1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,880 Speaker 1: And so I wrote the story about the impact that 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 1: phones can have on our concentration and level of focus. 3 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:10,400 Speaker 1: And I cited a bunch of studies that showed that 4 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: even if your phone is powered off, you know, completely 5 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: turned off, turned upside down, if you know that it's 6 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 1: there in your area, it still negatively impacts your ability 7 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 1: to focus. And so that was like kind of shocking 8 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: for me to see, you know, the idea that even 9 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: if I know my phone is not on, that it's 10 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: still a source of distraction. So what I ended up doing, 11 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 1: and I still do this is, you know, when I'm 12 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:35,480 Speaker 1: trying to get into one of these kind of deep 13 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: work holes, I'll literally turn my phone off, put it 14 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:40,319 Speaker 1: in my desk drawer and lock it. 15 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 16 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 2: used by leading innovators to get so much out of 17 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 2: their day. I'm your host, doctor amed the Imbach. I'm 18 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 2: an organizational psychologist, the founder of Innovation Consultancy Inventing, and 19 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 2: I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work day. Now, 20 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:05,960 Speaker 2: before I get onto introducing today's guest, I wanted to 21 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 2: do a shout out to all the lovely people that 22 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 2: have been leaving reviews for How I Work. I wanted 23 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 2: to share one with you that was left a few 24 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 2: days ago that that for a big smile to my face. 25 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 2: It was from Akhmed's Speaking, and Akhmed Speaking wrote, is 26 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 2: she watching me? I enjoy listening to the podcast while 27 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 2: out walking at lunchtime. Often I stopped to look around 28 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 2: to see if a maanther is following me because her 29 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:33,320 Speaker 2: topics sound like a commentary to my workday. The way 30 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 2: she puts the topics makes sense and gives you small 31 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:39,040 Speaker 2: tangible ways to improve. Thank you so much, Agmed Speaking. 32 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:43,679 Speaker 2: That is delightful. And if you're listening and you're enjoying 33 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 2: How I Work, I would love it if you could 34 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 2: leave a review and I might even read it out 35 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 2: on a future show. So thank you Akmed Speaking and 36 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 2: everyone else that has left reviews. Okay, let's get on 37 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 2: to today's guest. Who is Tim Herrera. Tim is the 38 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 2: fast founding editor of Smarter Living for The New York Times, 39 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 2: where he edits and reports stories about living a better 40 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 2: and more fulfilling life. Before being at the New York Times, 41 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 2: he was a reporter and editor at The Washington Post, 42 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 2: where he wrote about digital culture. Now I am a 43 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 2: regular subscriber to Smarter Living, or I should say a 44 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 2: subscriber and regular reader, and I thought that surely the 45 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 2: person editing this section of the Times must have some 46 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 2: awesome practices in his own life for well living smarter 47 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 2: and Tim totally did. He has thought a lot about 48 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 2: how he works and lives, and I think you'll find 49 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 2: a heap of really practical ideas in this interview. And 50 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 2: for me, I particularly liked hearing Tim's thoughts on procrastinations, 51 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 2: something that we all struggle with, and how he tries 52 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 2: to overcome it. So on that note, over to Tim 53 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 2: to hear about how he works. Hey, Tim, welcome to 54 00:02:58,360 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 2: the show. 55 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 3: Hi, Thanks what you're having me? 56 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 2: So, Tim, for the last three years you have edited 57 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 2: the Smarter Living section of the New York Times, and 58 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 2: I imagine you've probably read literally thousands of articles offering advice. 59 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 2: Is that fair to say? 60 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 3: Yeah? 61 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like it's an amazing job because it's essentially 62 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: like my full time job is just to learn how 63 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: to be better at life. 64 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 3: It's amazing. 65 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 1: And you know, we have run stories on pretty much 66 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 1: every topic imaginable, you know, the spectrum, from how to 67 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: you know, pack a suitcase for long term travel, or 68 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 1: set up your first kitchen, all the way to examining 69 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: the cognitive biases that impact our decision making and everyday life. 70 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: So it's like, it's amazing that I just get to 71 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: learn all this great stuff about how to be a 72 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: better person. 73 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 2: I think that's so cool. And I want to know, 74 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 2: what have been the best pieces of advice that you've 75 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 2: read on the topic of how to live smarter? 76 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,839 Speaker 1: I mean, I think probably the thing I've learned and 77 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: that has had the biggest impact in my life is 78 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: it's okay to stop doing stuff that you don't want 79 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: to do, which always, whenever I talk about that, it 80 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: feels like such silly, dumb advice because like, of course, 81 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: I shouldn't do things that I don't want to do. 82 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: But you know, it really can impact every aspect of 83 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: our lives, from work and the stuff that we do 84 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 1: that make up our day to day jobs, to relationships 85 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,720 Speaker 1: to habits in general. But it's really just this astoundingly 86 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:23,679 Speaker 1: powerful piece of wisdom. 87 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 3: Really. 88 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 1: There's a book called Essentialism by Greg Mcowan and I 89 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: read it years ago and it is, you know, definitely 90 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:33,720 Speaker 1: one of the books that has literally changed my life, 91 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: and I've really kind of focused on that, you know, 92 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: in the way that I operate. But I've written a 93 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 1: lot about that and have really kind of just tried 94 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: to extol this idea that it's okay to give up 95 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: on stuff that your heart isn't in or that's not 96 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: bringing you happiness, or that you don't want to be doing. 97 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 2: How do you actually do that, like practically I've read 98 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 2: essentialism as well, and I loved it. And so what 99 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 2: does that look like practically in your life? 100 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,599 Speaker 1: It varies depending on how and where you're trying to 101 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 1: implement it. So so for me, for example, I despise meetings. 102 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 3: I think they're a waste of time. I think they 103 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 3: should not exist. 