WEBVTT - The Beginning 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:16.200 This is the case of Marion Barter, a mother, teacher, 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:21.320 friend missing for twenty six years. 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:25.040 You know, no sign that she was going to vanish. 0:00:24.880 --> 0:00:25.479 That's for sure. 0:00:26.040 --> 0:00:30.200 The bizarre circumstances surrounding her disappearance, I'm not. 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:34.120 Sure if it was intentional or if there's something more foul afoot. 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:37.080 If you could imagine a teacher coming straight from say 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:39.400 little house on the prairie to the eighties, that was 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:40.080 Marian Barter. 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:45.800 What I say, whether you find Marian Barter dead or alive, 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:50.559 I honestly believe somebody has that key piece of information. 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:54.760 And the relentless quest of a daughter to find her mum. 0:00:55.080 --> 0:00:59.440 Something had happened, Something has happened to make her leave. 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:03.920 I am one hundred percent sure, one hundred percent sure 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:06.920 that somebody knows something. 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:18.000 The Lady Vanishers episode fifty four. I'm Alison Sandy. 0:01:19.240 --> 0:01:20.520 And I'm Brian Seymour. 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:29.360 Belgium, nineteen thirty nine, World War II was broken out. Traditionally, 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:32.640 Belgium has always tried to stay out of conflict, and 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:36.320 true to form, the Belgian government had already announced its 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:41.960 intention to remain neutral. They did this in World War 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:48.160 One two, but Germany still invaded, so the nation's leaders 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:55.040 knew they were only buying a little time. As expected, 0:01:55.240 --> 0:02:01.720 Belgium's economy and people were depressed. It was during this year, 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:05.680 on July ninth, to be specific, that Willy Copperol was 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:09.280 born in Tournay, about one and a half hours west 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:15.240 of the capitol. His father, Desiree David, was born in 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:19.000 nineteen oh five in Gellenden, a tiny Belgian village with 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:24.640 fewer than fifteen hundred people. His mother, Maria Coppernol, was 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:30.560 born in nineteen thirteen, also in Belgium. Desiree David died 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:34.840 in nineteen forty three of peritonitis, and Maria, who was 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:38.680 pregnant with Willy's younger brother, also called Desiree, lost her 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:44.320 leg when a bomb apparently fell on her bed. So 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:47.799 Willie was placed in an orphanage, where he would remain 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:52.359 until nineteen fifty one, six years after the war ended, 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:59.080 when he was almost a teenager. Willie's other younger brother, 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:02.880 Freddie David, died in nineteen eighty nine when he was 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:06.200 just forty eight years old. Apparently he fell to the 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:08.840 ground when he got out of the car. Cause of 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:12.360 death is believed to be an aneurysm or heart attack. 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:20.840 Shortly after, so did Maria and her second husband, Andre Wooters. 0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:24.440 The three of them all died within twelve months of 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:30.880 each other. You'll remember that only a few years earlier 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:35.560 they were all working together in the family's furniture business. 0:03:35.600 --> 0:03:40.480 Hello, Madam Willie David is my first cooking and when 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:44.880 you talk about Maria Kupernon, in fact, his mother was 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:48.760 my mother's older sister. The last time I had contact 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:51.920 with my cooking was in two thousand and seven, during 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:53.720 one of his visits to Belgium. 0:03:54.880 --> 0:03:56.960 I am one of the youngest. 0:03:56.560 --> 0:03:59.720 In the family, as my mom was the eleventh of 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:03.720 thirteen children, and Aunt Maya was among the orders. 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:07.600 This is from Blum's cousin, who last year responded to 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:10.600 emails from one of our devoted listeners who wishes to 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:15.360 remain anonymous, advising her that his aunt's uncles and mother 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:20.000 were raised by extremely upright parents. He said they had 0:04:20.040 --> 0:04:24.799 a Dutch speaking Catholic father, Charles Coppernall, who had quote 0:04:25.200 --> 0:04:26.480 high principles. 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:29.520 I know that my mother told me a lot about 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:32.200 how my cousin had done a lot of stupid things 0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:36.080 and had been in prison, especially in France. He was 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:40.919 not allowed to come to Belgium anymore. Principle, and my 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:44.800 aunt sometimes went to England to see him. My couldin 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:48.520 had started a career in the Gendarmerie as a horse 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:52.320 rider and married well in Brussels with someone from a 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:53.000 good family. 