Speaker 1: Hello there, it's Amantha. I'm currently on a Christmas break,
Speaker 1: so I've handpicked a bunch of my favorite episodes from
Speaker 1: the last year to share with you. Okay, on with
Speaker 1: today's best of episode. If someone were to ask you
Speaker 1: how you define a healthy professional network, the first thing
Speaker 1: you probably think about is size, like how many people
Speaker 1: you know and if you were looking for a job
Speaker 1: or help on a project, how many people do you have?
Speaker 1: And your virtual rolodex that you could call. But Marissa
Speaker 1: King knows that there is a lot more to a
Speaker 1: healthy network than size. Marissa is a professor of organizational
Speaker 1: behavior at the Yale School of Management, and she's been
Speaker 1: studying social networks for the past fifteen years. She's also
Speaker 1: the author of Social Chemistry, where she explores how anyone
Speaker 1: can build more meaningful and productive relationships. So how does
Speaker 1: someone who's studied networking approach meeting new people at a conference?
Speaker 1: And how does Marissa go about making new friends? And
Speaker 1: what does the research say about how we can make
Speaker 1: ourselves more likable in social situations. I'm doctor Ramantha Imba.
Speaker 1: I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science
Speaker 1: consultancy Inventium, and this is how I work a show
Speaker 1: that helps you do your best work. So, given Marisa
Speaker 1: has dedicated her professional life to studying networks, I was
Speaker 1: very keen to understand what kind of a networker she
Speaker 1: saw herself as being.
Speaker 2: I would probably start with thinking, I'm a very reluctant networker.
Speaker 2: Why is that Like a lot of people, I feel
Speaker 2: really uncomfortable at least they used to feel really uncomfortable
Speaker 2: about being intentional about relationship. And that was one of
Speaker 2: the reasons that I have really delved into this topic.
Speaker 2: And when I started my career, I had spent you know,
Speaker 2: the early part of my career purely in research, so
Speaker 2: in the bottom of the basement with no windows, coding
Speaker 2: computers all day, studying networks and how they work. And
Speaker 2: then when it came time to really get into the
Speaker 2: professional realm, I kept getting this advice like, you need
Speaker 2: to network, you need to get out there, you need
Speaker 2: to meet new people. And that for me was just paralyzing.
Speaker 2: And the more afraid I got, the harder it was.
Speaker 1: So I've changed your approach then to like mazing new
Speaker 1: people from the research that you've done over the years.
Speaker 2: Fundamentally, right, we often teach what we need, And a
Speaker 2: lot of what I've tried to do is to understand
Speaker 2: what are some of the basic things that we know
Speaker 2: from social science and how relationships work, and start to
Speaker 2: apply those in my own life. So as an example,
Speaker 2: this idea of you know, like networking, oftentimes people feel
Speaker 2: awkward about or it makes us feel dirty. There's great
Speaker 2: research that was done by Tusiana Kutarot Rutman and Francesco
Speaker 2: at Geno of Harvard when they actually delved into this
Speaker 2: and what they found when they asked people to recall
Speaker 2: different types of interactions. So imagine a spontaneous interaction that's
Speaker 2: purely social. You bump into someone at a coffee shop
Speaker 2: and they become a friend, or a certain type of
Speaker 2: what we often think of is networking, right, a certain
Speaker 2: type of social interaction. You're going somewhere with a professional
Speaker 2: objective in mind. And what they found is that when
Speaker 2: people think of networking and they were just simply asked
Speaker 2: to write about it and recall it compared to other
Speaker 2: types of social interaction, that they were twice as likely
Speaker 2: to recall cleansing words like wash or wish. So it
Speaker 2: really taps into this idea like that we many people
Speaker 2: have this natural moral aversion. But one of the things
Speaker 2: that they found that I've really tried to apply and
Speaker 2: has been extraordinarily helpful in my own approach to relationships
Speaker 2: is to think about instead of what I could get
Speaker 2: out of a social interaction. So that's this instrumental calculating part.
Speaker 2: If I reframe that and think about what can I
Speaker 2: give instead, that that really has helped me overcome all
Speaker 2: this reluctance about being really intentional or instrumental about my relationships.
Speaker 1: So given that, let's just say you're at a conference,
Speaker 1: how do you then approach meeting new people?
Speaker 2: Well, the first thing is to try to change the
Speaker 2: orientation of instead of what can I get out of this?
Speaker 2: Is there some way I can be of service or
Speaker 2: help other people? But that is just like the tip
Speaker 2: of the iceberg. So we know that part of the
Speaker 2: reluctance or resistance people have to networking comes from this
Speaker 2: feeling of like ickiness or unease. But a second piece
Speaker 2: of it comes from feeling like you don't know how
Speaker 2: to do this. So and I fall into this category too.
Speaker 2: So not only am I reluctant to do it, I
Speaker 2: often feel like I don't actually know how to do this.