104 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,359 Speaker 1: I think it's you know, a totally harmful way to 105 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 1: getting anything done. And so I basically just like stopped 106 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: going to meetings, and you know, the impact that it 107 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: has actually had in terms of the work that I'm 108 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 1: doing is minimal, you know, like meetings are so pointless, 109 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: and you know, everything that we do I think in 110 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: meetings can generally be taking her over email or Slack 111 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: or just a quick phone call. But for me, it 112 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 1: was something that just I dreaded doing and you know, 113 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: I happen to be in a position where I'm able 114 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 1: to decline meetings, and you know, it probably makes me 115 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: a little less easy to work with just because I 116 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: refuse to go to meetings. But the satisfaction I get 117 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 1: from not going to meetings, but also the increase in 118 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: productivity that I'm able to kind of get out of 119 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:53,599 Speaker 1: that is totally worth the trade off. And you know, 120 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,039 Speaker 1: it's just something that I you know, once I've made 121 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 1: that change, my work life totally improved, you know. But 122 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 1: you know, there are smaller things throughout the day that 123 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: we can try to cut out. But you know, really 124 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:07,280 Speaker 1: it just varies on kind of what it is you're 125 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 1: trying to stop doing. Getting to the root of why 126 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: we don't like doing certain things is kind of a 127 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:14,359 Speaker 1: whole other issue, and it really has a lot to 128 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,840 Speaker 1: do with being self aware and being really cognizant about 129 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 1: the things that we do in our lives that bring 130 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,160 Speaker 1: us genuine joy. But you know, stop doing stuff that 131 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 1: is like the biggest piece of advice that I always give, 132 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 1: and I will always talk about that whenever I can. 133 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I want to dig into this meeting. So 134 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:32,280 Speaker 2: you literally just refuse to go to meetings. Can you 135 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 2: tell me about like was there a day that you 136 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 2: decided to do that, and how did you do that? 137 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 2: How did your coworkers react, like how does that actually work? 138 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so for the position that I was in 139 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: before I launched Smarter Living, it. 140 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 3: Was really really meeting space. So it was a lot of. 141 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: Coordination, a lot of cross desk collaboration, you know, stuff 142 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: that I actually do enjoy, but getting there through meetings 143 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,359 Speaker 1: was just tortures, torture for everybody involved. And so, you know, 144 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: once I kind of realized how little meetings actually do, 145 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 1: you know, the actual work that results from them, and 146 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: how much I just hated them, it was really just 147 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: kind of like aha moment that like, you know what, 148 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: I'm just not going to go to meetings anymore. And so, 149 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 1: you know, to to kind of make up for that, 150 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: you know, I do try to be extremely available on 151 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: Slack and extremely responsive and you know, just make sure 152 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 1: that I'm able to address anything that would come up 153 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: in a meeting. 154 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 3: And and of course there are some meetings. 155 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: That I can't get out of, you know, like if 156 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: the you know, big boss like wants to have a meeting, 157 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: like obviously I'm not going to decline that, but you know, 158 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: by and large, the you know impact that it had, 159 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: you know, it was just like great across the board. 160 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 1: And you know, like meetings are such a funny example, 161 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: because they're just they're sort of this necessary evil. You know, 162 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: nobody likes them, everyone thinks they're generally kind of productive, 163 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 1: but you know, it is just kind of part of working, 164 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: a part of office culture. And so you know, to 165 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: the extent that I've been able, you know, cutting that 166 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: out was just, like I said, just like a revelation. 167 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I can imagine what else did you cut out 168 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 2: that's made a significant improve to your life. 169 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 1: I am slowly trying to cut out email, because it's 170 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: another one of those things that is like really necessary 171 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: and like you can't really ever totally extract yourself from. 172 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 1: But I try to be available in other ways. Like 173 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: there's nothing I hate more in the world than like 174 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: sending an email or getting an email. My inbox is 175 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: like eternally a train wreck. But you know, I do 176 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: try to open up other avenues of communication. I work 177 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: a lot with freelancers, and so you know, I always 178 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: whenever I start those you know, working relationships, I do 179 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: kind of caveat and say, hey, I'm really bad an email. 180 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: It's not personal. It doesn't mean I don't you know, 181 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: want to work with you. But then you know, I offer, like, 182 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: if you need to get a hold of me, like 183 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:43,679 Speaker 1: send me a DM on Twitter or you know, send 184 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: me a dem on Instagram. And you know, those are 185 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: much more manageable places to communicate, and it takes kind 186 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:52,680 Speaker 1: of the burden of having to compose a professional email away, 187 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 1: and so the barrier there to communication is a lot lower, 188 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: and it's just like so much more casual, and I 189 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: feel like the overall interaction is just a lot more 190 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: enjoyable for everybody involved. And you know, it gets quick results, 191 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 1: and you know, things don't get lost in email, and 192 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: and you know all the other stress that comes with email. 193 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: You know, we can hopefully kind of sidestep that by 194 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 1: you know, just picking up on these other avenues of communication. 195 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I really liked when I initially emailed you 196 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 2: for this interview. I liked that your auto responder is 197 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 2: so comprehensive in terms of basically setting expectations for any 198 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 2: kind of inquiry that someone might have emailed you about. 199 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 2: And I must say I was actually pleasantly surprised when 200 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 2: you emailed me back. 201 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 3: So thank you, Tim, of course for you anything. I'll 202 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 3: always respond to your emails. 203 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, of course thanks, I'll remember that. So I want 204 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 2: to know, like, what is your approach to your inbox? 205 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 2: What does that look like if someone was sitting on 206 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 2: your shoulder during the day, what are they seeing in 207 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 2: terms of how you're managing your inbox and how often 208 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 2: you're in there. 209 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: Like so frankly, my inbox like is, like I said, 210 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: a train wreck all the time. And I don't, you know, 211 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: I don't really have a great strategy for managing it. 212 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: Like anybody I work with would you know, tell you 213 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 1: right off the bat, like I'm so bad at email. 214 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: I'm about a getting back to people, so you know, 215 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: I like, honestly haven't really found a way that works 216 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: for me. You know, one strategy that the writer Karakutrulouza 217 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: told me about was email batching, and so that is 218 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: you set aside a certain amount of time in the day, 219 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: and during that period of time, all you're doing is 220 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 1: responding and writing emails. You know, you're not you know, 221 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: checking Twitter, You're not you know, kind of half heartedly 222 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: doing it. You're just writing and responding to emails. And 223 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:33,839 Speaker 1: for me, like that actually was something that did kind 224 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: of work out because I you know, part of I 225 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 1: think a lot of the anxiety and stress that comes 226 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: with email and inboxes is that it's kind of always there. 227 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: There's always something that could be coming in. You know, 228 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: if there's never a point where email is like shut off, 229 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: you know in the way that like you can hang 230 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 1: up a phone call and that's the end of it. 231 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 1: You know, email is just always there. And so kind 232 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 1: of shifting that relationship to one where I only interact 233 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: with it during this period of time and I'm not 234 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: going to think about it any other time of the day. 235 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:04,079 Speaker 1: You know, that for me was really helpful. And you 236 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: know what, that's a strategy that I think a lot 237 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: of people have really kind of taken to because again, 238 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: it really just establishes that relationship and puts boundaries on 239 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: it a little bit. And you know, I think setting 240 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 1: boundaries and in all work life in general, but in 241 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 1: particular with our inboxes is something that is really really important. 