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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, it's about saying that you have to be so

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Speaker 2: well regulated yourself when your children have big emotions that

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Speaker 2: you can hold together, not catch their cranky, not catch

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Speaker 2: their chaos, not to catch their crazy, just try to

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Speaker 2: help them catch your car.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mom

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 2: So I'm in the shops the other day trying to

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Speaker 2: find one of our children who is not where she

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Speaker 2: told me she would be at the time that she

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Speaker 2: told me that she would be there. But she doesn't

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Speaker 2: have a SIM card in her phone because she can't

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Speaker 2: pay for a phone, so therefore she doesn't have one.

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Speaker 2: She just has one that she uses at home now

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Speaker 2: and then, so I can't contact her. Apart from that,

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Speaker 2: because I know I can't contact her, I don't have

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Speaker 2: my phone anyway, so I can't contact anyone about anything.

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Speaker 2: And I'm feeling lost, and I'm starting to get angry, No,

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Speaker 2: not angry, just feeling discomfort and feeling a little bit annoyed.

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Speaker 2: I've been waiting for ten minutes she hasn't shown up.

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Speaker 2: And this man walks over to me wearing a beard.

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Speaker 2: Wearing a beard, Well, that's what you do, you wear

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Speaker 2: a beard. You don't know he's bearded wearing glasses, and

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Speaker 2: he says Justin Coulson, and I said, yeah, yeah, that's me.

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Speaker 2: And I'm still looking worried, and I'm looking past him

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Speaker 2: and over his shoulder and around the corner, trying to

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Speaker 2: find this daughter of ours who's not showing up. And

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Speaker 2: he says, Oh, my name's Ian. I just want to

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Speaker 2: let you know what a difference she've made in our

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Speaker 2: families lives. Like my wife, she's just over here with

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Speaker 2: my mother in law and our baby, and what a

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Speaker 2: difference they've got like three or four year old. And

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Speaker 2: he's just being so kind to me about how I've helped,

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Speaker 2: and I'm looking at him going, just don't follow me

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Speaker 2: right now, because I've got a cranky look on my

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Speaker 2: face because i have a daughter who's not here, and

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Speaker 2: I'm feeling a little bit stressed right now. And he said, well,

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Speaker 2: you've taught us how to be gentle parents, and I'm

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Speaker 2: sure that you'll be gentle when you find her. And

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Speaker 2: I was. I was very gentle when she finally showed up.

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Speaker 2: Twenty minutes late, but he got me thinking. I said

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Speaker 2: that I'd taught him all about gentle parenting, and that's

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Speaker 2: not something that I really promote. It's not something that

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Speaker 2: I talk about. I don't argue in any way, shape

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Speaker 2: or form that I'm a gentle parenting advocate, because I'm

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Speaker 2: all about well in the paring revolution, I'm all about

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Speaker 2: the need supportive parenting style that I've written about at length.

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Speaker 2: But it got me thinking gentle parenting is really everywhere,

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Speaker 2: and there's an awful lot in common with what I

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Speaker 2: share and what gentle parenting seems to be. But while

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Speaker 2: I was thinking about that, I was doing some googling

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Speaker 2: and found an article that was in the Sinning Morning

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Speaker 2: Herald a couple of months ago from Samantha Selena Morris,

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Speaker 2: the host of that Please Explain podcast, and Samantha basically

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Speaker 2: said gentle parenting is making kids helpless, which made me think,

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Speaker 2: I wonder what other criticisms there are of gentle parenting

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Speaker 2: out there. I'm a critic at times of some elements

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Speaker 2: of gentle parenting, and so Kylie. I've done some research,

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Speaker 2: well not the real true academic research, but I've done

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Speaker 2: some googling I've done some googling. Here are the criticisms

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Speaker 2: of gentle parenting, and I thought we could talk about

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Speaker 2: them and then describe whether the criticisms are valid or invalid,

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Speaker 2: and what we can do in our parenting to be

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Speaker 2: better regardless of what we want to call our parenting style.

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Speaker 3: How many criticisms do you have?