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:56.960 We understand he's referring to Janine Leroy, who had two 0:04:57.040 --> 0:04:59.920 children to him, including a son called Gayton. 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:04.120 Unfortunately, he had a very badfall from his horse and 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:08.839 what Declaire hunched it from the short amerily and later 0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:10.240 there was a divorce. 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:14.120 Just for completeness. Willie very briefly married again, at this 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:17.040 time to a woman called Nicole Reynold. 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:22.000 My mother said that this has tacted him greatly psychologically 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:27.600 and unfortunately leading down a slop. He then started bouncing 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:31.440 checks and that kind of his chief. I have the 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:34.159 impression that my mother used to tell me about the 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:38.640 trips to England. Around nineteen eighty to nineteen eighty six, 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:43.520 both my aunt and her three sons ran finisher shops 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:49.560 in Belgium and Luxembourg. It was in his family business. 0:05:49.600 --> 0:05:52.360 He said. His aunt Maria was a bit rejected by 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:55.719 some of her siblings because of Willie's mistakes. 0:05:56.000 --> 0:05:59.760 He still has a brother, but they have no contact. However, 0:05:59.880 --> 0:06:02.520 I think he had contact with what the cookings of 0:06:02.600 --> 0:06:04.160 ours in TURNI. 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:08.200 And that Blum's youngest brother, Desiree, is still alive. 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:11.880 Didier kept in touch with one of my own's a 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:13.160 million's daughters. 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:16.760 It was the information from this cousin which led to 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:21.080 the discovery of Charlotte, a pseudonym we used to protect 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:21.839 her identity. 0:06:22.320 --> 0:06:26.920 I had a cooking, Michelle Copennaut, who died in twenty ten, 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:31.240 a little before my mother. I know from an uncle 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:34.200 that really had an affair with my cookin's widow a 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:37.919 few months after his death, and he is said to 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:40.760 have this possessed her of a certain amount of money. 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:46.520 We passed this on to Tom and Yannick, and the 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:51.400 rest is history. It seems. Willis many years and the 0:06:51.520 --> 0:06:58.040 orphanage left its mark. You may recall this one story 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:00.839 he told Everlyn about his life, the time. 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:05.120 He used to bury people alive when he was growing up. 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:07.040 That one of the things that he liked to do 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:13.239 in the village, him and some of his friends. Someone 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:15.480 had harmed one of the girls in the village, so 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:18.440 they got the guy and they buried him alive. With 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:22.040 hungry cats, and that this is you know, how they 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:23.600 used to take care of people. 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:28.040 It's hard to separate fact from fiction with Rick Blum. Remember, 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:31.720 he has also told people that his entire family died 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:36.880 in Nazi death camps, which is completely untrue. At the 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:40.000 very least, he seems to have had a troubled upbringing, 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:45.119 abandoned by his parents, raised by strangers, forced to fend 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:49.680 for himself at a time where everyone was fighting for survival. 0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:54.080 We do know for a fact that his daughter, Evelyn, 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:59.320 had a difficult childhood, enduring abuse and trauma, thanks partially 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:02.560 at least to her father's total lack of interest in 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:09.560 her well being. However, she grew into a very different person. Here, 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:13.320 she recalls when she found out Blum was her real father. 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:18.160 It was around the age of fifteen, maybe sixteen years old. 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:22.520 I had an interaction with my stepfather. It wasn't a 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:25.960 very nice one, and he threw some passports at me. 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:29.400 He said, you're not my daughter. He saw at me, 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:33.400 you get out of this house, and then he said 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:36.000 some other things which I can't repeat. That really bad. 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:39.080 It wasn't told to me in a very nice way. 