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Speaker 1: Will and Moddi.

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Speaker 2: We are brought to you by Stan the Safternoon Woods.

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Speaker 2: Last week I spoke about people who can be over

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Speaker 2: controlling and people who can be dominant, how damaging those

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Speaker 2: people can be to the other people in their lives,

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Speaker 2: the people that are around them. And I spoke about

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Speaker 2: it from the lens of the person who is over

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Speaker 2: controlling and dominant, and then that's me, And it was

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Speaker 2: really emotional, was very upsetting because I spoke about how

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Speaker 2: I know how much when I'm like that, I can

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Speaker 2: effectively hurt all of you guys. When you are a

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Speaker 2: controlling personality type or you're a dominant personality type and

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Speaker 2: you don't like yourself or you're suffering, you can't control that.

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Speaker 2: You still want to control things, but your control goes

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Speaker 2: into overdrive and so you projected onto everything else around you,

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Speaker 2: which ultimately means that you just dislike yourself more because

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Speaker 2: you're not dealing with the issue and you're hurting the

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Speaker 2: people around you.

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Speaker 3: It's a really really good thing for you to do,

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Speaker 3: because it's a very vulnerable and honest thing to put

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Speaker 3: your hand do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's why I did it totally. Yeah, And

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Speaker 2: I knew that other people could empathize and the response

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Speaker 2: online was truly immense.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and the response irl as well, that's in real

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Speaker 3: life because by you talking about all of a sudden,

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Speaker 3: our entire team is having conversations about okay, so, and

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Speaker 3: we're asking questions about you, what's going on for you

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Speaker 3: and how should we best respond and anyway, off the

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Speaker 3: back of the conversations we were having, we thought we'd

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Speaker 3: get doctor Emily Musgrove on for a chat. And if

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Speaker 3: you want to hear this entire chat with doctor Emilly.

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Speaker 3: She's a psychologist. By the way, you might know her

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Speaker 3: from the Imperfect podcast. She does little specials on that podcast.

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Speaker 3: They're all really brilliant. But we got her on and

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Speaker 3: if you want to hear the whole chat, yeah, go

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Speaker 3: to our podcast Will and Woody wherever you get your

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Speaker 3: podcasts from. But one of the questions we asked her

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Speaker 3: was just more on what's actually going on for a

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Speaker 3: person who feels they need to be more controlling in

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Speaker 3: that environment? What is this and what exactly is going

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Speaker 3: on there?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, look, there's probably a lot of different different

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Speaker 1: things that go on there and in some ways, obviously

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Speaker 1: without being will therapist, you know, I don't want to

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Speaker 1: be too kind of analytical on that.

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Speaker 2: Basis, but it's not a job application.

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Speaker 1: But I guess the things that stood out to me,

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Speaker 1: you know, around that was coming from this place of suffering,

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Speaker 1: and that you know, in this place of suffering, when

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Speaker 1: we're having a really hard time, you know, we often

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Speaker 1: seek to control or get rid of certain feelings, and

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Speaker 1: sometimes for some people that can come across as kind

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Speaker 1: of controlling behaviors which are really very much linked to

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Speaker 1: that experience also of anger. So how I would often

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Speaker 1: see that would be, you know, particularly in the case

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Speaker 1: of when there's an experience of anxiety or an experience

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Speaker 1: of like a depressive episode or low mood, that they

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Speaker 1: can be really kind of common features.

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Speaker 2: Weirdly, sometimes the need for control is if I'm in control,

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Speaker 2: then I get attention, and I get attention, and I

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Speaker 2: need attention when I'm sort of like needing love and

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Speaker 2: it's almost like a bit of a cry for help.

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Speaker 2: So it's if I if I'm needing love or I'm

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Speaker 2: not feeling love, or then yeah, if I can get

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Speaker 2: my hands on everything, then that means people have to

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Speaker 2: pay attention to me, and then that kind of fills

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Speaker 2: that void a little bit. So yeah, it's that's I

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Speaker 2: think that's what it really what it gets to, and

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Speaker 2: it's I think it really comes from being a kid

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Speaker 2: and being in a you know, sort of without That's

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Speaker 2: not unpack this box too much, but it is one

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Speaker 2: hundred percent looking for my looking for my parents' love.

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Speaker 1: Mm And I think that. I mean that's a really honest,

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Speaker 1: kind of heartfelt sense in there that and like in

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Speaker 1: a lot of ways too. I mean, this is relevant

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Speaker 1: for all of us as humans. Is this kind of

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Speaker 1: innate need to belong and the innate need to feel loved.

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Speaker 1: And you know, sometimes have we all have different ways

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Speaker 1: of feeling that or striving or achieving that sense of

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Speaker 1: feeling loved. And there may have seen some really adaptive

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Speaker 1: things that happened for us when we were little that

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Speaker 1: allowed us to feel really seen and to feel really loved,

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Speaker 1: and that those skills at that time were really useful.

