1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:02,120 Speaker 1: I've learned that I don't have to be in the 2 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 1: office all the time, and I really thought that I did. 3 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: I thought that I had to be in the office, 4 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:13,039 Speaker 1: firstly to show everyone that I was there to support them, 5 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:16,799 Speaker 1: and also almost as a bit of a mascot. I 6 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 1: know that sounds stupid, but I felt like I have 7 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:22,799 Speaker 1: to show them. I mean, it's really old school. I 8 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 1: have to show everyone that I'm working too. 9 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 10 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 2: used by the world's most successful people to get so 11 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 2: much out of their day. I'm your host, doctor Amtt 12 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:41,200 Speaker 2: the Imbat. I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral 13 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 2: science consultancy Inventium, and I'm obsessed with finding ways to 14 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 2: optimize my work day now. Today's guest is someone that 15 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 2: I had on right at the beginning of How I 16 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 2: Work nearly two years ago, and something I'm doing at 17 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 2: the moment is I'm reaching back out to some of 18 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 2: my favorite guests just to see how they've been going 19 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 2: during lockdown. And I guess lockdown starting to ease now 20 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 2: within Australia where I am based, and I'm just kind 21 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:13,479 Speaker 2: of keen to know, like, what are the things that 22 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 2: they have changed about how they work and how did 23 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 2: they cope and what are your rituals and strategies that 24 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 2: they're kind of embracing now after being in lockdown for 25 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:28,680 Speaker 2: about three months. So with all that in mind, my 26 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 2: guest today is Mia Friedman. Mia is the co founder 27 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 2: and chief creative officer of the Mama Mea women's media 28 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 2: company in Australia. Mama Mea has an audience of more 29 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 2: than five million women each month and also includes the 30 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 2: largest women's podcast network in the world with over sixty 31 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 2: seven million listens and twenty eight different shows. And as 32 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 2: many Australian listeners would know, Mia was the youngest editor 33 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 2: of Australian Cosmo, four years old back in the mid nineties, 34 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 2: and because I was one of many loyal Cosmo readers 35 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 2: as a teenager, I felt like I kind of grew 36 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 2: up with Mia. I've also lapped up all of her 37 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 2: books and I just love how she speaks so honestly 38 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,359 Speaker 2: and in such a raw way about her life. So 39 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 2: in this chat with Mia, we talk about how she's 40 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,919 Speaker 2: gone in lockdown, some of the new rituals that she's developed, 41 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 2: you know, we talk about just the challenge of running 42 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 2: a media company during COVID, which is really interesting, and 43 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 2: we talk about a really cool strategy that she used 44 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 2: just to kind of get a quick read about all 45 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 2: her stuff, how all her staff members were going and 46 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 2: coping during lockdown. So lean's head to Mia to find 47 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 2: out about how she works. Mia, Welcome to the show 48 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 2: for a second time. 49 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: It's exciting to be back. 50 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:58,079 Speaker 2: So I am keen to check in because I've I've 51 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 2: been touching face with a few guests that I've absolutely 52 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 2: loved speaking to over the last couple of years. You're 53 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 2: one of you been one of my favorites, and I 54 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 2: want to know, like, how are things going in this 55 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 2: kind of funny period where we're starting to come out 56 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 2: of ISO and I I think I heard on one 57 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 2: of your various podcasts that you do, I think it 58 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 2: was on Mama Mia out Loud, that you're actually starting 59 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 2: to work from the office again. So I kind of 60 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 2: want to start there in terms of what's what's your 61 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 2: plan in terms of transitioning back to the office perhaps 62 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 2: for you personally, and then let's talk about Mom and 63 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 2: MEA as a company after that. 64 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: Sure, Well, I think it's pretty interesting that you first 65 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: reached out to me about coming back on the show 66 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,839 Speaker 1: to talk about this. I don't know, maybe five weeks ago, yeah, yes, 67 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: quite soon after everyone had gone into lockdown, and I 68 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: didn't get back to you for weeks because things were 69 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: so frantic, And I think that it's now just that 70 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: we're all starting to come up for air, ironically or 71 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: maybe because everyone's sort of starting to venture back in 72 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: the world, and we had our first attempt at a 73 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: recording because in the middle of all of this, we 74 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: moved offices. And a big part of the reason for 75 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: that is because our podcast studios, our podc you know, 76 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 1: we've basically grown to this podcast network. I think we 77 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: just hit sixty eight or sixty nine million downloads and 78 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:27,040 Speaker 1: it's all been done from this room smaller than a 79 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: toilet that we made ourselves with stuff that we're you know, 80 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: soundproofing that we got from Bunnings and blue tacked onto 81 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: the walls and it wasn't properly soundproof and it you know, 82 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: so part of the reason we had to move offices 83 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 1: because we had we needed more space, and so ironically 84 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 1: we did that in the middle of lockdown. We moved 85 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 1: to these new offices and now no one wants to 86 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:54,559 Speaker 1: go into the office because everyone is perfectly comfortable working 87 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: from home, including me. So last Wednesday was my first attempt. 