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:43.520 So it was it was incredibly shocking. So I think 0:08:43.559 --> 0:08:48.640 I just wandered around the streets of Melbourne numb for 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:52.200 a couple of days. I didn't know who I was, 0:08:53.280 --> 0:08:57.679 so and that was the experience of how I found out. 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:03.839 We leave Luxembourg earlier the day after meeting with Monique 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:06.640 to drive back to Brussels, but not before taking a 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:11.600 detour to travel to Rick Blum's hometown, Tournay. Heading into 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:21.920 Tournay and seventy thousand people, quite large, but not far 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:26.320 from the boarder from France, Litl is only twenty kilometers away, 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:31.400 and we're heading to the police station, but not before 0:09:31.440 --> 0:09:34.960 getting a nice cup of coffee. I didn't know what 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:37.480 to e throw from Tornae. I hear it's a medieval town, 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:40.679 so I can see some a little bit further up, 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:45.640 there's some nice spires and looks really pretty. It's not 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:48.520 really on the tourist route though, so it's one of 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:52.640 those things that you'd only go to if we're going 0:09:52.640 --> 0:09:55.439 out of your way and had a reason to. Generally, 0:09:57.240 --> 0:10:01.160 it's no Bruges. While we're here, we're planning on seeing 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:05.760 a house that was in the name of Freddie David. 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:08.319 We don't know if that's the real Freddie David arm 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:13.640 or actually Brick Blum using the name Blum using the 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:16.040 name Freddie David. So we're not quite sure which one 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:19.120 it is, but we're going to check out the house anyway. 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:22.520 The alleged home of Freddie David is a two story 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:27.720 red brick terrace apartment down a narrow alleyway. Within a 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:31.360 few minutes walking distance is the Grand Place, home to 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:36.080 the city's historic Belfry and the fabulously Gothic Cathedral of 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:39.920 Our Lady, which dates back to the twelfth century. Like 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:44.640 the Belfry, it's a World Heritage Site. There's also a 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:48.080 statue of Marie Christine de la Lange, who was the 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:51.559 governor's wife back in the sixteenth century and when he 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:55.440 was away and the city was invaded, she successfully led 0:10:55.480 --> 0:10:59.439 the defense against a Spanish army general, the Duke of Palmer. 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:04.320 So here I am in Tourney, and it is a 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:07.760 very working class town, there's no doubt about it. And 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:09.600 I'm not far from the police station where I just 0:11:09.640 --> 0:11:11.520 went in and for chan it's lunchtime, so I didn't 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:13.200 get to speak to who I needed to speak to. 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:17.480 This lovely young officer asked me basically what I thought 0:11:17.480 --> 0:11:19.240 of the town, and I said, oh, it's really lovely. 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:22.280 It's medieval and really pretty. I really like it. 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:23.760 And she's so very poor though. 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:26.160 It's very poor, which of course is true. There's no 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:30.720 sign of any affluence and a lot of emythy shops, 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:35.320 but the medieval history is amazing. I just can't get 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:40.800 over how much this city really has to offer. It's 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:44.280 an old, fortified city, there's a lot of nancial architecture 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:48.360 and it's just beautiful. So definitely recommend coming to Tournay. 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:54.360 Tournay is one of the oldest cities in Belgium. It 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:58.160 was fortified under Emperor Maximian in the third century AD 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:03.280 and was very wealthy in the Middle Ages. The city 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:06.800 is predominantly French speaking, and much of the population here 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:13.120 considers itself more French than Belgian. Like Luxembourg, It's had 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:16.320 many rulers and is the only Belgian city which was 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:20.959 once part of England. When Henry the Eighth reigned, he 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:25.320 defended the Stronghold, building an enormous tower and castle, with 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:30.560 sentries and bow men posted there. The tower has now 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:33.640 been turned into a weapons museum, most of which are 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:38.840 from World War II. Tournay was badly damaged in nineteen 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:41.680 forty when the Germans invaded, and a lot of the 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:46.439 city has had to be rebuilt. Now back to Evelyn 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:49.720 and her interview with Liam Bartlett from Spotlight. Much of 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:52.439 this was mentioned in my earlier interview, by there are 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:56.760 extra bits and pieces which provide more context to her recollections. 