WEBVTT - Israel's strike on Hamas in Qatar

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<v Speaker 1>Already and this this is the Daily.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the Dailios. Oh now it makes sense. Good

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<v Speaker 2>morning and welcome to the Daily Os. It's Thursday, the

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<v Speaker 2>eleventh of September. I'm Lucy Tassel, I'm Sam Kauzlowski. For

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<v Speaker 2>the first time, Israel has struck Qatar. Israeli PM Benjamin Ntnia,

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<v Speaker 2>who said the strike on the capital city Doha was

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<v Speaker 2>targeting Hamas leadership. Hamas has said none of its leaders

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<v Speaker 2>or ceasepy and negotiating team were killed, but six others were.

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<v Speaker 2>In today's episode, we'll explain the significance of the strike

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<v Speaker 2>and Qatar's relationship in the region. But first a quick

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<v Speaker 2>word from our sponsor.

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<v Speaker 1>Lussi. I'm sure that our listeners could already tell just

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<v Speaker 1>how much context there is here to unpack. We've spent

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of time over the past two years at least,

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<v Speaker 1>trying to put together the pieces of context in explaining

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<v Speaker 1>events happening in the Middle East. Yeah, for brevity and

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<v Speaker 1>for the best chance of understanding the key dynamics here,

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<v Speaker 1>why don't we start with the strike itself? So what

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<v Speaker 1>do we know about this strike that Israel launched in Qatar?

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<v Speaker 2>So this was the first known strike by Israel on Qatar.

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<v Speaker 2>Israeli fighter planes struck a building in Doha, the capital,

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<v Speaker 2>on Tuesday afternoon local time. Hamas said the strike targeted

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<v Speaker 2>members of its ceasefire negotiations team, but that they survived.

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<v Speaker 2>The group said Israel had killed six people, five of

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<v Speaker 2>whom were associated with the group, including the son of

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<v Speaker 2>its chief negotiator and then Israeli PM Benjamin Natnya, who

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<v Speaker 2>posted soon after the strike saying Israel took quote full

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<v Speaker 2>responsibility for the strike. I think to make it clear

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<v Speaker 2>that this wasn't something that he had the US's help.

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<v Speaker 1>With, got it. And so in that statement from Netna

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<v Speaker 1>who did he give justification for why this strike took place?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he said it was quote fully justified because of

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<v Speaker 2>the seven October attack by Hamas on Israel and by

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<v Speaker 2>a shooting in Jerusalem earlier.

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<v Speaker 1>In the week, and so to kind of bring all

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<v Speaker 1>of that together, this strike on the negotiating team for

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<v Speaker 1>Hamas in the country of Katar was fully justified, in

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<v Speaker 1>Menaohu's words, because of the original seventh of October attack.

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<v Speaker 1>But perhaps the catalyst most recently is this shooting in Jerusalem.

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<v Speaker 1>Talk to me about that shooting.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so those were both his kind of stated reasons, right,

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<v Speaker 2>And that shooting happened in Jerusalem earlier this week, to

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<v Speaker 2>gunman opened fire at a bus stop, killing six people.

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<v Speaker 2>They were reportedly shot dead by Israeli security forces at

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<v Speaker 2>the scene, and a third person was later arrested. The

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<v Speaker 2>shooting was at Ramot Junction, which is a major intersection

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<v Speaker 2>in an area that the International Court of Justice actually

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<v Speaker 2>considers illegally occupied by Israel. Hummas initially didn't take responsibility

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<v Speaker 2>for that shooting, but then overnight they announced, actually we

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<v Speaker 2>were responsible, that's what they said.

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<v Speaker 1>So this shooting happens in Israel, the second deadliest shooting

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<v Speaker 1>in Israel since October seven. It elicits a big response

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<v Speaker 1>from the government. But on Kamas, we know that it's

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<v Speaker 1>governed Gaza since the two thousands, This isn't new. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>why then were leaders based in Qatar? And can you

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<v Speaker 1>go a bit deeper on the relationship between Hamas and Katar.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So Hamas has had an office in Katar for

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<v Speaker 2>many years. It houses its political arm and obviously now

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<v Speaker 2>houses the negotiators between like Hamas's negotiators with Israel. Because

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<v Speaker 2>Qatar has been hosting and overseeing these negotiations since twenty

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<v Speaker 2>twenty three. Katari officials say this office was actually set

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<v Speaker 2>up with the support of the US, which is Israel's

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<v Speaker 2>closest ally and the aim of this was to set

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<v Speaker 2>up in direct lines of communication. This is actually a

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<v Speaker 2>very common thing that governments do. Governments will communicate with

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<v Speaker 2>each other or communicate with other groups in sort of

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<v Speaker 2>a roundabout or in direct way, because even if a

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<v Speaker 2>group or a country is in opposition to you, you

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<v Speaker 2>might still have reasons to talk to them. It's any

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<v Speaker 2>number of.

