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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, we need to raise kids to see that committing

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Speaker 2: to one person is actually an enriching experience and something

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Speaker 2: that can be jumped into enthusiastically.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 3: Hello everybody, it's doctor Justin Coulson. Welcome to The Happy

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Speaker 3: Family's Podcast Today. Kylie couldn't be with me, Unfortunately, that's

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Speaker 3: life sometimes when we've got a big family and a

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Speaker 3: whole lot of moving parts. But I'm really excited for

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Speaker 3: the conversation that we're having. The consent conversation is not

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Speaker 3: going away. Everybody knows by now about the petition that

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Speaker 3: was started a couple of months ago by Chanel Contos,

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Speaker 3: an Ossie expat living in the UK, but talking about

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Speaker 3: the unwanted, non consensual sexual activity that was occurring when

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Speaker 3: she was a high school student at one of those

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Speaker 3: ritzy schools in the eastern suburbs of Sydney, and of

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Speaker 3: course in the news since then there's been really big

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Speaker 3: stories around consent and unwanted sexual advances, primarily from males

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Speaker 3: towards females in parliament. We've seen major sports stars that

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Speaker 3: have been in all sorts of strife in the courts

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Speaker 3: because of it. And there was a news article on ABC.

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Speaker 3: Actually it wasn't a news article so much as an

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Speaker 3: opinion article on the ABC website a couple of months

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Speaker 3: ago that caught my attention. I thought that it was

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Speaker 3: profoundly important and it highlighted some pretty important cultural and

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Speaker 3: societal paradigms that may explain a little bit about why

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Speaker 3: we are where we are and what could be done

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Speaker 3: about it. Just before we begin the podcast, I do

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Speaker 3: need to highlight that the content, while not rated explicit,

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Speaker 3: does deal with some fairly adult only kinds of topics.

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Speaker 3: We do recommend that people listen to the podcast with

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Speaker 3: their children only if they're mature enough to take the

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Speaker 3: content in. Otherwise, turn this one off and save it

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Speaker 3: for a little bit later. Emma Wood holds a peace

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Speaker 3: HDM moral philosophy. She's a research fellow at Women's Forum Australia.

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Speaker 3: She wrote an article that was on the ABC recently

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Speaker 3: called the Significance of Sex and Emma joins me to

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Speaker 3: talk about that article and the consent conversation. Thanks for

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Speaker 3: being here, Emma.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. It's good to be.

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Speaker 3: Here, Emma, we have as a society. In your article

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Speaker 3: two Views of Sex, can you walk us through how

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Speaker 3: society views sex today?

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Speaker 2: A contrast I was trying to draw in my article

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Speaker 2: was between viewing sex as a recreational activity, where sex

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Speaker 2: is really just a bodily function and the desire for

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Speaker 2: sex is just the desire to scratch a bodily itch,

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Speaker 2: versus what you might call a loftier view of sex,

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Speaker 2: which I call the significance view, where you view sex

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Speaker 2: as this precious, intimate experience of sharing the most intimate

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Speaker 2: sphere of yourself with another person, and to view sex

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Speaker 2: that way usually goes hand in hand with believing that

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Speaker 2: it should be reserved for very special relationships and that

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Speaker 2: the most intimate physical act should be accompanied by an

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Speaker 2: emotional intimacy and an emotional depth and commitment as well.

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Speaker 3: Emma, when I listen to you describe those two views,

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Speaker 3: they're obviously polar opposites.

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Speaker 4: We've got one.

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Speaker 3: I remember the song by the Blood Hand Gang from

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Speaker 3: the nineteen nineties, You or me, baby, we ain't nothing

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Speaker 3: but mammal, So let's do it like they do. On

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Speaker 3: the Discovery Channel that kind of I guess hook up culture,

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Speaker 3: and I know that this particular culture exists. I don't

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Speaker 3: get the sense that it's the dominant view of most

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Speaker 3: people in society, even young people, although it's probably more

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Speaker 3: predominant in a younger cohort. And then we've got the

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Speaker 3: significance view, which I would usually associate with more of

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Speaker 3: a conservative, church going kind of nineteen fifties approach to sex.

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Speaker 3: My guess, though, is that most people sit on a

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Speaker 3: continuum somewhere between the two, and as we get older

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Speaker 3: and involve ourselves in deeper and more meaningful relationships, I'd

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Speaker 3: also guess that most people would tend towards the more

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Speaker 3: significant view, even if they once held a recreational view.

