Speaker 1: Ordinarily Speaking. I've always been a proud Indigenous man, but
Speaker 1: now it's time to speak upon time.
Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Ordinarily Speaking, a podcast that celebrates
Speaker 2: resilience in sport. I'm narrowly Meadows. Today's guest is AFL
Speaker 2: star Zach Williams. The former GWS Giant and now Carlton recruit,
Speaker 2: has overcome plenty of adversity in his life. Zach grew
Speaker 2: up in a small town in New South Wales, raised
Speaker 2: by his mum and big sister after they lost his
Speaker 2: dad at a very young age. Last year, Zach made
Speaker 2: the call to leave Sydney and moved to Melbourne to
Speaker 2: join the team he supported as a kid, Carlton. It
Speaker 2: was a lucrative deal that created plenty of headlines, but
Speaker 2: behind the scenes, his family was going through heartache. This
Speaker 2: is a story of a young man who says he
Speaker 2: owes everything to two strong women in his life, and
Speaker 2: now at twenty six, Zach has found his voice as
Speaker 2: a proud Indigenous man. If this chat is triggering for you,
Speaker 2: please ask for help. Lifeline and Beyond Blue are just
Speaker 2: a couple of places you can go. I hope you
Speaker 2: enjoy the chat.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 2: Zaki thanks so much for spending some time with me.
Speaker 2: Tell me about the country town you grew up in,
Speaker 2: because we're talking proper country country town, are we.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for having me on you. But yeah, so
Speaker 1: full country on the river. I think I was not
Speaker 1: too short that the population is now, but when I was,
Speaker 1: there was about two thousand people. When I graduated year
Speaker 1: twelve at my local high school. There was only I
Speaker 1: think just around maybe less than thirty kids, maybe thirty
Speaker 1: kids in my year twelve class, so it was a
Speaker 1: very small party for us after we graduated. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I grew up in a Rendra. It's very close to
Speaker 1: eating where a few of the other boys I played
Speaker 1: football with over my time. I'm from as well, and
Speaker 1: we'll get area if people know where that is. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm being I was up in Sydney for nine years
Speaker 1: and now at you. Sorry, now I'm down in Melbourne.
Speaker 2: So tell me about your indigenous heritage.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'm a gradery man from obviously country as
Speaker 1: well as like I just said, you know, growing up
Speaker 1: indigenous in Dungea, it was a very I guess divided community.
Speaker 1: There was a bit of racism, but you know, I
Speaker 1: didn't really take too much notice to that sort of
Speaker 1: growing up, you used to it and he just brushes
Speaker 1: off you pretty quickly. But then once I got into
Speaker 1: the I guess AFL and sort of saw it on
Speaker 1: a national scale. And now they're a bit more mature,
Speaker 1: sort of hits a lot more now when I think
Speaker 1: back to my time living and growing up in our indra, So,
Speaker 1: you know, I was tough at times. You know, my
Speaker 1: mum is the Aboriginal liaison at the Narranger High School,
Speaker 1: so at the local high school there, so she, you know,
Speaker 1: obviously has a lot of connections with all the families
Speaker 1: Indigenous families back home, so which a lot of my
Speaker 1: family as well, a lot of cousins and stuff like
Speaker 1: that back home. But you know, I was tough growing
Speaker 1: up in a you know, very fifty to fifty indigenous
Speaker 1: non indigenous community, so there was a lot of conflict,
Speaker 1: a lot of disagreements with people's and but you know,
Speaker 1: now that I'm a bit older and hopefully I can
Speaker 1: go back home and help out the community and maybe
Speaker 1: do some stuff, some community work back home and around
Speaker 1: the region to get the awareness out and try and
Speaker 1: stamp out racism.
Speaker 2: What do you know now, that when you reflect, you
Speaker 2: think differently upon now.
Speaker 1: I guess maybe just taking notice of the little slight
Speaker 1: racism comments or little actions that people do, whether they're
Speaker 1: knowingly doing it or not. I think back when I
Speaker 1: was growing up, I didn't take notice. It, Like I said,
Speaker 1: just washes off you pretty quickly and you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: that was a bit racist or whatever, and then you
Speaker 1: just get on with your day or whatever. But now
Speaker 1: that I'm a bit older, and if I hear something
Speaker 1: in the news or you know, there was my teammate now,
Speaker 1: Eddie Betts has obviously gone through a lot of that stuff.
Speaker 1: So even stuff with him and other Indigenous boys in
Speaker 1: the AFL, or when I'm talking to mum about what's
Speaker 1: going on in the community. You know, there's little things
Speaker 1: that are just hit me a lot harder, I guess,
Speaker 1: and make me take more notice about racism back home.
Speaker 2: How does it make you feel when you feel like
Speaker 2: something's racist and it's coming at you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess first initial reactions, I get angry about
Speaker 1: it and a bit frustrated, but it's just turning to more.
Speaker 1: It's sad really, like that it's twenty twenty one and
Speaker 1: there's still a lot of bad racism in Australia, and
Speaker 1: you know, small country towns, obviously it hits a lot,
Speaker 1: a lot harder because it's my home country town where
Speaker 1: I grew up. And obviously it's hard to stamp about
Speaker 1: racism and everyone's got to be on the same page
Speaker 1: and be educated enough to be on the same page.
Speaker 1: But it's just it's really sad to be honest, Like,
Speaker 1: you know, my nieces she's only eight years old and
Speaker 1: she's already caught racism where she's in Aubury. So if
Speaker 1: a little eight year old girls coping racism, then bloody ell,
Speaker 1: you know we haven't. We've gone nowhere over the last
Speaker 1: fifty odds, so you use that. You know, we've actually
Speaker 1: become part of the referendum Indigenous people. So it's just sad.
Speaker 1: It makes me upset more than you know, you want
Speaker 1: to be angry about it and everything, but you know,
Speaker 1: if I get angry about it, then I'm no better
Speaker 1: than the people that are given out the racism. So
Speaker 1: they're auditioning it out. So I just I just feel
Speaker 1: sad to be honest, and hopefully over the next few years,
Speaker 1: while I've sort of you know, on the afhold stage
Speaker 1: and I'm playing down Melbourne. I can sort of do
Speaker 1: a bit more for my community.
Speaker 2: What did your niece cop?
Speaker 1: So they were watching I'm not too sure what the
Speaker 1: movie was, but my sister rang me one day. I'm
Speaker 1: just absolutely human and furious. They were watching a movie,
Speaker 1: you know, about the Stolen Generation. I think it was
Speaker 1: one day in class and you know, one of her
Speaker 1: classmates actually just said, oh right, you should be on
Speaker 1: TV with you know, like go back to where you're
Speaker 1: from and all that kind of stuff. So for young kids,
Speaker 1: she's only seven, eight years old. For young kids already
Speaker 1: know that by that age, it's it's quite disappointing to
Speaker 1: be honest. And like I said before, you know, my
Speaker 1: teammate goes through through a lot of that as well.
Speaker 1: Now in Eddie Bett's like he's copped. It's pretty well
Speaker 1: well documented that he cops a fair bit on the
Speaker 1: national stage. And you know that's two different ages. Like
Speaker 1: there's Eddie who's you know, thirty odd and in his
Speaker 1: back end of his career, and then I got my
Speaker 1: young niece who's eight years old, who's competent at school,
Speaker 1: and you know, these it's not the kids felt that
Speaker 1: this young kid. Don't even know what they're really talking about.
Speaker 1: You know, they're probably just saying it, you know, just
Speaker 1: to try and get on my niece's nerves or you know,
Speaker 1: trying to do something just to make her angry. But
Speaker 1: you know, it's just sad that it's happening to young
Speaker 1: kids like this.
Speaker 2: When you first get the call from your sister about that,
Speaker 2: how do you feel in that moment.
Speaker 1: Oh, you know, obviously I'm not her parent, but I'm
Speaker 1: her uncle, and it makes me want to drive down
Speaker 1: to the school and you know, say what I need
Speaker 1: to say to the school. But obviously platforms like this
Speaker 1: your podcast and talking about it when an Indigenous Round
Speaker 1: comes around, or whether I'm doing interviews and I need
Speaker 1: to speak up on things, it's really important because it's
Speaker 1: obviously still a massive issue in the nation that racism
Speaker 1: is still around. And you know, but I don't think
Speaker 1: people realize how much it actually affects not just the families,
Speaker 1: but everyone, like the whole Indigenous community when people be racist.
