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Speaker 1: Before we jump into today's deep dive, we have a

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Speaker 1: really quick ask of you, and it's about ensuring this

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Speaker 1: podcast can remain as relevant and useful to you as possible.

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Speaker 1: So to do that, we want to know a little

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Speaker 1: bit more about who listens to it. We've put a

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Speaker 1: very short survey in today's show notes and we'd be

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Speaker 1: so so grateful if you could fill it out. Won't

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Speaker 1: take more than a minute. And thank you so much

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Speaker 1: in advance for helping TDA. Now on to today's deep

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Speaker 1: dive already, and this.

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Speaker 2: Is the Daily This is the Daily OS.

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Speaker 3: Oh, now it makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily ODS. It's Tuesday,

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Speaker 2: the fifth of August. I'm Harry Sekulch.

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Speaker 3: I'm Emma Gillespie.

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Speaker 2: Working from home at least two days a week could

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Speaker 2: become a legal right in Victoria. The state government has

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Speaker 2: laid out plans to make it an entitlement to public

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Speaker 2: and private sector workers. Premier de Sina Allen said it

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Speaker 2: could boost business productivity and help workers with caring responsibilities

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Speaker 2: that some critics have questioned how it would work, including

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Speaker 2: whether it would even be lawful in Australia.

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Speaker 1: In today's Deep Dive, We are going to take you

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Speaker 1: through Victoria's push to legislate the right to work from home,

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Speaker 1: the reasons behind this movement, and why the debate doesn't

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Speaker 1: seem to be going away.

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Speaker 3: Harry, We're talking.

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Speaker 1: About some legislation that is being tabled in Victoria to

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Speaker 1: make it a protected law for workers to have two

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Speaker 1: days a week where they.

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Speaker 3: Can work from home.

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Speaker 1: Work from home has been a debate in workplaces around

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Speaker 1: the country and the world really ever since kind of

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Speaker 1: COVID erupted and changed the way we think about work

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Speaker 1: and remote work. It's definitely a debate that we have

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Speaker 1: seen a lot of scrutiny, a lot of for and against,

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Speaker 1: but it's the first time this week that we're seeing

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Speaker 1: it really potentially being discussed as a legal right. What

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Speaker 1: can you tell us about how this would all work?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're so right. There's always this ebb and flow

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Speaker 2: from the periphery to the center when it comes to

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Speaker 2: working from home and how workplaces are kind of dealing

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Speaker 2: with it. So over the weekend, the Victorian government brought

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Speaker 2: it right back into the center again and they announced

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Speaker 2: that it was going to legislate a right to work

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Speaker 2: from home at least two days a week. Now, to

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Speaker 2: give it a bit of context, the right would apply

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Speaker 2: in circumstances where it's considered reasonable, So it wouldn't have

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Speaker 2: universal coverage. If you think about some workplaces, like nurses

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Speaker 2: need to be in a hospital, teachers need to be

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Speaker 2: in a classroom. If there's a fire, fire fighters have

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Speaker 2: to go and put out the flames. Right, Yeah, So

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Speaker 2: it wouldn't necessarily have coverage right across the board.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So reasonable can basically be interpreted in terms of

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Speaker 1: is your job a job that can be done from home?

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Speaker 2: That's right? And I think that's where it's helpful to

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Speaker 2: think of office work. This is essentially where it's likely

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Speaker 2: to apply most because the proposal focuses on workers who,

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Speaker 2: in circumstances where it would be considered reasonable, they wouldn't

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Speaker 2: have to negotiate working from home two days a week. Basically,

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Speaker 2: their boss wouldn't be able to deny them this option

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Speaker 2: under the legislation.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 2: I think it's important to add as well that this

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Speaker 2: is a government announcement, but it would apply to both

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Speaker 2: the public and private sector. So if you worked for

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Speaker 2: an insurance firm, if you worked for a public agency,

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Speaker 2: it wouldn't really matter if you do work in an office.

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Speaker 2: If the circumstances allow for it, you would be covered

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Speaker 2: by this right. And we're at a very early stage

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Speaker 2: of this legislation as well. It actually hasn't been drafted yet.

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Speaker 2: What the government's doing now is it's announced that it

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Speaker 2: plans to do this, It'll go through a consultation process,

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Speaker 2: it'll define things like what actually counts as remote work,

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Speaker 2: and then it plans to legislate this right in twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty six.

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Speaker 3: Okay, got it.