88 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:00,919 Speaker 1: I thought, come on, and I've got to break the seal. 89 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: I've got to go in there. And I went in 90 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 1: and we recorded Mamameir out Loud, which is our flagship 91 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: show and involves three of us, and it was the 92 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: first time we'd all been in the same room for 93 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: six or seven weeks. And we do three of those 94 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: shows a week, three episodes of Mummere out Loud a 95 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: week Monday, Wednesday and Friday. So we'd recorded, you know, 96 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 1: dozens of shows. And someone was listening back and said, 97 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: we sounded so giddy to be in the same room. 98 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 1: And I was ownly in the office for five hours. 99 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: But I got home and I was exhausted. I was 100 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: in bed by eight point thirty. 101 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 2: Wow. Wow, what do you think that was about? For you? 102 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: And I haven't been back. I think it was about 103 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: all the In reality, it's about overstimulation, Like our lives 104 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 1: have become so small in the last couple of months, 105 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: where and we've had to make so few decisions and 106 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: interact with so few people that even though I only 107 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: had to interact with maybe ten people, and but I 108 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 1: was in a different environment and I kept saying to everyone, 109 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: you look so small, You look so small, because I'm 110 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: used to seeing everyone's face is quite large on a screen. Yes, 111 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: and it was just a surreal experience, and I think 112 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,720 Speaker 1: it was just being out in the world is actually 113 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: really tiring. 114 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 2: It is, it is. It's interesting. I want to come 115 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:24,919 Speaker 2: back to decision making. But I guess from that experience, 116 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 2: what's your plan personally in terms of how you think 117 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:32,039 Speaker 2: in the foreseeable future you're going to split your time 118 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 2: between working from home and working in the office. 119 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: We have got a really open mind, my husband who 120 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 1: is mum May's CEO and my co founder, and we've 121 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: got a very open view that we don't see any 122 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: you know, hard and fast lines or dates or rules 123 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 1: that we're going to sort of put onto people around 124 00:06:58,040 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: when they come back and how they come back. I 125 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: can see what I think will happen, which is that 126 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,799 Speaker 1: there will be certain days of the week when everyone 127 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: has to be there so that you get some kind 128 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 1: of cross you know, this is when you're socially when 129 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: social distancing is relaxed and you're actually allowed to fill 130 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 1: spaces because at the moment we can't. We couldn't have 131 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: everyone back. We've got like seventy or seventy five people 132 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 1: in our Sydney office, and I think that there'll be 133 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: a couple of days when everyone comes in and then 134 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: the rest of the days of the week it'll be 135 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: between you and your department manager as to where you 136 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: work from. And for us, productivity has never been higher 137 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: across our company, which was a surprise to everyone. I think, 138 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: so why would we force people to come and sit 139 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: at a desk with a long commute just for the 140 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,239 Speaker 1: sake of being able to see them visually. 141 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 2: That's really interesting. I remember at Inventium we have and 142 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 2: I mean, look, we're still all working from home, but 143 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 2: we've got a similar policy where Fridays are office day 144 00:07:57,600 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 2: and we all get to see each other and have 145 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 2: those natural conversations that happen when you're face to face 146 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 2: and you can kind of walk around the office. But 147 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 2: otherwise I imagine we'll still work from home the majority of 148 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 2: the time. I want to know for you what rituals, 149 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 2: because I mean, you would have spent I'm just trying 150 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 2: to think in Sydney, maybe eight weeks in lockdown. 151 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I lost track. I don't know, I sort of 152 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 1: lost track, but I think it was around eight. We 153 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: went early. We went about a week or two weeks 154 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: before everyone else, and our kids went a week or 155 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: two before that. Even so we were in lockdown as 156 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: a company longer, or working from home as a company 157 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: longer than a lot of other organizations. 158 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. So look, I mean two months is a fair 159 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 2: amount of time to develop new habits and new rituals. 160 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,719 Speaker 2: And I'm curious for you, what are some rituals that 161 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 2: you either consciously or unconsciously found that you started to 162 00:08:57,360 --> 00:08:59,439 Speaker 2: develop over the last couple of months. 163 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: Wearing pants was really important, and wearing shoes and that 164 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: kind of sounds silly, but like I decided very early 165 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: on that because I like to get dressed up for work, 166 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: not in high heels, but like in sequence or like 167 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,559 Speaker 1: you know, just I like wearing fun clothes to work. 168 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: It's part of my creativity and I just enjoy it. 169 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 1: But when I'm at home, I'm like really at home, 170 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:28,839 Speaker 1: and I am in you know, old mismatched tracksuit pants 171 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: or pajama pants every night from the minute I walk in, 172 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 1: you know, from work, and all weekend and so I 173 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: knew that I had to obviously not wear sequence that 174 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 1: was a bit much for me, or anything like jackets. 