1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: Hello there, it's Amantha. I'm currently on a Christmas break, 2 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:08,399 Speaker 1: so I've handpicked a bunch of my favorite episodes from 3 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:11,880 Speaker 1: the last year to share with you. Okay, on with 4 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 1: today's best of episode. If someone were to ask you 5 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:20,920 Speaker 1: how you define a healthy professional network, the first thing 6 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: you probably think about is size, like how many people 7 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: you know and if you were looking for a job 8 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: or help on a project, how many people do you have? 9 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: And your virtual rolodex that you could call. But Marissa 10 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:37,239 Speaker 1: King knows that there is a lot more to a 11 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:41,919 Speaker 1: healthy network than size. Marissa is a professor of organizational 12 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:45,239 Speaker 1: behavior at the Yale School of Management, and she's been 13 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: studying social networks for the past fifteen years. She's also 14 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: the author of Social Chemistry, where she explores how anyone 15 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: can build more meaningful and productive relationships. So how does 16 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 1: someone who's studied networking approach meeting new people at a conference? 17 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 1: And how does Marissa go about making new friends? And 18 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: what does the research say about how we can make 19 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: ourselves more likable in social situations. I'm doctor Ramantha Imba. 20 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science 21 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: consultancy Inventium, and this is how I work a show 22 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: that helps you do your best work. So, given Marisa 23 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: has dedicated her professional life to studying networks, I was 24 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: very keen to understand what kind of a networker she 25 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: saw herself as being. 26 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 2: I would probably start with thinking, I'm a very reluctant networker. 27 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 2: Why is that Like a lot of people, I feel 28 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 2: really uncomfortable at least they used to feel really uncomfortable 29 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 2: about being intentional about relationship. And that was one of 30 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 2: the reasons that I have really delved into this topic. 31 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 2: And when I started my career, I had spent you know, 32 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 2: the early part of my career purely in research, so 33 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 2: in the bottom of the basement with no windows, coding 34 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 2: computers all day, studying networks and how they work. And 35 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 2: then when it came time to really get into the 36 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:24,919 Speaker 2: professional realm, I kept getting this advice like, you need 37 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 2: to network, you need to get out there, you need 38 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:30,959 Speaker 2: to meet new people. And that for me was just paralyzing. 39 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 2: And the more afraid I got, the harder it was. 40 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: So I've changed your approach then to like mazing new 41 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:44,639 Speaker 1: people from the research that you've done over the years. 42 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 2: Fundamentally, right, we often teach what we need, And a 43 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 2: lot of what I've tried to do is to understand 44 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 2: what are some of the basic things that we know 45 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 2: from social science and how relationships work, and start to 46 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 2: apply those in my own life. So as an example, 47 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 2: this idea of you know, like networking, oftentimes people feel 48 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 2: awkward about or it makes us feel dirty. There's great 49 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 2: research that was done by Tusiana Kutarot Rutman and Francesco 50 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:19,799 Speaker 2: at Geno of Harvard when they actually delved into this 51 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 2: and what they found when they asked people to recall 52 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 2: different types of interactions. So imagine a spontaneous interaction that's 53 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,119 Speaker 2: purely social. You bump into someone at a coffee shop 54 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 2: and they become a friend, or a certain type of 55 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 2: what we often think of is networking, right, a certain 56 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 2: type of social interaction. You're going somewhere with a professional 57 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 2: objective in mind. And what they found is that when 58 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 2: people think of networking and they were just simply asked 59 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 2: to write about it and recall it compared to other 60 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 2: types of social interaction, that they were twice as likely 61 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 2: to recall cleansing words like wash or wish. So it 62 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 2: really taps into this idea like that we many people 63 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 2: have this natural moral aversion. But one of the things 64 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 2: that they found that I've really tried to apply and 65 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 2: has been extraordinarily helpful in my own approach to relationships 66 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 2: is to think about instead of what I could get 67 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,279 Speaker 2: out of a social interaction. So that's this instrumental calculating part. 68 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 2: If I reframe that and think about what can I 69 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 2: give instead, that that really has helped me overcome all 70 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 2: this reluctance about being really intentional or instrumental about my relationships. 71 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,720 Speaker 1: So given that, let's just say you're at a conference, 72 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 1: how do you then approach meeting new people? 73 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 2: Well, the first thing is to try to change the 74 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 2: orientation of instead of what can I get out of this? 75 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:46,719 Speaker 2: Is there some way I can be of service or 76 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 2: help other people? But that is just like the tip 77 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 2: of the iceberg. So we know that part of the 78 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 2: reluctance or resistance people have to networking comes from this 79 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 2: feeling of like ickiness or unease. But a second piece 80 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 2: of it comes from feeling like you don't know how 81 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 2: to do this. So and I fall into this category too. 82 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 2: So not only am I reluctant to do it, I 83 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 2: often feel like I don't actually know how to do this. 84 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 2: I'm deeply, deeply and I wouldn't say interpreted, but I'm 85 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 2: really guarded. And so the idea for me of if 86 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 2: I'm at a conference, of walking into a networking event, 87 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 2: it pretty much is paralynztic. Like I to a large 88 