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Speaker 2: I came up with five, five as I was looking

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Speaker 2: around and trying to find ideas. Five criticisms of gentle parenting.

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Speaker 3: Okay, what are you five?

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Speaker 2: Number one people accuse gentle parents of being permissive. The

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Speaker 2: kids can get away with anything, no limits, no boundaries.

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Speaker 2: All that matters is the kid's emotions. And if the

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Speaker 2: kids are having a hard time, that's okay. You just

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Speaker 2: don't let them do anything. You see, Bill, those big,

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Speaker 2: horrible negative emotions.

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Speaker 3: Will you see this really play out in young kids specifically, well, yes,

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Speaker 3: gentle parenting, Yes, big emotions. They've stolen a toy and

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Speaker 3: mom and dad, you know, coddle.

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Speaker 2: Them and got to come in and fix everything up.

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Speaker 2: We also saw it in parental Guidance when it was

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Speaker 2: time for the photo shoot, the family photo shoot. It

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Speaker 2: was literally in episode one and our gentle parents, they

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Speaker 2: had a particularly tough time. I'm just going to come

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Speaker 2: sit with you. Okay, he.

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Speaker 3: What is it?

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Speaker 2: They don't know?

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Speaker 3: We're not going to be.

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Speaker 2: Hitting your children. To me, showed zero respect for you.

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Speaker 2: You've picked up one of your children and they smacked you.

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Speaker 2: How do you deal with your kids smacking you? I

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Speaker 2: see no respect.

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Speaker 3: I see no discipline.

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Speaker 1: Mate.

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Speaker 3: If any of my kids struck at me, that's not okay.

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Speaker 2: So that's the first criticism that seems to come from

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Speaker 2: people who are unhappy with the whole gentle parenting thing.

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Speaker 2: It's just lets the kids get away with whatever they want.

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Speaker 2: What's number two, it's not gentle on parents. And what

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Speaker 2: I mean by that is to be a quote unquote

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Speaker 2: gentle parent, or if we extended into any of the

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Speaker 2: more child oriented parenting styles, it means that it takes

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Speaker 2: a lot. It takes a big toll on us. It

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Speaker 2: is harder to parent like that for us, especially in

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Speaker 2: the short term, that it is to be more authoritarian.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Well, I'm just going to put it out there

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Speaker 3: that if you were looking for gentle in your life,

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Speaker 3: that becoming a parent probably was not the right thing.

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Speaker 2: But you don't know that before. You just see these

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Speaker 2: little angels being cuddled by their mummies and think, oh,

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Speaker 2: I want to hold that baby. I want to do

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Speaker 2: that as well.

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Speaker 3: Parenting in general is not gentle.

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Speaker 2: To gladiate a sport. Isn't it so hard? Tough enough?

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Speaker 2: Is that what you're saying.

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Speaker 3: I'm not saying tough enough. I'm just acknowledging that, regardless

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Speaker 3: of what style you go with, parenting is not gentle

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Speaker 3: on us. It is hard because it puts a mirror

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Speaker 3: up to ourselves in all the things that we wish

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Speaker 3: we weren't.

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Speaker 2: I guess the criticism really is or where we lack.

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Speaker 2: It's about saying that you have to be so well

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Speaker 2: regulated yourself, no matter how hungry or angry or lonely,

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Speaker 2: a tired, or stressed you are, you have to be

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Speaker 2: so well regulated yourself when your children have big emotions

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Speaker 2: that you can hold it together. Not catch their cranky,

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Speaker 2: not catch their chaos, not to catch their crazy, just

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Speaker 2: try to help them catch your calm.

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Speaker 3: I get that, but I also think it's important for

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Speaker 3: us kids to recognize that we don't keep our calm

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Speaker 3: all the time.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well, I'm gonna talk about that in a sec and.

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Speaker 3: How we deal with the repair at the other end.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, great stuff, that's important. It is, it is absolutely

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Speaker 2: Number three. Quite often kids don't know what they're feeling,

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Speaker 2: and so therefore the criticism is why you're spending all

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Speaker 2: this time on feelings with kids who don't know what

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Speaker 2: feelings are and don't know what they're feeling.