175 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: But I knew that I couldn't wear tracksuit pants. Psychologically, 176 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,719 Speaker 1: I knew that I had to wear like jeans and 177 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 1: shoes like for you know, I had to wear something 178 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 1: that was a bit more structured. And that said to 179 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: my that that said to my brain, you're in work mode. 180 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: It's not a weekend. And I also found that putting 181 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 1: on a little bit of makeup every morning was really 182 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: important for me as well. I mean, they sound like 183 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 1: such superficial things like who cares what you look like? 184 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: But it wasn't about how I looked like. It wasn't 185 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 1: about what I look like on zoom. It was more 186 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: just for me. Because there were no boundaries between work 187 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 1: and home and Monday and Tuesday and the weekend, I 188 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: had to put them with external markers. So for me, 189 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: it meant setting up a workspace because before that, when 190 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: I used to work at home, I just kind of 191 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:33,679 Speaker 1: wander around the house with my laptop, and it meant 192 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 1: doing certain things like as if I was getting ready 193 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:36,680 Speaker 1: for work. 194 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 2: I think that's really interesting just to psychologically what that 195 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 2: does like triggers. You know, what other things did you 196 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 2: have in place, particularly to delineate the workday from the 197 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 2: non work day, and I guess to stop things feeling 198 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:52,959 Speaker 2: like groundhog Day as well, like what other things did 199 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 2: you do? Well? 200 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:58,199 Speaker 1: It's interesting because it's very blurry in many ways for us, 201 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: like our house became very much Mumma Me or HQ because, 202 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: as I said, my husband is my co founder and 203 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: our son works in the business as well. He used 204 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,719 Speaker 1: to be a podcast producer. He now works as a 205 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: business development manager in our Social Squad influencer agency. And 206 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: then his girlfriend is a co host on Muma Mer 207 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: out Loud with Me and also hosts a true crime 208 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 1: podcast and is the assistant head of content at Muma Maya. 209 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: So she locked down with us as well. So we 210 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 1: had to build a podcast studio in a cupboard here 211 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:40,439 Speaker 1: and Luca had to do two jobs, which was obviously 212 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: his Social Squad sales job, but also he had to 213 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: go back to producing podcasts. And there have been weeks 214 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 1: because we straightaway increased our level of production on some 215 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: of our shows like Muma, Mer Out Loud and No Filter. 216 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: Most weeks here was producing and we were recording up 217 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 1: to twelve podcasts a week wow out of my house. 218 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: So on that first weekend, I remember we had to 219 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: go into the office as it was being packed down 220 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: to move and bring home podcasting equipment and some desks, 221 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: and a lot of our team took home monitors and 222 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: mini desks or stand up desks or office chairs, just 223 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: because we knew that we were going to be home. 224 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: We thought it could be six months. We didn't know, 225 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 1: but we knew it was going to be a big 226 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: chunk of time. And I remember one of my most 227 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 1: vivid memories of lockdown, which I found just so dissturbing 228 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: or distressing in a way, was we work in a 229 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 1: pretty built up area in Surrey Hills, that's where our 230 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 1: old office was, and a lot of media companies and 231 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: creative agencies are around there, and everybody was doing the 232 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: same thing. Everybody was packing their cars full of monitors 233 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: and desk chairs, and I just remember looking across the 234 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 1: road at our local cafe owner, who you know, he 235 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: serves us all our cop vis in our lunches every day, 236 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: and he was just watching everybody pack things away, and 237 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: we were like saying, we're so sorry, we feel like 238 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 1: we're leaving you, and he was just like, no, no, 239 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 1: I understand, but obviously watching all his business just drive 240 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: away and the streets were empty, and it felt really apocalyptic. 241 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: It really did, and it wasn't you know. In those 242 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 1: first couple of weeks. My other big memories just of 243 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 1: just this massive adrenaline when we didn't know if we 244 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: were going to be able to keep everybody on. We 245 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 1: didn't know, we didn't know what was going to happen, 246 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: and everyone sort of went into overdrive and we had 247 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: all these ideas and we were going to do Facebook 248 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 1: lives every night out of the Mama Maya out Loud 249 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 1: Facebook group, and we were going to do these live 250 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: masterclasses and everyone just sprinted in that first week and 251 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 1: then we were like, oh my god, we can't keep 252 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:56,559 Speaker 1: we can't possibly keep that up. 253 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 2: I do want to ask, actually, like what has been 254 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 2: the hardest thing about running a media company during this time, 255 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 2: because it sounds like the content output is huge, yet 256 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 2: you know, suddenly it's a lot harder to get advertising spent, So, like, 257 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 2: what's that been like for the last couple of months. 