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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just once answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, that's what courage looks like. It's an authentic stamp

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Speaker 2: of how he's living his life. And there's something really

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Speaker 2: beautiful about completely relentless desires and passions that you're willing

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Speaker 2: to pursue despite the public stay.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, My mom

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Speaker 1: and Dad.

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Speaker 3: Gooday. This is doctor Justin Colson, the author of six

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Speaker 3: books about making you family Happier, the parenting expert on

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Speaker 3: Channel nine's Parental Guidance. And every now and again, I

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Speaker 3: don't know how to say this and not sound like

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Speaker 3: I'm gushing or being silly about it, but every now

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Speaker 3: and again on this podcast, I get to talk to

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Speaker 3: somebody who I am so dead set stoked to talk to.

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Speaker 3: And today is one of those days. Professor Todd Kashton

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Speaker 3: is a psychology I'm just going to say, a psychology guru.

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Speaker 1: This.

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Speaker 3: I've been interacting with Todd via email and reading his

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Speaker 3: books and looking at his science for like the last

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Speaker 3: fifteen or twenty years. He's a professor of psychology at

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Speaker 3: George Mason University and a dad to three Daughters, which

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Speaker 3: is very, very important for our conversation today. He's the

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Speaker 3: author of a whole bunch of books and probably one

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Speaker 3: of my favorite researchers on the planet. And Todd has

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Speaker 3: recently written a book called The Art of Insubordination. This

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Speaker 3: is going to be one of my top three books. Probably,

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Speaker 3: it's absolutely going to be my top books of twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty two. I read this book with nervous anticipation. I

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Speaker 3: wanted it to be good, but books on this topic

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Speaker 3: traditionally haven't excited me, and this I was just blown away.

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Speaker 3: I was so excited about it. So today I'm having

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Speaker 3: a conversation with, like I said, one of my favorite

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Speaker 3: researchers on the planet, Professor Todd Cashton. Welcome to The

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Speaker 3: Happy Family's podcast, and thanks for taking time out to

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Speaker 3: be with me to.

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Speaker 2: Finally talk after ten years of interacting by snail mail

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Speaker 2: and passenger pigeons.

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Speaker 3: Hey yeah, Todd, probably talk for hours about all of this.

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Speaker 3: But because of our history and the million questions that

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Speaker 3: I want to ask you, and I want everyone to

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Speaker 3: know you in the way that I've come to know

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Speaker 3: you over the last however long it's been. But I

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Speaker 3: really think that we should stick to the book because

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Speaker 3: it's going to give people a snapshot of the kind

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Speaker 3: of person that you are. I'm going to say that

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Speaker 3: you're a principled rebel. You're the kind of person who

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Speaker 3: doesn't just follow the standard line. But there are really

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Speaker 3: good reasons that you don't, but you do when you

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Speaker 3: need to because it makes sense. And the book is

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Speaker 3: kind of about getting this right, the art of insubordination.

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Speaker 3: I read it, Like I said, I totally loved it.

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Speaker 3: As a population and particularly as parents, we've got a

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Speaker 3: challenging relationship with the concept of insubordination. Like when we

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Speaker 3: talk about it, we're like, yeah, yeah, I want my

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Speaker 3: kids to think for themselves. I want them to be independent.

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Speaker 3: I want them to I want them to not be

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Speaker 3: swayed by the crowd. And yet when they start to

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Speaker 3: think for themselves, when I start to become independent, particularly

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Speaker 3: in our living room or kitchen or their bedroom, as parents,

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Speaker 3: we don't respond particularly well to they're insubordination.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, even more than that, I mean, we want people

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Speaker 2: to be independent from the crowd. At the same time,

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Speaker 2: as parents, we are so concerned when our kid is

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Speaker 2: not accepted by the crowd and it's not spending time

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Speaker 2: with those kids that are at the top of these

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Speaker 2: arbitrary social hierarchies that exist everywhere. And we have to

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Speaker 2: first acknowledge reality as it is, which is all of

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Speaker 2: life is a middle school playground, where in terms of

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Speaker 2: there are kids who are more socially attractive than others

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Speaker 2: viewed from other kids, whether it's physical attractiveness, intelligence, wit, kindness, humor,

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Speaker 2: you know, athletic skills, just physical size and fortitude. And

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Speaker 2: then there are kids at the bottom. And while we

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Speaker 2: want kids to be independent, critical thinkers, we also want

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Speaker 2: them to fit in. And you're at the crux. We're

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Speaker 2: immediately at a parentadox of how do we accept our

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Speaker 2: kid dealing with the complexity of being socially popular and

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Speaker 2: independent of what the herd is going to say?

