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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. Today, I'm

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Speaker 1: speaking with Craig Roussou, a psychologist with over twenty years

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Speaker 1: of experience specializing in men's mental health. Craig works with

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Speaker 1: Someone Health and is one of the experts behind the

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Speaker 1: Mental Maintenance Manual. It's a free and practical guide that's

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Speaker 1: designed to help Aussie men service their mental health the

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Speaker 1: same way that they'd service their car. I like that

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Speaker 1: with nearly half of Australian men experiencing anxiety or depression

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Speaker 1: in their lifetime, but few of them one in five

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Speaker 1: seeking help, and unfortunately, three quarters of suicide deaths in

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Speaker 1: Australia being male. This conversation ties directly into themes that

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Speaker 1: I'm exploring in my upcoming book Boys, which is going

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Speaker 1: to be out in June. Last week had a chat

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Speaker 1: with Brisbane Boys College Principal Andre Cassen about raising great boys.

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Speaker 1: Today we're talking about what keeps men silent, the tools

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Speaker 1: that will actually work, and how we help boys and

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Speaker 1: men to build healthier models of masculinity. Craig Rousso next

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Speaker 1: on the Happy Families podcast. Hello and welcome to the

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Speaker 1: Happy Families podcast, where you get real parenting solutions every

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Speaker 1: single day. This is Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. Money's

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Speaker 1: not to Justin Coulson and today Craig Rosso, who has

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Speaker 1: been working around the mental health space twenty years, specializing

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Speaker 1: in men's mental health. It's so good of you to

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Speaker 1: join me on the pod to talk about this today, Craig,

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Speaker 1: thanks for being here.

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Speaker 2: NOL doesn't appreciate you having me looking forward to the chat.

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Speaker 1: Tell me in brief, because Australia doesn't do a great

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Speaker 1: job in collecting high quality data, what are the latest

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Speaker 1: figures around Australian men and mental health.

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Speaker 3: It is a really important question, mate, because almost half

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Speaker 3: fuzzy blokes will experience mental health issues in their lives,

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Speaker 3: but lessen one imply, I think it's about twelve percent

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Speaker 3: will actually take this step of getting some support.

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Speaker 2: They're more likely and about eighty.

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Speaker 3: Percent will go to a GP when they're in crisis

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Speaker 3: or experiencing significant psychological distress.

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Speaker 2: But unfortunately, less than a.

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Speaker 3: Half of those guys will actually take that next step

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Speaker 3: and seek out some support. We're very fortunate in this

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Speaker 3: day and age to have access to a lot more services.

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Speaker 3: We've got online services tallyhealth and helplines, but about eighty

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Speaker 3: percent of blokes are indicating that they wouldn't use that

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Speaker 3: as a support type. And unfortunately, there are about seven

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Speaker 3: suicides from men in Australia a day. That makes up

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Speaker 3: about seventy five percent of our suicide So despite what

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Speaker 3: is a really growing and big issue, unfortunately Ausie blokes's

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Speaker 3: just not getting the health that they need.

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Speaker 1: So there are a couple of things that I want

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Speaker 1: to pick up on with what you've said. First off,

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Speaker 1: the mental health industrial complex makes a big deal about

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Speaker 1: how much depression anxiety is out there, how many mental

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Speaker 1: health challenges, how much psychological stress is out there, and

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Speaker 1: everywhere you go, every time you go into the bathroom,

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Speaker 1: standard of urine or whatever it is, there's going to

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Speaker 1: be a post to telling you that if you've got

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Speaker 1: these signs, then you could have a mental health challenge.

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Speaker 1: How much do you think that the mental health industrial

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Speaker 1: complex is I get that awareness matters, and I'm a

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Speaker 1: really big supporter of that. I'm an ambassador for several

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Speaker 1: organizations that are about raising awareness. But sometimes I feel

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Speaker 1: like raising awareness can amplify a problem that may not

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Speaker 1: be there, that we can get false positives or that

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Speaker 1: we can drag people into something that they might not

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Speaker 1: have had if they didn't start getting worried about whether

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Speaker 1: or not they should be worried about whether they should

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Speaker 1: worry about having that thing. What's your response to that.