258 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 1: It's been different. It's been challenging in different ways for 259 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: different parts of our business like. For our editorial team, 260 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: the first few weeks were really tough on them because 261 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: they had to be just immersed in the news and 262 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: the news was terrible, and that takes a really big 263 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 1: mental toll. I mean a lot of people were saying 264 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: how they'd you know, made these rules for themselves that 265 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: they only consumed you know, fifteen minutes of news in 266 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: the morning and then fifteen minutes at night, because it 267 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: was just giving them to an accent much anxiety. But 268 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: for journalists who were covering this and creating content, that 269 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: wasn't an option, Like you were in it all day, 270 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: every day, and so that was stressful. Our podcasting team 271 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: had to learn. We had to set up sort of 272 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 1: you know, maybe half a dozen or more you know, 273 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 1: makeshift podcast studios literally in cupboards and under blanket forts 274 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: all around Sydney, and our podcast producers were in different 275 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: places to our hosts, and we had to I mean, 276 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: the technology of that we made I think in that 277 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: first week twenty eight different shows because we've got two 278 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: daily shows, so that's ten episodes alone just of two shows, 279 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: and we've got you know, like almost thirty shows going 280 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 1: at any one time. So that was an enormous technical 281 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 1: challenge for them, and then of course our sales team 282 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: had to work out how do you sell to clients 283 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: when you can't have face to face meetings, you can't 284 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: take anyone out to lunch or have coffee, and also 285 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: when budgets were being cut, so that was a challenge 286 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: for them. And then of course managers we had to 287 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: make sure everybody was okay, that everybody was because we 288 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: had people in very different situations. Some people were locking 289 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: down with little kids, which was really hard, some people 290 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: were locking down on their own, which was a different 291 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: kind of hard. We had some people who were taking 292 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: care of sick relatives or who had health concerns and 293 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: mental health concerns. So suddenly you found that every Zoom 294 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: meeting that you had had to start with let's just 295 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: go around and check in how is everyone doing? And 296 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 1: so at first we were asking people to sort of 297 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: give a rating out of ten because we didn't want 298 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: anyone to slip through the cracks. So, yeah, there were 299 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: enormous different types of challenges for our sales team. Obviously 300 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: the biggest one was revenue. How are we going to 301 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: keep paying everyone's salaries And we were in a fortunate 302 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: position in our relationships with our clients. Our reputation and 303 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: the work that we'd been doing over the last few 304 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 1: years really came to bear fruit in that time, and 305 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: we had some really big campaigns land and we also pivoted. 306 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: We were able to meet the demands of clients who 307 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: wanted to do things that were COVID specific. We could, 308 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,439 Speaker 1: you know, we launched an entire working with cub crtonon 309 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:14,159 Speaker 1: nighted breweries. We launched an entirely new was called the 310 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: Virtual Knockoff and a Facebook live show that was kind 311 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:21,159 Speaker 1: of like Knockoff Drinks. We did that out of my 312 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,399 Speaker 1: kitchen with Jesse and I hosting it, you know, with 313 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 1: all this technology that we were able to put together, 314 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: and we got that together in about five days and 315 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: that's been an eight week show that we've done. So 316 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:35,920 Speaker 1: our agility really worked in our favor. Because we were 317 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: not one of the behemoth, big media companies that had 318 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,200 Speaker 1: a lot of layers. We were able to be really 319 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 1: agile and adapt to our clients. And we were also 320 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 1: able to follow the mood of women and pivot. When 321 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: women were diving into news, that's what we did. And 322 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: then when they said, hey, we want other information, we 323 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: want more lifestyle information around COVID after the facts had 324 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 1: been gathered, and then when they wanted diversion and entertainment, 325 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:05,440 Speaker 1: we were able to provide all those different things. So 326 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: we were in a lucky position. 327 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 2: I want to delve into a couple of things you 328 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 2: said there. So firstly in terms of keeping up with 329 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:13,719 Speaker 2: the news, so I can imagine that would have been 330 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 2: exhausting for your editorial team and the journalist. I want 331 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 2: to know for you, because I mean your role requires 332 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 2: you to be up to date with the news, particularly 333 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:25,199 Speaker 2: for the podcast that you host. What was your approach? 