Speaker 2: I'm deeply, deeply and I wouldn't say interpreted, but I'm
Speaker 2: really guarded. And so the idea for me of if
Speaker 2: I'm at a conference, of walking into a networking event,
Speaker 2: it pretty much is paralynztic. Like I to a large
Speaker 2: extent avoid purposely avoid situations like that. But what I
Speaker 2: do know, and what I found extraordinarily helpful, is that
Speaker 2: by having some very very basic tools in my tool kit,
Speaker 2: I can approach those situations with less fear, which allows
Speaker 2: me to engage more authentically. So I can give an
Speaker 2: example of doing this. So now you've, as you mentioned
Speaker 2: right that I do going to a conference. It calls
Speaker 2: to mind like walking into one of these big rooms,
Speaker 2: but I don't know anybody, and for me that often
Speaker 2: feels like I'm just walking into a wall or an
Speaker 2: ocean of people. But what we know from research is
Speaker 2: that people write don't form walls or oceans, that they
Speaker 2: tend to actually clump together in small groups. So if
Speaker 2: I can see instead of this ocean of people, just
Speaker 2: wall islands of people, then the question is like, Okay,
Speaker 2: now they're islands, So this feels a little bit more manageable.
Speaker 2: What am I going to do next? Well, we know
Speaker 2: again from research that was done using wearable sensors at
Speaker 2: these types of events, that, like most people, I would
Speaker 2: try to find someone I already know, even if my
Speaker 2: goal is that I'm going to be new people, I
Speaker 2: would usually try to stick to someone I know. But
Speaker 2: I know that that's not a good strategy. So setting
Speaker 2: that aside, what we know is that people almost always
Speaker 2: interact in groups of two or diets. It's really the
Speaker 2: most fundamental unit of human interaction. We have two eyes,
Speaker 2: and we have two ears, and our hearing does something
Speaker 2: that's known as the cocktail party effect. It really hones
Speaker 2: in on a single voice. So that means that if
Speaker 2: you can find an island with an odd number of people,
Speaker 2: whether that's three, five, seven, it doesn't really matter. If
Speaker 2: there's an odd number of people there, there's someone who
Speaker 2: really isn't a part of the conversation that is likely
Speaker 2: looking for a conversational partner. And so that very basic
Speaker 2: strategy for me has become critical to starting to navigate
Speaker 2: a lot of the social anxiety I feel in these
Speaker 2: types of situations, because it gives me direction. So that's
Speaker 2: one of the things that's helped me out with conferences
Speaker 2: and other professional events. So, particularly when I feel like
Speaker 2: I don't really know what to do here, having a
Speaker 2: feeling like I have some little playbook helps.
Speaker 1: I love that look for odd numbers. It's so practical
Speaker 1: and simple. What are some other tools that you're using
Speaker 1: at these kinds of events?
Speaker 2: For me, one of the pieces that I try to
Speaker 2: keep in mindor what are some of the things that
Speaker 2: just lead to natural social chemistry. There's great research that
Speaker 2: has shown that one of the best things that you
Speaker 2: can do in a conversation is actually ask follow up questions.
Speaker 2: So asking questions in general makes people more likable, but
Speaker 2: we know that the follow up question actually has particular power,
Speaker 2: and in part that because it shows that you're really
Speaker 2: listening to the other person and so once so now
Speaker 2: you're your odd numbered island. You found someone to talk to,
Speaker 2: and really just listening to them and engaging with them
Speaker 2: and continuing to ask all up questions really not only
Speaker 2: increases the sense of liking, but it deepens the conversation,
Speaker 2: and the more depth that there has to conversation, the
Speaker 2: easier it is to truly connect.
Speaker 1: That's really interesting. I was intrigued when I was reading
Speaker 1: your book Social Chemistry. You actually talk about there are
Speaker 1: six types of questions that we can ask, follow up
Speaker 1: questions being the most powerful. Are there any other kinds
Speaker 1: of questions that can help us get into an interesting
Speaker 1: territory that will lead to those follow up questions?
Speaker 2: I think one of the things that we also know
Speaker 2: about just how conversations normally unfold is there's a secret
Speaker 2: ingredients is also what I think of as mutual reciprocal
Speaker 2: self disclosure. And so there's a great study that was
Speaker 2: done by Arthur Aeron's which and it famously became like
Speaker 2: the thirty six Questions to fall in Love. But what's
Speaker 2: key about the way that those questions unfold is that
Speaker 2: they get with increasing depth. But what I've found also
Speaker 2: is true is that people will often try to meet
Speaker 2: you where you are. So, for instance, in a conversation,
Speaker 2: if I'm honest and open, that encourages the other person
Speaker 2: to be honest and open to So an example of
Speaker 2: this is a common opening question is like how are
Speaker 2: you doing today? And lots of people right just use
Speaker 2: that it's a throwaway like oh I'm good, how are you?