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Speaker 3: And how do we do that? I mean, that's the

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Speaker 3: purpose of this conversation, right, how do we how do

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Speaker 3: we do that? In relation to I want them to

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Speaker 3: be I want them to be popular. I want the

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Speaker 3: well not even popular. I want them to have good relationships.

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Speaker 3: And yet as soon as they're in a relationship in

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Speaker 3: a school context, there's potential for things to go wrong.

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Speaker 3: I kind of feel like I'm answering my own question.

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Speaker 3: I feel like we've got to teach them values, right,

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Speaker 3: but those values, they can get so rigid around those

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Speaker 3: values that they can't make friends because of that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I mean it starts with language. You're right,

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Speaker 2: popularity is and what we're looking for, we're really looking of.

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Speaker 2: We want our youth to be compelling. And to what's

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Speaker 2: compelling you can break it into an equation, right, compelling

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Speaker 2: is you have likability plus competence, and to some degree,

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Speaker 2: as parents and as teachers and society pretend to put

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Speaker 2: the extra emphasis on the confidence part. So I want

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Speaker 2: you to be intellectual. I want you to be able

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Speaker 2: to understand World War one or World War two. I

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Speaker 2: want you to be aware of, you know, racial dynamics

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Speaker 2: from you know, from sixteen nineteen onward. I want you

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Speaker 2: to be understanding of you know, who, you know, which

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Speaker 2: which groups subjugated, which groups in which country, and be

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Speaker 2: aware of this. I want you to be athletic. I

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Speaker 2: want you to be able to do ten pushups and

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Speaker 2: ten setups. I want you to be able to run

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Speaker 2: up a flight of stairs and not be winded. I

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Speaker 2: want you to be able to be physically agile enough

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Speaker 2: so that if you fell with the spill in Aisle

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Speaker 2: five in a grocery store, you could get back up

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Speaker 2: and you wouldn't be paralyzed because you've worked out your body.

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Speaker 2: That's the competence part, and society puts a lot of emphasis.

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Speaker 2: But we also have the liability part, which is not

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Speaker 2: necessarily being nice, kind of compassion all the time. But

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Speaker 2: people want to be around you, and when you're when

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Speaker 2: people are around you, they're energized, they're charged up. The

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Speaker 2: best parts of the personality come out. You put these

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Speaker 2: two pieces together, it's about a compelling person. And so

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Speaker 2: I think just starrying there with clearly defining exactly the

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Speaker 2: parameters of what we're looking for, and then we can

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Speaker 2: start to build out. We can talk about kind of

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Speaker 2: the strategies to get likability and the strategies to get confident.

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Speaker 3: I love this. And if we tie back into my

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Speaker 3: previous comment about values, this is where we start to

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Speaker 3: get the clash right, because you might have a reasonably

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Speaker 3: competent child who is likable, except that they've got a

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Speaker 3: particular value that's not very likable. I'm going to give

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Speaker 3: you a concrete example, and I know that this one

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Speaker 3: is going to clash a little bit with your values. So, well,

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Speaker 3: this is a G rated no swearing podcast. You like

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Speaker 3: course language, you like a swear word out now and then,

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Speaker 3: and I'm a non swearer, which is so funny. You

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Speaker 3: and I were actually very different, but we're also wonderfully

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Speaker 3: aligned in so many ways. So we've taught our kids that, well,

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Speaker 3: I mean, we don't use course language, we don't swear.

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Speaker 3: And so what they've done is they've internalized that swearing

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Speaker 3: is bad, and we've now got to try to teach

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Speaker 3: them just because somebody does swear doesn't make them a

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Speaker 3: bad person, but because kids, especially when they're young, right,

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Speaker 3: they're so concrete in their thinking. When the kids all

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Speaker 3: start using course language at school and they start dropping

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Speaker 3: f bombs around the place from let's say grade four,

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Speaker 3: grade five, something like that, and the kids really start

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Speaker 3: to let this stuff out, our kids begin to We've

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Speaker 3: watched this happen with all of them. They begin to

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Speaker 3: move away from those kids who are using that language.

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Speaker 3: Because while I thought you were my friend, but if

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Speaker 3: you're going to use that language, you can't be my friend.