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<v Speaker 1>Well you might meet to in some situations.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So that idea of kind of having a country

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<v Speaker 1>with established frameworks for you to sit down at this

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<v Speaker 1>almost middle ground or neutral territory is valuable for governments

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<v Speaker 1>all over the world.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, or to relay messages. So there's another example that

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<v Speaker 2>I can give, which is that Australia has recently closed

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<v Speaker 2>our embassy in the capital of Iran and Tehran. But

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<v Speaker 2>that doesn't mean that Australia is no longer talking to

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<v Speaker 2>Iran at all. Obviously there are plenty of Iranian Australians

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<v Speaker 2>who have ties there. And then the government also like

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<v Speaker 2>we can talk through other Western nations that still have

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<v Speaker 2>embassies there, because we might still have reasons to talk

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<v Speaker 2>to them. So this is just a very standard practice

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<v Speaker 2>that even if it's a regime or a group that

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<v Speaker 2>you might have prescribed as a terrorist organization, you might

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<v Speaker 2>still have to talk to them. So there's got to

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<v Speaker 2>be a way for that to happen. The other thing

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<v Speaker 2>I should touch on is that Qatar has given a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of funding to Gaza since that office was set

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<v Speaker 2>up in twenty twelve, and I mean a lot of money.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm talking like more than a billion US dollars. A

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<v Speaker 2>lot of that has gone to the government in Gaza,

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<v Speaker 2>which is run by Hamas as we know, and a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of international media outlets, and I truly mean international,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean international news wires, US media and Israeli media

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<v Speaker 2>all say Israel's government approved of and facilitated this funding

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<v Speaker 2>arrangement until October twenty twenty three.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think what you're painting is is very complex

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<v Speaker 1>picture where there's no real benefit in US trying to

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<v Speaker 1>frame this as a simple you know, SIDEAVERS, side B,

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<v Speaker 1>with side C in the middle. It is multi layered

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<v Speaker 1>and intertwined a bit like a very complicated diplomatic spider web.

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<v Speaker 1>So then explain to me the relationship then, so we

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<v Speaker 1>understand the relationship between Hamas and Katar, now what's the

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<v Speaker 1>relationship between Israel and Qatar.

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<v Speaker 2>So I've been talking before about indirect relationships, and this

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<v Speaker 2>is another one of those kind of relationships that's characterized

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<v Speaker 2>by indirect communication, often in the sense of Qatar's role

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<v Speaker 2>as mediators between Hamas and Israel. The groundwork for this role,

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<v Speaker 2>like the reason why Qatar kind of has taken on

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<v Speaker 2>this role as an international mediator is that was kind

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<v Speaker 2>of laid back in the nineteen nineties when Qatar pledged

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<v Speaker 2>its support for the nineteen ninety three Oslo Accords, which

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<v Speaker 2>were an early attempt at Arab Israeli peace at the time.

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<v Speaker 2>This was significant because in backing calls for there to

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<v Speaker 2>be a Palestinian state and an Israeli state, Qatar was

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<v Speaker 2>recognizing legally that the state of Israel.

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<v Speaker 1>Exists, one of the first Arab nations to do that.

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<v Speaker 1>So always been kind of a I like to think

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<v Speaker 1>about Qatar almost as a bit of a calm head

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<v Speaker 1>in the neighborhood that can be a bit chaotic.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So then in nineteen ninety six, Qatar and Israel

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<v Speaker 2>normalzed the third legal term their relationship, which basically means

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<v Speaker 2>they set up diplomatic and economic ties. You might see

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<v Speaker 2>that word coming up again in future as more countries

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<v Speaker 2>kind of normalize relations with the new government of Syria,

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<v Speaker 2>for example. That is something that I expect to see

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<v Speaker 2>in coming months. In the ensuing years, there's been a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of ebbs and flows in terms of how strong

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<v Speaker 2>that relationship is. The nature of that relationship sometimes it's

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<v Speaker 2>been very public, sometimes it's been driven by kind of

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<v Speaker 2>indirect dealings, really depends on the situation. The end result

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<v Speaker 2>of this is that Qatar has been hosting negotiations between

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<v Speaker 2>Israel and Hamas since Hamas's attack on Israel, and I

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<v Speaker 2>mean really since the beginning. So for example, you might

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<v Speaker 2>remember the deal for a four day pause in November

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty three. That's when hostages taken by Hamas, primarily

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<v Speaker 2>women and children, were released in exchange for Palestinians held

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<v Speaker 2>in jails in Israel, also initially largely and children. And

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<v Speaker 2>just as a sort of side note, just for clarification's sake,

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<v Speaker 2>Israeli human rights group Betzalem has found Israeli authorities have

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<v Speaker 2>over the years detained thousands of Palestinians indefinitely in Israeli

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<v Speaker 2>jails without laying charges or without holding a trial. So

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<v Speaker 2>that's what we're talking about when we say prisoners.

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<v Speaker 1>And so Qatar's role in all of that, even in

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<v Speaker 1>those early days were talking a fortnite after that initial

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<v Speaker 1>attack by Hamas in Israel, was to be the host

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<v Speaker 1>and the facilitator of these talks.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. That had direct impacts like hostages and people who'd

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<v Speaker 2>been held in prisons getting set free.