242 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 1: You know, I'm not always great at it, and I 243 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: you know, generally have it open throughout the day, but 244 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: you know, trying to be cognizant of what time you're 245 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 1: devoting to it and really trying to build a schedule 246 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: or a structure where you're being a little bit more 247 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: you know, just a little bit more thoughtful about how 248 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: you approach it. 249 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 3: For me, that's that has been really helpful. 250 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,079 Speaker 1: I'm still terrible at email, but thinking it from thinking 251 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 1: about it from this kind of slightly different perspective, like really, 252 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 1: you know, has kind of helped me in the you know, 253 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 1: practical side of getting the emails, but also just reframing 254 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: that relationship has a lot of, uh, you know, for me, 255 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 1: a lot of cognitive benefits because I don't have that 256 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: kind of negative association with it and that stress that 257 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: it's just kind of all always there. 258 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And look, I imagine one of the things 259 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 2: that would feel your inbox is pitches for artical ideas. 260 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 2: And I read this great article that you wrote when 261 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,439 Speaker 2: I was researching for this interview about how to pitch 262 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 2: to the New York Times, and I want to know 263 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 2: for you what makes a great pitch. 264 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:18,679 Speaker 3: Yeah. 265 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:21,679 Speaker 1: So I do get so so many pitches on an 266 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: average to get like maybe a dozen or so, but 267 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 1: every off, every so often, all solicit pitches on Twitter, 268 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 1: and you know, those days, my inbox is like a 269 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 1: complete useless mass. You know, I'll get hundreds and hundreds 270 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: of pitches and story ideas. I do read every single one. 271 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: I don't respond to everyone, but to read them all. 272 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 3: You know. 273 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: I think something that can really help help improve a 274 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 1: pitch is being one really succinct and two actually knowing 275 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 1: what the story is. And those two ideas kind of 276 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 1: go hand in hand. So in that story that you're referencing, 277 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: I wrote something like, you know, I don't believe any 278 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 1: pitch for any story in the world needs to be 279 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 1: longer than like eight or nine sentences, And I very 280 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 1: sincerely do believe that. You know, if if you can't 281 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: tell me what your story is in you know, eight 282 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 1: or nine sentences, you know, that's generally an indication that 283 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: you're not totally sure what the story actually is. And 284 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 1: so really hammering down what you're trying to say, what's 285 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: the conceit of the story? How are we framing it? 286 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: You know, what's the point in a really compact way? 287 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 1: You know, I think one helps think through what the 288 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: story is, but it just makes for a better overall 289 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: pitch because it really helps you just get to the point. 290 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 3: So those two things I think are so so crucial. 291 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: And then the other thing that I that I always 292 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: just like to talk about is a bad pitch doesn't 293 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: necessarily mean a bad story idea, you know, So you 294 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: can have like a great story idea and just completely 295 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 1: botch the pitch, but you know, you can always just 296 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: go rethink the way that you actually pitch the story. 297 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:46,479 Speaker 3: And you know, I when I do give feedback. 298 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 1: To freelancers that I decline stories, you know, I'm always 299 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 1: I always do try to make the point that you know, 300 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: like a no doesn't necessarily have to be the end 301 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 1: of this story idea. There are or hundreds of reasons 302 00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: that editors decline pitches. But you know, again, a pitch 303 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: or a note from an editor doesn't always mean that 304 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: the story idea has to go away. 305 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 2: And what are some common mistakes that people make when 306 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 2: they're pitching, Like you may I imagine a really lengthy 307 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 2: pitch is a common mistake given that, given what you 308 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 2: said around concise pitching, But where else do people get 309 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 2: it wrong? 310 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 3: So, I mean every. 311 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: Editor has their you know, their annoyances, the things that 312 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: dread up the wall. But so for me, I think 313 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: one of the most common mistakes that I see in 314 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: pitches is the freelancer didn't search the archives to see 315 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: if we've already done that story. And yes, like that 316 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: does seem like kind of a petty thing to get 317 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: annoyed at, but but you know, really it I think 318 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: reveals a lot more than a writer might think, because 319 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: it just kind of shows that, you know, the writer 320 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 1: didn't put in the effort to do you know, a 321 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: cursor research to see if we have run this story 322 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 1: in you know, recently, in the last year, in the 323 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: last couple of weeks, whatever. But you know, to me 324 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: that it kind of shows that, you know, the writer 325 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: isn't willing to do the literal bare minimum before sending 326 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: along this pitch. And so then you know, you kind 327 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: of start thinking, well, if they were you know, a 328 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: little careless with that, like, how can I trust them 329 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: not to be careless with the story. It's not as 330 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: black and white as that, of course, and you know, 331 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: I definitely, you know, have you know, taking pitches that 332 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: we were able to like shift a little bit to 333 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: be not too close to something that we had run. 334 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: But I think it's just something that is so easy 335 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: to do, and it saves everybody a lot of time 336 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: and everybody a lot of headaches because you know, no, 337 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: you're wasting your time if you're pitching a story that 338 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: a section has already run, and so you know it's 339 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 1: doing yourself a favor two so that you can just 340 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: be most effected about where you're pitching what idea? 341 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I like that as advice. I think you know 342 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 2: it is all about what you can infer from the pitch, 343 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 2: given that you're asking for a relatively short sample of 344 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 2: their thinking. 345 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 3: So I do like that. 346 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 2: Now I want to ask about Twitter. So you did 347 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 2: mention that you sometimes refer it when people dmu via Twitter, 348 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 2: and looking at your Twitter feed, your quite prolific on it, 349 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 2: and I want to know, like you're your job as 350 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 2: editing and also writing pieces for The New York Times, 351 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 2: I imagine requires intense focus. How how do you balance 352 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 2: that focus with spending or allocating time on social media? 