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 2: extent avoid purposely avoid situations like that. But what I 89 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 2: do know, and what I found extraordinarily helpful, is that 90 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:41,480 Speaker 2: by having some very very basic tools in my tool kit, 91 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:45,479 Speaker 2: I can approach those situations with less fear, which allows 92 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 2: me to engage more authentically. So I can give an 93 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 2: example of doing this. So now you've, as you mentioned 94 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 2: right that I do going to a conference. It calls 95 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 2: to mind like walking into one of these big rooms, 96 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 2: but I don't know anybody, and for me that often 97 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 2: feels like I'm just walking into a wall or an 98 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 2: ocean of people. But what we know from research is 99 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 2: that people write don't form walls or oceans, that they 100 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 2: tend to actually clump together in small groups. So if 101 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 2: I can see instead of this ocean of people, just 102 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 2: wall islands of people, then the question is like, Okay, 103 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 2: now they're islands, So this feels a little bit more manageable. 104 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 2: What am I going to do next? Well, we know 105 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 2: again from research that was done using wearable sensors at 106 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 2: these types of events, that, like most people, I would 107 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 2: try to find someone I already know, even if my 108 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 2: goal is that I'm going to be new people, I 109 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 2: would usually try to stick to someone I know. But 110 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 2: I know that that's not a good strategy. So setting 111 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 2: that aside, what we know is that people almost always 112 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 2: interact in groups of two or diets. It's really the 113 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 2: most fundamental unit of human interaction. We have two eyes, 114 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 2: and we have two ears, and our hearing does something 115 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 2: that's known as the cocktail party effect. It really hones 116 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 2: in on a single voice. So that means that if 117 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 2: you can find an island with an odd number of people, 118 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 2: whether that's three, five, seven, it doesn't really matter. If 119 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 2: there's an odd number of people there, there's someone who 120 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 2: really isn't a part of the conversation that is likely 121 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 2: looking for a conversational partner. And so that very basic 122 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 2: strategy for me has become critical to starting to navigate 123 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 2: a lot of the social anxiety I feel in these 124 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 2: types of situations, because it gives me direction. So that's 125 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 2: one of the things that's helped me out with conferences 126 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 2: and other professional events. So, particularly when I feel like 127 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 2: I don't really know what to do here, having a 128 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 2: feeling like I have some little playbook helps. 129 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: I love that look for odd numbers. It's so practical 130 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: and simple. What are some other tools that you're using 131 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: at these kinds of events? 132 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 2: For me, one of the pieces that I try to 133 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 2: keep in mindor what are some of the things that 134 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 2: just lead to natural social chemistry. There's great research that 135 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 2: has shown that one of the best things that you 136 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 2: can do in a conversation is actually ask follow up questions. 137 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 2: So asking questions in general makes people more likable, but 138 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 2: we know that the follow up question actually has particular power, 139 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 2: and in part that because it shows that you're really 140 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 2: listening to the other person and so once so now 141 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 2: you're your odd numbered island. You found someone to talk to, 142 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 2: and really just listening to them and engaging with them 143 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 2: and continuing to ask all up questions really not only 144 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 2: increases the sense of liking, but it deepens the conversation, 145 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 2: and the more depth that there has to conversation, the 146 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 2: easier it is to truly connect. 147 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: That's really interesting. I was intrigued when I was reading 148 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: your book Social Chemistry. You actually talk about there are 149 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: six types of questions that we can ask, follow up 150 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: questions being the most powerful. Are there any other kinds 151 00:08:56,440 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: of questions that can help us get into an interesting 152 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: territory that will lead to those follow up questions? 153 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 2: I think one of the things that we also know 154 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:13,439 Speaker 2: about just how conversations normally unfold is there's a secret 155 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 2: ingredients is also what I think of as mutual reciprocal 156 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,319 Speaker 2: self disclosure. And so there's a great study that was 157 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 2: done by Arthur Aeron's which and it famously became like 158 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 2: the thirty six Questions to fall in Love. But what's 159 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 2: key about the way that those questions unfold is that 160 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 2: they get with increasing depth. But what I've found also 161 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 2: is true is that people will often try to meet 162 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 2: you where you are. So, for instance, in a conversation, 163 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:45,559 Speaker 2: if I'm honest and open, that encourages the other person 164 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 2: to be honest and open to So an example of 165 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 2: this is a common opening question is like how are 166 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,719 Speaker 2: you doing today? And lots of people right just use 167 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 2: that it's a throwaway like oh I'm good, how are you? 168 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 2: Or talk about the weather, But to really build a relationship, 169 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 2: and particularly to accelerate the building the relationship process, you 170 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 2: need to go far beyond that, right, and you also 171 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 2: need to go beyond what I could learn by googling 172 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 2: you or seeing on your CV and so oftens. When 173 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 2: people ask me that I tell them truly how I'm 174 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 2: doing today, and that honesty is usually met with equal 175 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,679 Speaker 2: honesty and openness, not all the time, but when it is, 176 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 2: it really just changes the tenor of the conversation and 177 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 2: makes connecting far easier. 