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Speaker 3: And I've asked you not to because I don't like it,

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Speaker 3: and you're still doing it. You're ignoring what I value,

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Speaker 3: so therefore we can't be friends. And so the likability

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Speaker 3: if we go back to your competence and likability, my

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Speaker 3: kids are competent, but now that there's a values clash

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Speaker 3: around this particular language issue, they've suddenly become less likable

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Speaker 3: in the eyes of their friends who want to be

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Speaker 3: able to swear because they feel often strong and mature

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Speaker 3: because they're using adult language, right, And I wonder if

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Speaker 3: you can just talk about what parents can do. I'm

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Speaker 3: sure that not every parent is dealing with this particular issue,

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Speaker 3: but they will be having those kinds of values clashes.

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Speaker 3: How do you respond to that in relation to this

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Speaker 3: concept of teaching your kids to be likable when that

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Speaker 3: values clash is there.

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Speaker 2: I am so glad you brought up this concrete example

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Speaker 2: because let's play with this, because it offers an avenue

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Speaker 2: to really understand what parents can do. So you captured

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Speaker 2: our differences. But actually, now let me explain how my

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Speaker 2: parents with course language, which I think we're going to

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Speaker 2: be completely on the same page about so my kids.

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Speaker 2: Because I'm from New York City, so I came from

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Speaker 2: a rough and tumble culture. So I'm very comfortable with

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Speaker 2: course language, and my kids are taught that in the

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Speaker 2: household you can use any language you want around me.

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Speaker 2: But people that are creative, now we get back to confidence.

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Speaker 2: People that are creative are able to use more interesting

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Speaker 2: language to describe moments. So when you use describe moments

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Speaker 2: when they would use profanity. So when do you use

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Speaker 2: profanity when you're in pain? So we know for research

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Speaker 2: that if you use profanity when you're in pain, your

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Speaker 2: distressed tolerance, your frustration tolerance, your ability to handle physical

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Speaker 2: disruptions to your body goes up. Now how much you know,

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Speaker 2: who knows, Maybe it's a ten percent bump. We also

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Speaker 2: know it's a wave of endearment. So you can, you know,

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Speaker 2: talk about your friends using profanity, and it's a way

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Speaker 2: to actually to show anger and indignation of someone pisses

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Speaker 2: you off, and you use language. So I trained my

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Speaker 2: kids of listen, anybody can use the you know, the

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Speaker 2: seven dangerous words of bad language that George Carlin talked

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Speaker 2: about in the seventies. But the truly creative ones are

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Speaker 2: the ones that make their own language where people are

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Speaker 2: people are allies and join you in your quest of

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Speaker 2: whatever it is, Bob you if someone upsets you, if

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Speaker 2: you like somebody, people will be like, oh maybe I

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Speaker 2: should like them too, if you can use your own terms.

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Speaker 2: So here are some terms that my kids often use.

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Speaker 2: If I say something ridiculously stupid or one of their friends,

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Speaker 2: do they call me a chicken head or their friends

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Speaker 2: of chicken head. One of my kids, when she was eight, Raven,

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Speaker 2: she's now fifteen, she came up with a term that

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Speaker 2: I still use. As opposed to using a profane word

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Speaker 2: to describe your peeps, she came up with the term brochontcha.

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Speaker 2: Now I use this word all the time. So it

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Speaker 2: is so it's it undercuts any dangerous as you were

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Speaker 2: describing adult language. Look you cool. She is so creative.

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Speaker 2: She comes up with this her own lexicon. It's very

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Speaker 2: clear in context what it is. And so there's a

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Speaker 2: few things that are happening here. So one is I'm

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Speaker 2: training my kids is that creativity is something that's valued

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Speaker 2: in friendship as well as you know, in court, in

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Speaker 2: early romances or whatever it is. And it's also is

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Speaker 2: attractive to adults in that you're showing a level of

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Speaker 2: etiquette and you're showing that you're interesting, and you're showing

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Speaker 2: is that there's more to you than I. There's sort

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Speaker 2: of an intrigue factor where I don't know everything about you.

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Speaker 2: The other part of this is I'm training them to

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Speaker 2: be their own individualized versions of how they're going to

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Speaker 2: use language and how they're going to interact with the

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Speaker 2: rest of the world other than my household. And so

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Speaker 2: I'm giving them a free pass. I'm telling them like, listen,

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Speaker 2: go forth, as I'm going to be your safe haven,

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Speaker 2: which is basically I know when you leave this house,

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Speaker 2: you're going to grow and expand and meet new characters.