353 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 2: What does that look like for you? 354 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: So I do waste a lot of time on Twitter, 355 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 1: Like I will fully admit to that, But you know, 356 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: I think the way that I kind of structure my 357 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: day and have built kind of system that allows me 358 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: to be most productive is partially kind of segmenting and 359 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 1: compartmentalizing when I'm goofing around on Twitter and when I'm 360 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 1: actually doing work, trying to stick to a schedule and 361 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: create habits around that. But you know, I think for me, 362 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: what I found most successful is schedule my day in 363 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: little bursts of productivity or you know, times where I 364 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: know I'm just doing one thing. 365 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 3: Cal Newpork, you know, literally wrote a book about this 366 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 3: called Deep Work. 367 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: But the idea is that you schedule, you set aside 368 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: time specific just to do the thing that you're trying 369 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: to finish, you know, for me, whether that's editing a 370 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: story or reporting something or writing it out, and during 371 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 1: that period of time, you're not doing anything else whatsoever. 372 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 1: You know, your phone's off, you don't have Twitter open 373 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: the background, you're not even thinking about email. You're just 374 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 1: focused on this one singular task that you're trying to finish. 375 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: And so that to me is what makes most sense. 376 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: You know, I get into these you know kind of 377 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:21,439 Speaker 1: holes where you know I'll have maybe it's just ten minutes, 378 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,159 Speaker 1: or you know, maybe it ends up being seven or 379 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: eight hours, but you know it just being so singularly 380 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 1: focused on one thing and ignoring all the other distractions 381 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 1: helps you fall into that state of flow where you're 382 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 1: really just kind of running on all cylinders and you're 383 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 1: being as productive as you can and you're just being 384 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 1: really thoughtful about what you're doing and you're not. 385 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 3: Really considering all the other stuff that's going around. 386 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 1: That said, I enjoy the distraction that Twitter offers, and 387 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:49,879 Speaker 1: you know, it's fine to pop in a couple of times, 388 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: you know a day, even you know, when I should 389 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 1: be doing something else or whatever, but you know, it's 390 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:54,920 Speaker 1: it's you know, for me, it's kind of like a 391 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 1: nice little like relief from the rest of everything that's 392 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 1: going on. You know, Twitter can be fun, and it 393 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 1: can be you know, just a nice little distraction when 394 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: you just kind of need a break from something that's 395 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 1: come of my go to during the day when I 396 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: just you know, need a few minutes to kind of decompress. 397 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:12,679 Speaker 1: But trying to you know, trying to be fine with 398 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: that and being okay with you know, falling into a 399 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: Twitter hale when it happens, but you know, just kind 400 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,120 Speaker 1: of a little something to you know, keep me saying 401 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 1: throughout the day, I think, yeah. 402 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 2: For sure, And do you have any hacks that you 403 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 2: are using to stay away from those digital temptations or 404 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 2: is it just pure will power? 405 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 3: Like what does that look like? So I actually wrote 406 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:34,160 Speaker 3: a story. 407 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: I've written a ton of stories about this, but what 408 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 1: a story specifically about putting your phones away. So that's 409 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 1: like generally one of my biggest distractions and I'm trying 410 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: to get something done, is you know, I'll see my 411 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:46,199 Speaker 1: phone light up, and you know, one notification leads to 412 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 1: the next, and before you know it, you're on Instagram 413 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 1: and it's been twenty minutes. And so I wrote the 414 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: story about the impact that phones can have on our 415 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: concentration and level of focus. And I cited a bunch 416 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,479 Speaker 1: of studies that showed that even if your phone is 417 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:04,880 Speaker 1: powered off, you know, completely turned off, turned upside down, 418 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: if you know that it's there in your area, it 419 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: still negatively impacts your ability to focus. And so that 420 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 1: was like kind of shocking for me to see, you know, 421 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:16,679 Speaker 1: the idea that even if I know my phone is 422 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:20,199 Speaker 1: not on, that it's still a source of distraction. So 423 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:22,719 Speaker 1: what I ended up doing, and I still do this, is, 424 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: you know, when I'm trying to get into one of 425 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 1: these kind of deep work holes. I'll literally turn my 426 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: phone off, put it in my desk drawer and lock 427 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,120 Speaker 1: it so it's completely you know, out of the way. 428 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 3: I can't even see it if I wanted. 429 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 1: But just getting it completely out of your physical space 430 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 1: really does kind of negate some of the negative impacts 431 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: that your phone can have on your focus. 432 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 3: You know. 433 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: One of the studies that I cited, uh looked at 434 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: putting your phone in a completely different room and like, yes, 435 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 1: that actually does dramatically increase your ability to focus. You know, 436 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 1: I don't tend to go to that extreme, but really 437 00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: just like being very thoughtful about just getting it out 438 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 1: of your physical space, you know, for me, you know, it 439 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 1: really does you know, help my ability to focus and say, 440 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 1: you know, on task and concentrate and all that. So 441 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,159 Speaker 1: that's been something that I like really have like just 442 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: taken advantage of, you know, to the full extent. 443 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:14,120 Speaker 3: That's awesome. 444 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,879 Speaker 2: So are you are you actually locking the drawer that 445 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 2: has your phone in it? 446 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:20,880 Speaker 3: Yeah? I like literally lock the drawer. 447 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: Yeah it's a little ridiculous, I know, but you know 448 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: again it helps and you know, finding what works, like 449 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: you gotta you don't take advantage of that when you can. 450 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 2: I think that's great. It reminds me. I had Tim Kendall, 451 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 2: who used to be president of Pinterest and is now 452 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 2: CEO of Moment on the show, and he was telling 453 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 2: me about how something he used to do was at home. 454 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:41,880 Speaker 2: They would actually his him and his family would lock 455 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 2: their phones away in a kitchen safe like one of 456 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 2: those safes that's designed for dietis to lock away donuts, 457 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 2: but they would put their phones in. 458 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: It reminds me of that. 459 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 3: That's great, Oh gosh. 460 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 2: And I want to ask about writing, because writing is 461 00:20:57,280 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 2: obviously a beg part of what you do, as well 462 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 2: as editing. And I want to know what are the 463 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:05,199 Speaker 2: best pieces of advice you've been given about how to 464 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 2: be a better writer or how to improve your own writing. 465 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 1: So I think, you know, one of the biggest, if 466 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: not the biggest, thing that writers can do to improve 467 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: their own writing is to do a lot of editing. 