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Speaker 3: Number four the.

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Speaker 2: Next criticism that I found as I googled, and I

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Speaker 2: really actually resonated with this one. I mean, I have

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Speaker 2: some pretty strong arguments against several of the criticisms that

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Speaker 2: we've heard, but this one. Empathy for your child often

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Speaker 2: demonstrates a lack of empathy for the people around you.

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Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to dissecting that one a little. What's

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Speaker 3: number five?

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Speaker 2: So this was the headline of the Sydney Morning Herald

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Speaker 2: article that got me perplexed about this following my conversation

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Speaker 2: with Ian, and it was that if you're a gentle parent,

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Speaker 2: that you're raising your children to be helpless. Now I

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Speaker 2: read Sam's article and she actually got it wrong. She

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Speaker 2: was really talking more about helicopter parenting than gentle parenting.

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Speaker 2: She conflated the two. But I think it's worth spending

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Speaker 2: just a minute or two on each of these criticisms

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Speaker 2: of gentle parenting. Not that I'm an apologist for gentle parents,

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Speaker 2: not that I'm here to advocate for gentle parenting, but

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Speaker 2: just to emphasize how important it is that we recognize

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Speaker 2: the good and the bad and that we get this

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Speaker 2: stuff right because so much of it actually does tie

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Speaker 2: in with what need. Supportive parenting is the stuff that

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Speaker 2: I talk about because it is a very nice way

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Speaker 2: to raise your kids.

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Speaker 3: Well, if we go back to number one, we got permissiveness.

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Speaker 3: Can I just put it out there that you could

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Speaker 3: be any number of parenting styles and still have a

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Speaker 3: permissive attitude towards certain.

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Speaker 2: Things totally like free range parents unquestionably are oriented in

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Speaker 2: that direction. It really is, It really is a thing.

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Speaker 2: But if you think that permissive is part of gentle parenting,

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Speaker 2: then you just don't understand what that parenting style is about.

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Speaker 2: What gentle parents do is they work on the emotional

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Speaker 2: state of their children and help them to get equilibrium

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Speaker 2: and balance, and then they do the problem solving the limits,

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Speaker 2: setting the boundary discussions, and make sure that the kids

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Speaker 2: get what's expected and what's not So for people who

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Speaker 2: are saying gentle parents don't have any limits or boundaries.

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Speaker 2: They're permissive. That just comes down to a fundamental misunderstanding

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Speaker 2: of what gentle parenting is.

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Speaker 3: Number two was an acknowledgment that gentle parenting isn't gentle

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Speaker 3: on our parents, especially our mums.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that this is actually a reasonable criticism.

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Speaker 2: We have got to be all things to all people

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Speaker 2: all the time, and it's hard to be balanced. It's

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Speaker 2: hard to be calm, especially when you've got way too

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Speaker 2: much going on, not nearly enough time to get it

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Speaker 2: all done, no money to pay for it all, and

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Speaker 2: it's all feeling. Oh and you've got three kids who

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Speaker 2: are having a big screaming banshee fight, meltdown, chaos, craziness

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Speaker 2: thing happening in the next room.

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Speaker 3: So can I ask a question? Yeap, Is it any

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Speaker 3: easier to be angry all the time?

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Speaker 2: No, it's not. That's really important, And I was going

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Speaker 2: to contradict myself a little bit just before you ask

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Speaker 2: the question and say that the alternative is no better.

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Speaker 2: And in fact, if we can be gentle to the kids,

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Speaker 2: if we can work with them on their emotional state,

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Speaker 2: what we're typically going to do is build up our

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Speaker 2: children's and our own emotional intelligence and therefore our emotional resilience,

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Speaker 2: and over time we will get better at it and

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Speaker 2: it will be gentle. Honest, I think that that criticism

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Speaker 2: is completely unwarranted. But I also think it's important that

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Speaker 2: we get real with ourselves and every now and again

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Speaker 2: just acknowledge the reality of humanity, which is that sometimes

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Speaker 2: this stuff is hard, and sometimes we're going to get

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Speaker 2: it wrong, and sometimes everyone is just having a big

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Speaker 2: emotional moment and a dummy toys out of the court,

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Speaker 2: take my bat and ball going home. Sometimes life is

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Speaker 2: like that as well.