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Speaker 2: I will only know them from the narratives that you

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Speaker 2: tell me because I won't have first ten experience. I

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Speaker 2: welcome it. I push you in that direction, and here

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Speaker 2: are some strategies that have helped you along the way.

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Speaker 2: But I'm not going to hold your hands. So all

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Speaker 2: of that is in them from just the idea of

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Speaker 2: having a less adversarial relationship with profanity and more of

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Speaker 2: here's just one more domain where you can be really

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Speaker 2: personalize your stamp on the world.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to make sure that my daughter listens to

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Speaker 3: this conversation because I and you know what else it

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Speaker 3: does on top of those, I think you mentioned three things,

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Speaker 3: maybe it was four. I lost count. It also makes

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Speaker 3: you child more fun. Yeah, it's they're kind of they're

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Speaker 3: insubordinating the common language as well as the course or

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Speaker 3: profane language by creating their own language, which makes them

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Speaker 3: a more fun person, which ties in with that creative

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Speaker 3: piece that you were talking about. I love it.

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Speaker 2: You know what made me realize that is, you know,

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Speaker 2: I've done a lot of international travel before before COVID hit,

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Speaker 2: and you go to the countries and they just have

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Speaker 2: different terms of that are basically the profane terms. And

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Speaker 2: you know, what's profane in the UK and what's profane

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Speaker 2: in Sri Lanka are foreign entities in the United States,

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Speaker 2: And you realize there's so much you could do with language,

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Speaker 2: and it's so cheapens the extreme emotions that we feel,

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Speaker 2: you know, the high highs of like love and pleasure,

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Speaker 2: and as you're saying fun being around your you know,

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Speaker 2: your core characters in your life, and then being having

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Speaker 2: adversaries and even a nemesis that's in your life, and

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Speaker 2: you can't describe that with just saying I'm angry. It's

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Speaker 2: it's a deeper emotion. You are defined by your nemeses,

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Speaker 2: and your kids will have nemeses, and so to be

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Speaker 2: able to be creative and describe them as like, you know,

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Speaker 2: Dante's Last you know, you know, least stage of Hell

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Speaker 2: is a much more creative approach. It's like it's deep

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Speaker 2: and it's traumatic, and it's intellectual. It's like you said,

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Speaker 2: it's interesting and it's fun. And then other people are like, okay,

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Speaker 2: so what's if that's level seven of Dante's Inferno? What's

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Speaker 2: level six and five? And all of a sudden, you

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Speaker 2: got yourself a much more interesting conversation as opposed to, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that kid is annoying.

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Speaker 3: And now I've got to go and raid Dante to

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Speaker 3: my kids. Thanks for the thanks all inspiration. Let's come

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Speaker 3: back to the insubordination idea, which which is at the

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Speaker 3: core of your book. We've talked about values, We've talked

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Speaker 3: about this, competence and likability. This interview can't go ahead

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Speaker 3: until I bring up one thing that you talked about

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Speaker 3: in the book that completely blew my mind. I'm just

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Speaker 3: going to use two words, and I want you to

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Speaker 3: take this wherever you want, because we are talking about insubordination,

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Speaker 3: and it's got to come back to kids eventually. But

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Speaker 3: free throws, basketball, free throws? Can you just do something

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Speaker 3: with that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? So, I mean right now, basketball is slowly working

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Speaker 2: its way up to be one of the most popular

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Speaker 2: sports Indrewn Ashley ahead, you know, right up there with

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Speaker 2: you know, European soccer. And the idea of the free

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Speaker 2: throw is you you were fouled, and so there was

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Speaker 2: basically a violation of the rules of the game and

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Speaker 2: you as a result, you get to be at this

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Speaker 2: line fifteen feet away from a basket where you're going

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Speaker 2: to throw the ball into and one else is still

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Speaker 2: your team and the other team nobody's allowed to move.

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Speaker 2: So when you even bounce the ball as you're waiting

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Speaker 2: to shoot that ball fifteen feet away from the basket,

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Speaker 2: it is dead silence. This is a terrifying experience. Many

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Speaker 2: basketball players in the professional leagues who are making millions

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Speaker 2: of dollars, barely get over fifty percent of their shots

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Speaker 2: in in terms at the free throw line. There's something

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Speaker 2: about the the trepidation of having all eyes at least

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Speaker 2: perception wise on you and the entire game on a

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Speaker 2: team sport, but for this moment, for this potential point,

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Speaker 2: everything hinges on your shoulders and a lot of people

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Speaker 2: can't handle this pressure. So a strategy. There are two

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Speaker 2: ways of throwing a free throw. One one way of

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Speaker 2: throwing it which little kids three, four, five, six years

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Speaker 2: of age will do, which they take the ball and

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Speaker 2: they rocket between their legs and they throw it underhand

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Speaker 2: to get to the basket.