468 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:18,880 Speaker 1: So I used to be a copy editor the way 469 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,160 Speaker 1: back when, and you know, just going through the process 470 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: of looking very critically and very methodically at a story 471 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: and trying to think through what works here, what doesn't? 472 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,199 Speaker 1: Why was this done this way? You know, why do 473 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 1: we use this word, why is it organized this way? 474 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 1: Editing really forces you to think about that stuff. And 475 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: you know, in my current job, most of my time 476 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,639 Speaker 1: is devoted to editing. And so I think there's nothing 477 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:44,159 Speaker 1: better you can do if you want to be a 478 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: better writer than editing. And you know that's something that 479 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 1: in my own writing, I really you know, try to cultivate. 480 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 1: And you know, it works for both ways. You know, 481 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: when you're you know, say, editing a friend's story or 482 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:58,440 Speaker 1: you know, document or whatever, they get the benefit that 483 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: you're editing, but you know it also can be you know, 484 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 1: self serving and that you're really thinking through the mechanics 485 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: of how things fit together and you know why things 486 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 1: are presented a certain way, and you're able to take 487 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: those lessons and apply it to the writing that you 488 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,199 Speaker 1: do yourself. And so you know, I always jump at 489 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 1: the opportunity whenever you know, a friend or a coworker 490 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 1: asks me to edit something on the side, because like 491 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,399 Speaker 1: it's you know, I think taking advantage of every opportunity 492 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: you can when someone asks you to edit is just 493 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: so so crucial to your growth and development as a writer. 494 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: And then you know, I think the other main thing 495 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,159 Speaker 1: is just to actually do it, make a habit of 496 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: writing every day if it works for you, if it's 497 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: in your schedule or you know, something once a week, 498 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 1: but just carving out time where you're just practicing writing, 499 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 1: even if it's you know, not for publication or you're 500 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: you know, journaling or whatever it is. But you know, 501 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 1: making a habit out of you know, writing on a 502 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: very consistent basis and just building that into your overall 503 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 1: the overall structure of your day, you know, just helps 504 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: you improve in so many regards. And I think just actually, 505 00:22:58,359 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 1: you know, just doing it, even if it's just like 506 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 1: nonsense practice writing. Doing that enough, you know, you get 507 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,120 Speaker 1: more comfortable with finding your own voice as a writer 508 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 1: that you know, you get a lot quicker. But it's 509 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: also just doing more of it. And you know, I 510 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 1: used to really just dread writing because it's such a 511 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,640 Speaker 1: laborious process and it's difficult, and you know, you feel 512 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: all kinds of self doubt and everything. But you know, 513 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: once I really started like thinking like, well, this is 514 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,360 Speaker 1: just kind of like a skill that you can practice 515 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 1: and get better at. 516 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 3: You know. 517 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 1: Again, it's one of those like revelations that seems kind 518 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,399 Speaker 1: of dumb and obvious, but you know, actually implementing that 519 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: into my own life, my own workflow, you know, it 520 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: just kind of helped me realize, like, yeah, this is 521 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:41,639 Speaker 1: just something that you can get better at if you 522 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 1: practice more. And so so you know, between editing and 523 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 1: actually just practicing, you know, those are always kind of 524 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 1: the two things that I you know, like to go 525 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: to and two things that I hope have really improved 526 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 1: my own writing. 527 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,439 Speaker 2: Wow, so you used to dread rising, Like how how 528 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 2: did you make that crossover it? Like, was it like 529 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 2: a writing ritual that you developed or do you remember 530 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 2: what that crossover point went from dreading writing to like, 531 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:09,920 Speaker 2: I assume enjoying it now. 532 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: So I like, I feel like I had a lot 533 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: of negative emotions associated with the act, right like one, 534 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm like a habitual procrastinator, and so that 535 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 1: kind of spilled into you know, the actual work that 536 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: I was doing. But you know, once I just kind 537 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 1: of like lowered the stakes by doing it on a 538 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 1: more consistent basis and you know, making habits out of 539 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 1: it and looking at it, you know, just framing it 540 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: as practice. It seems like kind of a small shift, 541 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: but you know, for me, it really was kind of revelatory, 542 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,360 Speaker 1: you know. And I still definitely, you know, dread writings 543 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: sometimes and you know, put things off until the last 544 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 1: minute if I'm just not feeling it. But I think 545 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:46,879 Speaker 1: I have a lot less anxiety about the act of 546 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: writing itself, just because, like I do it so much, 547 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: and you know, it's just instead of looking at it 548 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: as this you know, monstrous task that you know I 549 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 1: need to, you know, make sure everything is perfect, everything's great, 550 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 1: you know, just thinking of it as something that I 551 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 1: just do out of habit, something that I need to 552 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 1: just keep practicing and keep getting better at. You know, 553 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: just lowered the stakes and lowered the I guess kind 554 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: of lowered the emotion that I associate with the act 555 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,920 Speaker 1: of writing. And you know there are you know certain 556 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 1: things that I still you know, kind of dread writing 557 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,120 Speaker 1: or you know, just don't want to do but half 558 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 1: to for whatever reason. But you know, on the whole, 559 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: you know, I think my my approach dragging and the 560 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 1: way that I view it really did just kind of 561 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 1: change into something that's like, oh, yeah, like we just 562 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 1: got to you know, write this, bang this out. This 563 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 1: is kind of you know, what you have to do. 564 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: You know, that was really I think really huge for me. 565 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 3: I like that a lot. 566 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 2: I think that's so helpful because I imagine so many 567 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 2: people feel that way about writing, and particularly when you're 568 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 2: staring at a blank screen. I mean nothing, nothing is 569 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 2: worse from that have been, you know, than when you 570 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:48,120 Speaker 2: actually have something to produce. 571 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 3: Now, I want to. 572 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 2: Ask about editing and like, what are some of the 573 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 2: common things that you see writers get wrong when you're 574 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 2: editing paces? And like, for example, something that that's stuck 575 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,440 Speaker 2: in my mind. This was from an interview I did 576 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 2: with Sarah Green Carmichael, who used to be the executive 577 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 2: editor of HBr, and she said, most people can generally 578 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 2: scrap the first two paragraphs and just get straight to 579 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,439 Speaker 2: the story. And that always stuck with me. And now 580 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,120 Speaker 2: whenever I'm writing my own articles, I'm like, well, could 581 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 2: could I just eliminate those first two paragraphs for you? Like? 582 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 2: What what are things that you're often seeing writers get 583 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 2: wrong when you're editing? I? 584 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,680 Speaker 1: Well, first, I would definitely agree with that advice. You 585 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 1: can lop the first two graphs off almost anything. And 586 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 1: you know, I think that you know what that speaks 587 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: to is is really just the power of you know, 588 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: being concise in our writing. You know, I think, you know, 589 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: every story can and should be shorter across the board, 590 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,920 Speaker 1: but you know, it really is a good practice in 591 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:47,440 Speaker 1: thinking through like well, how can I say this in 592 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 1: the fewest words possible? 