334 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 2: Did you have rules around news consumption and what does 335 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 2: that look like now for you as well? 336 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,639 Speaker 1: Good question. So at first, like everyone, I just was 337 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: it was almost like it reminded me a bit of 338 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 1: September eleven, and that the sort of the forty eight 339 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:42,679 Speaker 1: hours of seventy two hours, except it stretched for so 340 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: much longer when you were just watching the news because 341 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: you were scared if you looked away, something else terrible 342 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: would happen. And there was just there was a couple 343 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: of weeks there where every time you refreshed a news 344 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:59,679 Speaker 1: site or turned on ABC News, twenty four whatever, there 345 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: would be another massive shock like schools are closing, or 346 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: supermarkets have run out of this, or these restrictions or 347 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: this has happened in that country, or borders were closed, 348 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 1: and it just felt irresponsible. Like I know that some 349 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: people were saying, look, it's okay to not look at 350 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: the news and don't beat yourself up, and they got 351 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 1: enormous pushback because people were quite rightly saying, you know what, 352 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,199 Speaker 1: everyone needs to stay across this at the moment so 353 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: we know what to do. Because things were changing by 354 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,399 Speaker 1: the hour. You know, different recommendations about where to get tested, 355 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 1: about what areas were the hotspots, about whether you could 356 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: go to the beach or not go to the beach, 357 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: what was happening in workplaces. All of that was changing 358 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,919 Speaker 1: so fast that it was almost negligent to not be 359 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: writing the news for at least a couple of weeks there. 360 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 1: But I think everybody I've seen this happen a number 361 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 1: of times. Everybody reaches that tipping point at the same time, 362 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 1: and I, like so many, had to say, I'm going 363 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,199 Speaker 1: to limit myself and I would have the ritual of 364 00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 1: I would be ABC News Breakfast while I was on 365 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 1: the treadmill, and I would watch Gladysbury Jaclian's press conference 366 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:05,400 Speaker 1: at eight, which I still do religiously, and I'll be 367 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: quietly devastated when i don't have Gladys there in the 368 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: morning for me at eight o'clock, because I've become very 369 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:16,360 Speaker 1: attached to her and very attached to Lisa Miller and 370 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: Michael Rowland on ABC News Breakfast. But then when that 371 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 1: was done by about eight thirty, I would then stop 372 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: and I would, you know, look at news perhaps again 373 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: during the day and at night. But because I'm not 374 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: part of the editorial team anymore, the editor and all 375 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 1: of the journalists, they did not have that luxury. But 376 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: once it got to the point where things were not 377 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: changing by the hour, I started to quarantine myself. 378 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 2: And what does that look like for you now in 379 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,400 Speaker 2: terms of your news consumption? 380 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,919 Speaker 1: Now I'm back now, not like I was when it 381 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, what's happened in the ten 382 00:20:56,000 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: minutes since I last checked. It's not like that any 383 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: But now it's pretty much as it was before. I mean, 384 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:08,199 Speaker 1: I'm a pretty voracious consumer of news. I found that. So, 385 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: for example, at first, the other thing that changed for 386 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 1: me is that I was suddenly listening to a lot 387 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,439 Speaker 1: less podcasts than I was used to it because I 388 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: wasn't commuting like so many people. I wasn't commuting anymore. 389 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 1: I wasn't leaving my house. So a lot of the 390 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 1: times when I used to listen to podcasts when i'd 391 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 1: go out to do the shopping, or when i'd be 392 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: on the way to work, or when i'd be drup 393 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:30,199 Speaker 1: taking the kids to sport, that time was lost for me. 394 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:32,640 Speaker 1: So I had to be very judicious about what podcasts 395 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:36,439 Speaker 1: I consumed, so I would I limited it to And 396 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 1: then I found also some of the ones that I 397 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:40,360 Speaker 1: usually loved, like The Daily, I just found them too 398 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:42,120 Speaker 1: for long because what was going on in New York, 399 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: for example, was so much worse than what was going 400 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 1: on here, and I found that that was just causing 401 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 1: me to be very anxious. So I listened to The 402 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 1: Quickie every morning because that gave me the news headlines 403 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,199 Speaker 1: and also a deep dive in a way that was 404 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 1: sort of not alarmist. What else did I do? You know, 405 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: now I'm kind of back to normal, and I'm still 406 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: you know, I'm looking for more diversion. That was the 407 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:09,239 Speaker 1: other thing that I really noticed a few weeks in 408 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: when I was deliberately looking for things that weren't COVID related. 409 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: And of course that only comes when you feel confident 410 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: and comfortable enough to go out of fight or flight. 411 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:22,919 Speaker 1: And I felt that was the first sign, and we 412 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: saw this across the site, where collectively people were no 413 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: longer in alert and alarmed mode and were starting to 414 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: be able to look for diversion a little bit more. 415 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 2: The other thing that you said that that kind of 416 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 2: found quite interesting is when you're saying how when you 417 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 2: started your meeting towards the beginning of lockdown, you'd start 418 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 2: them with everyone giving a rating out of ten as 419 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 2: to how they're going. And I don't think I've heard 420 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 2: anyone else say that, so I wanted to dig into that. 421 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 2: I think that the closest thing I can think about 422 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,679 Speaker 2: that I've heard was I think I read an article 423 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 2: about how Rene Brown was kicking off all her meetings 424 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 2: with everyone doing just a two words, and particularly for 425 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 2: big meetings, you know, just doing that on zoom, which 426 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 2: I have adopted. It I find really useful. But tell 427 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:08,919 Speaker 2: me more about this rating out of ten check in. 428 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 1: So we did that as a just We did that 429 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,639 Speaker 1: first in the senior leadership team, just as a way 430 