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Speaker 3: I think it's a really good question. The first thing

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Speaker 3: that bumped into my mind is this perception that people

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Speaker 3: have that if they talk about suicide as an example,

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Speaker 3: and particularly suicide for this example, then it's going to

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Speaker 3: exacerbate that sentiment. It's going to mean that they experience

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Speaker 3: more suicide ideation or their higher risk of suicide.

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Speaker 2: But research has shown that that's actually not the case.

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Speaker 3: You know, really importantly, it's more appropriate for somebody to

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Speaker 3: talk to someone about that the stress and you know,

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Speaker 3: the experience that they're going through in terms of general

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Speaker 3: health literacy and whether we're getting false positives from that,

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Speaker 3: you know. In relation to your question, I think the

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Speaker 3: more that we can have out there the better.

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Speaker 2: You're right. You do see things everywhere nowadays. Every day

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Speaker 2: one sees things, you know, you're as an example, in

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Speaker 2: a toilet. But I think with.

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Speaker 3: Blokes in particular, which is obviously our focus of today,

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Speaker 3: the more that they see those things, the repetition of

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Speaker 3: that type of information, I think it's more.

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Speaker 2: Likely to stick and resonate with them.

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Speaker 3: But we still have the problem around vulnerability for guys,

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Speaker 3: which is a key thing. So despite seeing information about

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Speaker 3: science and symptoms of mental illness and that you should

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Speaker 3: go and get some help, there are some you know,

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Speaker 3: old schools sottle expectations around masculinity, which makes.

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Speaker 2: It hard for them to take that next step.

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Speaker 1: Every time I shared a slide in my presentations around

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Speaker 1: resilience on mental health, there's a gender difference. So females

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Speaker 1: are shown consistently in every study that I've found to

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Speaker 1: have high levels of psychological stress and mental health challenge

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Speaker 1: than men. And usually someone will put up their hand

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Speaker 1: and they'll say, well, that's because men just don't acknowledge it.

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Speaker 1: Men won't own up to it. Generally speaking, there are

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Speaker 1: some other methodological issues that can somewhat cancel that out,

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Speaker 1: although not entirely. You've been working in this area for

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Speaker 1: twenty years. Other than this idea that you've just mentioned

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Speaker 1: that men have got these societal expectations that they're supposed

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Speaker 1: to be strong, what else stops them from seeking support?

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Speaker 2: There is still some stigma around mental health. I think

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Speaker 2: we've had some massive steps in that in the last

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Speaker 2: five to ten years, even fifteen years, but there is

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Speaker 2: still some stigma attached to it. You know.

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Speaker 3: Essentially what that means is that a lot of bikes

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Speaker 3: will just think that there's something wrong with them after

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Speaker 3: having a mental health issue. Guys generally engaged with general

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Speaker 3: breaktors so with their GPS less. Women are more likely

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Speaker 3: or more frequently go see GPS, their visits are.

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Speaker 2: Generally for longer and it's important access pathway. You know.

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Speaker 3: I've got MBS better Access, which is a fantastic service

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Speaker 3: that the Australian Government has developed and has been running

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Speaker 3: for quite some time, and GPS a prom access point

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Speaker 3: for that and also other mental health services as well.

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Speaker 2: We talked about literacy before.

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Speaker 3: Generally most guys are going to have poor mental health literacy,

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Speaker 3: so that's the ability to obtain and stand and utilize

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Speaker 3: that information. Studies have shown that depression literacy, you know,

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Speaker 3: is worse in men.

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Speaker 1: Let's get really concrete on this. If I'm a guy

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Speaker 1: and I don't have reasonable literacy around my mental health,

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Speaker 1: what is going to be happening for me? And how

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Speaker 1: am I going to be misinterpreting it.

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Speaker 2: Guys can present differently. Guys can present more often with things.

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Speaker 3: Like irritability, anger, you know, fatigue, motivation issues, overworking, underworking.

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Speaker 3: Of course, you know the classical things like low mood

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Speaker 3: and anxiety. But you know, on the surface, a lot

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Speaker 3: of those things might not be evident to them as

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Speaker 3: a mental health issue or a risk factor.