593 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 3: So yes, like concision is like key. 594 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,119 Speaker 1: And I think something that you know, even you know, 595 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 1: I like struggle with all the time, but in a 596 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: more broad sense, I think something that I end up 597 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,880 Speaker 1: focusing a lot of my editing effort on is really 598 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 1: thinking through structure and organization. And that's, you know, to me, 599 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: that's a skill that I first learned in journalism school. 600 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: You know, we would do these exercises where where we 601 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 1: would just completely disassemble a story and then try to 602 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,639 Speaker 1: figure out why the writer put it back in the way. 603 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 3: That they did. 604 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,400 Speaker 1: And that's I think that's a skill that a lot 605 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:25,160 Speaker 1: of people aren't really working on developing. And I think 606 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,360 Speaker 1: that comes through when I get a story from from 607 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: a writer who I know really thought through the structure 608 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,640 Speaker 1: and the organization of the story and how things flow 609 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 1: together and why this paragraph is there, and why this 610 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: transition works or doesn't work. You know, it's pretty obvious 611 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 1: when you know, you see a story like that from 612 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,400 Speaker 1: someone who really put the thought in. And you know, conversely, 613 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 1: and I am extremely guilty of this, but you know, 614 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: sometimes you just kind of like start writing without a 615 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 1: whole lot of consideration given to the organization of the 616 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: overall piece, you know, especially for longer ones, and you 617 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 1: just kind of end up with something that is done 618 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 1: but may not necessarily fit together the way that would 619 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: best serve the story. And you know, I, I guess 620 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 1: I have definitely done that, But I think really being 621 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:08,920 Speaker 1: methodical and practical about the way stories fit together, you know, 622 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,160 Speaker 1: I think is a skill, and it's a very learnable skill, 623 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,479 Speaker 1: but I think it's something that you know, myself included, 624 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: we all just need to kind of like focus a 625 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: little bit more and just be more mindful of And 626 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: you know, it's difficult to think about that stuff because 627 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: you know, it requires a lot of very abstract thinking 628 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: and abstract organization, but the payoff is a mets. In 629 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 1: my own writing, I really do kind of try to 630 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 1: think about how things are structured and the way they 631 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,359 Speaker 1: fit together. But you know it's maybe I'm just you know, 632 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 1: overly obsessive about structured organization. But a well organized and 633 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 1: a well structured story you know, really does best serve 634 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:46,959 Speaker 1: the story, and it's one of those things that can 635 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: require a fair bit of effort and elbow grease to fix, 636 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: but it's always worth it, you know, thinking through structure 637 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 1: and thinking through flow, you know, has never wasted time. 638 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 2: I want to ask about headlines as well, because I 639 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:03,959 Speaker 2: feel like the headlines the Smarter Living are just so fantastic, 640 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 2: Like I want to click on all of them that 641 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 2: they're not You're like, you know, sort of click baity 642 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 2: headlines that you feel a bit dirty clicking on, Like 643 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 2: they're just so great, and I want to know what, why, 644 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 2: what does that look like crafting a great headline for 645 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 2: a story. 646 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: So they were a couple of years ago there was 647 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:26,320 Speaker 1: that site Upworthy. They pioneered the you know, kind of 648 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: viral headline. But the way that they wrote their headlines 649 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 1: was for every single story that they had, the writer 650 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 1: would literally write twenty five different versions of that headline, 651 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 1: which is definitely a little extreme and kind of far 652 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 1: on on that end of the spectrum, but you know, 653 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 1: the idea there is just that the first iteration of 654 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: a headline is probably not the best for the story. 655 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 1: So the act of just like going through and writing 656 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 1: out multiple variations and different framing and different angles to 657 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: find the one that best works is kind of a 658 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 1: time consuming and laborious process. But you know, like thinking 659 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 1: about structure, I think it's time that is never wasted 660 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 1: for smarter living. You know, we do think a lot 661 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: about headlines, and we do write out you know, we're 662 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: not writing out twenty five different versions, but we do 663 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: write out you know, multiple versions and multiple different ideas, 664 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: and you know, I work a lot with the writers 665 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 1: and crafting headlines and just thinking, you know, what is 666 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: the best way to serve the story and how do 667 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 1: we get that across to readers. So the practice of 668 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 1: literally just writing different versions, you know, it's a little tedious, 669 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: but you know, I think it's always worth it. You 670 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 1: spend so much time writing and editing and reporting on 671 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 1: the story that you know you need to I think 672 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 1: do the story justice by putting just as much energy into, 673 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: you know, writing headline that fits and that best serves 674 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: the story. 675 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 2: And where do you start with writing a headline? Like 676 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,240 Speaker 2: for someone that maybe has never written the headline, but 677 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 2: it's written their first article and they're trying to come 678 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 2: up with a headline, Like where where do you start, 679 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 2: are their tips? Are their words? Is there's certain language. 680 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 3: Like where do you start? 681 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 1: I think looking at it in the way that we 682 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 1: think about knut, which are you know, the crucial paragraph 683 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,479 Speaker 1: that kind of sets the tone and frame an idea 684 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: for the story. You know, I think looking at it 685 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 1: that way is really helpful. So thinking like, you know, 686 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 1: what's the one thing that you would want to tell 687 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: your friend about this story? You know, that can be 688 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 1: a good starting place for a headline. There are, you know, 689 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 1: different structures and different types of headlines, But you know, 690 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 1: once you can kind of figure out, like, what's the 691 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: thing that's really really important here? You know, once you 692 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: can suss out that idea, then you can kind of 693 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 1: start building out what an appropriate headline could be and 694 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: how the headline is going to be structured. But you 695 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 1: can't really get there unless you know what your story 696 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,719 Speaker 1: is saying. We run stories that you know, are are 697 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 1: a little easier to write headlines for sometimes. So for example, 698 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: if we have a how to guide, we can throw 699 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 1: a how to headline on there and that does best 700 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: serve the story. But we also write stories that are 701 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: not how to guides, and stories that are really difficult 702 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 1: to figure out headlines for and that's you know, when 703 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: it comes, you know, getting back to writing different versions 704 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: and really thinking through and being thoughtful about what's the 705 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 1: idea we're trying to convey and how do we do 706 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 1: that in a way the best of the story. You know, 707 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 1: it can be a pretty difficult process, and you know 708 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: we do go through a lot of iterations and definitely 709 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 1: hit walls. You know, you can't even get to that 710 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 1: process unless you truly know, like what the what you're 711 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: saying with this story. So really, you know, thinking through 712 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: on a very deep level, what is the actual point here? 713 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: You know, that's generally I think kind of the starting place. 