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Speaker 3: If our kids don't see a full range of emotions,

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Speaker 3: then they actually don't have any reference point to deal

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Speaker 3: with it when they see it down in the big world.

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Speaker 3: If we live in this little utopia bubble, and I

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Speaker 3: don't know anyone who does, but if we live there,

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Speaker 3: the first time our kids come up against somebody who

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Speaker 3: is really angry, that will shake them.

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Speaker 2: To the core. I want to extend what you've just

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Speaker 2: said a little bit and highlight it's not just you

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Speaker 2: said the full range of emotions, but your conversation has

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Speaker 2: focused on being frustrated and angry. What our children really

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Speaker 2: need to be exposed to is an expansive emotional vocabulary,

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Speaker 2: because your emotional world can only only be as big

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Speaker 2: as the words you have to describe it. Yeah, And

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Speaker 2: so our job really is to sit with our children

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Speaker 2: and say, what does it feel like now, calm, contented

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Speaker 2: or maybe pensive. Start to expand their emotional vocabulary. Let

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Speaker 2: them know that they can be a gas, they can

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Speaker 2: be enraged, they can be depressed, they can be sedentary

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Speaker 2: or sedate.

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Speaker 3: Like maybe when they say they're happy, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what is happy?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, the other day you were happy when the

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Speaker 3: puppy you know, did a trick at the beach or whatever,

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Speaker 3: and today you're happy because of this? Like, how does

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Speaker 3: today feel different to the other day.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of like I love ice cream and I

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Speaker 2: love mum. Well, what's the difference between loving ice cream

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Speaker 2: and loving mom? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: And so maybe the other day what you are actually

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Speaker 3: feeling and giving them options there and today might not

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Speaker 3: even be happy. Maybe today is and giving them added

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Speaker 3: emotions to play with, right to sit with.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I guess that's and this kind of ties

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Speaker 2: in with our next one as well, and that is

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Speaker 2: that they don't know what they're feeling when we expand

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Speaker 2: emotional vocabularies, we expand emotional range and emotional experience, we

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Speaker 2: build emotional intelligence, and ironically, we start to learn what

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Speaker 2: we're feeling. So people who will say I'll stop being

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Speaker 2: a gentle parent, this isn't working. This is ridiculous. Your

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Speaker 2: children don't know it. Well, how are they going to

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Speaker 2: know it unless you do this with them. The emotion coaching,

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Speaker 2: the emotional conversations are really important. But I love this.

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Speaker 2: This is a metaphor that Lisa Damore uses in her

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Speaker 2: book The Emotional Lives of Teenagers. She actually gives credits

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Speaker 2: to one of her colleagues, but I can't remember the

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Speaker 2: name of her colleagues, so Lisa Damore gets the credit.

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Speaker 2: In this conversation, she says this, it's really important. She says,

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Speaker 2: emotions matter. They give us valuable information. But imagine you've

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Speaker 2: got a board of directors running a business. You don't

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Speaker 2: let your emotional member chair the board. You make sure

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Speaker 2: that the planning and strategy guy or girl is chairing

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Speaker 2: the board. Emotions get a seat at the table, but

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Speaker 2: they don't share the board. They pass on relevant information,

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Speaker 2: but they don't share the board. And I think that

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Speaker 2: is perhaps what the whole gentle parenting emotionally intelligent parenting

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Speaker 2: movement is really all about. It's about saying, let's take

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Speaker 2: this information, let's build it into our decision making processes,

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Speaker 2: but let's make sure and this is a valid criticism

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Speaker 2: some people really do because they I'm going to say,

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Speaker 2: they panned to their children's emotions rather than coach their

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Speaker 2: children through their emotions. There's a big difference, and I've

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Speaker 2: seen both when we're pandering when we're living. Our children

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Speaker 2: have all of the emotions all the time for way

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Speaker 2: too long without the coaching that helps them to settle,

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Speaker 2: and then the problem solving that comes subsequent to that.