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Speaker 3: Do you have any sense of whether that would be

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Speaker 3: an accurate picture or not.

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Speaker 2: I think yes. I wouldn't necessarily agree that older people

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Speaker 2: hold a more significance view of sex and younger people

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Speaker 2: hold a more recreational view of sex. I think it

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Speaker 2: has very much to do with the kind of philosophy

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Speaker 2: and the kind of values and belief system a person

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Speaker 2: has grown up with. Now, it's true that some young people,

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Speaker 2: maybe who have grown up in a religious or conservative

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Speaker 2: household out of a sense of wanting to rebel. Might

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Speaker 2: reject that, But I don't get the sense that it's

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Speaker 2: neatly cut and dry along age lines like that. Some

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Speaker 2: of the people that I hear from who are most

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Speaker 2: committed to a recreational view of a better word, your

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Speaker 2: aging hippie types, your early baby boomers, Whereas I do

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Speaker 2: talk to a lot of young people today who sense

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Speaker 2: that something profound is missing from the cultural landscape in

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Speaker 2: the discussion about sex. So I don't think it's quite

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Speaker 2: as simple as that, But I think a person's a

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Speaker 2: person's philosophy and values.

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Speaker 4: We're going to take a quick break.

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Speaker 3: When we come back, we're going to talk more about

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Speaker 3: this recreational view of sex and this significance view of sex,

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Speaker 3: and what parents can do at a practical level to

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Speaker 3: help their kids make safe, healthy and consensual decisions.

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Speaker 1: It's their Happy Famili's podcast for.

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Speaker 4: A happier family, Try a Happy Families membership, because a

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Speaker 4: happy family doesn't just happen. Details at happy families dot

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Speaker 4: com dot au. It's the Happy Families Podcast.

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Speaker 3: The podcast or the type poor parent who just wants

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Speaker 3: answers now talking with Emma Wood, somebody who holds a

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Speaker 3: PhD in moral philosophy and as a research fellow at

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Speaker 3: Women's Forum Australia. Really fascinating discussion about but consent and

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Speaker 3: the way society views sexual interaction. Is it something that's

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Speaker 3: just for recreation because baby, it feels good, or is

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Speaker 3: it something far more significant that should only be reserved

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Speaker 3: for very special and intimate relationships with people that maybe

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Speaker 3: even with just one person or with as few people

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Speaker 3: as possible, because it matters so much, it's so significant. Emma,

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Speaker 3: thanks again for what we're talking about. I've got a

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Speaker 3: quick question for you about this recreational view of sex.

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Speaker 3: Where does it come from? Because most parents that I

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Speaker 3: talk to are pretty uncomfortable with the idea that their

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Speaker 3: children would be chasing sex for the sake of going

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Speaker 3: out and sowing their seeds, as the phrase used to

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Speaker 3: be back in the olden days.

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Speaker 2: Where does it come from? The recreational view? In one sense,

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Speaker 2: the recreational view has always been with us. We see

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Speaker 2: throughout the history of thought, going all the way back

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Speaker 2: to ancient Greece, that we had thinkers promoting various versions

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Speaker 2: of the recreational view, and the significance view course student,

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Speaker 2: the timeless fact that sex makes babies. A purely recreational

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Speaker 2: view of sex has always been somewhat impractical for most

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Speaker 2: of human history. For most of the history of the West,

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Speaker 2: the dominant view of sex has been that it ought

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Speaker 2: to be reserved for the marriage relationship, this lifelong covenant

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Speaker 2: of love and trust, which is the ideal rearing setting

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Speaker 2: for children. What happened in the late nineteenth and early

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Speaker 2: twentieth century, however, is that certain intellectuals came to see

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Speaker 2: this traditional marriage view as oppressive to the individual or

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Speaker 2: to individual flourishing. So, you know, while traditionalists view sex

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Speaker 2: sexual desire as this desire for intimacy with another person

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Speaker 2: which fulfills a purpose of consummating a very special relationship,

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Speaker 2: we have thinkers like Sigmund Freud and Alfred Kinsey and

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Speaker 2: Willem Reich who see sexual desire as just this depersonalized

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Speaker 2: desire for a bodily sensation.