Speaker 1: So's just sad. But you know, people just need to
Speaker 1: be educated and they want to have to learn, like
Speaker 1: they don't want to learn. Then it just shows how
Speaker 1: much of arrogance. They got to want to not learn
Speaker 1: about the history of Australia.
Speaker 2: I guess what do you say to your niece? Do
Speaker 2: you talk to her about it?
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, she gets very self conscious about because she's
Speaker 1: fairly dark skin, very she's quite a ten young girl,
Speaker 1: so a lot of people know she's Indigenous just from
Speaker 1: the color of her skin. And then she starts getting
Speaker 1: self conscious about the color of her skin. And I
Speaker 1: just try and reinforce her that she's beautiful with her skin,
Speaker 1: like she shouldn't shy away from being who she is
Speaker 1: and being proud of being Indigenous. And you know, she's
Speaker 1: still quite young, so it's good that she's sort of
Speaker 1: learning to, you know, be comfortable in her skin and
Speaker 1: be comfortable with her culture. And like I said, it's
Speaker 1: just sad that's someone that young's got to cop it,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. So it is quite I
Speaker 1: get quite furious about it, but it's more just sorry
Speaker 1: for people that have to go through it. Like and
Speaker 1: it's obviously personal to me because it's my little Nicks
Speaker 1: And she comes home crying and upset, and you know,
Speaker 1: my sister keeps her home from school the next day
Speaker 1: just because she's worried about going to school. But you know,
Speaker 1: my sister's pretty good at She's a strong black woman,
Speaker 1: so she's pretty good at reinforcing her children that just
Speaker 1: don't worry about what other people say. Obviously, you need
Speaker 1: to speak up for yourself. And it's hard to tell
Speaker 1: and that your old kid. Sort of the circumstances and
Speaker 1: how serious it is that racism is still a thing,
Speaker 1: So it's pretty hard.
Speaker 2: It's so heartbreaking here, isn't it in twenty twenty one
Speaker 2: that we're having this conversation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like you said, it's twenty twenty one and
Speaker 1: it's still a massive issue unless people like Eddie Bett's
Speaker 1: or Adam Good's bring it up. It's sort of it
Speaker 1: just seems like sometimes it gets swept under the carpet.
Speaker 1: And in the AFL there's a massive, massive range of
Speaker 1: multicultural people in the game now and indigenous people. So
Speaker 1: I think that fella doing a good job at the
Speaker 1: moment of educating and doing as much as I can
Speaker 1: to get multiculture and indigenous people's educate people on their cultures.
Speaker 1: But there's always more that people can do. Obviously, if
Speaker 1: there's stuff going on back with my local town with
Speaker 1: my niece and stuff like that. So there's always more
Speaker 1: work to do. But yeah, it's just sad that it's
Speaker 1: still a massive issue.
Speaker 2: You bring up Adam Goods, how did that impact you
Speaker 2: at the time, because you were a young footy player
Speaker 2: trying to make your own way in the game and
Speaker 2: then this situation arises. How did it make you feel
Speaker 2: watching a champion of the game go through what he
Speaker 2: went through as a young Indigenous man yourself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think I was maybe my third year
Speaker 1: in so I was still trying to find my feed.
Speaker 1: I wasn't playing regularly in the AFL team, you know,
Speaker 1: I was still trying to find my way. I guess
Speaker 1: in terms of like being a football player. You know,
Speaker 1: I grew up always knowing that I was Indigenous, and
Speaker 1: I was like proud of being Indigenous, and you know,
Speaker 1: like I said, racism back where I was from, it
Speaker 1: sort of just brushed off you. So when I come
Speaker 1: into the AFOL system, I didn't realize actually how serious
Speaker 1: it was and how bad it actually was around the
Speaker 1: whole nation when it all come out with Goodsy and
Speaker 1: he was going through all that stuff, and I guess,
Speaker 1: like you said, I was still a young bloke still
Speaker 1: trying to find my way, So I didn't speak up
Speaker 1: or anything, which I'm disappointed myself about. But I know
Speaker 1: I was still young. But in these circumstances, doesn't matter
Speaker 1: a young or how old you are, you always your
Speaker 1: opinion matters on this, on this kind of stuff. So
Speaker 1: when I think back on it and about it, and
Speaker 1: I'm disappointed I didn't speak up, But at the same
Speaker 1: time it was sort of all a big shock to
Speaker 1: me as well. But if I had my time again,
Speaker 1: I definitely if something like that happened again, then I'd
Speaker 1: definitely be one of the first to speak up and
Speaker 1: come forward and stick up from you know, my fellow
Speaker 1: teammate or you know, if happened to one of the
Speaker 1: boys and AFL, I will definitely be first first one
Speaker 1: up to stand.
Speaker 2: Up when he was treated the way that he was
Speaker 2: and essentially booed out of the game. When you go
Speaker 2: home at night and think about that at the time,
Speaker 2: does it impact your self image? Does it? You know
Speaker 2: what the country is telling you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just it's a bit of a hard one
Speaker 1: because at the time I didn't really I was never
Speaker 1: taking notice of the booze. I was taking. I was
Speaker 1: actually taking notice of goods he playing because I knew
Speaker 1: that he was back into his career. Growing up, he
Speaker 1: was one of my idols in football, so I've always
Speaker 1: just taking interest in watching him play football because I
Speaker 1: love studying AFL, I love you know, I love studying
Speaker 1: other players, and you know, I love watching goods he played.
Speaker 1: So I didn't really take notice of the booze or
Speaker 1: anything like that until I saw it on the news
Speaker 1: or saw it in the documentary a few years later,
Speaker 1: and just to see the way he was treated. He
Speaker 1: will go down one of the greatest players of the game, like,
Speaker 1: hands down, no matter what other players come in and
Speaker 1: do from now on, he will go down as one
Speaker 1: of the greatest players ever, Like he was an absolute gun.
Speaker 1: And for him to get treated like that and not
Speaker 1: even do the Grand Final drive around and be sent
Speaker 1: off the way you deserve to be sent off, it's
Speaker 1: just I think it's very sad for him and his
Speaker 1: family obviously, but for someone like me, I'd look at
Speaker 1: that and I get so upset that someone like I
Speaker 1: know Goodsy fairly well from my time up in Sydney,
Speaker 1: so to see him go through that, and it just
Speaker 1: makes me feel sad as well. So I hope down
Speaker 1: the track that the AFL do something for him, whether
Speaker 1: it's they put up a statue for him, or get
Speaker 1: him get him to a Grand Final to do a lap,
Speaker 1: or do something for him because he deserves it, because
Speaker 1: the way he was treated was just disgraceful.
Speaker 2: To be honest, Am I right in saying that the
Speaker 2: Indigenous boys all got together and had a conversation about
Speaker 2: it a year or two later and what was how
Speaker 2: it was handled and how you all felt about it?
Speaker 1: Yes, so I think it might have even been a
Speaker 1: year after Goodsy retired that Yeah, you know, all the
Speaker 1: older boys like shawny Berger and Abets, Michael Walter's, all
Speaker 1: these boys stood up at the camp and said, you know,
Speaker 1: it's not good enough from a player's point of view,
Speaker 1: Indigenous players point of view, that we didn't stand up
Speaker 1: and make our voice heard and didn't have his back enough.
Speaker 1: Because I guess that was a perfect opportunity for Indigenous
Speaker 1: players to all come together and make a statement, try
Speaker 1: and stamp out racism and look after Goodsy. If we'd
Speaker 1: done that, it might have turned out a lot differently
Speaker 1: than what it could have than what it actually did. Sorry,
Speaker 1: So yeah, there was a few conversations after it all happened.
Speaker 1: But like I said, I was still a young young
Speaker 1: fellow at the time, So.
Speaker 2: What impact does that have on you as a young bloke?
Speaker 2: Was that a pretty profound conversation to have witnessed.
Speaker 1: It was a very confronting conversation, but it was also
Speaker 1: at the same time it gave me the confidence to
Speaker 1: be able to speak up and have my opinion on
Speaker 1: these issues, because on these issues, my opinion is never
Speaker 1: wrong because I know that my opinion is quite similar
Speaker 1: to Eddie Betsa's opinion and all the indigenous players in
Speaker 1: the competition, we all have the same opinions, so we
Speaker 1: all speak up and which I think over the last
Speaker 1: few years a lot of boys have is so powerful
Speaker 1: when we all do that together. And it was a
Speaker 1: perfect opportunity to do that with the whole Goodsy scenario
Speaker 1: and what happened. But yeah, we just probably didn't do
Speaker 1: quite enough, I don't think.