0:12:56.920 --> 0:13:00.320 I went back to the to my stepfather's house when 0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:04.360 he wasn't home, and then I went into the wardrobe 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:08.320 and I went looking for things, and that's where I 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:12.360 found all the photos with my mother and Rick Bloom 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:16.760 as he's called now, And I took those things. 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:19.719 And they were all the early fo all the. 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:24.440 Early photographs, and they looked so happy and so in love. 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:27.520 So yeah, I thought, Yeah, there's someone out there that's 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:32.360 that sort of cares about me, and that I'll find 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:36.200 that person. Yeah, But it wasn't straight away. I didn't 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:39.880 move on that straight away because my life was pretty 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:43.160 hectic for many years. I didn't really get a chance 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:45.079 to act on it until I was into my twenties. 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:48.199 Evelyn is talking about the photographs of herself with her 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:51.880 mother before she died, and images from her mum's wedding 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:54.320 to Rick Bloom then Willie Wooters. 0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:59.880 Those photographs are quite how can I put it there? 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:05.480 Those photographs are quite reflective of what looks like a 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:07.080 good relationship, doesn't it. 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:08.719 Yes, I would think so. 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:13.560 Much happier days. Obviously it went downhill very quickly, but 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:15.520 it's quite interesting to look back on. 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:17.560 I don't know what to make of it. I think 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:20.760 that my mother and he may have loved each other. 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:23.880 It looks like that. I've only got the photos to 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:28.640 go on. The stories about their relationship are certainly very 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:34.200 different to what the photos look like, so I'm not sure. Really. 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:37.440 I don't think their relationship was long. I think that 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:41.000 he was already married and already had had children, and 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:41.880 he lied to her. 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:45.080 Do you think he was married when he married him? 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:45.240 Um? 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:51.240 Well, what I understand is that he was married. She 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:55.160 was just nineteen. My grandmother found out he was married. 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:59.160 He very quickly divorced, and he hadn't been with his 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:02.080 first wife for very long and then he married my mother. 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:04.600 So he could have been a bigness. 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:05.280 He could have been anything. 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:07.960 It's been hard, has it for you to sort of 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:12.280 nail down those dates from the records and his actions. 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:17.000 It's been near impossible to nail down anything, So. 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:23.600 Help me out here when you're born, He decides quite quickly, 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:28.600 that's it. I'm off the relationships over. Is that? Am 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:29.720 I interpreting it right? 0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:30.320 Well? 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:36.240 You might be, but your guess is probably as good 0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:41.080 as my guess. I don't think anyone actually knows, and 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:43.920 that's what the problem is. We can only go buy 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:50.080 the paperwork that's there and it looks like they came 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:53.760 to Australia together. No one really knows what's happened from there. 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:59.560 There's just the stories that people share. My mother, I think, 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:03.920 was going back and forth overseas. She had some different places. 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:07.360 She stayed here in Australia. I believe I was just 0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:10.200 a couple of weeks old and I was sent on 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:13.880 a plane back to my grandmother's in here in Belgium, 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:17.960 so I wasn't with her the whole time. I don't know. 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:21.520 I don't know how long they were together for or 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:26.200 not together for. I think she married my stepfather in 0:16:26.360 --> 0:16:29.360 seventy two, so I would have been around two years old. 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:31.000 But again I'm not really sure. 0:16:31.560 --> 0:16:33.360 When you did get the chance to track him down, 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:36.520 how old were you when you had a first conversation 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:37.920 with him. 0:16:38.600 --> 0:16:43.600 I would have been around twenty five, maybe twenty six 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:48.280 years old around that time. Yeah, so nineteen ninety five. 