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Speaker 3: That'd be a Grennie shot. That's how I'd call.

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Speaker 2: That the Grannie shot. Yeah. So this is if you

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Speaker 2: watch kids first pick up a basketball and you point

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Speaker 2: to a hoop that's higher than them and say, get

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Speaker 2: that ball on there. They don't do it overhand. They

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Speaker 2: take the ball and they're in their two hands and

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Speaker 2: they rock it back and forth and throw it as

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Speaker 2: high as they can. And there's a reason that they

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Speaker 2: do this, That kids pick this up naturally, it's because

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Speaker 2: it is the most fluid efficient motion physics wise anatomically

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Speaker 2: wise to project the ball upward into the air. The

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Speaker 2: other way of throwing a ball is what you would

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Speaker 2: see if you watch high school basketball games, college basketball games,

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Speaker 2: or professional basketball games, which is this very complicated set

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Speaker 2: of maneuvers where one hand, both of your arms are

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Speaker 2: bent at the elbow around your chest level. One of

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Speaker 2: your hands is holding the ball and that hand is

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Speaker 2: going to project the ball forward towards the basketball. The

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Speaker 2: other hand slightly holds the edge of the ball as

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Speaker 2: a stabilizer, and both of those hands are going to

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Speaker 2: push forward, but only one hand is going to push

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Speaker 2: that ball at hopefully around a forty degree angle to

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Speaker 2: get to the basketball.

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Speaker 3: Hoop with You've got to put backspin on it, don't you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you want if you could, you preferably with your hand,

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Speaker 2: have a little bit of a shift in your hands

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Speaker 2: so it turns. So it's going to turn backwards when

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Speaker 2: it hits the rim, and so it'll slow its speed,

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Speaker 2: bounce off the rim or the backboard, and have multiple

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Speaker 2: possibilities to get into the hoop if you don't get

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Speaker 2: a swish or it perfectly goes through the hoop. Now,

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Speaker 2: the interesting thing about the free throws is everybody does

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Speaker 2: it the hard way. Two hands, one stabilizer, one one

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Speaker 2: one arm is propulsion, one arm is stabilizing. Everybody uses

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Speaker 2: this right now. There is two basketball players in all

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Speaker 2: colleges around the United States and all professional leagues, there

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Speaker 2: are two players that will throw it underhand, so it's

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Speaker 2: not even ninety nine point nine to nine percent, it

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Speaker 2: just goes those nine just go forever. It's basically two

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Speaker 2: human beings are willing to throw underhand, and the reason

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Speaker 2: is because this is looks so amazing. These athletes are

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Speaker 2: being paid astronomical amounts of money for one reason, only

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Speaker 2: win games, so we can win money as our franchise.

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Speaker 2: But the fear of looking foolish, the embarrassment of being

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Speaker 2: a little like a little to act like a little

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Speaker 2: kid and slowly rock the ball between your legs has

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Speaker 2: become so normative as something that's scornful, resentful, embarrassing, humiliating,

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Speaker 2: and for lack of a better word, non mask that

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Speaker 2: nobody's willing to do this, and professional players will say

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Speaker 2: this in interviews repeatedly, which says, I would never I

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Speaker 2: would rather stop playing basketball than throw the ball underhand

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Speaker 2: as a granted shot. And if grown adults who are

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Speaker 2: the most physically some of the most physically fit specimens

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Speaker 2: of humans on the earth, who are paid millions, are

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Speaker 2: unwilling to throw the better way that's more accurate and

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Speaker 2: more reliable, that will make them more money and have

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Speaker 2: their team win more games, they're unwilling to do this

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Speaker 2: because they're embarrassed of deviating from the norm. What does

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Speaker 2: that say about society in terms of being able to

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Speaker 2: think for yourself and question and be skeptical about popular

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Speaker 2: sentiments in the culture.

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Speaker 3: What ago you're on? Why can you just I can't

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Speaker 3: remember exactly the stat but you mentioned in the book

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Speaker 3: a basketball player who does or did I think he's

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Speaker 3: retired now, he did play with an underhand free throw

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Speaker 3: and Rick Barry, Yeah, that's right. And what was his

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Speaker 3: what was his percentage of hits?