714 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 3: Now. 715 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 2: You mentioned earlier that you love to procrastinate, and you've 716 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 2: published a lot of articles on the topic of procrastination 717 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 2: and smarter a living. I want to know, how do 718 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 2: you personally tackle procrastination? How do you overcome that in 719 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 2: your own life? 720 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 1: So we ran this beautiful, like twenty two hundred word 721 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 1: story about procrastination earlier this year, wonderful story by a 722 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 1: writer named Charlotte Lieberman, and it went really really deep 723 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: into kind of the sources of procrastination because you know, 724 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: I think you know It's easy to write off procrastination 725 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 1: as like, oh, like I just didn't feel like it, 726 00:32:57,960 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 1: or I was, you know, distracted, or you know, I 727 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 1: saw a tweet that sent me into a Wikipedia wormhole. 728 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 3: But and it's rot. 729 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 1: Procrastination really isn't about putting off a specific task. It's 730 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: associated a lot more with the emotions that we're having 731 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 1: regarding that task. And so if we're feeling anxiety about 732 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 1: a certain story, or you know, feel like it's just 733 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: too much, or it's too big for us, or it's 734 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: too difficult, a lot of those emotions are really kind 735 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 1: of the root of the procrastination rather than you know, 736 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 1: I you know, watched TV for three hours. 737 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 3: And so I think just coming to terms. 738 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: With that idea that procrastination isn't really about putting off 739 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: the task, but it's about wrestling with the emotions that 740 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: you have associated with that task. That's a really powerful realization. 741 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 1: And I, you know, my entire life, I've been such 742 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 1: an habitual procrastinator. 743 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,480 Speaker 3: I you know, I'm am notorious for it, but you. 744 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 1: Know, I think even just editing that story and working 745 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 1: on that story with Charlotte, you know, every line I read, 746 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, my god. 747 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 3: This is totally me. I had This is amazing. 748 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 1: I had no idea, and so like it's funny, like 749 00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: that story you like really did kind of help me 750 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 1: me reframe the way that I view procrastination and the 751 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,720 Speaker 1: way that I view what is preventing me from doing 752 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: certain things, you know, just being aware of that and 753 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 1: being cognizant of all the factors that go into why 754 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: we're procrastinating, for me, it was really powerful. And then 755 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 1: on a more practical level, you know, I think there 756 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:19,799 Speaker 1: are a lot of tactics that we can. 757 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 3: Use to stave off procrastination. 758 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 1: So for me, one of the things that I you know, 759 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:26,239 Speaker 1: when I know that I can't procrastinate on something I 760 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,920 Speaker 1: really need to get it done, I make myself accountable 761 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 1: to another person so that if I don't hit a 762 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 1: certain deadline, it's going to make their life more complicated. 763 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: And you know, more than you know finishing a story, 764 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 1: you know, making someone else unhappy is the things that 765 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 1: gives me most anxiety. And so then it's a matter of, 766 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 1: you know, instead of thinking I will do anything to 767 00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:50,719 Speaker 1: put off writing a story because I just don't want 768 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: to do it, it becomes a matter of I will 769 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: do anything to make sure I don't mess up this 770 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:55,919 Speaker 1: person's day. 771 00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 3: So I need to do this story. 772 00:34:58,080 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: And so just having kind of a system or a 773 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,719 Speaker 1: structure place where you know, I have others relying on 774 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,719 Speaker 1: my getting things done in time for me has been 775 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 1: really helpful. And then, you know, the other thing is 776 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,800 Speaker 1: trying to build out structures and habits into my general 777 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 1: day to day has been really helpful. Just having a 778 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 1: regular cadence of when I need to do a certain 779 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,880 Speaker 1: thing or you know, whatever the task is. You know, 780 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 1: knowing that it's just part of my regular routine is 781 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 1: really helpful. You know, trying to build habits around these 782 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,360 Speaker 1: things is such a powerful tool because you know, it 783 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 1: takes away the idea of self control or willpower. 784 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 3: You know, it's not you know, once you are able 785 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 3: to successfully build. 786 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 1: A habit and create a habit, willpower isn't even a factor, 787 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 1: you know, because you're just not thinking about it, You're 788 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 1: just doing it, and you know that is it's it's 789 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 1: such a powerful tool and something that I you know, 790 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 1: really have tried to do a lot of what are. 791 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 2: Some of the most powerful habits that you've created that 792 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 2: go into a typical working day for you. 793 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 1: So Adam Grant is uh one of my favorite people 794 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:01,920 Speaker 1: in the world. He's a professor Wharton. He's you know, 795 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:04,360 Speaker 1: writes books, you know, writes for me at the New 796 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 1: York Times, writes for all kinds of outlets on top 797 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:07,400 Speaker 1: of having a family. 798 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:07,840 Speaker 3: You know. 799 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 1: The dude that's insane how much he actually gets done. 800 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: And it's I've just always marveled at him. He's a 801 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,320 Speaker 1: total genius. But we we got lunch together like a 802 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,239 Speaker 1: year and a half ago, and you know, we're just 803 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:22,520 Speaker 1: talking about process and creative output and how everybody. 804 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:22,719 Speaker 3: Gets things done. 805 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,279 Speaker 1: And he said that one of the things that he 806 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,359 Speaker 1: does when he is writing a book is that he'll 807 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,359 Speaker 1: wake up every morning and for half an hour every 808 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:33,800 Speaker 1: single morning, he just writes. You know, it's he's not 809 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,439 Speaker 1: you know, sort of writing and sort of has TV 810 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:38,319 Speaker 1: and that on the background, or sort of looking at 811 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:41,279 Speaker 1: his phone. He's just writing. And it's only half an hour. 812 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:43,799 Speaker 1: It's not that much of a commitment, but he does 813 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 1: it every single day. And like, you know, that to 814 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 1: me felt like you know, like I e've been saying 815 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 1: like one of these like duh sort of revelations. But 816 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,840 Speaker 1: that was a system that allowed him to write multiple 817 00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,320 Speaker 1: books and be a professor and have a family and 818 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:00,800 Speaker 1: write for news outlets, and so that was something that 819 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 1: I that I did actually kind of try to steal 820 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 1: a little bit. And so I am sort of the opposite. 