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:50.680 And how did that first conversation go. 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:55.080 The very first conversation was a phone call. There was 0:16:55.760 --> 0:17:00.640 very short, very sweet. He seemed happy to hear from me. 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:06.200 He had been pre told by their consulate in Australia 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:09.600 that he had a daughter, so it was I didn't 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:12.400 have to call him and announce myself in that way. 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:14.919 He was expecting my call and we just organized to 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:18.840 catch up for dinner and then then we met in 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:23.639 near an overtwel in Melbourne, went to some restaurant for dinner, 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:28.040 and that's where he proceeded to tell me that he 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:34.320 was a coin dealer, international traveler dealing in coins. 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:34.760 He had a. 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:37.600 Briefcase with him that was full of cash. You just 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:40.760 got back from a big trip overseas where he sold 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:41.800 lots of coins. 0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:44.840 That's what he told you. Did you see the cash? 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:47.960 No, I didn't. I didn't ask to. I was just 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:51.879 excited just to meet my father, so I just enjoyed 0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:54.680 the dinner. And for the first first time. 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:58.600 Did you ask him in that conversation? You know what 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:03.200 happened that. I mean, all those years, what what what 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:03.760 went wrong? 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:04.800 Uh? 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:10.160 Yeah I did. I did ask him. I said to him, 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:16.200 how come you never came in looked for me? And 0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:20.400 he said, I didn't. I didn't know that. I didn't 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:23.560 know anything about you. My first knowledge of you was 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:27.080 the Consulate calling me to let me know I had 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:29.760 a daughter. I didn't even know your mother was dead 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:31.639 until now that you've told me. 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:32.960 Did you believe that? 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:38.280 I'm not sure I believed it, but I accepted that 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:41.320 that's what he said at the time. I didn't question 0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:41.879 it further. 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:45.159 You wanted to believe it? 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:52.320 Oh no, Oh no, I know absolutely. Just I am 0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:56.960 still struggling to come to terms with how much he lies, 0:18:57.720 --> 0:19:00.600 and you know that's just one of all his lies. 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:05.480 How many conversations have you had with him all up. 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:05.840 All up? 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:09.400 I mean, it would be probably less than ten times 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:11.360 that I've caught up with him, but I can't give 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:16.960 you an exact number because I don't remember each time clearly. 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:23.200 I just remember the times where there were things said 0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:29.159 that left me left me really just feeling traumatized and 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:33.679 scared and unable to process. Well I had been what 0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:36.720 he would whatever it was that he was saying to me, So, 0:19:36.760 --> 0:19:38.160 I have those sorts of memories. 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:41.560 Can you talk to me about some of those conversations. 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:44.879 I mean, clearly, he's never taken it a step further, 0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:48.640 Clearly he doesn't want to be part of your life 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:51.480 and has never made any attempt to do so. But 0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:53.600 what sort of things has he told you in those 0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:58.000 times that you have had a father daughter conversation, if 0:19:58.040 --> 0:19:59.639 I can put it that way, Yeah, I. 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:04.960 It that way. But yeah, So in the first couple 0:20:05.040 --> 0:20:10.439 of meetings with him, I spoke to him about an 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:17.480 inheritance from my grandmother and she owned a property in Brussels, 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:22.679 and I felt that something had gone amiss with that 0:20:23.040 --> 0:20:27.920 whole settlement procedure. And he said that he would be 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:32.760 doing a trip to Belgium soon and he may know 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:37.320 a friend of a cousin or a distant cousin of 0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:41.160 someone to have something to do with my family. He'd 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:43.400 find something out and that when he came back, you'd 0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:45.840 get in touch and let me know if he'd been 0:20:45.880 --> 0:20:51.040 able to find any information out about it. He told 0:20:51.119 --> 0:20:56.760 me that he thought as well that my mother was 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:05.520 a slut, and. 