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Speaker 2: What we are doing is we are elevating emotions to

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Speaker 2: a level that they shouldn't be, and that will come

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Speaker 2: back to bidas. That is a reasonable criticism of gentle

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Speaker 2: parenting done wrong.

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Speaker 3: So just recently we had an experience. We have one

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Speaker 3: of our children in particular, is very emotional, big emotions

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Speaker 3: in lots of different ways.

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Speaker 2: And much emotion, and so recently.

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Speaker 3: I decided to take her to a kinesiologist and as

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Speaker 3: part of that process, she kind of just helped us

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Speaker 3: to understand why there was so much big emotion. And

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Speaker 3: so since then, I've noticed a massive shift in this child,

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Speaker 3: to the point that we had pretty much a whole

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Speaker 3: week almost without any big emotion, Like it was like,

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Speaker 3: this is massive for this child. But towards the end

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Speaker 3: of the week, things started to escalate again, and I

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Speaker 3: sat down with her and I just I said to her,

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Speaker 3: I said, what's going on? I said, We've had a really,

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Speaker 3: really good week, and I said, and things just seemed

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Speaker 3: to be unraveling a little bit. And she said, I've

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Speaker 3: already told you what's wrong. And I said, can you

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Speaker 3: tell me again? And she explained that something had happened

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Speaker 3: on Friday at school and it's just sat with her

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Speaker 3: over the weekend and it's, you know, she's been mulling

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Speaker 3: over it, and obviously the more she's thought about it,

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Speaker 3: the bigger it's God in her head. And so we

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Speaker 3: were able to talk about just what a gift it

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Speaker 3: is when her emotions start to get big. It's actually

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Speaker 3: an acknowledgement that there's something that needs to be done.

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Speaker 3: It's actually if we can see that emotion literally as

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Speaker 3: a gift to highlight that there's something we need to

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Speaker 3: address or work on, it changes everything.

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Speaker 2: It really does.

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Speaker 3: It changes everything and she was able to kind of

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Speaker 3: we had a big embrace.

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Speaker 2: I put some.

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Speaker 3: Oils on her and said, you know, I love you

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Speaker 3: and just you need to remember that in spite of

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Speaker 3: the challenge that you've had here, there are people that

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Speaker 3: love you for you, and that's that's what you need

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Speaker 3: to focus on.

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Speaker 2: The gentle, compassionate approach, the need supportive approach makes such

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Speaker 2: a difference. Now we have two more things to talk about.

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Speaker 2: We're almost out of time. So which one was the

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Speaker 2: next one we were talking about?

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Speaker 3: Oh, empathy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so when we get empathic with a child, sometimes

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Speaker 2: that leads to a lack of empathy for other people

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Speaker 2: around you. So just quickly, like if you're at a

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Speaker 2: restaurant or in a shopping center or in a park

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Speaker 2: and your child is having a meltdown, yes you do

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Speaker 2: need to be gentle with them, but that doesn't necessarily

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Speaker 2: mean that that is the time and place to go

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Speaker 2: through the entire process. Sometimes look around, read the room.

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Speaker 2: It might be worth saying, I know you're really upset

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Speaker 2: and we need to deal with this, but let's go

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Speaker 2: for a walk outside, or let's move over there, or

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Speaker 2: let's move away from these people, or.

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Speaker 3: There's times where I've had to say to the kids,

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Speaker 3: I know that you're really upset and I want to

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Speaker 3: talk with you about this, but I can't do that

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Speaker 3: right now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's going to depend on the age of

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Speaker 2: your child as to that.

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Speaker 3: We can just move through this as best we can

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Speaker 3: now and you and I can spend some time later tonight.

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Speaker 2: I guess the real point here is empathy for others

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Speaker 2: needs to be considered. It's not just about you and

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Speaker 2: your child. It's kind of like those people who walk

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Speaker 2: around and they're having conversations on speakerphone. It was like, no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: we don't care. We don't want you to have this conversation,

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Speaker 2: and we don't only hear the conversation. Take it somewhere else.

