically, socioeconomic status was

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Speaker 2: more strongly associated with each of those outcome measures than

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Speaker 2: screen time was. Now, we don't know what causes what,

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Speaker 2: and the small effects sizes really do suggest that screen

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Speaker 2: time in and of itself is probably unlikely to be

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Speaker 2: directly harm full to kids at the age of nine

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Speaker 2: or ten. And I think this is really fascinating because

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Speaker 2: what it's really highlighting is what's going on in the

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Speaker 2: walls of your home and specifically what's happening financially for

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Speaker 2: your family. It seems like the families that have more

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Speaker 2: resources have kids who do better at school, have fewer

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Speaker 2: behavior problems, sleep better, have more friends, and have better

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Speaker 2: at mental health, which is kind of a really bad

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Speaker 2: news story for people who are struggling financially. But what

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Speaker 2: it does do is it lightens the burden, lightens the

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Speaker 2: stress that so many parents are carrying around screens. And

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Speaker 2: this is consistent with what I've been saying on the

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Speaker 2: podcast and on my Facebook page for a couple of

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Speaker 2: years now. The amount of screen time isn't that big deal.

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Speaker 2: It's what you're doing, what's happening in the processes of

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Speaker 2: your home that matters most well.

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Speaker 3: And I think if you're actually asking the question, then

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Speaker 3: you're aware of what's going on in your home and

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Speaker 3: how it's impacting your home and your children's lives. And

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Speaker 3: so I think that the fact that you're aware of

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Speaker 3: it means that you're going to be more likely to

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Speaker 3: put things in place to make sure that it doesn't

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Speaker 3: become a big problem, as opposed to having your child

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Speaker 3: stuck in a room for five hours at a time

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Speaker 3: without any interaction.

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Speaker 2: I'm so glad you said that, And I think this

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Speaker 2: is one of the really critical things here. We're constantly

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Speaker 2: talking about screen time and the socio economic status comes

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Speaker 2: into it, But listening to a podcast like this gives

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Speaker 2: you the intention and the awareness so that the amount

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Speaker 2: of income that your family's got can become irrelevant. It

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Speaker 2: means that you now know this, and therefore you can

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Speaker 2: take action to encourage the kids to use their screens

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Speaker 2: in appropriate ways. For a moderate amount of time with

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Speaker 2: no stress or no pressure, and so long as they're

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Speaker 2: living a full and whole childhood spending time with their friends,

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Speaker 2: they're going to be just fine. They're really going to

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Speaker 2: be just fine. Let's have a look at the second study.

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Speaker 2: This one probably doesn't need a whole lot of time,

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Speaker 2: and it's just worth a quick mention because I really

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Speaker 2: think that it's useful and important. This one comes from

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Speaker 2: the journal Developmental and Behavioral Pediatrics, and it really just

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Speaker 2: looks at physical activity as a predictor and an outcome

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Speaker 2: of kids who have got depression and anxiety or what

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Speaker 2: we call emotional distress over time.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's interesting this kind of actually flow into each other.

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Speaker 3: They are like heavily involved in screens and they're less

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Speaker 3: likely to be out playing and using their bodies. But

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Speaker 3: if we are aware of the need for physical activity

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Speaker 3: with our children, then they're less likely to be on screens.

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Speaker 2: I hadn't even thought of that until you mentioned it.

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Speaker 2: We call that the displacement hypothesis, and the idea basically

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Speaker 2: is that screens stop kids from spending time with friends,

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Speaker 2: or doing exercise, or being outside in nature and all

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Speaker 2: that kind of stuff. So you're exactly right. In a nutshell.

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Speaker 2: This one's out of Canada. A whole bunch of kids,

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Speaker 2: fifteen hundred of them or thereabouts, were involved in this study.

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Speaker 2: Whether they were followed for four years from the age

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Speaker 2: of six through to the age of ten, and the

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Speaker 2: researchers looked at children who were playing sport at age

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Speaker 2: five as a predictor of whether or not they would

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Speaker 2: be depressed or anxious as they got older. And what

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Speaker 2: they basically found was that the kids who were participating

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Speaker 2: in sport at age five were less like and have depression,

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Speaker 2: less likely to have anxiety as they get a full

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Speaker 2: stop end of story, The study really supports getting your

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Speaker 2: kids involved in physical activity and maybe even some organized sport.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so this is where this one gets a little

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Speaker 3: bit tricky. Though. Last week we answered Amy and Sean's

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Speaker 3: question about when is too early to start extracurricula and

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Speaker 3: our comments delay, delay, delay.