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: to cut to the chase, because you know, as Brene 431 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 1: Brown quite rightly pointed out, or Esther Perel said this, 432 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 1: if you ask someone how they are, or if you 433 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,439 Speaker 1: ask someone how they were during those first few weeks, 434 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:31,640 Speaker 1: they'd usually say, oh, you know, can't complain, we're all safe. 435 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: You know, I've still got my job, and that often 436 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 1: disguises what's going on. And so we did this at first, 437 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: and it doesn't work in big groups because people can 438 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: be feel a bit put on the spot. But because 439 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: everyone was dealing with so many different things, the out 440 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 1: of ten personal and the out of ten work just 441 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 1: gave us away And we wouldn't make anyone really elaborate, 442 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,479 Speaker 1: but it just gave us a way to say, Okay, 443 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 1: this person needs some more attend and this person needs 444 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,640 Speaker 1: some more support. So, for example, there were a lot 445 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 1: of things that we didn't all know about our colleagues 446 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,640 Speaker 1: until this happened, and suddenly we were literally looking into 447 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: people in their homes and oh, so you know, the 448 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,880 Speaker 1: first thing that people were asking in those first weeks 449 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: on Zoom were like, so, who were you locking down with? 450 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 1: And that's how you found. Some people were married, some 451 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 1: people were in same sex relationships. Some people were living 452 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 1: with their in laws, some people were separated from their partners. 453 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:36,360 Speaker 1: Some people had gone home to live with their families, 454 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,400 Speaker 1: you know, where they hadn't lived at home for a decade. 455 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: And they were all very unique. 456 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 2: You know. 457 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,640 Speaker 1: Some people had kids with additional needs that they had 458 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: to look after, and that just gave us a sense 459 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: as managers, Okay, who do we have to be on 460 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,920 Speaker 1: the lookout for, because we don't want anyone, you know, 461 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:56,440 Speaker 1: we have a strong duty of care and we don't 462 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,879 Speaker 1: want anyone to slip through the cracks. We want to 463 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 1: make sure that no one just goes. The other thing 464 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: is that sometimes people would just go very quiet, and 465 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 1: that's when someone usually in the team, would go, need 466 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 1: to check on so and so. They've just gone pretty 467 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: quiet the last few days, you know, because we've got 468 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 1: ninety five percent of our team of female. So there's 469 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 1: a lot of good communication that goes on, a lot 470 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: of talking at the best of times. But this even 471 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: ratcheted up for us a notch to that extra level. 472 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's cool. That's such a cool strategy, and I 473 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 2: want to know afe you personally during lockdown? What like, 474 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 2: what strategies did you use for staying socially connected? And 475 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 2: I mean obviously like you've you know, you've got a 476 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 2: fairly full household in terms of what you describe. But 477 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, from listening to No Filter now 478 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 2: for many years, I feel like you've got the world's 479 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 2: biggest friendship network. And I'm curious, like, what did that 480 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 2: look like staying socially connected during lockdown? 481 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: Wasn't it funny the way that everyone sort of again, 482 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: in those first few weeks, some people sort of tried 483 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 1: to make this safety net, like knit this safety net 484 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: of constant communication, as if that would make everything okay. 485 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: And I think in the first week or so, there 486 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: was just a lot of checking in. I was particularly 487 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,120 Speaker 1: checking in with my girlfriends who live overseas. Got one 488 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 1: in Washington, I've got one in New York, both of 489 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 1: them who were feeling, you know, a million miles away 490 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: because they're both Australian, and they were doing it really 491 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: really tough because things were just so grim over there 492 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 1: and still are. And then I found something else funny, 493 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: which is that the group that really revved up on 494 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 1: my WhatsApp was my school friends. I've got a group 495 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 1: of like three or four of us, four of us 496 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 1: who are close from school, so the familiarity of people 497 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 1: you've known a really long time. I've heard a lot 498 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 1: of people saying that ex partners reached out to them 499 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,640 Speaker 1: or they felt the need to reach out to ex partners. 500 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 1: So there was that a lot of people were just 501 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: super busy. Because a lot of my friends are journalists, 502 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: they were all working still, so I you know, there've 503 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: been a few people I've known who've who've sadly lost 504 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:06,680 Speaker 1: their jobs, but most of my friends were working like crazy, 505 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: so and a lot of them weren't even locking down 506 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: at home because journalists are considered, as you know, essential 507 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: services providers in the media, so they were going, albeit 508 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: in different ways. They were still working outside their home 509 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,399 Speaker 1: a lot of them, so they didn't have time for 510 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,399 Speaker 1: sort of lots of zoom calls. But I had some 511 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 1: weird things, like I had a former colleague that passed 512 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 1: away during lockdown, and that what we did is a 513 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,199 Speaker 1: few of us that had worked together at that time 514 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,439 Speaker 1: at Cleo Magazine, we all reached out and had like 515 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,399 Speaker 1: a zoom drink one night just because we felt the 516 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: need to connect with each other, and we sort of 517 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 1: told stories about her and about that time, and so 518 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: I had a few zoom drinks. But those zoom drinks 519 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 1: in big groups are really hard because you can only 520 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,360 Speaker 1: talk one at a time, which made it you know, 521 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: I had a birth day celebration, I had this funeral. 