Speaker 2: Or talk about the weather, But to really build a relationship,
Speaker 2: and particularly to accelerate the building the relationship process, you
Speaker 2: need to go far beyond that, right, and you also
Speaker 2: need to go beyond what I could learn by googling
Speaker 2: you or seeing on your CV and so oftens. When
Speaker 2: people ask me that I tell them truly how I'm
Speaker 2: doing today, and that honesty is usually met with equal
Speaker 2: honesty and openness, not all the time, but when it is,
Speaker 2: it really just changes the tenor of the conversation and
Speaker 2: makes connecting far easier.
Speaker 1: So how much would you typically share? Because you also
Speaker 1: talk about, you know, research into oversharing and that can
Speaker 1: that can have, you know, not great consequences. So how
Speaker 1: do you sort of gauge how much to share, how
Speaker 1: vulnerable to make yourself when you are first connecting with someone.
Speaker 2: It's such a good question, and I think that this
Speaker 2: is particularly if you're trying to do this so at
Speaker 2: work or certain situations, understanding what are they can straints
Speaker 2: and particularly like imagining the other person, because for this
Speaker 2: to be comfortable for everybody, I often say, like, you
Speaker 2: need two things. It's a part of the essential elements
Speaker 2: for these types of conversations, which are safety in structure, right,
Speaker 2: So the structured interaction part is that we're talking about
Speaker 2: something rather than just open conversation. So this is why
Speaker 2: in general, just having a cocktail party or a work
Speaker 2: event with no purpose it's really really difficult. Instead, if
Speaker 2: you're ideally, if we go back to that previous scenario
Speaker 2: and we imagine that we're setting the stage or designing
Speaker 2: this interaction, ideally that there's going to be something to
Speaker 2: talk about, the mutual safe ground. So if that's true,
Speaker 2: it makes it a lot easier. When that's not true,
Speaker 2: what you're looking for is that you want to engage
Speaker 2: in conversation that's aimed at mutual discovery, but in a
Speaker 2: place that right like, I'm not going to tell you
Speaker 2: about I mean I personally, For instance, I don't really
Speaker 2: talk about my family life. I don't talk about there's
Speaker 2: lots of a lot of people do, but I'm really private,
Speaker 2: as I mentioned. So the idea is I let you
Speaker 2: know things about myself, maybe where I grew up or
Speaker 2: a really transformative experience I had a great question to
Speaker 2: ask people, or what are you really excited about right now?
Speaker 2: Because it allows you to tap into passion, it allows
Speaker 2: you to tap into identity, but it's giving the person
Speaker 2: a lot of control over what the boundaries of discussion are,
Speaker 2: which creates the safety that's so essential.
Speaker 1: Now in your book, you write about Jane Dutton's work
Speaker 1: into high quality connections, and I was curious as to, well, firstly,
Speaker 1: if you could define what a high quality connection is,
Speaker 1: but then how do you think about using that research
Speaker 1: in creating those high quality connections when you are meeting
Speaker 1: new people.
Speaker 2: A high quality connection is a connection that's really positively
Speaker 2: energizing in the moment, that has a lot of resilience.
Speaker 2: So it's not when I say it's positively energizing, it's
Speaker 2: not just like that makes you feel happy, but that
Speaker 2: it strikes an emotional core in a way that is
Speaker 2: energizing but also has the ability to hold a lot
Speaker 2: of emotion. And that can be it's difficult to articulate,
Speaker 2: but you know when you're in them. And that's one
Speaker 2: of the really powerful pieces of a high quality connection
Speaker 2: is it has true physiological effects. So when you're in
Speaker 2: a high quality connection, for instance, your cortisol levels, which
Speaker 2: are a biomarker of stress, lower, your heart rate slows down,
Speaker 2: your breathing slows down. So we're really wired physically to
Speaker 2: be in these types of connections and they can happen.
Speaker 2: Which is so powerful is they can happen in a moment,
Speaker 2: So we can get that kind of energizing connection even
Speaker 2: with a stranger that we are just meeting for the
Speaker 2: first time.
Speaker 1: And so how do you then apply that research when
Speaker 1: you're at a conference or at the dinner of hatty
Speaker 1: and you're encountering people that you don't know.
Speaker 2: The heart of a high quality connection is really being
Speaker 2: as present as you can in the moment. If we
Speaker 2: think about where high quality connections come from, right, we've
Speaker 2: talked about these physiological effects, but they're really felt through
Speaker 2: our senses. So whether that's through eyesight, touch is extraordinarily powerful,
Speaker 2: or listening is another example of the ways in which
Speaker 2: high quality connections are really created. And to move in
Speaker 2: this direction, the first and biggest piece, which I feel
Speaker 2: like is the biggest very of the most people, including me,
Speaker 2: based on a day to day basis, is just simply distraction,
Speaker 2: and that, in many ways is what can derail these
Speaker 2: the most. So there's great research doing that. In a conversation,
Speaker 2: just even simply having a phone on a table makes
Speaker 2: that conversation less enjoyable. It makes people feel that they're
Speaker 2: trusting their conversational partner less just simply the presence of
Speaker 2: a phone. There's another great example of this. There was
Speaker 2: a study that was done to try to understand how
Speaker 2: just how distracted can technology and phones in particular make us.