Speaker 2: Because it's your lived experience.
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. Like I'm sure it's not only just I'm
Speaker 1: sure a lot of the other boys probably feel the
Speaker 1: same way as I do, that they're disappointing themselves that
Speaker 1: they didn't stick up for a brother in the AFL
Speaker 1: competition and in the nation. So because if we've done that,
Speaker 1: I'm sure a lot of things would have been different.
Speaker 2: What's the best thing about being an Indigenous man?
Speaker 1: Best thing probably having skinny, quick legs.
Speaker 2: To be honest, you were going to say family.
Speaker 1: Well, obviously, but like everyone says family, and everyone knows that.
Speaker 1: You know, you grew up over in Wa, so I'm
Speaker 1: sure you know that all the Indigenous firms are quite close.
Speaker 1: The communities are, whether they're related or not. The Indigenous
Speaker 1: people always support each other no matter what in the
Speaker 1: indigenous community. So whether you're family or you're an Indigenous
Speaker 1: person and you know that Indigenous person over there, you
Speaker 1: know that you're going to have their back no matter what.
Speaker 1: And I think the Indigenous cultures, it's obviously built on
Speaker 1: family and that that side of culture.
Speaker 2: But those skinny legs.
Speaker 1: Those skinny legs, And the thing is, I think probably
Speaker 1: most Indigenous people have the quick skinny legs too, So
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure a lot of the other boys would
Speaker 1: be happy with their legs. I reckon, I love it.
Speaker 2: Have you embraced culture more as you've gotten older.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's a That's one thing that I'm definitely trying
Speaker 1: to work on at the moment and get more knowledge
Speaker 1: about when I'm from my tribe, even other tribes. Like
Speaker 1: I live with Bobby Hill for a year and even
Speaker 1: asking him questions about where he's from. And you know,
Speaker 1: he's very close with his family as well, so you know,
Speaker 1: even when his mum would come over, I would ask
Speaker 1: her questions about where they're from. And it's the working
Speaker 1: progress because growing up, I never really I knew I
Speaker 1: was indigenous, and I was proud of that. I'd tell
Speaker 1: everyone I was Indigenous and I'm a black man and whatever.
Speaker 1: But in terms of getting into the culture side of things,
Speaker 1: I never really, I guess, got into that. Yeah, I'd
Speaker 1: never quite embraced it. And now over the last couple
Speaker 1: of years, now that I've matured and you know, I've
Speaker 1: had some things going on in my life over the
Speaker 1: past couple of years, I felt like I'd need a
Speaker 1: bit of that spiritual cultural awareness, I guess to make
Speaker 1: my life and my well being a lot better. And
Speaker 1: I think it's important for everyone to go down that
Speaker 1: path where they're indigenous and not indigenous multicultural to go
Speaker 1: down that spiritual path and you know, you find out
Speaker 1: about yourself a lot more.
Speaker 2: What have you learned that you've you've embraced.
Speaker 1: Just the history, you know, my I've caught up on
Speaker 1: obviously last year in the COVID breakout, I'd caught up
Speaker 1: on zoom calls with like two or three times as
Speaker 1: my cousin, and just learned about past and you know,
Speaker 1: the I guess, the tragedies that have happened around my community.
Speaker 1: It's quite shocking, to be honest, like what I've learned
Speaker 1: about my local community and the way Indigenous people were
Speaker 1: treated like around my area back back in the day.
Speaker 1: But you know that's not just my area. There's a
Speaker 1: lot of other communities that have gone through all of
Speaker 1: that as well, and probably it's probably it's definitely happening
Speaker 1: to this day in local communities that Indigenous people are
Speaker 1: getting treated unfairly. So yeah, just learning the history, I guess.
Speaker 1: So when I when I can speak about this stuff,
Speaker 1: I know what I'm talking about, and I talk with
Speaker 1: a bit of passion when I talk about it too,
Speaker 1: because I know the history. That's why I think it's
Speaker 1: important for everyone to learn and educate themselves on the
Speaker 1: history of Australia, because it's shocking, it's very bad. But
Speaker 1: you learn about it, you move on, you have a discussions,
Speaker 1: you talk about it, acknowledge it, acknowledge it, and then
Speaker 1: everyone heals from there and everyone can get along from there.
Speaker 1: But until people want to do that, then all we
Speaker 1: can do is just learn about our history.
Speaker 2: Tell me about your pop. He was alive around the
Speaker 2: Stolen Generation each, how did that impact his life?
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, look, I haven't talked too much about that
Speaker 1: with him too much, but there's definitely something that I
Speaker 1: want to and probably need to get in touch with
Speaker 1: him about a lot more. But yeah, he was a
Speaker 1: young feller and you know he used to run away
Speaker 1: from the police or the people whoever it was that
Speaker 1: used to come and collect the kids, and you know,
Speaker 1: you'd have to run away and hide and then come
Speaker 1: back home when he could when they'd leave. So if
Speaker 1: you met him now, you wouldn't really you would and
Speaker 1: tell that he's been through all that. Obviously he's an
Speaker 1: old man now, he's just a fun, caring black man
Speaker 1: and you actually wouldn't even think that he had been
Speaker 1: through that, just with how happy he is with his
Speaker 1: life and you know, loves coming over tom Mum's place
Speaker 1: of just randomly showing up, not even telling us and
Speaker 1: showing up, and yeah, to have someone that's been through
Speaker 1: all that, it's probably something Percy I need to tap
Speaker 1: into and learn about a lot more. Like I said,
Speaker 1: if I'm more educated on this stuff, then I can
Speaker 1: go to other people in the community and talk to
Speaker 1: them about Oh this actually this is personal for me
Speaker 1: because he's actually happened to my pop.
Speaker 2: The level of fear that he and his parents must
Speaker 2: have been living.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well even the fear of these days of
Speaker 1: being racially realified is it's scary. So I can't imagine
Speaker 1: what they would have went through back then, going through
Speaker 1: Is there people going to come to my house and
Speaker 1: take me away from my family? Like, I can't imagine
Speaker 1: that absolute fear that he would have through and other
Speaker 1: families as well for that matter. Like there was a
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of kids taken. And that's one
Speaker 1: of the things in Australi's history that people they acknowledge it,
Speaker 1: but they I feel like they don't know enough about it.
Speaker 1: They haven't learned enough about it. Yep, they acknowledged it,
Speaker 1: but you know the scars it's left for a lot
Speaker 1: of people. It's still traumatizing.
Speaker 2: You do a lot of work with Indigenous youth these days,
Speaker 2: don't you tell me a little bit about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Up in Sydney I used to do. Like Western
Speaker 1: Sydney is quite a big population of multiculture and Indigenous people.
Speaker 1: So down here in Melbourne, I haven't really got me
Speaker 1: bearings yet. But once I get sorted and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: I've want to start up a community sort of academy
Speaker 1: back home, whether that's in ner Andro, Wagga Aubrey, just
Speaker 1: to help kids. You know, firstly, I want to help
Speaker 1: the Indigenous kids about the same time, whether it's kids
Speaker 1: that are struggling regardless whether they can come in and
Speaker 1: get some help and find their way as well. Because
Speaker 1: there's not a lot of growing up. There's not a
Speaker 1: lot of opportunity in country New South Wales, in these
Speaker 1: towns unless you know, you have to move away to
Speaker 1: get noticed. If you want to play sport or play football,
Speaker 1: you have to go to a boarding school and come
Speaker 1: down to Melbourne, or go to Sydney or go to
Speaker 1: Canberra for these opportunities. But on a startup something where
Speaker 1: if there's a gun football in football or in Riindra,
Speaker 1: he doesn't have to be taken away from his family
Speaker 1: or has to leave his family to go try and
Speaker 1: make the AFL football. Like, I want there to be
Speaker 1: someone in Wogat for these kids and whether it's helping
Speaker 1: him at school or helping him with sport or anything.
Speaker 1: I want to start up a community academy or something
Speaker 1: like that where just encourages kids to ask for helping
Speaker 1: they know they got the help there to succeed in life.