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:04.560 He said to you, he said that to me this 0:21:04.720 --> 0:21:06.000 is the woman that he married. 0:21:05.720 --> 0:21:09.040 The woman, Yes, yeah, Why. 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:11.040 Would he say that? Why would you paint your mother 0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:14.240 in that light to you years after she'd passed away. 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:18.320 I mean, I can't answer that question. I don't know 0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:24.879 why anyone would say something like that about someone that 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:29.639 they apparently loved, someone that's dead. They're not there to 0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:33.560 defend themselves and to someone that you meant to care 0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:36.879 about your daughter. They just there's nothing about that that 0:21:36.960 --> 0:21:40.000 I can provide an answer for that makes any sense 0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:43.639 to me. I thought he was just horrible. And then 0:21:44.359 --> 0:21:47.560 he went on to tell me that he had found 0:21:47.560 --> 0:21:52.440 out some information about my grandmother's inheritance while he was overseas, 0:21:53.040 --> 0:21:59.080 and that there's not a rumor rumor is the wrong word, 0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:02.880 but there's a sort of an understanding in what's left 0:22:02.880 --> 0:22:06.199 of my family, people who I've never never met, but 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:11.080 who are aware of the two children of Alner. They 0:22:11.200 --> 0:22:16.000 live in Australia, and the understanding is that there was 0:22:16.560 --> 0:22:24.000 some sort of arrangement made where my grandmother's second husband 0:22:24.280 --> 0:22:31.679 could keep the state in exchange for the daughter being 0:22:32.800 --> 0:22:38.600 given as a I don't know, you know, the stepfather 0:22:38.760 --> 0:22:41.840 in Australia could keep the daughter and the step grandfather 0:22:41.880 --> 0:22:44.800 could keep the money. So that doesn't make a lot 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:47.280 of sense. It makes no sense. I didn't speak to 0:22:47.359 --> 0:22:50.920 him again after that for quite a few years. It 0:22:50.960 --> 0:22:57.040 wasn't something I was able to at all understand. And 0:22:57.720 --> 0:22:59.320 it's not that I can't, it's not so much that 0:22:59.600 --> 0:23:02.240 I still don't understand it, but I mean, but at 0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:05.320 that time, that you know, the delivery of something like 0:23:05.400 --> 0:23:09.359 that was just it was it was very painful. I 0:23:09.400 --> 0:23:13.040 could barely repeat it to my partner at the time 0:23:13.119 --> 0:23:16.399 at the time, just that that the idea that something 0:23:17.200 --> 0:23:21.679 like that might have happened, or that that someone who 0:23:21.800 --> 0:23:24.399 is meant to be my father said something like that 0:23:24.520 --> 0:23:29.280 to me, Like I just it was just so out 0:23:29.320 --> 0:23:33.479 of this world to try to understand what any of 0:23:33.520 --> 0:23:37.240 that meant. But I knew he was no good, that, 0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:40.760 you know, after he said those things to me, I 0:23:40.800 --> 0:23:44.239 knew he was he was no good. I didn't want 0:23:44.280 --> 0:23:45.640 to have anything to do with him. 0:23:45.920 --> 0:23:49.040 So that impression that you got help him being no good, Yeah, 0:23:49.240 --> 0:23:52.520 it was just from those nine or ten conversations you've 0:23:52.560 --> 0:23:55.440 had with him in your life. Yeah, you worked out pretty. 0:23:55.280 --> 0:23:56.600 Quickly, pretty quick. Yeah. 0:23:56.960 --> 0:23:59.320 Yeah, when was the last time you spoke to him. 0:23:59.600 --> 0:24:03.960 So then fast forward a few years after that last interaction, 0:24:04.720 --> 0:24:08.720 my then partner thought that I should contact him. He 0:24:08.840 --> 0:24:10.840 was putting a great deal of pressure on me to 0:24:10.880 --> 0:24:16.159 contact him because he thought that maybe I had initially 0:24:16.480 --> 0:24:22.480 over dramatized those initial meetings and that maybe I would 0:24:22.520 --> 0:24:26.480 be able to get some sort of I guess the 0:24:26.480 --> 0:24:31.840 therapy closure. Yeah, from having some contact with him, and 0:24:31.920 --> 0:24:35.000 so yeah, at his bequest, I guess I just sort 0:24:35.040 --> 0:24:38.520 of went forward that way and I made contact with 0:24:38.600 --> 0:24:45.720 him again, and it was it was immediately bad. He 0:24:45.920 --> 0:24:48.200 answered the phone, I said who it was, and he said, 0:24:49.160 --> 0:24:51.879 what do you want? And then he said, you know 0:24:52.000 --> 0:24:55.760 you are you have something. I can't remember exactly how 0:24:55.800 --> 0:24:58.240 it went. You know, you know, how dare you ring me? 0:24:58.359 --> 0:25:00.640 Or you have no right to ring me? I transferred 0:25:00.680 --> 0:25:02.520 you ten thousand dollars to try and help me, and 0:25:02.560 --> 0:25:04.840 you didn't even have the decency to say thank you. 0:25:04.920 --> 0:25:06.440 I was just on the other end of the phone. 0:25:07.760 --> 0:25:09.720 What is this guy talking about? 0:25:10.080 --> 0:25:11.200 Is that right? Did he give you money? 0:25:11.280 --> 0:25:11.320 No? 0:25:11.760 --> 0:25:15.320 Can give me a cent? He said, I'll go and 0:25:15.400 --> 0:25:18.200 I'll go and look into it, check into my bank statement, 0:25:18.280 --> 0:25:20.960 and then I'll contact you back and then he came 0:25:21.000 --> 0:25:24.080 back and he said, oh, you know, something wasn't right, 0:25:24.480 --> 0:25:27.040 but okay, I'll talk. You know, I'll talk to you 0:25:27.080 --> 0:25:29.399 because I didn't. I didn't give you that money. It 0:25:29.680 --> 0:25:30.719 was just odd. 0:25:31.480 --> 0:25:33.240 Was he worried that you'd turn up on his doorstep 0:25:33.640 --> 0:25:36.840 in New South Wales, up in Balana or something and 0:25:37.359 --> 0:25:41.760 make yourself known to his current wife and his two kids. 0:25:42.920 --> 0:25:45.560 I'm not sure. I mean he may have been. He 0:25:45.600 --> 0:25:49.840