Speaker 2: And to figure this out, the researchers ask people just
Speaker 2: to be walking down the street, either without a phone
Speaker 2: in hand or not. And what they found is that
Speaker 2: and then they sent this is the punchline. Then they
Speaker 2: sent someone addressed as a clown unicycling by, and they
Speaker 2: found that two thirds of people who are on their
Speaker 2: phone did not even notice the person unicycling by. So
Speaker 2: this gives you a sense of just how much we
Speaker 2: can miss. And so it sounds like a very very
Speaker 2: simple place to start, But the truth is that most
Speaker 2: of us are distracted most of the time, often by technology.
Speaker 2: So the first piece is actually to just simply put
Speaker 2: away your phone and try to be fully present with
Speaker 2: the person that you're connecting with.
Speaker 1: Now, you mentioned listening, and you write a lot about listening,
Speaker 1: and I one of the statistics in your book stuck
Speaker 1: with me that ninety six percent of people think they
Speaker 1: are a good listener, which is probably quite untrue, So
Speaker 1: how can we listen better?
Speaker 2: Listening is one of these superpowers. I always say, if
Speaker 2: I could give a superpower to someone for human connection,
Speaker 2: it's listening, because it's so rare to truly be listened to.
Speaker 2: If you think about what often happens in conversation, people
Speaker 2: will derail a conversation. They're trying to be good listeners,
Speaker 2: but they'll derail a conversation by, for instance, jumping in
Speaker 2: with a oh, yeah, that happened to me, or oh listen,
Speaker 2: want something you know, a me too type of story,
Speaker 2: but that can often derail the conversation. Or they will
Speaker 2: try to offer advice, which is not necessarily what you're
Speaker 2: looking for. So one of the best ways that I
Speaker 2: found to just try to figure out like what's going
Speaker 2: on with me, like how well am I listening in
Speaker 2: a given moment, is to just simply, for instance, ask
Speaker 2: someone how like how are you doing today? Or ask
Speaker 2: a question and see how when I'm listening to them,
Speaker 2: to see what my tendencies are. Do I have these
Speaker 2: tendencies to want to jump in and fix their problem
Speaker 2: or and try to understand what am I doing and
Speaker 2: how quickly do I want to interrupt. There's great research
Speaker 2: that has looked at actually physicians in patient assessment, because
Speaker 2: in that research, listening is extraordinarily powerful, both in terms
Speaker 2: of reducing pain and healing, but also for how effective
Speaker 2: physicians are. And that research has found that after a
Speaker 2: physician ask a patient you know, why are you here,
Speaker 2: for instance, that they don't even when they know better
Speaker 2: that they'll only go seven teen seconds before they interrupt
Speaker 2: the patient. And if they just let them finish, which
Speaker 2: they oftentimes people say, well, won't they go on forever?
Speaker 2: And the case is that they usually don't go on
Speaker 2: beyond thirty seconds, but if they just give them the
Speaker 2: full span, the entire visit is much more effective and
Speaker 2: wraps up faster. And so for me, at the very beginning,
Speaker 2: I just had to actually practice sitting on my hands
Speaker 2: and keeping my mouth shut, which sounds like a ridiculous
Speaker 2: thing to say, but what I found is actually one
Speaker 2: of the best things that you can do in interaction
Speaker 2: is simply to do nothing. And doing this exercise time
Speaker 2: and time again, I've seen people literally brought to tears
Speaker 2: just by having the opportunity to truly be heard.
Speaker 1: Hello, there. It is nearly time for a little ad break.
Speaker 1: But before we do that, I never talk about my
Speaker 1: own social networks. But if you're on social media, and
Speaker 1: let's face who isn't, feel free to reach out and
Speaker 1: follow me. I'm on LinkedIn just search for Amantha Imba.
Speaker 1: I'm on Twitter at amantha super simple, and I'm now
Speaker 1: getting a little bit more active on Instagram where you
Speaker 1: can find me at at amantha I. So we will
Speaker 1: be back after this break where Marissa will be talking
Speaker 1: about how do you sever tize with friends or people
Speaker 1: in your networks and on the flip side, how Marissa
Speaker 1: approaches making new friends. I want to talk about network
Speaker 1: churn or network turnover, and I was really intrigued how
Speaker 1: you write about that our networks start to reduce in
Speaker 1: size from gosh, like I think it was our mid twenties,
Speaker 1: like quite young. And I was also in the same
Speaker 1: context just thinking about, well, how do you know when
Speaker 1: it's time to say goodbye to someone in your network,
Speaker 1: like maybe like a close friend or someone that you've
Speaker 1: known really well at work and perhaps you're realizing that
Speaker 1: that relationship is no longer serving you. And you talk
Speaker 1: about how breakups are rare, So what do you do
Speaker 1: when you recognize that a connection that you have is
Speaker 1: no longer serving you.