Speaker 2: Because I feel like the two things that are coming
Speaker 2: across most strongly from you talking about it and you
Speaker 2: speak with such passion, which is amazing. One having people
Speaker 2: like me acknowledge the pain and the history, but two
Speaker 2: for having Indigenous people be proud Yeah yeah, of who
Speaker 2: you are and what you stand for and where you
Speaker 2: come from. Is that a fair summary?
Speaker 1: I guess yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of you know,
Speaker 1: Indigenous people are shy people. You know you might not
Speaker 1: see that you might see because you're watching football and
Speaker 1: you see a lot of the Indigenous boys just absolutely
Speaker 1: turn it on on TV and you think, oh wow.
Speaker 1: But then when the cameras are not on, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of shy boys that are afraid to speak up,
Speaker 1: whether it's you know, they haven't really the same case
Speaker 1: as me. Like growing up, I didn't know enough culturally
Speaker 1: and the about the history, and so it's hard to
Speaker 1: speak up when you don't really know these things. But yeah,
Speaker 1: if you're proud and you want to learn your culture,
Speaker 1: then that's what I'm passionate about, Like just learning. If
Speaker 1: you learn about these things, it's not harming anyone, Like
Speaker 1: you're you're doing better for yourself. And if you get
Speaker 1: caught in the circumstance of whether there's racism or anything
Speaker 1: like that, you're strong enough and your willingness to be
Speaker 1: able to speak up on these things just goes to
Speaker 1: a whole another level. And that's why one of my
Speaker 1: favorite people ever, and even if I didn't know him
Speaker 1: is Eddie Best, because he's so strong on this stuff
Speaker 1: and he's been through so much, but he still keeps
Speaker 1: speaking up about it because he knows that it's his
Speaker 1: job to educate other people about this. And you know,
Speaker 1: he's even educated me. He wants me to speak up
Speaker 1: and talk about these things. So like, not even just
Speaker 1: non indigenous people, it's everyone's got to acknowledge what's happened
Speaker 1: and learn about it and then be strong enough to
Speaker 1: talk about it.
Speaker 2: Tell me the first time he came across Eddie Betts.
Speaker 1: I think it might have been my first ever Indigenous
Speaker 1: camp in Alice Springs. I think I was eighteen or nineteen,
Speaker 1: my first, first or second year, I can't really remember,
Speaker 1: but yeah, that was my first time meeting pretty much
Speaker 1: all of the boys that I looked up to watching footage.
Speaker 2: So I was you're the biggest smelling Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just because now that I never really thought like
Speaker 1: I had to think about it too much, but you know,
Speaker 1: it was the first time I saw Buddy was there,
Speaker 1: Goods he was there, Lindsey Thomas was there, trav Varco
Speaker 1: was there, like it was just all these older boys
Speaker 1: I used to watch and they all played in Grand
Speaker 1: finals at the time, like when I was growing up.
Speaker 1: So I was like, holy ship, Like I'm actually sharing.
Speaker 1: It's crazy. I know it's crazy because Travor I've roomed
Speaker 1: with Trevor Varco and I don't even know if he
Speaker 1: remembers this, but he I think he was coming off
Speaker 1: a Grand Final with Geelong a few years prior, and
Speaker 1: I was just like like I'm brooming with Holy shit,
Speaker 1: I'm rooming with him right now. Like, but just to
Speaker 1: see these boys up. No, I wasn't like that. I
Speaker 1: was definitely not like that. I wasn't. Yeah, but Eddie
Speaker 1: obviously I would grow up going for Coulton, and that's
Speaker 1: when Eddie was kicking amazing goals and killing it for Coulton.
Speaker 1: So to see Eddie like it was once in a
Speaker 1: lifetime thing for me. I was just like shit like,
Speaker 1: because I didn't know I was going to end up
Speaker 1: a Culton. So when I was there, I was like, shit, like,
Speaker 1: I'll better take this in because I don't know what
Speaker 1: I'm going to see him again, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: And then yeah, I was just having to finally be
Speaker 1: down here and play for Colon. Then he's bed teammates.
Speaker 1: It's crazy, it's so crazy, so crazy.
Speaker 2: It's fair to say he tried to recruit you last
Speaker 2: year too.
Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, during the game, like I was playing
Speaker 1: on Zach Fisher, I was playing half back at the time,
Speaker 1: and me and Zaki Fisher would be up and Eddie
Speaker 1: would be standing behind me and I'd just hear Eddie
Speaker 1: chirping and I'd be like what's he what's he saying?
Speaker 1: I'll turn around. He's like, yeah, I'm talking to you,
Speaker 1: like I better see you next year. I'm like, Eddie,
Speaker 1: I'm trying to focus on playing and beating you guys here.
Speaker 1: Don't talk to me like. But you know, it's all
Speaker 1: fun and games. And he's always he's I've never seen
Speaker 1: him not happy, Edie. He's always got a big smile
Speaker 1: on his face. And you know, I'm actually stoked on
Speaker 1: his teammate. And you know, I think it's pretty well
Speaker 1: documented from the cult media that I think they went
Speaker 1: to my school teacher when I was in high school
Speaker 1: or no, back in primary school maybe I can't remember.
Speaker 1: And I was kicking a football by myself or something,
Speaker 1: just waiting for class or something to start, and I
Speaker 1: was talking about Eddie Betts kicking me to the football
Speaker 1: and I'd get it and I would kick a goal
Speaker 1: and I'd be in a Grand Final. And you know,
Speaker 1: so hopefully that's all true. Hopefully I have the next
Speaker 1: well this year, I don't know how a lot much
Speaker 1: longer Edie will play, but you know, if we make
Speaker 1: it this year, Eddie, you better give me that handball,
Speaker 1: mate and kick a win and go in the Grand Final.
Speaker 1: But it's just it's so surreal meeting people like that,
Speaker 1: not only from the football people like you know, like
Speaker 1: I said before, the culture. So I think too, like
Speaker 1: he's someone him and goods of people that I look
Speaker 1: up to, and I want to be like when I'm
Speaker 1: at the end of my career, I want to look
Speaker 1: back in my career and be like, Yeah, I spoke up,
Speaker 1: I've done this. I've done that for my indigenous culture,
Speaker 1: and I helped a lot of kids out coming through
Speaker 1: and I helped a lot of other people speak up
Speaker 1: as well. So you know, if I can get to
Speaker 1: that stage of where they are, I'm going the right
Speaker 1: way in life.
Speaker 2: Really, you mentioned it before that Eddie's obviously copped a lot,
Speaker 2: particularly on social media over the years. Have you copped
Speaker 2: that sort of stuff?
Speaker 1: No, I haven't, But you know, when you know, Leem
Speaker 1: Ryan and Eddie Betts and all these guys are copying it,
Speaker 1: like it's it's not just those boys that suffer. It's
Speaker 1: like the other Indigenous players get furious about it, like
Speaker 1: other players get absolutely fired up about it, and it hurts.
Speaker 1: It hurts, But it's not only that, Like you feel
Speaker 1: for Eddie's family, Like Eddie's got five kids now and
Speaker 1: his family and Goodsy's family, like I can't imagine what
Speaker 1: you know, all of his kids are really young, so
Speaker 1: like Eddie's kids are young, so they probably know the
Speaker 1: extent of what's going on. But when they grow up
Speaker 1: and they look back on what their dad went through,
Speaker 1: like holy shit, Like it's you don't want your kids
Speaker 1: to know that your family went through that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: As long as we and I know Eddie won't stop,
Speaker 1: I keep speaking up on these things and talking about
Speaker 1: these things and bringing it up and putting people that
Speaker 1: are being racist in the spotlight, then it's only going
Speaker 1: to be better in the long run.
Speaker 2: Are you in awe of him and the strength?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Like it was first it was always the footy
Speaker 1: side of things, but now it's now that I'm a
Speaker 1: lot mature, and you know, my sister's got three kids
Speaker 1: and with my niece gone through that kind of stuff
Speaker 1: at school, Like it's to look up to, Yeah, to
Speaker 1: look up to Eddie and the way he goes about
Speaker 1: being racially vialified. I do. He's He's one of my
Speaker 1: idols in outside of football, in this aspect as well.