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Speaker 2: You can empathically and gently kick it down the road,

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Speaker 2: or move your child elsewhere so that you can show

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Speaker 2: consideration for others.

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Speaker 3: And your last one is this notion of raising kids

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Speaker 3: to be helpless.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is again, this is what Samantha Sell

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Speaker 2: and Jamorris said in the Cinemony Herald. Like I said,

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Speaker 2: she conflated helicopter parenting with gentle parenting, and it kind

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Speaker 2: of well, well, this just highlights how much people struggle

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Speaker 2: to get it right. But she does quote from Judith Locke,

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Speaker 2: who wrote The Bond Side Child, and I think that

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Speaker 2: she said something that was it sounds like it's a

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Speaker 2: bit of tough love, but I kind of like what

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Speaker 2: she said. Judith Locke said, we've kind of written a

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Speaker 2: script for kids where everybody else is responsible for making

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Speaker 2: you feel better. She says, I think it's the current

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Speaker 2: environment in which we always emphasize care in these situations

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Speaker 2: as opposed to slowly introducing demands or expectations and opportunities

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Speaker 2: for them to overcome it. Now, I don't want to

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Speaker 2: turn this into a tough enough princess conversation. That's not

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Speaker 2: what it is.

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Speaker 3: I don't think you need to, though. I think about

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Speaker 3: the three c's that you talk about regularly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, these are the three basic psychological needs, and

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Speaker 2: we've alliterated them. It's not technical what they are.

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Speaker 3: But you've got connection, yep, you've got competence, and you've

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Speaker 3: got sense of control, a sense of control. If we're

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Speaker 3: able to look at how we're able to meet each

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Speaker 3: of those needs. What I love about a true gentle

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Speaker 3: parent approach is that we're doing this in a way

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Speaker 3: that supports our children's autonomy. We're acknowledging that they're a

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Speaker 3: human who has rights, feelings, emotions, and desires, wants needs.

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Speaker 2: So it all comes back to and you Deith Block

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Speaker 2: has said it, although not in these words, if we

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Speaker 2: can help our kids to get to get their head

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Speaker 2: around their emotional state and pull it back together, then

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Speaker 2: we can begin to slowly introduce demands and expectations and

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Speaker 2: opportunit and is for them to overcome it. We do

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Speaker 2: need to help them to learn about those emotions though.

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Speaker 2: That's the core of need. Supportive parenting and gentle parenting

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Speaker 2: overlaps really nicely with it. I just think we need

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Speaker 2: to stop the bashing up though of gentle parenting and

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Speaker 2: gentle parents. These parents who are really involved and invested

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Speaker 2: in their kids' well being and growth and development, and

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Speaker 2: if they do it right, I think, well, well, we

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Speaker 2: don't have any research on gentle parenting. We've got plenty

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Speaker 2: of research on several aspects of it we ay all

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Speaker 2: point in a positive direction.

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Speaker 3: We've got years and years of research that supports the

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Speaker 3: parenting styles that we grew up with, which were very different.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, very different.

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Speaker 3: And an absolute lack of emotional vocabulary to suggest that

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Speaker 3: while this might not be the golden standard, where leagues

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Speaker 3: ahead of where we were.

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Speaker 2: So I'm just going to say generations ago. I'm just

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Speaker 2: going to say it.

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Speaker 3: What are you going to say?

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Speaker 2: Gentle parenting is not going to ruin your kids? Really,

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Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 2: The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Rowland for

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Speaker 2: Bridge Media. We appreciate Craig Bruce, our executive producer, for

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Speaker 2: helping to make the show great. If you're enjoying the show,

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Speaker 2: please share it with your friends. We love it when

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Speaker 2: you pass on the word that The Happy Famili's podcasting

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Speaker 2: is making an impact in your family. Thank you so

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Speaker 2: much for everyone who shares it. For more information about

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Speaker 2: making your family happy, we'd love for you to visit

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Speaker 2: us at our Facebook or Instagram Doctor Justin Courson's Happy Families,

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