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Speaker 1: I find it really interesting that we're talking about legislating

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Speaker 1: this working from home arrangement for Victorians because by now,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're all well and truly versed in the

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Speaker 1: post COVID remote work landscape, I suppose, And that means

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Speaker 1: that a lot of workplaces, a lot of private sector

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Speaker 1: companies as well, have already kind of rolled out their

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Speaker 1: own strategies, their own plans. A lot of businesses have

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Speaker 1: clear cut rules about Okay, yep, you can work x

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Speaker 1: amount of days or hours from home, but you have

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Speaker 1: to be in the office for this many face to

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Speaker 1: face days or they've completely kind of ruled out working

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Speaker 1: from home. So why is there a need to bring

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Speaker 1: it into law.

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Speaker 2: Why now, Yeah, it's definitely not a niche thing to

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Speaker 2: work from home. The Australian Bureau Statistics data actually shows

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Speaker 2: it's about thirty six percent of people in Australia work

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Speaker 2: from home at least once a week.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: So if it is kind of common, why would you

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Speaker 2: need legislation? Well, basically, it would give workers quite a

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Speaker 2: powerful tool to say, you can't deny me the option

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Speaker 2: to work from home. It's actually illegal to deny me

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Speaker 2: that right. It would also make working from home rules

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Speaker 2: a bit more consistent in Victoria. It wouldn't vary by

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Speaker 2: an award, it wouldn't vary by workplace. It would just

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Speaker 2: remove the need for there to be any sort of

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Speaker 2: dialogue between an employer and employee as currently exists in

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Speaker 2: the workplace laws. And if you think about some workplaces,

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Speaker 2: some big employers in Australia, the Big four banks, require

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Speaker 2: their workers to work in the office at least half

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Speaker 2: of a given month. They caature it by a month.

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Speaker 1: That's interesting because I was thinking about, you know, if

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Speaker 1: you are a national company, if you're an Australia wide employer,

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Speaker 1: how this legislation would potentially work for you if you've

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Speaker 1: got some staff in Victoria on a different set of

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Speaker 1: rules than everywhere else in the country. But if it's

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Speaker 1: a fifty to fifty thing, then the two day a

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Speaker 1: week legislation wouldn't really impact that. But it is certainly interesting.

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Speaker 1: Kind of on the other side of I feel like

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Speaker 1: we've seen a bit of a I don't want to

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Speaker 1: say an overcorrection, but I think companies have anecdotally become

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Speaker 1: more conservative.

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Speaker 3: About working from home in recent years.

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Speaker 2: I definitely want to get into the reasons why some

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Speaker 2: businesses oppose this idea, but unions have been raising the

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Speaker 2: concerns about employers denying their staff the right to work

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Speaker 2: from home. In fact, the Australian Services Union which joined

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Speaker 2: the Victorian government in announcing this measure, they have a

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Speaker 2: dedicated campaign to helping workers understand flexible working rights. So

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Speaker 2: when the Victorian Premier, just Into Allen was asked about

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Speaker 2: why they needed to be a legally enshrined right, I

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Speaker 2: thought it was quite interesting that she mentioned people with

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Speaker 2: caring responsibilities and young families. Here's a little bit of

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Speaker 2: what she had to say.

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Speaker 4: It works for families, particularly for women, for single months,

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Speaker 4: for people with caring responsibilities, and there's plenty of men

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Speaker 4: too who face those pressures and challenges of those caring

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Speaker 4: and family responsibilities.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so just to recap quickly, Harry Victoria's labor government,

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Speaker 1: led by premierers Into Allen, has announced a plan to

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Speaker 1: legislate the right to work from home two days a

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Speaker 1: week for reasonable workers or in circumstances where your job

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Speaker 1: permits that. What has the opposition had to say about this?

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Speaker 1: Have we heard from them?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? So I also think it's significant that Victoria's going

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Speaker 2: to an election next year and the government plans to

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Speaker 2: legislate it next year as well. So it's reasonable to

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Speaker 2: ask if the opposition gets into power, will they just

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Speaker 2: scrap this right altogether? And so the Opposition leader Brad

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Speaker 2: Batton was asked about this over the weekend. He said,

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Speaker 2: there are still a few questions and a few loose

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Speaker 2: ends to tie up when it comes to legislating or

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Speaker 2: working from home right, but otherwise the state coalition generally

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Speaker 2: supports the measure. I think the opportunity to have that

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Speaker 2: discussion and there's negotiations between employers and employers is really

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Speaker 2: important and hybrid working is part of the future.