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Speaker 2: Ninety four percent of his shots would go in over

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Speaker 2: the course of his career.

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Speaker 3: And you're saying that the majority don't even hit fifty percent.

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Speaker 2: Well, I was, I was probably being a little unfortunately hyperbolic.

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Speaker 2: So it's around the average percent at the at the

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Speaker 2: professional level is around seventy six percent, and the average

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Speaker 2: percentage of getting in a free throw at the college

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Speaker 2: level is under seventy percent.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So we told hi, you're about a twenty to

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Speaker 3: twenty five percent improvement by doing something that is insubordinate.

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Speaker 2: Right and just, and just for those of for those

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Speaker 2: people listing that aren't basketball fans, most games are won

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Speaker 2: with by less than ten points. So you're talking about

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Speaker 2: giving away potentially twenty points per game. If if one

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Speaker 2: team kept throwing overhand and one team through granias, that's

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Speaker 2: a twenty point differential all else being equal.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So that's the that's of phenomenal. It's an incredible story,

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Speaker 3: and it's a long while, but I think the story

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Speaker 3: is worth it. But it's a long way to get

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Speaker 3: to this point, and that is, how do we teach

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Speaker 3: your kids to not be afraid to throw on the

390
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Speaker 3: hand metaphorically speaking, Yeah, no.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad. I'm glad you took it to this place.

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Speaker 2: Essentially is we want to be training everyone. I mean,

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Speaker 2: kids are just you know, they're not They're not small

394
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Speaker 2: adults because it's not like the job of kids is

395
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Speaker 2: to become big adults. The job of kids is just

396
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Speaker 2: to live a good life and learn and grow just

397
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Speaker 2: like adults. We want to be teaching about functionality. I mean,

398
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Speaker 2: we want to be teaching about to live by your

399
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Speaker 2: principles and losing by your losing while you stick to

400
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Speaker 2: your principles is better than winning by taking the shortcuts.

401
00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:58,840
Speaker 2: I mean, that's what this is about. When you're when

402
00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:04,919
Speaker 2: you're choosing a dysfunctional social norm. That's that's we know statistically,

403
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,960
Speaker 2: we know by science, we know just by a proof

404
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,919
Speaker 2: of concept of watching people do it, that something is

405
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,840
Speaker 2: easier and the harder way is acceptable because it looks cool.

406
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Speaker 2: We're moving away from function, We're moving away from we're

407
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:23,199
Speaker 2: moving away from principles. We are allowing social acceptability to

408
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 2: override everything that every metric that's important to the domain

409
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Speaker 2: that you're focusing on. So take I mean, if you know,

410
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 2: you take it into reading. There's there are some books

411
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Speaker 2: that are going to be more popular and look cooler

412
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Speaker 2: in the presence of other kids, and other books will

413
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Speaker 2: be you know, deemed as inferior or you know, just

414
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Speaker 2: you know, undesirable. I mean, just think of this for

415
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Speaker 2: an example. There are so many books that are deemed

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Speaker 2: under These books are what girls read, and these books

417
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,719
Speaker 2: are what guys. So if you think, you know, if

418
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:01,720
Speaker 2: you think about high school, just think about Jane Eyre.

419
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,440
Speaker 2: You know, the idea of a guy reading Jane Eyre

420
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Speaker 2: as they're sitting on a grassy knoll on a you know,

421
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:12,680
Speaker 2: on a college campus. Your first your first inference is one,

422
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:15,760
Speaker 2: are they are they in meeting mode, and they're trying

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Speaker 2: to attract other people in terms of like, because one

424
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 2: strategy to attract a mate is to is to show

425
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,040
Speaker 2: that you are open mind to reading books that are

426
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Speaker 2: atypical for you know, for for a man to read

427
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:30,120
Speaker 2: and for a woman, you know, to read a book

428
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Speaker 2: that's kind of that's a contrary to the norm of

429
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Speaker 2: what a woman should read. So just to keep to

430
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Speaker 2: keep it stereotypical. A woman reading a book about, you know,

431
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,679
Speaker 2: mechanical engineering, a guy reading a book on you know,

432
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 2: written by Jane Eyre. You're talking about stereotypical, stereotype, non

433
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 2: conforming behavior. People are skeptical about whether they actually like

434
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,080
Speaker 2: what they're reading or they're trying to, you know, present

435
00:23:55,160 --> 00:24:00,640
Speaker 2: themselves as someone that's nonconformist. I would say is that

436
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:06,880
Speaker 2: when we see people that act in counter stereotypical ways,

437
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,439
Speaker 2: how we frame those moments is going to create an

438
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 2: image for our children of how they can behave and

439
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,399
Speaker 2: deviate from social norms. So every time that you see

440
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 2: someone that dresses in an unusual way and it looks

441
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 2: like they're enjoying themselves, dancing by themselves with their headphones

442
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 2: on on the street while everybody looks at them. Funny

443
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,880
Speaker 2: what you should be doing in those moments and laugh,

444
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 2: enjoy the moment. I mean the these are unusual moments.