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<v Speaker 1>And so when you consider the fact that there are

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<v Speaker 1>still believed to be at least twenty hostages still held

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<v Speaker 1>by Hamas in Gaza that are alive, Yeah, that are alive,

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<v Speaker 1>about forty three I think still in possession of the group,

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<v Speaker 1>you can understand why Katar continues to play a role

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<v Speaker 1>because these negotiations are ongoing, yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And they have borne some fruit. So that's why kind

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<v Speaker 2>of two years in Qatar is still a really important

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<v Speaker 2>part of that negotiation, regardless of what stage it's at.

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<v Speaker 1>And so these negotiations have been ongoing in Qatar. There's

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<v Speaker 1>now been a strike that Israel says it was targeting

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<v Speaker 1>the team of negotiators from Hamas. We don't know exactly

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<v Speaker 1>who was killed and where in Doha, But what will

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<v Speaker 1>happen to the talks then, because I imagine it's going

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<v Speaker 1>to be hard to kind of pick up and keep

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<v Speaker 1>going at least in the same location.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I mean the talks had essentially stalled. The

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<v Speaker 2>latest update was over the weekend, US President Donald Trump

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<v Speaker 2>saying Israel had accepted the terms of a ceasefire and

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<v Speaker 2>hostage release deal, telling Hamas it was its last warning

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<v Speaker 2>to accept. Hamas said it was discussing ideas about the deal.

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<v Speaker 2>In terms of kind of the intractable nature of these negotiations.

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<v Speaker 2>Hamas is seeking a full withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza.

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<v Speaker 2>Israel is seeking Hamas giving up its weapons and releasing

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<v Speaker 2>all the remaining hostages. It's hard to see a world

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<v Speaker 2>location wise where Katar continues hosting these talks. Obviously, there

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<v Speaker 2>was this Israeli strike that was targeting Hamas, but it

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<v Speaker 2>still had the impact of literally landing on Katari territory.

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<v Speaker 2>And you and I were discussing this morning, who would

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<v Speaker 2>volunteer to be a part of this. Egypt and the

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<v Speaker 2>US have been involved in negotiations of those two. The

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<v Speaker 2>US is part of NATO, the international military block, which

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<v Speaker 2>binds its members to go to war on each other's

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<v Speaker 2>behalf if they're attacked. I mean, this is hypothetically. It

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<v Speaker 2>seems very unlikely that Israel would strike its closest to ally,

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<v Speaker 2>even if it were targeting Hamas. But I think that

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<v Speaker 2>would probably rule out the US, just because of that

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<v Speaker 2>kind of binding obligation. Sure, but then again, as I said,

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<v Speaker 2>who would volunteer for the possibility of, after two years

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<v Speaker 2>of negotiations that you could be fired upon. There's also

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<v Speaker 2>the possibility that ceasefire negotiations would continue in a location

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<v Speaker 2>without Hamas present, But that would effectively make them illegitimate.

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<v Speaker 1>Which is kind of the conversations that we've been having

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<v Speaker 1>in the context of Russia and Ukraine. This idea of

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<v Speaker 1>Donald Trump discussing a ceasefire with Putin without Zelenski there

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<v Speaker 1>representing Ukraine kind of delegitimizes the hopes of a genuine ceasefire.

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<v Speaker 1>That sort of lenses now being applied here.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and then separately talking to Zelensky without Putin, got it,

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<v Speaker 2>and then stepping away and being like, Okay, you guys

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<v Speaker 2>choose a location and then that's been impossible.

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<v Speaker 1>And so the necessity of a third party I think

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<v Speaker 1>is pretty widely agreed upon from all sides. Ye. What

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<v Speaker 1>I've taken away from this story that I'm trying to

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<v Speaker 1>work through is trying to understand the nature of a

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<v Speaker 1>group in Gaza being controlled from outside the territory and

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<v Speaker 1>how that's all been set up. Is I think that

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<v Speaker 1>that hasn't been a topic that we've discussed a lot

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<v Speaker 1>in the two years since, and it's been really brought

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<v Speaker 1>into the spotlight with this labor strike.

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<v Speaker 2>Definitely.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, well, that is a really complex one, Lucy and

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<v Speaker 1>I feel like we've been saying this for a couple

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<v Speaker 1>of years now, but we are going to need to

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<v Speaker 1>kind of understand what happened next. YEA, come back in

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<v Speaker 1>here and talk our audience through it. So thank you

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<v Speaker 1>everybody at home and listening on your way to work

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<v Speaker 1>or at any point in your day for joining us.

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<v Speaker 1>We're going to be back this evening with your headlines.

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<v Speaker 1>Until then, have a good day.

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<v Speaker 2>My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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<v Speaker 2>Bungelung Kalkadin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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<v Speaker 2>Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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<v Speaker 2>first peoples of these countries, both past and present.