Speaker 2: You're listening to ordinarily speaking with Zach Williams. I want
Speaker 2: to talk a little bit about your upbringing. Tell me
Speaker 2: about your dad.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so my dad passed away in two thousand and
Speaker 1: I was six. My sister was turning thirteen, just going
Speaker 1: into high school. You know, obviously my sister had a
Speaker 1: lot more memories than I do. I was still fairly young.
Speaker 1: But from what I can remember, you know, he was
Speaker 1: a rugby man. He was a rugby league man, so
Speaker 1: but from what I've heard, he was pretty good at
Speaker 1: It's pretty handy at AFL as well when he was
Speaker 1: playing in foods local like Nrandre Eagles, so he's quite handy.
Speaker 1: But for some unknown Shane reads and Mum always tells
Speaker 1: me that she tried to sign me up for rugby
Speaker 1: and he put me into I was kicked. So I
Speaker 1: don't know if this was the plan the whole time
Speaker 1: to get me here to where I am today. But
Speaker 1: he knew something, that's what mum said. Mum said, he
Speaker 1: knew something. But you know I used to I still
Speaker 1: got memories of going to I was kick with him
Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff. But now that I
Speaker 1: look back on it, I feel for I have a
Speaker 1: lot more feeling for my sister and my mother because
Speaker 1: you know, that was Mum's partner. My sister was going
Speaker 1: through a stage going into high school, you know, probably
Speaker 1: going through other issues becoming a woman and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: you know, and for her dad to be taken away
Speaker 1: as quick as he did, as quick as it happened, then,
Speaker 1: you know, I sort of sit back and think, you know,
Speaker 1: I sort of got sheltered from that because I was
Speaker 1: so young. I had these two women shelter me from
Speaker 1: all these So I sort of feel this is why
Speaker 1: I love my mom and my sister so much. And
Speaker 1: no matter what interview I do, and I matter what
Speaker 1: media stuff, I'd always mention those two, those two women
Speaker 1: in my life. And my mum and I mates now
Speaker 1: we're like, she's a lad, so we're like we're like
Speaker 1: best mates. And my sister's the mother figure. It's quite funny.
Speaker 1: Every time I go home and I have big with
Speaker 1: Ma Matt my sister's house, my sister, you know, wants
Speaker 1: to kick us out because we're carrying on my pool chops,
Speaker 1: you know, my mom and I. So this is the
Speaker 1: mother figure in the household now, which is so funny
Speaker 1: to me, but yeah, it was quite tough growing up
Speaker 1: without a dad, going through being a teenager and then
Speaker 1: doing all this stuff. He was a cult man as well.
Speaker 1: So in fact I'm here now and you know, and
Speaker 1: he's not here. It's sort of hits home pretty hard.
Speaker 1: But I got mum, got my sister, got my sister's kids,
Speaker 1: and got the people I need here. So it is tough,
Speaker 1: but we've got by.
Speaker 2: Is it true that you write Dad on your wrists
Speaker 2: every game?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I get emotionally, but I didn't know You're
Speaker 1: going to bring How do you know that? That's crazy,
Speaker 1: That's that's so crazy. But yeah, every I've done it,
Speaker 1: from my very first game against Gold Coast when I
Speaker 1: first come into the league till now. Yeah, I still
Speaker 1: do it. And his favorite number six, so I'm wearing
Speaker 1: number six. Thanks Kate Simpson for that, but but yeah,
Speaker 1: it's still his home. I put dad number six on
Speaker 1: my wrist. And you know, obviously football is not perfect
Speaker 1: when you're playing it, and you go through some hard
Speaker 1: times on the on the field in the game. But
Speaker 1: every time I'm struggling or I'm not playing the way
Speaker 1: I want to, part, just look at that and gets
Speaker 1: me gone again. How did you die from anemonia? Happened
Speaker 1: pretty quickly, Yeah, just I think he got misdiagnosed with asthma,
Speaker 1: and then yeah, just he had pneumonia. And then by
Speaker 1: the time they realized that it was pneumonia in his
Speaker 1: lungs and all that kind of stuff, it was, it
Speaker 1: was too late, and it just happened fairly quickly, to
Speaker 1: be honest.
Speaker 2: You have some memories of that time coming home from school.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was quite quite scary, you know, coming home
Speaker 1: and the I think it was the asthma machine, like,
Speaker 1: it was quite loud, and I didn't know what was
Speaker 1: going on, so I thought, you know, I was just
Speaker 1: doing that to get better, and then never got better.
Speaker 1: And then I remember being at the hospital, remember walking
Speaker 1: into the room when he had this scary ass mask
Speaker 1: on his face, like you, I mean, like to try
Speaker 1: and help him breathe and all that because they thought
Speaker 1: it was something else when it was in fact ammonia.
Speaker 1: But quite traumatizing.
Speaker 2: How does it shape a young man when you lose
Speaker 2: your dad that early? What impact did it have on
Speaker 2: your life? Do you think.
Speaker 1: I think, you know, I wouldn't change anything because my
Speaker 1: Mum and my sister. They raised me the right way
Speaker 1: with I'm respectful to people, like treat people the way
Speaker 1: I want to be treated. But you know, there's always
Speaker 1: things growing up, like you know, my birthdays like eighteenth,
Speaker 1: twenty first, or whether I was hitting high school or
Speaker 1: making state teams or anything like that. You know, it
Speaker 1: is hard and I think back that, you know, Mum
Speaker 1: did struggle doing it by herself in terms of because
Speaker 1: I was quite a sporty kid, paying for basketball, paying
Speaker 1: for football, paying for soccer, playing for school staff. Like
Speaker 1: it just it got to the point where I was
Speaker 1: just doing too much. I had to choose one sport
Speaker 1: and I chose AFL. And you know, maybe if Dad
Speaker 1: was around, I could have been doing a lot more
Speaker 1: different sports or whatever. But like like anything, you want,
Speaker 1: you you want your parents and you want your family
Speaker 1: around to be at milestones in your life. And I've
Speaker 1: had a quite a fair few milestones in terms of
Speaker 1: making my first state team growing up, and then getting
Speaker 1: MVP for New South Wales under eighteens, and then being drafted,
Speaker 1: going to the Giants, moving to the Giants, and you know,
Speaker 1: for example, when I've done my Achilles, like not having
Speaker 1: like mum, Mum can't trade away. Mum was absolutely star
Speaker 1: during my Achilles red hat, but you know the fact
Speaker 1: that she had to do it all by herself, and
Speaker 1: if I just had another sort of shoulder to lene
Speaker 1: and you know, would have obviously would have been a
Speaker 1: lot better. But like I said, I wouldn't change anything.
Speaker 1: My mum's been and my sister has been absolute rock
Speaker 1: stars in the way they've gone about it and the
Speaker 1: way they've raised me and the way that my sister's
Speaker 1: raising her kids now, absolute superstars. So tough, but like
Speaker 1: I said, I wouldn't change anything.
Speaker 2: It must have been so tough for your mum grieving
Speaker 2: the sudden loss of your dad and raising two kids,
Speaker 2: and like you say, the financial stress as well, that
Speaker 2: it's so much for her.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's I sort of took all of that for
Speaker 1: granted when I was at home, because I didn't realize
Speaker 1: the extent and how much pressure she was under and
Speaker 1: how much strainer would have taken for her to raise
Speaker 1: two kids and being able to pay for this and
Speaker 1: that and pay the bills and having to work long
Speaker 1: hours at a job and everything like that. But you know,
Speaker 1: when dad passed away, Mum went, you know, through some stuff.
Speaker 1: My sister at a young age had to step up
Speaker 1: and help out a lot in terms of raising me
Speaker 1: and getting me to ton from school and helping mom
Speaker 1: out with the groceries or you know, helping around the
Speaker 1: house or whatever. So you know, there was times where
Speaker 1: my sister had to look after me, if like mother figure.
Speaker 1: So I think that's why my sister and I are
Speaker 1: fairly close. To be honest, I don't I don't blame
Speaker 1: Mom for any of that because now when I look back,
Speaker 1: it's it's fucking hard. It would have been hard for
Speaker 1: her to lose her partner, and then she's got a
Speaker 1: six year old kid and a young woman that's going
Speaker 1: into high school. Like Jesus Christ, she would have been
Speaker 1: going through some stuff. So all the stuff that she
Speaker 1: had to dealt with mentally, I don't blame her one
Speaker 1: bit for it, because I would have would have been
Speaker 1: tough for anyone going through that circumstance and that situation.