445
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 2: You see somebody on a Unice criticle and they're dancing

446
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 2: and they're singing, you know, abba songs from the nineteen

447
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:43,400
Speaker 2: seventies while going down the street. It's an unusual scenario.

448
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,400
Speaker 2: I would point to my kids and say, listen, that

449
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 2: guy is that is That's what courage looks like. It's

450
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 2: this authentic stamp of how he's living his life. And

451
00:24:54,240 --> 00:25:01,880
Speaker 2: there's something really beautiful about completely relentless desires and passionate

452
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 2: that you're willing to pursue despite the public stairits.

453
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,120
Speaker 3: Todd I reckon. We could talk for days about this.

454
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:13,679
Speaker 3: You've got an entire chapter about encouraging principled rebellion in

455
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 3: kids in the book The Art of Insubordination, and I

456
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 3: loved reading that chapter. I thought that the way you

457
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 3: brought the science into it but also made it made

458
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:28,160
Speaker 3: it so accessible, it was just really really worth worth investigating.

459
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 3: Before we wrap up, there's a question that's been on

460
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 3: my mind quite a lot in the last couple of years.

461
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 3: In Australia, we've had a lot of big. In fact, globally,

462
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 3: there's been a lot of really big conversations about masculinity.

463
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 3: And I'm thinking about insubordination in relation to raising boys

464
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:49,879
Speaker 3: who are willing to question the masculine, the dominant masculine

465
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 3: narrative that exists, and that is, unfortunately, in some places

466
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 3: toxic to use the term, because because there is this

467
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:00,880
Speaker 3: idea out there, right, boys are supposed to be big

468
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 3: and strong, They're supposed to keep their emotions in check.

469
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 3: They're supposed to be on this sexual conquest all the time.

470
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 3: They're allowed to, they're allowed to be angry, but not

471
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 3: much else. There is this sort of I've got a

472
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 3: book on my shelf right behind me here by a

473
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,439
Speaker 3: Harvard research called Bill Pollock, called Real Boys, and he

474
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 3: talks about all the different ways that this masculinity narrative

475
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 3: plays out. How would we teach our kids to become

476
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,400
Speaker 3: insubordinate in the face of what is really a society

477
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 3: wide expectation and still managed to hold the head high, right,

478
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 3: I mean there's so much pressure to conform to the norm.

479
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you just asked an hour and a

480
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,159
Speaker 2: half conversation question, Yeah.

481
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, in ninety seconds or less please, I.

482
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 2: Mean, I mean, so my immediate response when people talk

483
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 2: about toxic masculinity is twofold. One is, something you said,

484
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 2: which I think is important, is we had outdated scripts

485
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 2: about how boys are supposed to behave and how girls

486
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 2: are supposed to be I mean, there's no question about that,

487
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 2: and I think you captured it very nicely, so it's

488
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 2: no reason for me to repeat it. The second one

489
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:15,919
Speaker 2: is we have to allow variety in individual differences in

490
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 2: people's behavior. So anytime that we're talking about an entire

491
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 2: species all boys, all men, all girls, all women under

492
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 2: one monolithic entity, we're whatever we say about for describing that,

493
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 2: we're immediately moving into bovels. I mean, there's a reason

494
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 2: that boys tend to act in a particular way that

495
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 2: on average, is different than girls. You could think about

496
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:46,440
Speaker 2: it from a list of evolutionary motives that god behavior.