Speaker 2: Oh there's anything. There are two huge pieces of this.
Speaker 2: So the first piece is really just what's happening to
Speaker 2: how much our networks change over time. And as you mentioned,
Speaker 2: our networks are largest when we're twenty five, and then
Speaker 2: they tend to get just smaller and smaller over time.
Speaker 2: And one of the most striking things that you think
Speaker 2: has happened during the pandemic is actually just that reduction
Speaker 2: and the size of our network. So in my own research,
Speaker 2: I found that our networks overall, people's networks have shrunk
Speaker 2: by close to sixteen percent, but that's almost entirely due
Speaker 2: to reduction in the size of men's networks. So men's
Speaker 2: networks have shrunk by more than thirty five percent, which
Speaker 2: translates into roughly four hundred people. But women's networks have
Speaker 2: not shrunk at all. And what I think is really
Speaker 2: instructive about this reduction and network size in the and
Speaker 2: particularly with thinking about it in parallel to what happens
Speaker 2: over our life course, is this reduction in the size
Speaker 2: of our network it's really first off, unconscious, and the
Speaker 2: second pieces it's likely enduring. So what we know is
Speaker 2: that this reduction networks don't just naturally recover on their own,
Speaker 2: that you have to really reinvest in reinvigorating those relationships.
Speaker 2: But as you mentioned, right, most of us aren't thinking
Speaker 2: like this, right, Like we're not thinking about how to
Speaker 2: reinvigorate our networks, and we're also not thinking about when
Speaker 2: it's time to let go. So we're really just kind
Speaker 2: of driven by inertia and what's around us. Most people's
Speaker 2: networks that are really just accidents. It's just kind of
Speaker 2: like what's happening. But if we can start to be
Speaker 2: more intentional, whether that's more intentional with the respect to
Speaker 2: reaching out and reconnecting with people, or more intense about
Speaker 2: letting people go, because we all, no matter who you are, right,
Speaker 2: we all have a fixed amount of time in the day.
Speaker 2: And so it's are you going to invest in relationships
Speaker 2: that are positive, that bring you joy or maybe you
Speaker 2: know you may be helpful, or are you going to
Speaker 2: invest in worrying about you know, you're grumpy co worker
Speaker 2: or your aunt or your neighbor who's just constantly a nuisance.
Speaker 1: So what have you done in your own life? Like
Speaker 1: when you feel like okay, it's it's time to time
Speaker 1: to kind of sever this tie, particularly with someone that's
Speaker 1: a strong tie.
Speaker 2: Like, I think it's like just a conversation based around
Speaker 2: the idea that this isn't good for either of us,
Speaker 2: and a lot of times there's also an opportunity to
Speaker 2: just change the where you're investing your energy the time
Speaker 2: the time that it's refocusing on just allocation of time.
Speaker 2: But I think it's simply like a conversation about like,
Speaker 2: you know, there's a lot of I appreciated about this,
Speaker 2: but it's I don't think it's in either of our
Speaker 2: best interests time just to move and grow.
Speaker 1: Now on the flip side, in terms of growing our
Speaker 1: network or regrowing our network thanks to COVID, Like, I
Speaker 1: think a lot about you know, Like I'm a forty
Speaker 1: three year old female and I think about the process
Speaker 1: of making new friends because earlier in life, you know,
Speaker 1: there's all these opportunities to make new friends, like at
Speaker 1: school and university or college and so forth. But like
Speaker 1: I always wonder, like, you know, at my age, how
Speaker 1: does one go about making new friends? And I want
Speaker 1: to know for you, like, what's your process for making
Speaker 1: a new friend?
Speaker 2: Why it's so easy as you mentioned like why it's
Speaker 2: so easy to make friends in college in particular, Right,
Speaker 2: I always find it interesting to ask people to, you know,
Speaker 2: write down the five people non family members that you're
Speaker 2: closest to, and then the next column like write down
Speaker 2: or think about where you met them. And it's almost
Speaker 2: always in organizations or institutions, and particularly if you think
Speaker 2: about college or school, they have all the magic ingredients
Speaker 2: for already made relationship. Right, There's a common shared identity,
Speaker 2: there's coordinated social activities, and you have a lot of
Speaker 2: free time. And so when I think about how if
Speaker 2: I need to build or want to build new relationships,
Speaker 2: the idea is to try to think about, Okay, how
Speaker 2: can I find those common ingredients, And almost always it's
Speaker 2: by joining being a joiner, so trying to figure out
Speaker 2: a new area or a new interest or a new
Speaker 2: passion and then joining a group of other people who
Speaker 2: are interested, and that common identity and shared interest really
Speaker 2: helps relationships accelerate.