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Speaker 1: So if I was to sound like my dad for

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Speaker 1: a second, of my grandpa, you get these guys who

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Speaker 1: are in their thirties or forties or fifties, and they

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Speaker 1: turn into cranky old buggers, And what's actually going on

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Speaker 1: is that they're not angry people, but there's something going

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Speaker 1: underneath the surface. They're dealing with some forms of anxiety

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Speaker 1: or some depression, or maybe even something deeper than that,

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Speaker 1: some existential terror. But they're just not attuned enough to

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Speaker 1: what's happening under the surface to get it. And so

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Speaker 1: everyone just thinks that and they think they think that

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Speaker 1: they're just moody, that they're just cranky, and so they

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Speaker 1: get mad, they go and drink a little bit too

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Speaker 1: much or start to ignore the people around them, And

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Speaker 1: what's going on is that there may be some mental

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Speaker 1: health challenge.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely a lot of boys and guys will often externalize

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Speaker 3: mental health issues, you know, and anger and irritability being

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Speaker 3: very obviously that you were talking about then, or engaged

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Speaker 3: in risky or dangerous behavior like you know, driving fast

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Speaker 3: or using alcohol or other substances, and you're right, it's

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Speaker 3: just not clear to them what is under the surface.

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Speaker 2: So very often that you know, irritability or the anger can.

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Speaker 3: Be an expression of I'm feeling unsafe, I'm feeling very anxious,

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Speaker 3: I'm feeling very low, and yet they are unable to

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Speaker 3: tap into what's going on underneath, and you know, for

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Speaker 3: that reason, for them and the people around.

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Speaker 2: Them might not be really evident that what he's going

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Speaker 2: on to serve.

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Speaker 1: It's a really tricky question, maybe quite nuanced, and could

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Speaker 1: even be a hard one to answer. But to what

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Speaker 1: extent is a guy who is angry or like you said,

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Speaker 1: externalizing doing things that aren't necessarily going to be considered

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Speaker 1: pro social and considered of others. To what extent is

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Speaker 1: that somebody who's just choosing not to regulate and choosing

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Speaker 1: to be a bit of a well, I don't want

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Speaker 1: to sound too horrible, but be a bit of a

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Speaker 1: pig versus somebody who's dealing with a genuine mental health challenge,

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Speaker 1: Like there are some people who are just angry people.

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Speaker 1: They just choose not to regulate. They don't have a

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Speaker 1: mental health condition or problem. They're just in their own

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Speaker 1: little world and they're not thinking about the people around them.

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Speaker 1: And then there are other people who are genuinely struggling

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Speaker 1: with depression and grief and anxiety and other things. How

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Speaker 1: do you disentangle the two.

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Speaker 2: That's a good question and a tricky one, and I

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Speaker 2: think you untangle that through dialogue with another person, whether

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Speaker 2: that's a loved one you know, a family member, a friend,

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Speaker 2: or whether you seek professional support. You can really work

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Speaker 2: through the layers and have a really good discussion about

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Speaker 2: what's going on for them and potentially the reasons for

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Speaker 2: why it might be going on.

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Speaker 3: And that involves discussions, you know, really importantly right back

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Speaker 3: to your family of origin, you know, where you can

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Speaker 3: really get blow many layers of what's happened to them

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Speaker 3: over the journey, and you get to the core of why,

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Speaker 3: as an example, they might be feeling angry or irritable

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Speaker 3: or acting out aggressively in their life.

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Speaker 1: We're back with more from Craig Russo. After break, We're back.

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Speaker 1: This is the Happy Family's podcast. Craig Russo dedicated and

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Speaker 1: experienced psychologists with a career spanning over two decades, beginning

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and three, talking about boys, men, mental health,

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Speaker 1: support seeking and the fact that too many guys just

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Speaker 1: won't ask for help. Craig, you've been involved in this

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Speaker 1: mental maintenance manual. The idea is you take the car

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Speaker 1: in for a service every so often, and it's probably

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Speaker 1: good to get you in for a service every so

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Speaker 1: often from mental health perspective. I got to mate who

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Speaker 1: used to be a cop. He saw some horrendous things,

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Speaker 1: ended up leaving the force because it was just too

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Speaker 1: much for him, the horrors that he had to deal with.