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Speaker 1: That's really interesting because I think I'm sure we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about this, but that is the Victorian Coalition's position,

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Speaker 1: which sounds a little bit different from the Federal coalitions

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Speaker 1: position just a few months ago.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Remember in the federal election, we had this massive

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Speaker 2: debate about working from home because the then leader of

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Speaker 2: the Federal Coalition, Peter Dutton, had announced this policy to

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Speaker 2: require all Australian public sector workers to work in the

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Speaker 2: office five days a week. Now, he later scrapped those plans.

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Speaker 2: There was a lot of pushback to it. He apologized

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Speaker 2: and he actually admitted that the Coalition got it roll

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Speaker 2: on that one. So this is an issue that he's

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Speaker 2: looming large over the coalition and I think Brad Baton

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Speaker 2: definitely has that in mind when he's consulting on these

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Speaker 2: changes and looking at whether he would adopt that policy

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Speaker 2: as well. He doesn't seem to want to go there.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So it seems like the Victorian Coalition has learned

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Speaker 1: from the potential missteps of the Federal Coalition and aren't

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Speaker 1: looking to kind of repeat that debate that we had

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Speaker 1: at a federal level.

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Speaker 2: I think that's fair to say he was pretty quick

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Speaker 2: to sort of water that down saying oh, look, we

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Speaker 2: just won't tinker with it if it comes into effects

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Speaker 2: lets okay, and generally supports the idea of a hybrid

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Speaker 2: work model.

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Speaker 1: So, Harry, what is the argument against working from home?

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Speaker 1: Why have we seen a bit of a movement here

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Speaker 1: led by politicians and businesses in some sectors pushing back

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Speaker 1: against it, saying no, we don't want you working from home.

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Speaker 1: We want you in the office five days a week.

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Speaker 2: I think you can categorize it into two main sets

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Speaker 2: of arguments. The first one comes to this idea of

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Speaker 2: a two tiered workforce, those who can work from home

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Speaker 2: and those who can't. So if you think about a hospital,

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Speaker 2: for instance, nurses can't work from home, they have to

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Speaker 2: directly help patients. But if you think about some of

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Speaker 2: the administrative staff at a hospital, they could work from home. Okay,

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Speaker 2: just on a logistical basis. How that would work case

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Speaker 2: by case? Obviously we won't get into that. But I

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Speaker 2: think some of the questions here are that's one entitlement

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Speaker 2: for one section of the workforce, but then that leaves

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Speaker 2: the others out.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 1: So it's a question of is it fair to split

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Speaker 1: those workforces maybe into a hierarchy of you can and

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Speaker 1: you can't.

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Speaker 2: That's right. And just into Alan was asked about this

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Speaker 2: and she kind of brushed off this suggestion, saying that

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Speaker 2: this is already occurring in the workplace. I go back

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Speaker 2: to that figure from the ABS, thirty six percent of

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Speaker 2: people in Australia already working from.

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Speaker 3: Home, more than one in three.

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Speaker 2: That's right. And so some officers might require you to

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Speaker 2: come into the office more frequently, just based on the

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Speaker 2: nature of work. Think about us, Emma, we're here in

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Speaker 2: the studio today recording a podcast. It's harder to do

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Speaker 2: that from home. It just also wouldn't sound as good

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Speaker 2: or whatever the case may be. But that's just us

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Speaker 2: in that unique circumstance. Some other jobs require you to travel,

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Speaker 2: so you know, there's a whole host of different workplace arrangements.

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Speaker 2: So it wouldn't necessarily create a second tier when there's

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Speaker 2: already hybrid work across the board. Just into Alan's argument,

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Speaker 2: should hasten to add.

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Speaker 1: And I think there are a lot of workers who can't,

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Speaker 1: for whatever reason, work from home, but that doesn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: mean that they don't want other people to have the

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Speaker 1: freedom or the flexibility. You know, us for example, we

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Speaker 1: love being here and being on the mic to do

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Speaker 1: the podcast.

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Speaker 3: That doesn't mean that I don't want other people to

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Speaker 3: be able to work from home and enjoy the luxuries

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Speaker 3: that we can't.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the envy of other people's riots.

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Speaker 1: It also means though, like you know, I know that

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Speaker 1: we have a really great internet connection here to do

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Speaker 1: this stuff, and sometimes at home it's not always as.

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Speaker 2: Reliable or crash and burn.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Alie barrass myself on a zoom call, I'll get

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Speaker 1: frozen in an awkward position.