Speaker 1: In form that's interesting, like something I've found why my
Speaker 1: daughter is in year two at school, and I felt
Speaker 1: like the school moms would be this new social network
Speaker 1: for me and it just hasn't found out like that,
Speaker 1: Like Granted, I work full time and I'm not at
Speaker 1: every pickup and drop off. I'm at, you know, maybe
Speaker 1: about half or so every week, and I just haven't
Speaker 1: found that kind of social click. But I'm determined to
Speaker 1: like break through. What advice would you give me to
Speaker 1: help do that?
Speaker 2: Oh, I don't have any answers to that. I have
Speaker 2: the same issue myself. I mean, it's that piece the
Speaker 2: school parent friends is really difficult because those are your kids' friends.
Speaker 2: They're not your friends, and so this notion of finding
Speaker 2: a common interest or a shareground, it's really hard to
Speaker 2: move beyond the kids. And so I think that understanding
Speaker 2: that for me, that's the purpose of those relationships is like,
Speaker 2: they're really my kids friends. I just need to be
Speaker 2: nice enough that my kid has play dates. But for
Speaker 2: me to find in any relationship, right if it's that
Speaker 2: one or at work, I always try to remind myself, like,
Speaker 2: the goal isn't like that I need to like everyone
Speaker 2: or everyone likes needs to like me, but there just
Speaker 2: needs to be mutual respect. So that's how I focus
Speaker 2: on that. That's my approach to those types of relationships.
Speaker 2: And then I'm like, oh, I'll find my friends with
Speaker 2: their weird sense of humor, right like quirky things like
Speaker 2: outside my kid's school.
Speaker 1: That makes me feel so much better about like feeling
Speaker 1: like a bit of a failure with you know, forming
Speaker 1: really really good connections with the school moms. It's interesting.
Speaker 1: I formed, you know, a few new close friendships in
Speaker 1: my adult life, and I formed one recently in the
Speaker 1: last six months with this wonderful woman called me and
Speaker 1: we've got quite a lot in common, and I sort
Speaker 1: of I've been trying to unpack what has actually turned
Speaker 1: someone that I didn't know like six months ago into
Speaker 1: some one that feels like a really good friend now.
Speaker 1: And I feel like the frequency of our catch ups
Speaker 1: has certainly helped. But I guess, like, what what are
Speaker 1: the things Once you've joined something, you found someone with
Speaker 1: common interest, how do you actually then go about turning
Speaker 1: someone that you feel like you're clicking with into an
Speaker 1: actual friendship. What's been your process that you've gone through
Speaker 1: in your own life.
Speaker 2: I think defining demarcation and relationship is when you become
Speaker 2: willing to ask for help from someone. And because it's
Speaker 2: the herd see one of the defining differences between a
Speaker 2: casual acquaintance and a real friend is it would you
Speaker 2: turn to them at a time of need. And why
Speaker 2: that's important is when it shows vulnerability, but it also
Speaker 2: shows trust to the other person. And even today, for instance,
Speaker 2: our car broke down and like, I had a neighbor
Speaker 2: who's like, are they a neighbor? Are they a friend?
Speaker 2: And we had to call them for help, And that
Speaker 2: I think is actually a turning point at least in
Speaker 2: that's a turning point in the relationship. And a lot
Speaker 2: of people I think are really reluctant to ask for
Speaker 2: help in general. And one of the things that I
Speaker 2: find helpful in this regard is to realize that actually
Speaker 2: asking someone from help for help is really a gift
Speaker 2: because it allows them to have a sense of purpose,
Speaker 2: it allows them to feel a sense of mastery, and
Speaker 2: it also allows them to get outside of themselves. And
Speaker 2: I think it's the heart of human connection is really
Speaker 2: the mutual the ability to help one another and mutual help.
Speaker 2: And so that for me is one of the key
Speaker 2: ways of knowing, right if I'm really friends with someone
Speaker 2: or am I just a casual acquaintance.
Speaker 1: Is that like potentially a way to fast track a
Speaker 1: friendship by almost asking for help when you feel a
Speaker 1: little bit uncomfortable asking for help.
Speaker 2: Yes, it also is showing parts of yourself that you
Speaker 2: would necessarily want, right like if people to see. So
Speaker 2: it's at the heart rate of trust is also vulnerability.
Speaker 2: And so there's a question, right of does trust come
Speaker 2: first or does vulnerability come first? And I think it's
Speaker 2: it's kind of both. It's a mutually reinforcing process. But
Speaker 2: you can really fast track a relationship by being willing
Speaker 2: to either ask primarily by being willing to ask for help,
Speaker 2: but also you necessarily need to be willing to give it.
Speaker 1: There are they other tricks that you use for fast tracking,
Speaker 1: you know, like relationships or intimacy. In that regard, The.
Speaker 2: Other piece is related to this, which is just allowing
Speaker 2: people to see aspects of yourself, particularly the less perfect aspects.
Speaker 2: So I feel like so much of what happens on
Speaker 2: social media in the external world is trying to present
Speaker 2: this perfect image of our self, but no one really
Speaker 2: looks or lives like that. And by allowing people to
Speaker 2: see like, oh, this is how it really is, that
Speaker 2: that is a way of fostering authentic connection.