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Speaker 1: He worked in the child protection squad, which is probably

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Speaker 1: it's got to be one of the hardest places that

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Speaker 1: you could ever work. And we were on a bike

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Speaker 1: ride one time having a good conversation when he said

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Speaker 1: to me that he goes and sees a psychologist every

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Speaker 1: three four months even though things are fine, because he

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Speaker 1: just wants to stay on top of He called it

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Speaker 1: maintenance mode. I don't have anything going on, I don't

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Speaker 1: need to see the sych but I just call on

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Speaker 1: every three or four months. I've got that standing appointment

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Speaker 1: because I want to keep the maintenance up to date.

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Speaker 1: Tell us a bit about your mental maintenance manual. This

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Speaker 1: idea of servicing your mental health the way your service, car.

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Speaker 2: Entertainment, someone else.

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Speaker 3: Encouraging guys to treat their mental health in the same

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Speaker 3: way that they might taking care of their physical health,

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Speaker 3: taking care of their car, or taking care of their

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Speaker 3: guard with small and consistent steps around mental health maintenance,

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Speaker 3: and you know, the guy goes over things like identifying

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Speaker 3: stressors and triggers, you know, skills for building resilience, and

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Speaker 3: skills for identifying signs of mental health problems, hopefully to

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Speaker 3: prevent the onset of more significant issues, all the exacerbation

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Speaker 3: of things that you might already have going on. Some

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Speaker 3: of the things that are really key from the manual

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Speaker 3: include rewarding activities, so I can't play. Any times I've

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Speaker 3: talked with guys and you know, ask them what are

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Speaker 3: you doing for yourself?

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Speaker 2: What do you enjoy? And they'll say nothing or very little.

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Speaker 3: It's really hard to have a good experience, or positive

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Speaker 3: or happy experience of your life if you're not doing

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Speaker 3: things that you find rewarding. So really whatever works for

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Speaker 3: you little snippets you know over the week. That might

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Speaker 3: be hunting, might be fishing, might be arts and cramp.

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Speaker 3: At the end of the day, it's about you enjoy

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Speaker 3: and trying to incorporate that in. You know, the good

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Speaker 3: old fashioned seven to nine hours sleep is angely really underrated,

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Speaker 3: and I'm gonna admit I'm not fantastic with that, but

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Speaker 3: that that really does help, as well as does having

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Speaker 3: a generally good diet. You know, so eating clean and

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Speaker 3: healthy for the most part, noting that you know you're

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Speaker 3: gonna eat those treats and things that you're like, or

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Speaker 3: have your cheap meal however you describe.

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Speaker 2: But I still think that's really important to.

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Speaker 3: Have those things, and for blokes in particular, but really

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Speaker 3: this does apply to everybody true face to face social connection.

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Speaker 3: So us guys, I'm pretty hopeless of picking up the

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Speaker 3: phone and having a chat to someone else about what's

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Speaker 3: going on.

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Speaker 2: We do need something to connect us very.

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Speaker 3: Often, and you know, those could be activities like the

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Speaker 3: ones I've mentioned before. You know, it could be going

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Speaker 3: out for a meal, it could be going for official

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Speaker 3: to mate.

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Speaker 2: They provide us with.

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Speaker 3: That platform where you know, we can start to tease

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Speaker 3: out some dialogue and we can support each other.

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Speaker 2: So those are some of the things that are in

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Speaker 2: the manual, and yeah there's other tips and tricks in

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Speaker 2: there as well. And again to.

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Speaker 3: Think been consistent and doing things as often as you can,

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Speaker 3: but to not.

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Speaker 2: Be harsh to yourself.

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Speaker 3: If you fall off the holes, you have a few

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Speaker 3: bad days or a bad way, it's the idea is just.

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Speaker 2: To get back on.

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Speaker 3: Don't beat yourself up about it, but really try and

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Speaker 3: have these key and consistent parts to maintain.

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Speaker 1: I recall seeing the Mental Maintenance Manual a little while

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Speaker 1: back and just thinking this is so smart. I really

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Speaker 1: enjoy it. I received some stuff in the post that

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Speaker 1: sort of showed me how it all worked, and it

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Speaker 1: just fit so well. I haven't heard of someone health before.