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Speaker 3: I'll have to ask you, because most parents don't want

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Speaker 3: their children chasing a recreational view. Now, some are fine

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Speaker 3: with it, but many parents really want their children to

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Speaker 3: be careful, to be safe and healthy, and make those

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Speaker 3: intimate decisions as late as they can in life, and

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Speaker 3: with preferably as few people as possible. What can parents

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Speaker 3: do at a practical level to help their children to

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Speaker 3: make those safe, healthy, consensual choices.

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Speaker 2: There are ten tips that I quickly like to give

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Speaker 2: to help parents instill a higher view of sex. We

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Speaker 2: can elaborate on any of these ten tips, but I'll

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Speaker 2: just run through each of them quickly. We'll see which

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Speaker 2: one's most interesting. So number one, parents need to talk

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Speaker 2: to their kids about sex early, often and positively. Parents

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Speaker 2: need to give kids good reasons and arguments for regarding

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Speaker 2: sex as special, which go beyond your own say so

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Speaker 2: and beyond cheap scare tactics.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's something that I really emphasize when it's to parents,

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Speaker 3: is we want to give kids a really positive view

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Speaker 3: of sex. But the best sex that you have is

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Speaker 3: in the context of an emotionally and socially and psychologically

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Speaker 3: and even spiritually fulfilling relationship and partnership. It's not as wonderful,

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Speaker 3: especially over the long haul, if it doesn't exist in

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Speaker 3: that context, and there's increasingly data that would support that.

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Speaker 4: What's the second idea?

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Speaker 2: So number two would be raise your kids to reject

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Speaker 2: the individualistic model of relationships these days that tells people

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Speaker 2: that we need to play the field before quote settling down.

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Speaker 2: So we need to raise kids to see that committing

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Speaker 2: to one person is actually an enriching experience and something

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Speaker 2: that can be jumped into enthusiastically. So we do need

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Speaker 2: to start helping our kids to think from an early

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Speaker 2: age about what sort of person they want to end

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Speaker 2: up with, so that they can be in a good

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Speaker 2: position to make a wise decision about this at a

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Speaker 2: younger age than we believe is possible. That would be

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Speaker 2: my second tip.

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Speaker 4: What's next?

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Speaker 2: Third tip? Give your kids dating tips.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: Part of the reason I think hookup culture is so

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Speaker 2: prevalent is because I think it has become a comfort zone,

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Speaker 2: with the result that many young people no longer know

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Speaker 2: how to go on a proper traditional date.

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Speaker 3: My kids hate it when I give them dating tips,

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Speaker 3: and I'm always telling them when you go on a date,

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Speaker 3: you don't have to kiss someone, you don't have to

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Speaker 3: hold the hand. A date is forgetting to know someone.

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Speaker 3: It's about conversations, and you can go on a date

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Speaker 3: with one person one day and on a date with

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Speaker 3: another person the next day and you're not being a

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Speaker 3: two timer because you're not in a relationship with them,

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Speaker 3: You're just going on a date.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, that's right. I think if we get kids,

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Speaker 2: you know, without without pressuring them and making and making

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Speaker 2: them feel as if they have to make romantic relationships

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Speaker 2: be all end or when they're really young, I think

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Speaker 2: it does help to give kids tools. Even though they

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Speaker 2: may hate it and cringe, it does help to give

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Speaker 2: kids tools that will help them to socialize in this

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Speaker 2: way that used to come more easily to people. It's

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Speaker 2: no use asking our kids to avoid hook up culture

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Speaker 2: and casual sex if we have nothing interesting and positive

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Speaker 2: to put in its place right right.

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Speaker 3: And dating culture in Australia is almost absent. We have

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Speaker 3: some friends in the US and they've got this elaborate

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Speaker 3: dating culture. There's so much going on there and it

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Speaker 3: seems completely non existent here in Australia.

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Speaker 4: What's your next idea?

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Speaker 2: So number four would be to expose your kids to movies, music,

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Speaker 2: art or literature that illustrates the beauty of romance and

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Speaker 2: the significance of sex. You do need to give your

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Speaker 2: kids good arguments, good science, good analogies to show why

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Speaker 2: sex ought to be treated specially, but you also need

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Speaker 2: to give them material that almost bypasses the rational side

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Speaker 2: of the brain and elevates this vision of sex.

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Speaker 4: You're saying, representation matters.

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Speaker 2: Right, in representation matters?

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Speaker 4: What else?