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Speaker 3: That's a stress of working from home exactly.

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Speaker 2: So that's one area that's been argued. The second main

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Speaker 2: argument that's been put forward is the economic impact. So

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Speaker 2: if you think about the CBD in whatever state you

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Speaker 2: might be in in Australia, if you have office workers

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Speaker 2: going in less regularly, well that's less business for cafes,

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Speaker 2: for restaurants who would otherwise see these workers come in

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Speaker 2: more frequently, and so there's a bit less economic activity

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Speaker 2: if you like. That's the broader argument. Once again, just

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Speaker 2: Sinta Allen was asked about this. She said that financially,

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Speaker 2: for individual workers, they'll end up better off if they

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Speaker 2: have a right to work from home because they won't

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Speaker 2: have to spend on commuting so getting public transport or

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Speaker 2: parking in the CBD, which we know can be really expensive.

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Speaker 2: And also they won't have to fuel up as much

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Speaker 2: and their hip pocket will improve, so in turn they

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Speaker 2: might actually end up spending more money going out and

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Speaker 2: buying dinner or going out to launch or something.

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Speaker 1: There's also I think an economic argument for the rural

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Speaker 1: urban spread that we've seen in the last few years.

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Speaker 1: Of course, there's more vacant spaces in office CBDs, but

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Speaker 1: more people are moving to the regions. There's been a

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Speaker 1: huge spike in the property economy in kind of regional

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Speaker 1: and rural communities that sit outside of those major CBDs,

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Speaker 1: where workers otherwise wouldn't have been able to imagine themselves

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Speaker 1: relocating to and keeping their job. But now they are

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Speaker 1: living in these kinds of areas where maybe it's a

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Speaker 1: one or a two hour drive from the office, but

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Speaker 1: they make that commitment to be there once or twice

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Speaker 1: a week.

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Speaker 2: And the commuter belt for our main cities is just

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Speaker 2: getting wider and wider and wider and more and more expensive,

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Speaker 2: so people are actually opting to live a little bit

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Speaker 2: further out of the city, so they don't have to

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Speaker 2: commute into work five days a week necessarily, but might

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Speaker 2: only have to do it three or four days a week.

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Speaker 1: And what about the productivity argument? Is their concern that

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Speaker 1: working from home is bad for productivity?

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Speaker 3: Good for productivity? What's been said there?

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Speaker 2: The government has said that productivity won't suffer as a result.

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Speaker 2: In fact, they've pointed to some studies that already show

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Speaker 2: that workers tend to be a little bit more productive,

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Speaker 2: get a bit more out of their day when they're

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Speaker 2: able to work from home and have those hybrid arrangements

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Speaker 2: in place. So livestin there's always going to be a

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Speaker 2: bit of back and forth. There will be some people

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Speaker 2: that disagree, some people that agree.

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Speaker 1: Yep, there's the whole social argument, face to face interactions

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Speaker 1: versus the isolation of working from home. So much that

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Speaker 1: has been discussed and will continue to be discussed, Harry.

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Speaker 3: But have we heard.

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Speaker 1: From businesses themselves. It obviously will be on them to

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Speaker 1: adjust to this change. If Victoria legislates the right to

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Speaker 1: work from home? What are business group saying?

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Speaker 2: So they're pretty concerned about the legislation and how it

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Speaker 2: would work in effect, because as you said, they would

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Speaker 2: have to adjust to these changes. And we've heard from

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Speaker 2: the Victorian head of the Australian Industry Group, Tim Piper.

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Speaker 2: He released a statement over the weekend calling the measure

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Speaker 2: quote political theater. In other words, might seem popular but

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Speaker 2: doesn't achieve much in his view. He added what works

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Speaker 2: for one company may not suit another. Flexible work should

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Speaker 2: be driven by the needs of individual businesses. Piper also

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Speaker 2: raised what I think is a really important issue and

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Speaker 2: you touched on it briefly before, and I want to

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Speaker 2: come back to it because it does have broader national implication.

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Speaker 2: The way that work is governed in Australia is overseen

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Speaker 2: by what's known as a Fair Work Commission, which is

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Speaker 2: our workplace referee right across the country. Yep, there's no

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Speaker 2: right to work from home, as clear as that in

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Speaker 2: the national legislation. Okay, but if Victoria decides to bring

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Speaker 2: this in, it could create actually a bit of a

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Speaker 2: constitutional issue.