522 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,159 Speaker 1: I had a Jewish Passover celebration, so I had a 523 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,360 Speaker 1: big zoom thing with like sixty people of my extended family. 524 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 1: So I had all of these and then also going 525 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 1: on in the background was I've got two other children, 526 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:19,640 Speaker 1: my daughter's fourteen and my son's eleven, so they had, 527 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 1: you know, luckily they could pretty much look after themselves, 528 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,199 Speaker 1: but with my son in primary school, there was a 529 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,159 Speaker 1: lot that I had to do to sort of supervise 530 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:31,640 Speaker 1: bassoon lessons and try to log him onto various new 531 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 1: platforms that they were using. So you know, it's everyone's 532 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: got their stories. And I have to say that I 533 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 1: discovered I was very suited to captivity, and I really 534 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: enjoyed the lockdown process because for me, there were a 535 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: lot less options and there were a lot less decisions 536 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 1: to be made in terms of social activities. 537 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting isn't it. Like I've also loved 538 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 2: Lockdown for those reasons as well, and curious like now, 539 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 2: and I know that we've only got a couple of 540 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 2: minutes before I need to release you back into the world, 541 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 2: but I want to know, like, what changes do you 542 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 2: think you're going to make to how you work as 543 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 2: a result of you know, what you've experienced and what 544 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 2: you've learnt about yourself over the last couple of months. 545 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 1: I've learned that I don't have to be in the 546 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 1: office all the time, and I really thought that I did. 547 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: I thought that I had to be in the office, 548 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 1: firstly to show everyone that I was there to support them, 549 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 1: and also almost as a bit of a mascot. I 550 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 1: know that sounds stupid, but I felt like I have 551 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 1: to show them. I mean, it's really old school. I 552 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: have to show everyone that I'm working too. And I 553 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 1: think that, you know, Jace was saying the other day, 554 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: you know, everyone in the business has earned our trust 555 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: in terms of working from home. And it's not that 556 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 1: we didn't trust in individuals, but I think that a 557 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 1: lot of managers and business owners he didn't trust the 558 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: idea of working from home. It wasn't that they didn't 559 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,959 Speaker 1: trust for people. It was the concept, how can it 560 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 1: possibly work? How can it possibly be as good as 561 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: being in person? And I was very much I thought 562 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 1: that too, even though There've been times when I've worked, 563 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 1: you know, a day or so at home, But I've 564 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: discovered that I'm a lot more productive at home. But 565 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: I've learned that what's missed, firstly, onboarding anyone new is 566 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: really hard, like how do you create a culture when 567 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 1: everybody's working from home? So we've obviously gone into lockdown 568 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 1: with a team that's not everyone's been with us for 569 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: a long time. But we've got a very ingrained culture 570 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: around our core values and around our core purpose of 571 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: making the world a better place for women and girls, 572 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: and everyone who works at Mum and MEA understands that. 573 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: And yet if someone new came into the business, how 574 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: would that work? And the other thing that I've noticed 575 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: is that I only probably deal with maybe ten people 576 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,719 Speaker 1: really closely interacting day to day. But there are so 577 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 1: many other people in the company that I can learn 578 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 1: from and that I like to interact with. And the 579 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 1: kismet of the conversation you have in the kitchen or 580 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 1: walking past someone's desk obviously that isn't there from working 581 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: from home. But on the other side, there's a huge 582 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 1: amount of small talk that as an introvert I found 583 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: I find enormously draining. And I think that the introverts 584 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 1: have really been loving, loving themselves sick during lockdown, and 585 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: I think people will be really reluctant to give that up, 586 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: which I can really understand. 587 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 2: I will be too, Yeah, definitely, And look, I could 588 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 2: totally understand that in terms of feeling like a mascot 589 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 2: of the business that you need to physically be there 590 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 2: every day. I definitely felt that it inventing him a 591 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 2: couple of years ago before I did change my working 592 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 2: sort of style and work a lot more from home. 593 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 2: But I think that's such a great realization. 594 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 1: How did you do that? 595 00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 2: I just tested it. I just thought I'm just going 596 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 2: to see how it goes and gradually work more and 597 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 2: more from home. And I mean, I used to travel 598 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 2: so much for work. It's been nice not to travel 599 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 2: for a couple of months. But the world didn't fall apart, 600 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 2: the business didn't collapse. It's like, Okay, people still know 601 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 2: I'm around, but I don't have to be physically around. 