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Speaker 2: Okay, So the next tip would be to shield your

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Speaker 2: kids from pornography. This is a really important one. Sadly,

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Speaker 2: the average age that kids first get exposed to hardcore

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Speaker 2: internet porn these days is eleven. Don't let your kids

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Speaker 2: be one of those kids. Do whatever it takes. Have

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Speaker 2: a work computer in the study that is only for parents,

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Speaker 2: and a family computer in a public space that is

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Speaker 2: for everyone else. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: We had a conversation with Melinda Tankardreese. We'll actually link

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Speaker 3: to that in the show notes. She gave us some

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Speaker 3: really important advice around kids and porn.

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Speaker 4: I'm glad you raised that. What's your next one?

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Speaker 2: Cultivate in your daughters a confidence in their own worth.

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Speaker 2: Because most young girls are romantics by instinct. You just

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Speaker 2: need to give them the confidence as parents to live

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Speaker 2: up to their high romantic ideals and cultivate in your

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Speaker 2: sons the desire for chivalrous responsibility and a noble vision

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Speaker 2: of masculinity.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I really love that, But I could also imagine

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Speaker 3: that in twenty twenty one there'll be a whole bunch

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Speaker 3: of people who are saying, Oh, that's so nineteen forties,

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Speaker 3: that's so passe.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think I would just simply point those people

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Speaker 2: to the consent crisis that we're having and remind people

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Speaker 2: again that most of these problems are happening one way.

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Speaker 2: Most of these problems are boys exploiting girls. So there

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Speaker 2: has obviously been some failure to cultivate good men who

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Speaker 2: have an awareness of their superior strength and therefore their

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Speaker 2: responsibility to restrain that strength. So I think the consent

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Speaker 2: crisis is all the evidence you need that there ought

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Speaker 2: to still be a place for some kind of chivalry

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Speaker 2: in the raising of our men.

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Speaker 4: What else have you got for us?

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Speaker 2: Next tip be aware of the experiences, the negative experiences

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Speaker 2: and negative influences that can derail kids, and be aware

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Speaker 2: that many of these negative influences come from seemingly reputable

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Speaker 2: authority figures and organizations. There are many groups going around

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Speaker 2: schools right now talking about sexual consent giving kids through

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Speaker 2: their websites and sometimes through their talks. That very casual

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Speaker 2: view of sex that we talked about earlier. Not all

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Speaker 2: organizations that present a reputable front are to be trusted,

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Speaker 2: and so you need to be aware of that as parents.

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Speaker 2: And lastly, most importantly, demonstrate the beauty of romance and

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Speaker 2: monogamy and faithfulness through your own strong and loving marriage.

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Speaker 2: I think this is the most important thing because there

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Speaker 2: is a lot of research that shows that kids who

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Speaker 2: have a positive family experience and who experience the love

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Speaker 2: and see the love of their parents, these are the

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Speaker 2: sorts of kids who do avoid early sexual experience and

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Speaker 2: who do wait and who are set on a more

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Speaker 2: positive trajectory. So this last tip is a very important one.

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Speaker 2: Let your kids see that you're in love.

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Speaker 3: Kiss in the kitchen in front of them, even when

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Speaker 3: they go ooh, that's gross.

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Speaker 2: Dress up on date night and let them see you

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Speaker 2: dressed up as you head out.

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Speaker 4: Love it. Emma has been a delight talking to you.

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Speaker 4: Thank you so much. Emma Wood holds a.

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Speaker 3: PhD Morral Philosophy and as a research fellow at Women's

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Speaker 3: Forum Australia talking more about different perspectives and ways that

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Speaker 3: we can help our children to navigate and manage some

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Speaker 3: of the challenges associated with consent.

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Speaker 4: We really hope that this.

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Speaker 3: Podcast has given you food for thought and maybe inspired

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Speaker 3: you in the conversations that you have with your kids.

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Speaker 3: If you enjoy the podcast, we'd love those five star

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Speaker 3: ratings and reviews to keep on coming. They help people

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Speaker 3: to find the podcast to make their families have The

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Speaker 3: podcast is produce all thanks to Justin Ruwland from Bridge

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Speaker 3: Media and Craig Bruce is our executive producer. We've got

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Speaker 3: Older Better tomorrow on Friday, and a whole lot of

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Speaker 3: other good stuff on the podcast to help your family

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Speaker 3: be happier. Look forward to catching up with you on

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Speaker 3: the podcast again tomorrow. In the meantime, you feel like

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Speaker 3: moringful about making your family happy, you can get it

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Speaker 3: all at happy families dot com dot a