Speaker 1: So yeah, two strong women in my life and love them,
Speaker 1: love them to death.
Speaker 2: Sound pretty proud of him?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Oh, I'll tell you what. Everything that I've accomplished
Speaker 1: in my life now, and I've always said if I
Speaker 1: could give my contract to those women, I would give
Speaker 1: it to them and I'll just play footy. I'll just
Speaker 1: give them all that I have and I'll just play footy.
Speaker 1: But obviously it doesn't work like that. So but now
Speaker 1: that I'm down Melbourne's a lot closer to them, and
Speaker 1: no doubt they'll probably be down here every bloody weekend.
Speaker 1: Won't be able to get rid of them. But yeah,
Speaker 1: everything to them really fair to.
Speaker 2: Say you were a bit of a rascal. What kind
Speaker 2: of words do you want to use?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess, you know, I did take advantage of
Speaker 1: the fact that, you know, my sister moved, you know,
Speaker 1: found her partner, and she moved out quite young and
Speaker 1: had her oldest quite young. So sort of took advantage
Speaker 1: of sneaking out when I was supposed to on school nights,
Speaker 1: or going to parties all weekend and not telling mom,
Speaker 1: and you know, just doing doing dumb shit really like
Speaker 1: drinking obviously going to parties. You know, there was a
Speaker 1: period of time there where I got sucked into smoking
Speaker 1: weed when I was like fifteen, and I was just
Speaker 1: doing dumb shit like that, And I guess I was
Speaker 1: taking advantage of the fact that Mum was a single mom,
Speaker 1: and I didn't realize how much stuff she was ying
Speaker 1: through because I was just oblivious, because I was just
Speaker 1: being a little shitted and I just wasn't worried about
Speaker 1: that having to put up with a sixteen year old
Speaker 1: boy in trying to get him to school high school.
Speaker 1: He's not listening to you. He's going out drinking every weekend,
Speaker 1: smoking like and not having a father to kick him
Speaker 1: up the backside, you know what I mean. Like, it's
Speaker 1: it's probably got to the extent where Mum would yell
Speaker 1: on screen, but I would just brush it off. It
Speaker 1: wouldn't even affect me. So it got to the point where,
Speaker 1: you know, my sister. I was shit scared of my
Speaker 1: sister because she's not afraid to throw a punch if
Speaker 1: I should say so. She threatened me a few times
Speaker 1: and like pull your head in and I'm gonna come
Speaker 1: over there and I'll give it to you, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. So, so it was probably a good
Speaker 1: thing that I had someone like her and her partner
Speaker 1: that I was quite scared of in terms of like
Speaker 1: a bit of fear exactly. So it made me think
Speaker 1: twice of the some of the things I would do,
Speaker 1: but you know, it's I think every teenage boy goes through.
Speaker 1: That's that sort of segum stance. But I think I
Speaker 1: took a lot more advantage of it because I only
Speaker 1: had Mum at home and I knew you got to
Speaker 1: the point where she couldn't control me because I was
Speaker 1: becoming a young man. I just took advantage of it,
Speaker 1: to be honest. But now I look back at it,
Speaker 1: I'm just like, you fucking idiot, what are you doing?
Speaker 1: You know what I mean?
Speaker 2: So, is there is there any one moment that you
Speaker 2: look back and you're particularly ashamed.
Speaker 1: Or definitely it's definitely the smoking. I think, you know,
Speaker 1: I grew up around it, and there was a lot
Speaker 1: of people back in my community, like Feemily doing it,
Speaker 1: and you know, when Dad passed away, Mum started doing
Speaker 1: it as well. So I was around a lot of it.
Speaker 1: And Mum stopped doing it, like she obviously she went
Speaker 1: down a road that she didn't want to go to,
Speaker 1: so when she found a way back, she stopped smoking
Speaker 1: and everything like that.
Speaker 2: But as far as mental health goal.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I knew I could see it firsthand that
Speaker 1: other people were doing it, and I didn't want to be.
Speaker 1: I would always say that I didn't want to be
Speaker 1: that kid, and I just got sucked into it. And yeah,
Speaker 1: there's that. And obviously I always regret taking advantage of Mum,
Speaker 1: so which is which is hard thing to say because
Speaker 1: you know now now who I am today. I love
Speaker 1: Mom to death. Like like I said, we're like best
Speaker 1: mates now, you know what I mean. So when I
Speaker 1: look back, I'm just like, you an idiot? What were
Speaker 1: you doing? Like why would you treat your mother like that?
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Like when she's yelling and screaming,
Speaker 1: I should have pulled my head inline got back into gear,
Speaker 1: gonna rocked up the school on time or whatever. Like
Speaker 1: they got to the point where Mum would just wake
Speaker 1: up for work, wake me up, and then she'd because
Speaker 1: she worked at the high school, she'd drive to work
Speaker 1: early just because she's a teacher there and had to
Speaker 1: look after other kids. I'll go back to bed and
Speaker 1: go to sleep, you know what I mean. Just little
Speaker 1: things like that, like.
Speaker 2: And your poor mums at the school at school show you.
Speaker 1: Know what I mean. Like, and she had a like
Speaker 1: obviously had a good reputation, and I was letting her
Speaker 1: down as her son and just like sort of like
Speaker 1: she couldn't get her backyard clean, then how could she
Speaker 1: go to school and tell other kids what to do.
Speaker 1: So little things like that that I regret, but we
Speaker 1: all live and learn. I guess.
Speaker 2: Is it fair to say that because you didn't get
Speaker 2: picked up in the national draft you were rookie, rookie
Speaker 2: listed and late in the rookie draft. Is it fair
Speaker 2: to say that you think some of your off field
Speaker 2: stuff maybe impacted your AFL career in that sense.
Speaker 1: I think the main thing that impacted me was I
Speaker 1: went to boarding school in Aubrey and I only lasted
Speaker 1: twelve months and I went back home to finish school.
Speaker 1: So I knew if I stayed in Aubrey, I knew
Speaker 1: I wasn't going to finish school. So what was that?
Speaker 1: I just I didn't like it. Yeah, just I don't
Speaker 1: know if it was home sick. I think it was homesick.
Speaker 1: But it was the first time I moved away from
Speaker 1: marm and moved away from home, so it was quite tough.
Speaker 1: And I just couldn't get into the groove of being
Speaker 1: at boarding school and doing the studying and putting time
Speaker 1: into study, and on top of that I was driving
Speaker 1: down to when you're at it for Murray Bush Range
Speaker 1: training every week. So it was quite it's quite daunting
Speaker 1: for me to one move away from home, but then
Speaker 1: to have all this stuff on my plate at the
Speaker 1: one time I wasn't used to. So I went back home,
Speaker 1: finished year twelve, and then the draft come around. And
Speaker 1: you know, during my year twelve year, I just should
Speaker 1: have listened more in school in my year twelve year,
Speaker 1: done better at school. But in school, yeah, exactly, do
Speaker 1: better in school in year twelve, but done the eighteens
Speaker 1: camp with the REMS. I was the MVP. I got
Speaker 1: invited to the national combine. I was the only one
Speaker 1: from New South where I was invited. You know, tested,
Speaker 1: met with met with like eight teams, so I think
Speaker 1: it was and done the interviews, which is scary as hell.
Speaker 1: I'd love to do them interviews now. I think I'd
Speaker 1: do a lot better. But yeah, you know, I thought
Speaker 1: I was actually quite a good chance. And you know,
Speaker 1: all these teams were gave me some pretty good signs,
Speaker 1: but I was probably just oblivious as a seventeen eighteen
Speaker 1: year old kid, and then I thought I was a
Speaker 1: good chance. He get drafted, didn't. I didn't get drafted
Speaker 1: in national Draft, and I think that's because teams saw
Speaker 1: that I got homesick and they probably got worried that
Speaker 1: I was gonna only last few years and then go
Speaker 1: back home, which fucking infuriates me. It makes me so
Speaker 1: angry because a lot of boys that you know, come
Speaker 1: through the draft where they're from Wa South Australia, no
Speaker 1: matter where they're from, if they get drafted a team.