602 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 1: And did it remind you of what you love doing. Like, 603 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: there's so much as you run a business and as 604 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 1: you get higher in management and stuff, that you get 605 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 1: further and further away from what it is that you 606 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 1: love doing. For me, it's been a reminder that what 607 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 1: I love doing is creating content, not being in meetings. 608 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: And I've found it really lovely to just have a 609 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: little bit more actual time and also mental headspace to 610 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 1: just create more content. 611 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 2: One hundred percent. Like I imagine you're probably familiar with 612 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 2: the Paul Graham essay around maker versus manager time and 613 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 2: roles and how you like. Ironically, the more you work, 614 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 2: the more you either formerly become a manager or spend 615 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 2: more time managing people and spend less time making. But 616 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 2: when you're a maker at hat like you are, that 617 00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 2: the irony is that the more experience and the more 618 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 2: you're Brison grows, the less time you actually spend on 619 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 2: the making. And so for me, the biggest change happened 620 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 2: when I put in place a CEO and then I 621 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 2: was able to go back to being a full time 622 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 2: maker and that was a game changer for me. 623 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: Yes, that's so true, And I think you know, I 624 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 1: think about that movie the intern with Aunt Hathaway and 625 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 1: Robert De Niro, and I went to see that at 626 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 1: the Movies a long time ago, and it's not a 627 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 1: terribly great movie. But what is interesting at the heart 628 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: of that movie that the sort of the struggle is 629 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 1: that she's the founder of this company and it's like 630 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 1: this online fashion business, I think retail e commerce, and 631 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:36,719 Speaker 1: the board want her to put in a CEO, and 632 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 1: she's resisting, and the whole way through it's like you're 633 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: meant to be rooting for her to stay as CEO, 634 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 1: and I just kept sitting in the audience. Don't do it, 635 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 1: because it's not always the best thing. I'd be a 636 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 1: terrible CEO of Mauma Man an absolute disaster. And in fact, 637 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 1: the less management of people and departments and projects I 638 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,479 Speaker 1: can do, the better it is for our company. The 639 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 1: more I can just be making, the better it is. 640 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 1: And I think that, yeah, it can be a great 641 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: reminder of that. 642 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 2: Ah, yes, I hear you. I hear you, And now 643 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 2: I'm aware of time. And look, my last question for you, 644 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,839 Speaker 2: Mia is if people want to consume more of you 645 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,399 Speaker 2: and more of what you're making, what is the best 646 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:24,400 Speaker 2: way for people to do that? 647 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 1: Oh, that's so lovely. Look, Instagram's my platform of choice 648 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 1: at the moment, and of course podcasts, so no Filter 649 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 1: is my well during lockdown, that's what I mean about adrenaline. 650 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: I decided that we needed to do three episodes a 651 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 1: week of No Filter and three episodes of Mom and 652 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,799 Speaker 1: Me Are Out Loud. So No Filter and MoMA and 653 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 1: Me are Out Loud, I do four episodes a week 654 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 1: of those two shows combined. And then I've also started 655 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 1: hosting the Lady Startup podcast as well, because our Lady 656 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 1: Startup platform is all about helping women launch and grow 657 00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:59,839 Speaker 1: their own businesses. So that's something that I've also been 658 00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 1: with really leaning into during lockdown because so many people 659 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 1: are either struggling in their businesses or so many businesses, 660 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 1: including Mom and mea are born in recessions and are 661 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 1: born of people losing their jobs or just deciding that 662 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 1: they need to pivot and do something different. So yeah, 663 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 1: they're the best places. And then you know, I also 664 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: do well. I used to do keynote speeches. Those are 665 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,360 Speaker 1: happening online now, which is interesting. So yeah, I have 666 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,239 Speaker 1: a website Meofriedman dot com as well. 667 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 2: Awesome fantastic well me it was so good to talk 668 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 2: to you again. Thank you so much for your time 669 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:35,840 Speaker 2: this afternoon. 670 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 1: Great to check in, and thanks for your patience with 671 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 1: me not getting back to me. 672 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 2: Oh good. That is for today's show. I hope you 673 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 2: enjoyed it, and certainly I love the I love me 674 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 2: as check in strategies, the ten out of ten score. 675 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 2: It's something that I'm trying with my team at the moment. 676 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 2: So if you enjoy today's episode and know someone who 677 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:03,799 Speaker 2: you think would like it or would benefit from it, 678 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 2: why not share it with them? That'd be awesome. And 679 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 2: thank you for everyone. There are several hundred of you 680 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 2: that have left reviews for How I Work, and look, 681 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:18,320 Speaker 2: if you're enjoying How I Work, I would hugely appreciate it. 682 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 2: If you could just take five or ten seconds out 683 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,719 Speaker 2: of your day to leave a star rating or write 684 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:27,759 Speaker 2: some kind words wherever you listen to your podcasts, that 685 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 2: would be absolutely awesome. So that's it for today's show 686 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 2: and I will see you next time.