Speaker 1: I feel like like we can't have a conversation about
Speaker 1: networks without talking about social media, And I'd love to
Speaker 1: know what's your approach to using social media to build
Speaker 1: or foster or nurture your own networks.
Speaker 2: I try to avoid it as much as possible. It
Speaker 2: gets back to this question. It's often a substitute for
Speaker 2: really connecting with people, and social media is actually helpful
Speaker 2: for reinforcing existing sets of relationships. It's also helpful for
Speaker 2: building familiarity. We know that there's something called the mirror
Speaker 2: exposure effects. So the more you see something, whether that's
Speaker 2: a face or a symbol or a product, the more
Speaker 2: you like it. And so another thing that social media
Speaker 2: is good for is simply people will start to think
Speaker 2: they like you if they see you more. So that
Speaker 2: can also be an out of benefit of social media.
Speaker 2: But the truth is we all because of this limited
Speaker 2: amount of time, we have, have to choose where we're
Speaker 2: going to invest it. And for me, the investment always
Speaker 2: pays off when I'm actually being more present with the
Speaker 2: people that are physically around me than it is when
Speaker 2: I'm online.
Speaker 1: So that's really interesting. Like one thing I wonder about LinkedIn,
Speaker 1: which is probably the social network that I would invest
Speaker 1: most time and energy into, should I be accepting connections
Speaker 1: from people that I don't know.
Speaker 2: On LinkedIn, my answer is yes, I actually, of all
Speaker 2: the platforms, I think that there's a lot to be
Speaker 2: said for LinkedIn because there's a can you know what
Speaker 2: you're there for? Right? Like you're there to present a
Speaker 2: like a polished, a professional version of yourself, and it's
Speaker 2: pretty clear what it's for. So there's not this confusion
Speaker 2: that often happens in other sites around right like what
Speaker 2: am I projecting versus who I really am? Or what
Speaker 2: a message am I trying to send? Like, it's very
Speaker 2: clear what's happening there and I don't in there. I
Speaker 2: think there's no real drawback to expanding your community and
Speaker 2: having the opportunity to reach new ideas, And that's also
Speaker 2: one of the things that's been really powerful about There
Speaker 2: is a I would say a powerful positive of social
Speaker 2: media is that we actually tend to interact with people
Speaker 2: who are far more diverse on platforms. So research on
Speaker 2: LinkedIn has shown that this is true. So you can
Speaker 2: have connections that are far more diverse in online than
Speaker 2: you necessarily would in real life. So I would say
Speaker 2: go for it, right, you never know who you're going
Speaker 2: to bump into or what new ideas they may have.
Speaker 1: Now, I've heard that you have a weakely networking ritual.
Speaker 1: Can you tell me about that?
Speaker 2: So we know that there's extraordinary power in our existing networks,
Speaker 2: and arguably the thing that you can do to benefit
Speaker 2: your network the most is to reinvigorate connections. And based
Speaker 2: on work that was done on something called dormant ties,
Speaker 2: so people that you have not seen in two or
Speaker 2: three years. Research that was done by Dan Levin, who's
Speaker 2: a professor at Rutgers and his colleagues. They were curious
Speaker 2: about what are the benefits of these types of connections,
Speaker 2: and so they ask people to make a list of
Speaker 2: ten current connections and ten people that they haven't reached
Speaker 2: out to in two or three years, and then ask
Speaker 2: people to reach out to them for advice about a
Speaker 2: current project. And what they found is these ties, dormant ties,
Speaker 2: were extraordinarily powerful and both they provide new, more creative
Speaker 2: ideas in existing contexts, but also the trust endured within
Speaker 2: those relationships, so they were really enjoyable. So I have
Speaker 2: taken this and turned it into a practice where I
Speaker 2: write down two or three people and on Fridays I
Speaker 2: reach out to them just to say, hey, I'm thinking
Speaker 2: about you. There's often sometimes I will have and ask
Speaker 2: or something I'm hoping to get out of it, like
Speaker 2: I be back, or just I may have a question.
Speaker 2: But most of the time it's just hey, I'm thinking
Speaker 2: about you, and that for me has been both a
Speaker 2: source of great joy, but it's also been extraordinarily helpful.
Speaker 1: So in terms of what you say, like it might
Speaker 1: just be general I'm thinking about you, what some what
Speaker 1: are some other examples of I guess things that you've
Speaker 1: like reasons to reach out to someone that you've used.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for me, I like to think of this like
Speaker 2: there are three different ways of approaching this, and oftimes
Speaker 2: there are people are like, oh my god, isn't this
Speaker 2: going to be awkward? First, so just to say, I
Speaker 2: promise it's not. And the more you do it, the
Speaker 2: more you realize, like, oh, this is actually great. It's
Speaker 2: also helpful for me to imagine myself being in the
Speaker 2: other person's shoes. So if I imagine, like, oh, if
Speaker 2: I received this email, wouldn't I be happy to get it?