497
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 2: So let me just kind of humor you with a

498
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 2: few of them. Avoid toxins, so that could be you know,

499
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,679
Speaker 2: particular foods, particular animals, anything that's going to kind of

500
00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 2: given a sense of disease. Avoid enemy. So you're going

501
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 2: to know there are people that are predictable, characters that

502
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 2: are going to be dangerous and likely to violate you

503
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 2: and be physically dangerous to be around. Make friends, find

504
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 2: romantic partners, maintain relationships romantic partners. Develop a strong sense

505
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,719
Speaker 2: of identity so that you're not pulled by the whims

506
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 2: the whimsical ideas and preferences of other people. Have a

507
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 2: focus on generativity, where you're considering not you're just yourself,

508
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 2: but pro socially thinking about other people and developing a

509
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,679
Speaker 2: sense of physical care for you. So in terms of

510
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 2: your physical health, you're being agile, strong sense of endurance

511
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 2: that happens there. So you have a mating mindset, you

512
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 2: have a physical health mindset, you have a friend finding mindset,

513
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 2: you have avoid disease and toxin's mindset. We behave differently

514
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 2: depending on which one of those modes is activated by

515
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 2: the situation. So some of of things that we regard

516
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 2: as problematic as masculinity are actually perfectly appropriate for the

517
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 2: task at hand. So if you're talking about dealing with danger, toxin,

518
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 2: disease and enemies, in this case, is perfectly okay to

519
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 2: assert yourself and show the dominant side of your personality

520
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 2: and even be contenters in situations. Now, in terms of

521
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 2: finding friends, maintaining friendships, finding mats, maintaining mates. In this

522
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 2: situation is where we want to worried outdated scripts. Like

523
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 2: you said, hunters and hunted, and the idea is we

524
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 2: want we want boys to realize is that the way

525
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 2: that you're going to be socially attracted to other people

526
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 2: is not going to be hunting people and treating them

527
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 2: as a means to an end, but as an end

528
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 2: to themselves. And so the idea of keeping your head

529
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 2: high is to realize that you do not have this

530
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 2: stable set of personality characteristics. You have a particular person

531
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 2: that's activated by situations. So the way to actually work

532
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 2: with boys is not to kind of undo hundreds of

533
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 2: years of society, but to think of in which area

534
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 2: are you seeing behavior that's not workable at getting getting

535
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 2: the goals that they want. So it's easy to tweak about, Hey, listen,

536
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 2: you're really funny, you're extremely witty in terms of talking

537
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 2: to other people, but you're horrible at listening and you

538
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 2: ask very few questions. Add this to your repertoire. You're

539
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 2: going to make more friends and you're going to find

540
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 2: that whatever mats you're looking for, people are going to

541
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 2: be more attracted towards you. So now we've modified specific

542
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 2: behaviors as opposed to saying we're trying to remove elements

543
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 2: of masculinity. And I think that's going to be a

544
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 2: more useful strategy of thinking about trying to change masculinity,

545
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 2: which is so overwhelming that there's almost nothing you can

546
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 2: do with that.

547
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 3: What I love about that as well is number one direct,

548
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 3: which works really well for guys, right. I mean, sometimes

549
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 3: we need to be hit right between the eyes with

550
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 3: good advice, and that what you just said there is

551
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 3: so direct, And secondly, it's so specific, it's so concrete.

552
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 3: It's like, Okay, yeah, I can do that, as opposed to,

553
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 3: as you said, this nebulous, enormous, impossible change that I'm

554
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 3: supposed to change the very nature of myself and the

555
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 3: way society sees me so that I can conform to

556
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 3: a new norm. And I mean, we are moving in

557
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 3: an increasingly positive direction in some segments of our society,

558
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 3: but there's so much room to move. And I get

559
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 3: the sense that if we can give that personalized help

560
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 3: to our boys in particular, it could make a difference. Todd,

561
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 3: I reckon, there's been just so helpful for so many parents.

562
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 3: I really wish we could keep on going, but I

563
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 3: need to honor your time. You've been more than generous already,

564
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 3: and we have gone over time. Thanks for joining me

565
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 3: in this conversation today.

566
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, you ask amazing questions. So I am happy to

567
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 2: have three hour conversations anytime anyway. And I am glad

568
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 2: that there are resources now where more information is coming

569
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 2: in as parents, because all of us want the manual

570
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 2: and none of us got the manual.

571
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, one of those resources I reckon should be

572
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 3: Todd Kashton's book, The Art of Insubordination. It's got a

573
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 3: whole lot more in the subtitle, but that's all you

574
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 3: need to google. Todd Kashton Art of Insubordination. Great book,

575
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 3: and and a wonderful chapter on pairenting right at the end.

576
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 3: But it's just a fascinating book. Generally. The Happy Families podcast,

577
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 3: as always, is produced by Justin Ruland for Bridge Media.

578
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 3: Craig Bruce is our executive producer, and if you like

579
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 3: more info about making your family happier, you can visit

580
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 3: Happyfamilies dot com dot a u