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Speaker 2: That's right, Yes, how do we rat this? You put

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Speaker 2: me on the spot? Okay, so let's think this through.

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Speaker 2: One of the main reasons that we argue for delaying

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Speaker 2: children's involvement in extracurricular activities is because they need to

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Speaker 2: have unstructured time where they can explore the world and

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Speaker 2: be involved in free play and spending time with friends

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Speaker 2: and that kind of thing. We've also identified that there's

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Speaker 2: less of a village and parents are less inclined to

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Speaker 2: let the kids, especially age between six and ten, to

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Speaker 2: just toddle off down to the park or so. Where

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Speaker 2: we are, we're about five or six hundred meters away

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Speaker 2: from some bush land. There's some mountain bike tracks and

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Speaker 2: some nice rails through the bush about five six hundred

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Speaker 2: meters from our home. But I can't imagine you saying

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Speaker 2: to our seven year old daughter, Hey, why don't you

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Speaker 2: go for a bushwalk on your own this afternoon? Why

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Speaker 2: don't you just walk the six hundred meters down there,

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Speaker 2: it's almost a kilometer and then go for a walk

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Speaker 2: through the bush. We're not going to do that, right, no, okay,

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Speaker 2: just wanted to confirm. So what getting your children involved

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Speaker 2: in these activities does is it gives them the social

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Speaker 2: opportunities that they may not get because parents are busy,

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Speaker 2: two parents working, unavailable to take the kids for those

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Speaker 2: bushwalks or down to the park like perhaps they might

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Speaker 2: have back in our day, back in the seventies, back

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Speaker 2: in the eighties, back in the olden days, and so

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Speaker 2: by having them involved in something, it's giving them this

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Speaker 2: protective measure against ill health mental ill health.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'm going to go down a totally different road.

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Speaker 3: I don't think we need organized destructured sports for this

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Speaker 3: to have a positive impact in our children's lives. I

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Speaker 3: think we need to build the village. It's my big word,

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Speaker 3: but build the village. One of the best things about

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Speaker 3: our weekends is we've got a couple of neighbors who

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Speaker 3: live next door on either side of us, and our

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Speaker 3: seven year old spends the day with them. They're all boys.

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Speaker 3: She doesn't even have a girl to play with, and

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Speaker 3: she absolutely loves it. And I just love that they're

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Speaker 3: climbing trees and they're The other day I caught them

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Speaker 3: in the driveway. We had a palm tree that died

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Speaker 3: and it was hollowed out, it was pretty rodden, and

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Speaker 3: the three of them, a three year old, a five

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Speaker 3: year old and a seven year old are dragging this

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Speaker 3: tree stumped down to the trailer so that they could

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Speaker 3: put it in the trailer for the dum I just

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Speaker 3: loved it. It is they're working together. They've worked out

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Speaker 3: what they need to do and how far it's going

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Speaker 3: to take them, you know, to get that thing to

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Speaker 3: where it needed to go. I just I love it.

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Speaker 2: And it occupied them for thirty minutes to totally to

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Speaker 2: get that tree trunk down there.

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Speaker 3: And the other neighbors she's got a mulberry tree that

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Speaker 3: kind of hangs over our side of the fence, and

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Speaker 3: obviously we've spoken with her and she's fine with the

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Speaker 3: kids devouring whatever they can reach. So they're climbing up

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Speaker 3: the rock wall, holding down limbs for each other so

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Speaker 3: that they can grab the berries. It's those kinds of

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Speaker 3: experiences that help our children feel better connected with their environment,

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Speaker 3: so it's worth highlighting.

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Speaker 2: In the Canadian study, they're looking at organized sport children's

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Speaker 2: participation in organized sport as a proxy for physical activity

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Speaker 2: because it's much easier to measure and your kids playing

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Speaker 2: a sport rather than how much physical activity do your

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Speaker 2: kids get each day. What the real point of this

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Speaker 2: is is pretty simple. Your children are going to be protected,

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Speaker 2: not not guaranteed to be inoculated, but they're going to

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Speaker 2: be protected from depression and anxiety in those early childhood

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Speaker 2: years from six to ten. If they've got high levels

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Speaker 2: of social involvement. And if they've got high levels of

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Speaker 2: physical activity, they don't have to be playing a sport.