Speaker 2: And the answer is almost always yes. So I find
Speaker 2: that piece first helpful. So imagine now that you've gotten
Speaker 2: over the awkwardness. I always find it helpful that they right.
Speaker 2: Are there three different ways that I can do this
Speaker 2: that I know will help increase social connection and also
Speaker 2: just make for a positive interaction. The first is simply
Speaker 2: to thank someone. We know that gratitude is extremely powerful
Speaker 2: as a source of connection. So I may think of
Speaker 2: is there someone who was a mentor like this is
Speaker 2: who comes to mind right now? Is there a mentor
Speaker 2: or someone who gave me a piece of advice a
Speaker 2: couple of years ago, or someone when I was little,
Speaker 2: right they served as a role model, and just simply
Speaker 2: to reach out to them and thank them for what
Speaker 2: they've done. So that's one easy way that's always always positive.
Speaker 2: I mean, these are all always positive, but it's just
Speaker 2: so nice. The second is to think about what I
Speaker 2: can give. It can be as simple as hey, I
Speaker 2: saw this article or I was listening to this podcast,
Speaker 2: I thought you might like it. There are lots of
Speaker 2: things that we all have to give, particularly in this
Speaker 2: moment when people are so starved for social connection. Just
Speaker 2: saying like I'm thinking of you is in many ways
Speaker 2: a gift. But there are lots and lots of things
Speaker 2: that we have to give if we just start to
Speaker 2: think a little bit broader. And then the final is
Speaker 2: we were discussing previously is just simply to ask for help,
Speaker 2: which in many ways can be a gift of itself.
Speaker 1: So do you find that most people are writing back
Speaker 1: to you when you reach out in that way?
Speaker 2: Almost always? I can't even think of a time when
Speaker 2: they have it.
Speaker 1: Wow? And so you're doing this every week, Like, if
Speaker 1: you look back over the last year, what would you
Speaker 1: say the impact has been for you of really sticking
Speaker 1: to this weekly ritual.
Speaker 2: So, I mean, particularly during the past year, it's been
Speaker 2: a lifesaver in the sense that it has allowed me
Speaker 2: to feel connected during moments when I don't feel is
Speaker 2: connected as I possibly could be. My husband also does this,
Speaker 2: and it's really a nudge about doing it, and he
Speaker 2: found he wasn't looking for a job, but he ended
Speaker 2: up getting the job he had always wanted, working exactly
Speaker 2: with the people he wanted to work with, which was
Speaker 2: a game changer for our family. And I mean, it's
Speaker 2: just it makes me feel like a deeper sense of
Speaker 2: connection to my community. And I think there's no greater
Speaker 2: gift than that.
Speaker 1: I love it. Are there any other habits or rituals
Speaker 1: that you've tried to help maintain a healthy network.
Speaker 2: The biggest thing for me is also just realizing in
Speaker 2: any given moment, so I tend towards I tend towards
Speaker 2: being thinking, I'm really socially awkward, which makes me not
Speaker 2: want to engage with other people. And we know that
Speaker 2: this is common, right, So most people think that they're
Speaker 2: better than average at most things, So they think they're
Speaker 2: smarter than average, or they are better drive an average,
Speaker 2: But when it comes to social interaction, we know that
Speaker 2: we consistently underestimate how much people like us. So there's
Speaker 2: great research by Erica boothby showing this, and for me,
Speaker 2: one of the things that a practice't I wouldn't callut
Speaker 2: a ritual, but a practice that I try to keep
Speaker 2: in mind is that I'm far underestimating how much the
Speaker 2: other person truly wants to connect. And by reframing that
Speaker 2: and focusing on like, we as humans all really deeply
Speaker 2: want to connect and we all really want social interaction
Speaker 2: to go smoothly, And by reframing that, it's made it
Speaker 2: far more easier to navigate the everyday social interactions than
Speaker 2: it was before.
Speaker 1: Now Marissa. My final question for you, For people that
Speaker 1: want to connect with you in some way and get
Speaker 1: the hands on social chemistry, what is the best way
Speaker 1: for people to do that.
Speaker 2: You can learn more about me and my work at
Speaker 2: Marissa King dot com and I'd love to connect with
Speaker 2: you on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1: Of course, whether you know them or not exactly. Oh,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for your time, Marissa. It has
Speaker 1: been absolutely fascinating.
Speaker 2: It was a pleasure. Thanks for talking with me.
Speaker 1: Hello there, That is it for today's show. If you
Speaker 1: enjoyed today's episode, why not share it with someone else
Speaker 1: that you think would benefit and maybe get some useful
Speaker 1: tips to improve the way that they work. How I
Speaker 1: Work is produced by Inventing with production support from dead
Speaker 1: Set Studios. And thank you to Martin Nimba who does
Speaker 1: the audio mix for every show and makes everything sound
Speaker 1: so much better than it would have otherwise. See you
Speaker 1: next time.