821 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:08,880 Speaker 1: My most productive time and the times that I am 822 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 1: and I am able to really focus is usually later 823 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 1: in the day. So every afternoon, you know, I try to, 824 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 1: you know, unless I have something inflicting, you know, really 825 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 1: try to do writing and just try to make a 826 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:21,839 Speaker 1: habit out of it. And you know, it's another thing 827 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 1: that I know, you know, when the time comes around, 828 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,320 Speaker 1: it's not like I need to force myself to do it. 829 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 1: It's just like a habit that I know that I 830 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,120 Speaker 1: have to do. And you know, it's not that much 831 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 1: of a commitment, but over time, you know, it just 832 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,880 Speaker 1: becomes something that allows you to get so much done. 833 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:41,280 Speaker 1: And I really so I just finished a book proposal, 834 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,360 Speaker 1: and that was basically how I was able to finish. 835 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,839 Speaker 1: Like it had been sitting around kind of half done 836 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 1: for about a year, and then in the last few 837 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:54,360 Speaker 1: weeks I actually started to think about like, okay, like 838 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 1: let's just get this done, get it out. 839 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 3: That doesn't have to be perfect. It just has to 840 00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 3: be done. 841 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,600 Speaker 1: And so like I did like carve out in the evenings, 842 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 1: like specific time every day where I was just going 843 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,759 Speaker 1: to work on the book. And at first it was like, 844 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:07,640 Speaker 1: you know, kind of like felt like I was dragging 845 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:09,400 Speaker 1: myself to it and I didn't really want to do it, 846 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,399 Speaker 1: and I was tired or grouchy or whatever. 847 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,759 Speaker 3: But over time it just became a normal part of 848 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 3: my routine. 849 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,439 Speaker 1: And you know, that is literally how I was able 850 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:20,799 Speaker 1: to finally finish this proposal that's been sitting half done 851 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 1: for a year. You know, it just took the effort 852 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,240 Speaker 1: to try to create a habit and then just follow 853 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:25,759 Speaker 1: through with it. 854 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:31,719 Speaker 2: That's fantastic. Now I have two final questions. Firstly, I 855 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,719 Speaker 2: want to know what have been your favorite articles that 856 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,359 Speaker 2: you've published on Smarter Living this year so far. There's 857 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,719 Speaker 2: sort of like a handful maybe that have stood out 858 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 2: to you or that have impacted you really meaningfully. 859 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 1: So definitely the procrastination story that I mentioned earlier, it's just, 860 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,880 Speaker 1: I mean, aside from being like incredibly practical and incredibly helpful, 861 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 1: it's just a beautiful, thoughtful piece of journalism, you know, 862 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:58,240 Speaker 1: which is wonderfully written and it just is a pleasure 863 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 1: to read, and you also learned a whole lot about yourself. 864 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:02,759 Speaker 1: So that's definitely one of my favorites. A couple of 865 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 1: others came during a week in March where every so 866 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:09,359 Speaker 1: often and Smart Living I will do a themed week, 867 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,799 Speaker 1: and so this past March I ran a themed week 868 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:17,560 Speaker 1: around time and attention management. And the whole week, you know, 869 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:19,799 Speaker 1: we were publishing credible stories about, you know, being more 870 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,120 Speaker 1: protective and managing your time better and being more thoughtful 871 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 1: about how we're shark card days. But at the end 872 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,000 Speaker 1: of the week, I publish a story from Adam Grant 873 00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:31,319 Speaker 1: actually about why time management is kind of the wrong 874 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,279 Speaker 1: way to think about it. Really, we should be looking 875 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 1: at it from the perspective of attention management. And so 876 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,960 Speaker 1: then the idea becomes less about scheduling your day and 877 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 1: you know, making sure that you know you have everything 878 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:46,200 Speaker 1: lined up and you know you know what you're doing 879 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 1: it this time. Rather it's just more thinking about, like 880 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 1: how do I devote the mental space and cognitive effort 881 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,440 Speaker 1: to the things that I want to be devoting that 882 00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:58,880 Speaker 1: energy to. And so you're a little less focused on 883 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,560 Speaker 1: scheduling X minutes or x hours to do you know 884 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,279 Speaker 1: me for me, for example, to do writing when it's 885 00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 1: more thinking about I want to carve out time where 886 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,520 Speaker 1: I'm able to devote the emotional and mental energy to 887 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,120 Speaker 1: something that I believe in. Whether that fits with a 888 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 1: strict time schedule, maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. But 889 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:21,759 Speaker 1: being thoughtful about where you're spending your energy rather than 890 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,359 Speaker 1: where you're spending your time was, you know, just kind 891 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:26,680 Speaker 1: of like a huge light came on. That was I think, 892 00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,200 Speaker 1: just such a powerful idea that I think we don't 893 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,600 Speaker 1: really consider when we talk about productivity. You know, there's 894 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:37,279 Speaker 1: a lot of focus on devoting the proper amount of 895 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:40,319 Speaker 1: time to things, when really I think it's so much 896 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:44,040 Speaker 1: more helpful to think about devoting the right attention to things, 897 00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:46,600 Speaker 1: you know. I think it just really unlocks a lot 898 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,280 Speaker 1: of ability to be more creative and be more thoughtful 899 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:52,799 Speaker 1: about things that we really want to be a part 900 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:53,600 Speaker 1: of and be involved in. 901 00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:56,920 Speaker 2: I would say I loved both those articles and I 902 00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:01,040 Speaker 2: will link to those in the show notes. Final question, Tim, 903 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:03,680 Speaker 2: if people want to consume more of what you're putting 904 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:05,719 Speaker 2: out into the world, how can they find. 905 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,240 Speaker 3: You so you can see everything? 906 00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:10,080 Speaker 1: The Smarter Living does at and wytimes dot com slash 907 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,200 Speaker 1: Smarter Living. You can subscribe to the Smarter Living newsletter 908 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:17,640 Speaker 1: at NYTimes dot com slash sl newsletter. You can follow 909 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:21,000 Speaker 1: me on Twitter I'm at Tim Herrera. I'm on LinkedIn. 910 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:24,000 Speaker 1: You can follow me there, and yeah, those are kind 911 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:25,279 Speaker 1: of the best ways to see what we're up to. 912 00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,360 Speaker 2: Fantastic Tim, I've love chatting to you. Thank you so 913 00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:30,480 Speaker 2: much for your time, thank you, thanks for having me, 914 00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:33,560 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed 915 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,359 Speaker 2: that interview. And I've linked to a few of those 916 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,080 Speaker 2: articles that Tim referred to in the show notes. WI 917 00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:45,000 Speaker 2: chorewell worth a read. And if you have listened to 918 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,200 Speaker 2: today but you're not a subscriber to How I Work, 919 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,600 Speaker 2: hit the subscribe button and you will be notified whenever 920 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,320 Speaker 2: a new episode is released. So that's it for today 921 00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:55,799 Speaker 2: and I'll see you next time.