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Speaker 2: They don't have to be costing you money, they don't

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Speaker 2: have to be at the soccer fields at six fifteen

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Speaker 2: or seven fifteen on Saturday morning. It's just about getting

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Speaker 2: them being active. And like you said, if you can

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Speaker 2: do it in the neighborhood, it's going to be just

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Speaker 2: as good.

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Speaker 3: Up next, we're going to share the last study which

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Speaker 3: did my head in because there was too many big words.

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Speaker 3: We'll talk about that one after the rain.

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Speaker 2: There's a teas. Hey, listen up, we're going to give

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Speaker 2: you a headache in just a sec.

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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcasts.

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Speaker 4: Are Screens Creating Tension at home tweens, teens and Screens

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Speaker 4: is a webinar to guide families to healthy, safe superscreen solutions.

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Speaker 4: Bye today at Happy families dot com, dot au slash shop.

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Speaker 3: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 3: poor parent who just wants to answers now. And I

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Speaker 3: don't know how long it's going to take for us

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Speaker 3: to get answers out of this one, because there were

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Speaker 3: lots of lots of big words.

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Speaker 2: This is one of my favorite studies and I'm so

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Speaker 2: excited that we can talk about it. Brand new study

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Speaker 2: that's come out from the Society for Research and Child Development.

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Speaker 2: It's a monograph, which basically means that it's quite a

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Speaker 2: long essay that talks about something called perceptual access, reasoning,

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Speaker 2: and developing a representational theory of mind.

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Speaker 3: Just remember it's for the time for parent Okay.

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Speaker 2: So I'm going to break this down really simply. Whenever

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Speaker 2: I do a seminar about little people and their big feelings,

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Speaker 2: I talk about this thing called theory of mind. Have

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Speaker 2: you heard me talk about theory of mind before?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Okay, can you explain it?

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Speaker 3: No? Right, okay.

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Speaker 2: So theory of mine basically is my ability to understand

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Speaker 2: that you you're a psychological being, and that you have

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Speaker 2: mental states that may or may not be consistent with

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Speaker 2: what is true, and that you have mental states that

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Speaker 2: may or may not be consistent with what my mental state.

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Speaker 3: Is one five. So how am I supposed to know that?

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Speaker 2: Well, you're not five right.

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Speaker 3: Now, but I that's what you're talking about.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, okay. So the research basically shows that kids

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Speaker 2: have this thing called theory of mine developed from somewhere

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Speaker 2: around the age of four and a half to five

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Speaker 2: and a half. And the way that we know that

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Speaker 2: is because of what's called a false belief task. So

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Speaker 2: a false belief task walks works like this. Let's say

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Speaker 2: I'm sitting here with my soda Stream in my hand.

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Speaker 2: I've got my nice fizzy drink, by the way, that

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Speaker 2: was not sponsored, but anyone who's been following us for

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Speaker 2: a while knows that there's been this running gag now

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Speaker 2: about soda stream for a while. So I've got my

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Speaker 2: soda Stream bottle in my hand, I'm having a sip

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Speaker 2: of my carbonated water, and I'm feeling very good while

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Speaker 2: you and I sit on the front porch and have

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Speaker 2: a conversation. When my phone rings and I say, oh,

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Speaker 2: I just need to grab this call. I'm going to

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Speaker 2: throw my soda Stream back into the fridge so it

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Speaker 2: stays cold. I'll be back with you in five minutes.

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Speaker 2: So I answer the call, I pop my soda Stream

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Speaker 2: into the fridge, and then I go for a walk

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Speaker 2: through the backyard while I'm having this long detailed conversation

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Speaker 2: with somebody who needed my help. While I'm out in

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Speaker 2: the backyard, though you decide to be a bit of

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Speaker 2: a prankster, you go to the fridge, you pull my

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Speaker 2: soda stream out of the fridge, and you go and

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Speaker 2: hide it in the pantry. And when I finish my

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Speaker 2: phone call, I come into the kitchen to grab my

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Speaker 2: soda stream. And where am I going to look for

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Speaker 2: my drink bottle?

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Speaker 3: In the fridge?

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Speaker 2: That's right, I'm going to look at the fridge. Why

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Speaker 2: will I look there?

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Speaker 3: Because that's where you put it?

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Speaker 2: And how do you know that? That's why I would

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Speaker 2: be looking there when you know that it's somewhere else.