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Speaker 1: But sometimes what can happen is into like adulthood, those

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Speaker 1: skills actually come with some problems. So that way of

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Speaker 1: seeking a sense of feeling loved or feeling belonging might

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Speaker 1: actually be detrimental to those relationships.

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Speaker 2: Ye, and we are talking to dr Emily Musgrow from

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Speaker 2: the Imperfect podcast about controlling or dominant personality types people

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Speaker 2: that can be over controlling. You will be able to

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Speaker 2: listen to this full chat on the Will and Woody

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Speaker 2: podcast wherever you get your podcasts in about ten minutes time.

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Speaker 2: That link's going to be up. But if you're still

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Speaker 2: with us and you're able to stay with this, then

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Speaker 2: please stick to the song because right up next we're

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Speaker 2: going to address the other side of this equation woods,

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Speaker 2: which is the people that have to live with, love

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Speaker 2: work with people who are dominant and over controlling, I

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Speaker 2: suppose from your perspective and for the rest of the

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Speaker 2: team's pubjective, how you guys deal with me.

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Speaker 3: She gives great advice on how to support those people

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Speaker 3: when they're in it. Yeah, so yeah, don't go anywhere.

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Speaker 2: Realmy kiss hey spelling what he brought to you by

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Speaker 2: stand this afternoon. Look, we are talking about over controlling

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Speaker 2: or dominant personality types, how tricky those people can be around,

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Speaker 2: how hard they can be to talk to. And I

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Speaker 2: spoke about this last week on the show, because I

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Speaker 2: can be like that, and I can be really hard

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Speaker 2: to be around. I can be really hard to speak.

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Speaker 3: To quickly also super handy, Like when we went out

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Speaker 3: to dinner last Monday, you order for the table. I'm

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Speaker 3: not going to take the piss like I never We

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Speaker 3: never want you to change your personality. If you are

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Speaker 3: a controlling or dominant person, that's a that's a great

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Speaker 3: trait that you've got. Yeah, but there are times when

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Speaker 3: it can tip into an area where it's like, oh,

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Speaker 3: maybe that's too much or that's undhurts me.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 2: I think it's just an example of and you can

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Speaker 2: hear this in part one with Dtor Emily Marsgrove on

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Speaker 2: the Will and Woody podcast in about ten minutes if

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Speaker 2: you want to hear the full thing. But I think

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Speaker 2: the point that she makes is we've all got personality

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Speaker 2: types or behaviors which can be really useful and have

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Speaker 2: been really useful, but when we're suffering and they get spiked,

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Speaker 2: they become detrimental. So for me, it's over controlling. For

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Speaker 2: you Woods its avoidance. Those that they're things that we

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Speaker 2: used to cope and then when we're suffering they become

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Speaker 2: detrimental to us and the people around us. So this

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Speaker 2: is part two of our chat with doctor Emily. Again,

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Speaker 2: this is a full thirty minute podcast that I've done

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Speaker 2: with her. You can get it on Will and Woody

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Speaker 2: podcast wherever you get your podcasts. And this part is

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Speaker 2: about the people that have to live with and love

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Speaker 2: and work with people who can become over controlling when

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Speaker 2: they're suffering. And this is some of the best practical

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Speaker 2: advice I think I've ever heard in any forum on this.

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Speaker 2: So if you do know someone or you love someone

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Speaker 2: who can be like that, preckuious, because it's about to

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Speaker 2: get good.

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Speaker 1: It's just kind of being clear that if there are

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Speaker 1: people out there that are experiencing control within a relationship

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Speaker 1: and that it's becoming to a point of it feeling

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Speaker 1: abusive or really coercive, then that's a different discussion. So

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Speaker 1: I just want to kind of be clear around that.

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Speaker 1: But in terms of what we're talking about now, one

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Speaker 1: of the first things is flowing things down for both

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Speaker 1: people but for the recipient, is that we kind of

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Speaker 1: almost need to be able to pause and take a

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Speaker 1: breath and to really kind of get a sense of Okay,

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Speaker 1: so what am I noticing right now? For me, So

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Speaker 1: even before thinking about strategies to interact with the other person,

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Speaker 1: what is happening for me in this moment, how is

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Speaker 1: that feeling?

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Speaker 3: Okay? Yep? Interesting?

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Speaker 1: So what do you have? There is a sense that

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Speaker 1: there's something really uncomfortable that's happening here, and so your

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Speaker 1: body is telling you that right.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, And if I'm being really honest, I will

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Speaker 3: then try to bottle that up as much as possible,

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Speaker 3: push that down, because again, I've got to be on

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Speaker 3: air in forty five minutes and I can't be dealing

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Speaker 3: with that spidy sense. So yes, should I be? Should

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Speaker 3: I be handling that differently?