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Speaker 1: Right because you're saying that the Fair Work Commission is

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Speaker 1: the national regulator for workplace disputes or workers' rights, and

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Speaker 1: if we have a state saying this is a set

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Speaker 1: of rules that might contradict their set of rules that

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Speaker 1: could create problems.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And the way that our constitution works as well

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Speaker 2: is that if there is a conflict directly between the

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Speaker 2: state and federal law, the federal law trumps the state law. Interesting,

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Speaker 2: so it might actually not end up having the legislative

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Speaker 2: effect that the government wants it too, which is that

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Speaker 2: you would get this legal right two days a week

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Speaker 2: if there's no federal legislation to back it in.

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Speaker 1: Has labor, either at the state or national level commented

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Speaker 1: on what that might mean if this is all kind

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Speaker 1: of going to be overridden by a lack of legislation federally,

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Speaker 1: Does that mean that the Albanesi government's going to look

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Speaker 1: at something like this.

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Speaker 2: We don't know if the government at a federal level

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Speaker 2: is going to look into it. In fact, the Workplace

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Speaker 2: Relations Minister Amanda Rishworth has been asked and I've been

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Speaker 2: in touch with her team. There's no plans at this stage,

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Speaker 2: and they aren't exactly willing to comment on it either

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Speaker 2: because they just might not see it as appropriate given

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Speaker 2: that it is a Victorian issue. The state government said

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Speaker 2: that that's why it's going through consultation right now, because

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Speaker 2: it wants to look at these potential challenges that could

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Speaker 2: come out of their legislation, and so they want to

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Speaker 2: anticipate that there might be a high court challenge down

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Speaker 2: the track if say, there is a conflict at a

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Speaker 2: state and federal level. But I think I think you

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Speaker 2: actually touched on something that was even more basic. We

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Speaker 2: have national companies in Australia, yeah, that employ people in

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Speaker 2: every city in every state. If one state has rights

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Speaker 2: that other states don't get, you might actually see a

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Speaker 2: little bit of that grievance trickle through the workforce. And

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Speaker 2: so that causes a few issues when it comes to

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Speaker 2: these national companies trying to just you know, create a

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Speaker 2: good workplace for everyone. But then Victoria can anyone working

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Speaker 2: in Victoria can basically just say, look, I've got a right.

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Speaker 2: Don't really care about my state interstate colleagues, yeah, but

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Speaker 2: this is my legal right to have a two day

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Speaker 2: a week working from home.

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Speaker 1: Entitlement fascinating, And then of course it could go the

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Speaker 1: other way where national companies say, well, if Victorian employees

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Speaker 1: can have two days a week from home, all employees can.

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Speaker 1: And then if you've got all these big sectors and

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Speaker 1: big names and brands doing that, then maybe there will

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Speaker 1: be an imperative for the Fair Work Commission to undergo

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Speaker 1: a bit of an.

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Speaker 2: Overhaul, well exactly. And I think ultimately the fact that

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Speaker 2: we're ending on some of these thornia prickly issues with

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Speaker 2: this potential legislation just shows that this debate is so

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Speaker 2: far from over. We're going to be talking about it again.

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Speaker 2: We are going to keep it in the center, not

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Speaker 2: in approphery, and I think that it'll just be so

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Speaker 2: fascinating to see how this consultation plays out, what the

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Speaker 2: legislation actually looks like when it comes into being.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, very fascinating stuff.

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Speaker 1: As you mentioned, Harry, we're expecting legislation to be tabled

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Speaker 1: next year, is that right?

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Speaker 2: Yep? Twenty twenty six before the election in Victoria next year.

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Speaker 2: So we'll be keeping a close eye on it. I

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Speaker 2: will be asking Cintra Allen's team for more details as

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Speaker 2: they come to hand and bring them to our audience

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Speaker 2: here at the Daily Offs.

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Speaker 1: So so interesting, Harry. Thank you as always for taking

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Speaker 1: us through a pretty complicated one in really simple terms.

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Speaker 1: Oh thanks Selah, and thank you for listening to today's

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Speaker 1: episode or if you're watching over on YouTube, Hi, thank you.

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Speaker 3: Don't forget to subscribe.

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Speaker 1: We will be back a little bit later on today

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Speaker 1: with your evening news headlines, but until then, have a

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Speaker 1: good day.

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Speaker 2: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 2: Bungelung Calkatin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 2: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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Speaker 2: s right island and nations. We pay our respects to

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Speaker 2: the first peoples of these countries, both past and present.