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Speaker 2: What's going on in my mind?

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Speaker 3: Well, that's where you last had it, Okay.

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Speaker 2: So in my mind, that's where it should be because

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Speaker 2: that's where I left it. Correct, right, Great, Now, if

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Speaker 2: you ask a child who's older than a round about

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Speaker 2: five to six years of age, they're going to give

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Speaker 2: that answer. But if you ask a child who is

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Speaker 2: younger than five to six years of age, they're actually

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Speaker 2: going to say that I'm going to look.

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Speaker 3: In the pantry. Why Because it's where they put.

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Speaker 2: It, and they know that it's there. They know that

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Speaker 2: you put it there, and because they know that it's there,

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Speaker 2: they also think that I know that it's there because

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Speaker 2: my brain and theirs are the same. In their mind,

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Speaker 2: they don't get that adults' brains are different to theirs.

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Speaker 2: And this is why we have these big temper tantrums

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Speaker 2: with little kids, because they haven't developed a theory of mind.

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Speaker 2: Well it's partly at least. They don't understand that people

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Speaker 2: see things differently. They can't comprehend that their mum or

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Speaker 2: their dad is saying no when everything in their brain

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Speaker 2: is saying yes, yes, yes, And how can you say that.

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Speaker 2: They're not just upset that we're saying no, they're upset

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Speaker 2: that this doesn't make sense because their brain and our

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Speaker 2: brain is supposed to be wired together. They're supposed to

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Speaker 2: be the same thing. So it's very confusing for them

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Speaker 2: as well as upsetting because they're being told no, that's

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Speaker 2: what theory of mind is. Researchers have always said, like

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Speaker 2: I said, somewhere around five ish is where theory of

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Speaker 2: mind kicks in. But these this new research suggests that

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Speaker 2: we've got it wrong, that the false belief task is

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Speaker 2: just one way of measuring theory of mind. Children can

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Speaker 2: actually guess and get it right, but they don't really

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Speaker 2: know how or why, and that it may be that

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Speaker 2: children need to be a little bit older, somewhere around

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Speaker 2: about seven, maybe even eight, before they really start to

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Speaker 2: understand what theory of mind is, before they really start

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Speaker 2: to get that you want something that's different to me

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Speaker 2: and not blow up about it.

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Speaker 3: Well, that was what I was getting to you as

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Speaker 3: a five year old, I don't see that. I don't

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Speaker 3: see that capacity yet.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly right. And this kind of ties in,

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Speaker 2: I think with other research that shows that children really

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Speaker 2: learn how to regulate their emotions much better by and

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Speaker 2: their behaviors around about the age of eight or nine.

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Speaker 3: So for me, this just highlights how much pressure we're

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Speaker 3: putting on our children to be school ready and to

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Speaker 3: be able to do things that are just beyond their

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Speaker 3: capacities too early. The pressure that they have to understand

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Speaker 3: all of this as a five year old.

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Speaker 2: There's so many factors, how much, so much expectation. We

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Speaker 2: think that because they're walking and talking, they should be

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Speaker 2: able to do all this stuff, and they can't. And

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Speaker 2: so the main reason that I really wanted to share

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Speaker 2: this particular piece of research is because it really it

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Speaker 2: really does cause us to pause and ask, are we

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Speaker 2: asking too much of our little kids in terms of

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Speaker 2: their capacity to understand what's going on, to regulate their behaviors,

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Speaker 2: to regulate their emotions, to hold it all together in

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Speaker 2: the ways that we're asking them to, and to understand

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Speaker 2: things emotionally and cognitively before they're ready. So what we

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Speaker 2: really need to do is just take the pressure off

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Speaker 2: and thank you, yeah exactly. We hope that you've enjoyed

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Speaker 2: the Doctor's Desk today. The links to all of the

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Speaker 2: studies will be shared in the show notes. If you

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Speaker 2: love the podcast, please tell a friend, Please share an

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Speaker 2: episode with a friend, or please jump onto Apple Podcasts

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Speaker 2: and leave your ratings and reviews so the pip can

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Speaker 2: find out about the podcast and make their family happier.

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Speaker 2: As always, we thank Justin rule On, our producer, and

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Speaker 2: Craig brus, our executive producer, for helping us to make

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Speaker 2: the podcast sound the way that it does. And if

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Speaker 2: you'd like more refo about how to make your family happier,

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Speaker 2: please visit us at Happy families dot com. Dorem