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Speaker 1: And re look, I don't want to be too interactive,

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Speaker 1: but even just for a second, you know, being able

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Speaker 1: to pause and say, aha, this is interesting. I'm noticing

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Speaker 1: here is discomfort. So at least we've kind of labeled

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Speaker 1: and named it. And so it's like, you know, with

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Speaker 1: the knowledge that you have to continue to work, you

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Speaker 1: know in a really short period of time with that

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Speaker 1: same person, that we can at least kind of really

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Speaker 1: acknowledge it for a moment and almost like you park,

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Speaker 1: you can park it. Okay, So here is this And

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Speaker 1: in some respects I think it feels important to recognize,

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Speaker 1: you know, what your boundaries are and what self care

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Speaker 1: you take so even kind of keeping in mind things like,

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Speaker 1: you know, if it's in a working context, the permission

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Speaker 1: and validity of asking for a break, so that you know,

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Speaker 1: really reflecting that I'm hearing what you're saying and it

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Speaker 1: sounds like this is really important, let me take a

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Speaker 1: break and get back to you on this, or even

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Speaker 1: just kind of like basically what we're doing there is

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Speaker 1: asking for time so that both myself and the other

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Speaker 1: person might have some space to kind of move back

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Speaker 1: up to kind of a regulated space. There's one other

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Speaker 1: thing to keep in mind in terms of how to

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Speaker 1: speak to someone when they're maybe in anger or when

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Speaker 1: they're more defenses. And it's just like a saying. It's

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Speaker 1: by a particular therapist called Sue Johnson, who's actually one

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Speaker 1: of the proponents of one of the founders of a

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Speaker 1: particular couple therapy approach, and the phrase is go low

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Speaker 1: and slow. So with your tine of voice, speak low

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Speaker 1: and speak slowly. So if you think about even for

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Speaker 1: anyone that's been in therapy, you might notice that the

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Speaker 1: most powerful moments are when you and your therapist are

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Speaker 1: slowing down.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so true, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So our nervous systems start to engage more. We've got more.

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Speaker 1: There's a spaciousness we kind of really allow the other

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Speaker 1: person then to come to their own conclusions or really

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Speaker 1: kind of get a sense of what it is that they're.

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Speaker 2: Feeling so good, so great chat. And that's just a

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Speaker 2: sliver of the whole thing there, which is truly some

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Speaker 2: of the best thoughts, some of the most poignant thoughts,

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Speaker 2: well thought out thoughts. I think even for you and

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Speaker 2: I would so have sort of lived in that dynamic

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Speaker 2: for a long time.

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Speaker 3: I could be very over.

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Speaker 2: Controlling and very difficult to be around. I learned a

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Speaker 2: lot there from Doc Dremily Mausgroven, and I think if

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Speaker 2: anyone listening right now finds that they can be over

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Speaker 2: controlling and they hate when they're like that, go and

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Speaker 2: listen to that Will and Wit wherever you get. Your

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Speaker 2: podcasts should be up in a couple of minutes, I

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Speaker 2: would say, unless it's up now, or if you're on

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Speaker 2: the outside, you work with somebody, or you live with someone,

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Speaker 2: or you love someone who can be over controlling and

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Speaker 2: that's the way they deal with their suffering. As I said,

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Speaker 2: just the tip of the Iceberg bear and some brilliant

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Speaker 2: tips in understanding how to deal with that.

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Speaker 3: And if the conversation, like a face to face conversation,

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Speaker 3: is a bit hard, suggest to a person to listen

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Speaker 3: to that podcast, because then if you both listen to

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Speaker 3: it separately, you'll both get both sides. Yeah, that's really

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Speaker 3: good to move forward. And then what's happened with us

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Speaker 3: is as soon as you spoke about how you feel

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Speaker 3: with it, it's opened so many doors of conversation. It's

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Speaker 3: just been great.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, it's been good. It's been good to

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Speaker 2: have therapy with a million people listening. I hope everyone

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Speaker 2: got something out of it. I mean, that's why I

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Speaker 2: do it, so I hopefully there are other people that

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Speaker 2: get something out.

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Speaker 3: Of free therapy.

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Speaker 2: They're how good your text write off one hundred respects.

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Speaker 2: I should mention if there was anything triggering in there

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Speaker 2: is particular that stuff she mentioned around domestic finds. The

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Speaker 2: chat we had then doesn't necessarily pertain to that and

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Speaker 2: not germly suggested that, So one hundred respects. The other

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Speaker 2: number is, of course Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen. If

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Speaker 2: that was triggering for anyone in any way, you can

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Speaker 2: always call Lifeline and speak to somebody there as I said,

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Speaker 2: that's on the podcast Bill and Boddy we'll be back

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Speaker 2: on the other side to shoot tooo chair kiss