Speaker 1: There's been so many cases where even at the Giants,
Speaker 1: I know a lot of boys that got homesick and
Speaker 1: come home. So they left the Giants and come home
Speaker 1: and they still went and top pixel, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. So I still keep a little chip on
Speaker 1: my shoulder, like on my shoulder with that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: But I think that affected my getting draft as well,
Speaker 1: the homesickness, and I was devastated. I was absolutely shattered.
Speaker 1: And then the next day after the draft, Lucky Buzzard,
Speaker 1: the academy recruit at the time, he run all the
Speaker 1: the Giants academies around the regional areas and bring me up,
Speaker 1: said if you want to get on a list, we
Speaker 1: come train with us for I think it was four
Speaker 1: weeks or something like that and try and get you
Speaker 1: on aie rookie spot list. And I was training. I
Speaker 1: was training fairly hard. I think when I first got
Speaker 1: up there, I was living at the top of a
Speaker 1: pub in a room until I could get into living
Speaker 1: with the welfare Craig Lambert and the Lamberts at the time,
Speaker 1: so I went from the pub into their oldest daughter, Briley.
Speaker 1: She's my age, so she was away at the time,
Speaker 1: so I moved into her room to the welfare people's
Speaker 1: house for like a month and a half. So I
Speaker 1: was literally living out of a backpack pretty much for
Speaker 1: two months until the draft came. And then you know,
Speaker 1: Sheeds and I think there was a few people at
Speaker 1: the club at the time that didn't want to put
Speaker 1: me on the rookie list. But fortunately I was training
Speaker 1: fairly hard, and I think Sheeds and a few others,
Speaker 1: Gabby Allen and craiglar but it saw the potential that
Speaker 1: I had and they just end up checking on the
Speaker 1: rookie rookie list. And I think I went the last
Speaker 1: pick in the rookie here draft, I think. So, you know,
Speaker 1: it's little little things like that I keep in the
Speaker 1: back of my mind. And you know I always have
Speaker 1: this I'm going to prove you wrong mentality, and which
Speaker 1: is you know, coming down here, there's to Melbourne. There's
Speaker 1: obviously the media down here is a lot bigger and
Speaker 1: a lot more upfront than it is in Sydney. So
Speaker 1: you know, I'm in the spotlight now and they love
Speaker 1: it because if you got something to say about me,
Speaker 1: I hope you got the same energy when I come
Speaker 1: out and prove to you what I'm about, so you
Speaker 1: get physically I'm getting bit sweaty talking about this, but
Speaker 1: like I said, like that's what drives me, Like I
Speaker 1: love I love thinking back in those moments and just
Speaker 1: proving to people like you should have picked me up,
Speaker 1: you should have done this, Like I know my worthy.
Speaker 1: Why couldn't you see it? But at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, like I said, like by the time my
Speaker 1: career is over and done with, I'll be happy with
Speaker 1: the footy side of things. I have no doubt. I'm
Speaker 1: quite confident in what I can do and my ability
Speaker 1: and what I can do to help my teammates to
Speaker 1: get to where we need to be. So yeah, it
Speaker 1: gets me fired up a little bit when I talk
Speaker 1: about it. But it's all part of it, really, it's
Speaker 1: all part of it.
Speaker 2: Last year, tell me about the phone call when you
Speaker 2: found out about your sister.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so my sister had got diagnosed with cancer and
Speaker 1: I'm quite furious with her because she didn't tell me
Speaker 1: straight away. So if you listen to this, Smith, I'm
Speaker 1: not happy about that.
Speaker 2: But is she trying to protect you?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I think, like I said, she's like a mother
Speaker 1: figure as well. So I've really I've got two mums
Speaker 1: in my life. So it was quite quite hard to
Speaker 1: get that phone call because you know, I knew that
Speaker 1: this was a contract year. I knew footy. I needed
Speaker 1: to play well in footy. I needed to do what
Speaker 1: I need to do to set myself up, and then
Speaker 1: for this to happen just sort of almost a spender
Speaker 1: in the works early days and then that might hamstring
Speaker 1: as well. Like a week after I found out, so
Speaker 1: I knew I was missing the first couple of rounds
Speaker 1: of the year, and I was like, fuck sake, like
Speaker 1: Smith has gone through this. I can't go see her
Speaker 1: because like obviously COVID reasons, and you know, I need
Speaker 1: to be playing footy. I need to be at the
Speaker 1: club to get my contract year. It's a big year.
Speaker 1: I need to make sure I'm doing everything I can
Speaker 1: to set myself up so I know that I can
Speaker 1: help them out in the future. But at the time,
Speaker 1: all I want to do was just go home because
Speaker 1: I was injured. I got the phone call from her,
Speaker 1: and all I want to do was just go down
Speaker 1: and support her and be around her. But at the
Speaker 1: same time, I knew there was a risk with me
Speaker 1: going home, like she was getting chemo and doing all
Speaker 1: the treatment stuff. So I happened to have COVID and
Speaker 1: I went back and she got it. It probably would
Speaker 1: have affected her a lot more in a way than
Speaker 1: what it does other people get people that have gone
Speaker 1: through COVID. Yeah, it was tough. It was fucking tough
Speaker 1: going through that, but it was just and it was
Speaker 1: hard because we went into the I think we were
Speaker 1: into lockdown, like away, like into the hub. Sorry, it
Speaker 1: was a very stressful time. But yeah, she's all healthy now,
Speaker 1: she's getting back on track, and yeah she's she's in
Speaker 1: a happy spot at the moment, which is good.
Speaker 2: How'd you feel when you hear that news for her?
Speaker 2: I imagine it goes from you know, feeling like she's
Speaker 2: the mother figure, as you describe it to all of
Speaker 2: a sudden wanting to protect her.
Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, it was. It was tough because our
Speaker 1: dad passed away when he was fairly young. Well I
Speaker 1: think he was twenty eight, twenty nine, so I think
Speaker 1: she was thirty one thirty thirty one last year, so
Speaker 1: she's still very young. And she's got three beautiful kids.
Speaker 1: She had a husband. One. Mine went to shit, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna lose someone at a young age again, and these
Speaker 1: like my sister's kids are going to lose one of
Speaker 1: their parents at a young age like I did. I
Speaker 1: was like, shit, like this is just just it was scary.
Speaker 1: It was very scary. But you know, there was a
Speaker 1: couple of weeks there when I was down in the
Speaker 1: dance and I was I think she what she needed
Speaker 1: for me was just to be positive and be strong.
Speaker 1: So my whole attitude just changed, and I told her, like,
Speaker 1: we'll get through this, Like she's a very strong woman,
Speaker 1: she'll be fine, she'll get through it. Just make sure
Speaker 1: she's doing all the right things at home and getting
Speaker 1: the treatments that she needs to get. And if she's
Speaker 1: doing that, then you know, we got some looking up
Speaker 1: over us. So you'll be fine. I said, you'll get
Speaker 1: through it, and she did, and she's all healthy and
Speaker 1: all the kids are healthy, and yeah, so we're in
Speaker 1: a really good spot at the moment.
Speaker 2: What kind of cancer was that?
Speaker 1: Ovarian cancer? The doctor said, you got something on your
Speaker 1: over it. You got a lump or cancer there, and
Speaker 1: he goes, you need to within the next twenty four
Speaker 1: to forty eight hours, you need to go get it checked.
Speaker 1: You need to go get a blood test. You need
Speaker 1: to get it checked because if you don't, it could
Speaker 1: be fatal. And you know, she it's quite a scary
Speaker 1: time when people in your family go through stuff like that.
Speaker 1: Like everyone's got stories like that and their families and hardships,
Speaker 1: but you don't really you know, you hear about people
Speaker 1: and you're like, oh shit, that's that sucks, but until
Speaker 1: you actually go through it, you don't realize actually how
Speaker 1: tough it is for people to go through stuff like that.
Speaker 1: So it was a very daunting time. But like I said,
Speaker 1: I knew that she was going to get through it.
Speaker 1: She was a strong she's a strong young black woman.
Speaker 1: So and yeah, she's all healthy now, which is good.
Speaker 2: The word cancer hits you, doesn't it when you hear it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it scares of shit out of you because it's
Speaker 1: obviously very well known cancer around the world. So you know,
Speaker 1: as soon as you hear that in any form of discussion,
Speaker 1: it's quite scary.
Speaker 2: Knocks the window. Ay, Yeah, so she was getting she
Speaker 2: lives in Aubrey, but she was getting treatment in Melbourne.