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Speaker 1: Let's just make this absolutely blatant. You guys got in

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Speaker 1: touch because you wanted people to know what someone health

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Speaker 1: is so that we can make make care more accessible

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Speaker 1: for people who are not reaching out for support. Give

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Speaker 1: us a thirty second blurb on what someone health is

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Speaker 1: and why this matters in terms of ossie guys, boys

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Speaker 1: men getting the support that they need.

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Speaker 2: Thanks justin leading into that.

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Speaker 3: Another really important barrier to access is actual access to services,

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Speaker 3: so then being physically available near to you, having knowledge

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Speaker 3: about services and being able to afford them, particularly in

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Speaker 3: this day and age, and that's where a service block

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Speaker 3: someone else can be a real game changer. It's a

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Speaker 3: telehealth service, so you can get support from the comfort

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Speaker 3: of your own home or work, whatever suits.

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Speaker 2: You, at a time that suits you.

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Speaker 3: And of course it's available to people across Australia and

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Speaker 3: if you do have a mental health treatment plan, you

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Speaker 3: get ten sessions a year and there's no gap whatsoever.

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Speaker 3: So in terms of accessibility, you know, it's really helping

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Speaker 3: with that barrier, and in terms of cost as well,

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Speaker 3: it's really.

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Speaker 2: Helping with that barrier. There's over two hundred therapists on

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Speaker 2: the platform and right fit's an important thing for anybody,

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Speaker 2: So you know, I think there's a good chance that

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Speaker 2: if you jump on and have a look with that

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Speaker 2: many therapists, you can find someone with the expertise and

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Speaker 2: skills that are a good fit for you.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So I give us the website, phone number, anything

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Speaker 1: else that people need. I can find out more about

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Speaker 1: someone health and actually do the support seeking that is

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Speaker 1: all too often, far too lacking.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll give you the website is literally just someone

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Speaker 3: giant health. If you stick that into your search engine,

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Speaker 3: it should be the top one that comes up.

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Speaker 2: And you'll be able to easily navigate your way through there.

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Speaker 3: In this day and age, I see a lot of

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Speaker 3: guys who are confused about masculinity and whether it's a

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Speaker 3: good or a band thing. But there absolutely are good

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Speaker 3: masculine traits, and you know, I think it's important that

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Speaker 3: I mentioned that there's not you know, just men. You know,

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Speaker 3: these traits through in women and men, but things like perseverance,

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Speaker 3: under dus self, confidenence, you know, decisiveness, strength, These are

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Speaker 3: all amazing attributes that I think can be celebrated in

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Speaker 3: everybody and should be encouraged in everyone.

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Speaker 2: But it really is that you know, specific thing that

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Speaker 2: happens for a lot of guys, which is that struggle

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Speaker 2: being vulnerability.

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Speaker 3: So hopefully you can find someone that you can start

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Speaker 3: your journey with or the least contribute to your journey

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Speaker 3: in terms of opening up and talking a little bit

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Speaker 3: more about what's going on for me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, good on your Craig, You're doing really really important work.

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Speaker 1: And I hope that more people can access it take

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Speaker 1: advantage of what you're doing. Even if they just get

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Speaker 1: a hold of that mental maintenance manual that's online, it'll

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Speaker 1: make such a difference. But reaching out for the help

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Speaker 1: where you need it is valuable. We have statistics that

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Speaker 1: are all pointing in the wrong direction when it comes

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Speaker 1: to how men are doing. So grateful for your time.

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Speaker 1: That's Craig Russo from someone health, a psychologist over the

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Speaker 1: last two decades or more who's focused entirely on men's

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Speaker 1: and boys' mental health and navigating the challenges associated with

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Speaker 1: what's going on and in our heads. For more, check

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Speaker 1: the show notes. We will link to everything that Craig's

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Speaker 1: talked about in the show notes. The Happy Families podcast

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Speaker 1: is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge medium. Imhammons provides

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Speaker 1: additional research and admin support. If you'd like more info

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Speaker 1: to make your family happier, check out the resources and

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Speaker 1: the links, or visit happy families dot com.

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Speaker 2: Don't you