Speaker 2: Was that part of the reason why you wanted to
Speaker 2: head back to Melbourne?
Speaker 1: Yeah? You know I was in the Hub and you
Speaker 1: know she was going back and forth to Melbourne a
Speaker 1: few times. You know. For me, I was thinking, shit,
Speaker 1: I should be there. If I was in Melbourne, she
Speaker 1: could just live. She could be living at my house
Speaker 1: now and not having to drive back and forth. Like
Speaker 1: I can't imagine what it was like to go get
Speaker 1: the treatment and then having to drive home or having
Speaker 1: to stay the night in the hotel, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. So, and the kids were going through school,
Speaker 1: you know, like, so her husband couldn't really come with her,
Speaker 1: so it was quite it would have been a tough
Speaker 1: time for her and for me it was just if
Speaker 1: she had somewhere to stay, it would have been so
Speaker 1: much more convenient for everyone and the whole family. So
Speaker 1: that was the main reason for me to move away
Speaker 1: from the Giants. It was a hard decision because I've
Speaker 1: they gave him an opportunity. I grew up, I've become
Speaker 1: a man there, grew up with a lot of the
Speaker 1: boys there, become men with a lot of boys there.
Speaker 1: I was close to a lot of the staff there,
Speaker 1: the coaches, leon, you know, I was close with everyone involved.
Speaker 1: So it was a tough decision. But you know, people
Speaker 1: always speculate, you know, the contract side of things and
Speaker 1: all that kind of Oh that's why he left, and
Speaker 1: I was whether I was going to get a bag
Speaker 1: of chips in my contract. I was coming downy anyways,
Speaker 1: because for me, I've been away from my family for
Speaker 1: too long and for that to happen too, my sister
Speaker 1: and may not be here. That was the deciding factor
Speaker 1: for me to come down here.
Speaker 2: When people it's fascinating to me though, the financial thing,
Speaker 2: and you obviously get quite upset about people saying it
Speaker 2: was a financial decision. But the way that I see
Speaker 2: it from the outside is that a financial decision for
Speaker 2: you is also about looking after your family. Because if
Speaker 2: you've grown up in a situation where you didn't have
Speaker 2: a heap. I'd imagine that part of the motivation for
Speaker 2: you is looking after your mum and your sister and
Speaker 2: your family in the long run. Is that fair?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Even when I got my first bloody page as
Speaker 1: an eighteen year old and I was playing for the Giants,
Speaker 1: I gave half of it to month for me to
Speaker 1: get my contract in be sorted. I've not only set
Speaker 1: myself up for life half a footy, but I'm setting
Speaker 1: my family up as well. So like you said, you know,
Speaker 1: growing up with not much is a driving factor for
Speaker 1: me because it means I can support my family as well.
Speaker 1: Like the money, Like my contract's not just for me.
Speaker 1: Like if I could put my mum and sis's name
Speaker 1: on the contract, I would, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: I'd get them to sign it as well.
Speaker 2: But you've bought your sister a house, is that right?
Speaker 1: Yeah? So I bought my sister a house in Aubury.
Speaker 1: Yeah so in Thiguna. Well it was actually quite crazy
Speaker 1: because I've bought the house, but I never saw the
Speaker 1: house and my sister I said, go find a house
Speaker 1: that you want. You know, I've saved up me money.
Speaker 1: I'm ready to buy a family house now for you guys,
Speaker 1: And she went and found one and then went through
Speaker 1: bought it and everything. They moved in, and it would
Speaker 1: have been maybe six months to a year twelve that
Speaker 1: I actually finally saw it. I saw it through FaceTime
Speaker 1: with the kids and everything like that, but once I
Speaker 1: showed up to the house, it was more surreal that,
Speaker 1: holy shit, this is out, like we finally we finally
Speaker 1: own a house, like our family finally owned something that's ours.
Speaker 1: And it was one of the best feelings. And you know,
Speaker 1: my sister will always every time home, she will thank
Speaker 1: me for the house and all that kind of stuff,
Speaker 1: but I tell her that she doesn't need to thank me,
Speaker 1: like always say thank you to her for the way
Speaker 1: she's brought me up and been on my mass when
Speaker 1: I'm playing up and I'm actually still scared of her
Speaker 1: to this day, to be honest. So it was quite
Speaker 1: a fulfilling thing. But you know, I want to get
Speaker 1: to the stage where I got my sister a house.
Speaker 1: I got my house, and I got Mum's house. So
Speaker 1: once that, my job's not done yet in terms of
Speaker 1: the family side of things and getting Mum and my
Speaker 1: sisters sordered. So I still got a bit to do.
Speaker 2: You've made me to her up with us. It's my bad,
Speaker 2: but that's just the picture that you paint of walking
Speaker 2: into that house, and they're just the overwhelming sense of
Speaker 2: pride of I did this.
Speaker 1: That's probably my biggest thing, perhaps moment in my life,
Speaker 1: is when I could buy a house for them. Like
Speaker 1: always sit down with Psmith and say, this is what
Speaker 1: I want your kids and my kids one day to
Speaker 1: grow up and know that they can own a house,
Speaker 1: they can own a car, they can do these things.
Speaker 1: And because growing up I never thought about own my
Speaker 1: own house or owning anything, to be honest, always just
Speaker 1: thought money. Oh yep, money I got in my pocket.
Speaker 1: That's fine, that's all I need. But now that I've
Speaker 1: grown up like owning that it's mine. It changes your
Speaker 1: whole aspect of life. Really.
Speaker 2: So my final question is you're still only twenty six,
Speaker 2: You're still young. If you heard your mum and sister
Speaker 2: talk about you, what would you want them to say?
Speaker 2: What would you, jeeves I want them to say about
Speaker 2: you and the boy they raise God?
Speaker 1: Well, I know for a fact that they would start
Speaker 1: off with saying on a pain in the heart. They
Speaker 1: would absolutely one hundred percent start with that probably I
Speaker 1: don't listen to what I'm told from them. Then that
Speaker 1: they're always right. That's that's what you'll start. That's what
Speaker 1: they're exactly I'll say first, But I think the way
Speaker 1: Mum raised my sister and I, I think my mum
Speaker 1: would say the same thing about my sister and I,
Speaker 1: cause i'd say about my sister that she's very respectful person,
Speaker 1: treats people the way she wants to be treated. She's
Speaker 1: the person that everyone wants to be around, and she's
Speaker 1: a very giving and caring person. And at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, you know, no matter what, whether we
Speaker 1: own our own house or we're living out of the
Speaker 1: back of the car or whatever, I think we will
Speaker 1: never change as people. And I've tried to keep myself
Speaker 1: grounded and tried to be the same person from when
Speaker 1: I was growing up. You know, I went through a
Speaker 1: stage of being a little shit ed back home, but
Speaker 1: then you know, i'd come back to being humble and
Speaker 1: trying to be a person that everyone can get along
Speaker 1: with and being respectful. So hopefully they'd say all that,
Speaker 1: but they'd definitely let you know that I don't listen
Speaker 1: to them very very often, and that that my mum
Speaker 1: always says, all right, go do what you do. But
Speaker 1: when you come back crying and saying that I'm right,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna it's gonna be satisfying, you know.
Speaker 2: So, So for mum listening right now, is she right?
Speaker 1: I don't know if I but she's most of the time,
Speaker 1: she's always right. I'll give her that. I'll say most
Speaker 1: of the time. I won't say every time. I'll give
Speaker 1: her most of the time. But my sister, like I said,
Speaker 1: we're pretty much the same person, and there's six years
Speaker 1: between us, but people would think that we're the same person.
Speaker 2: Really so, except she's a bit scarier.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's definitely. She's definitely a bit scarier. She's definitely
Speaker 1: the more. If she tells you she's gonna fight, you
Speaker 1: put the gloves on because you're gonna get into a
Speaker 1: fight with her. Really so.
Speaker 2: But yeah, Zachie, thank you so much. I really do
Speaker 2: appreciate your honesty, your insight. I hope it helps a
Speaker 2: lot of people listening to understand you a bit better,
Speaker 2: understand culture a bit better, and hopefully have their own
Speaker 2: conversations about it. So I really appreciate you coming.
Speaker 1: On nah, I loved it. It's good chat. Thanks Nis time.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to this episode of Ordinarily Speaking. If
Speaker 2: this chat has been triggering for you, please ask for help.
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