178 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: So how much would you typically share? Because you also 179 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: talk about, you know, research into oversharing and that can 180 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: that can have, you know, not great consequences. So how 181 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 1: do you sort of gauge how much to share, how 182 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 1: vulnerable to make yourself when you are first connecting with someone. 183 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 2: It's such a good question, and I think that this 184 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 2: is particularly if you're trying to do this so at 185 00:10:54,640 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 2: work or certain situations, understanding what are they can straints 186 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 2: and particularly like imagining the other person, because for this 187 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 2: to be comfortable for everybody, I often say, like, you 188 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 2: need two things. It's a part of the essential elements 189 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,959 Speaker 2: for these types of conversations, which are safety in structure, right, 190 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 2: So the structured interaction part is that we're talking about 191 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 2: something rather than just open conversation. So this is why 192 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 2: in general, just having a cocktail party or a work 193 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 2: event with no purpose it's really really difficult. Instead, if 194 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 2: you're ideally, if we go back to that previous scenario 195 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 2: and we imagine that we're setting the stage or designing 196 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 2: this interaction, ideally that there's going to be something to 197 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 2: talk about, the mutual safe ground. So if that's true, 198 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 2: it makes it a lot easier. When that's not true, 199 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 2: what you're looking for is that you want to engage 200 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 2: in conversation that's aimed at mutual discovery, but in a 201 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 2: place that right like, I'm not going to tell you 202 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,679 Speaker 2: about I mean I personally, For instance, I don't really 203 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 2: talk about my family life. I don't talk about there's 204 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:07,959 Speaker 2: lots of a lot of people do, but I'm really private, 205 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 2: as I mentioned. So the idea is I let you 206 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 2: know things about myself, maybe where I grew up or 207 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 2: a really transformative experience I had a great question to 208 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 2: ask people, or what are you really excited about right now? 209 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 2: Because it allows you to tap into passion, it allows 210 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 2: you to tap into identity, but it's giving the person 211 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 2: a lot of control over what the boundaries of discussion are, 212 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 2: which creates the safety that's so essential. 213 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 1: Now in your book, you write about Jane Dutton's work 214 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: into high quality connections, and I was curious as to, well, firstly, 215 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: if you could define what a high quality connection is, 216 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: but then how do you think about using that research 217 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,839 Speaker 1: in creating those high quality connections when you are meeting 218 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: new people. 219 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 2: A high quality connection is a connection that's really positively 220 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 2: energizing in the moment, that has a lot of resilience. 221 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 2: So it's not when I say it's positively energizing, it's 222 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:08,599 Speaker 2: not just like that makes you feel happy, but that 223 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 2: it strikes an emotional core in a way that is 224 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 2: energizing but also has the ability to hold a lot 225 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 2: of emotion. And that can be it's difficult to articulate, 226 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 2: but you know when you're in them. And that's one 227 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 2: of the really powerful pieces of a high quality connection 228 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 2: is it has true physiological effects. So when you're in 229 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 2: a high quality connection, for instance, your cortisol levels, which 230 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 2: are a biomarker of stress, lower, your heart rate slows down, 231 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 2: your breathing slows down. So we're really wired physically to 232 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 2: be in these types of connections and they can happen. 233 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 2: Which is so powerful is they can happen in a moment, 234 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 2: So we can get that kind of energizing connection even 235 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 2: with a stranger that we are just meeting for the 236 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 2: first time. 237 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: And so how do you then apply that research when 238 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 1: you're at a conference or at the dinner of hatty 239 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 1: and you're encountering people that you don't know. 240 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 2: The heart of a high quality connection is really being 241 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 2: as present as you can in the moment. If we 242 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 2: think about where high quality connections come from, right, we've 243 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 2: talked about these physiological effects, but they're really felt through 244 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 2: our senses. So whether that's through eyesight, touch is extraordinarily powerful, 245 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 2: or listening is another example of the ways in which 246 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 2: high quality connections are really created. And to move in 247 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 2: this direction, the first and biggest piece, which I feel 248 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 2: like is the biggest very of the most people, including me, 249 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 2: based on a day to day basis, is just simply distraction, 250 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 2: and that, in many ways is what can derail these 251 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 2: the most. So there's great research doing that. In a conversation, 252 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 2: just even simply having a phone on a table makes 253 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 2: that conversation less enjoyable. It makes people feel that they're 254 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 2: trusting their conversational partner less just simply the presence of 255 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 2: a phone. There's another great example of this. There was 256 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 2: a study that was done to try to understand how 257 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 2: just how distracted can technology and phones in particular make us. 258 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 2: And to figure this out, the researchers ask people just 259 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 2: to be walking down the street, either without a phone 260 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 2: in hand or not. And what they found is that 261 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 2: and then they sent this is the punchline. Then they 262 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 2: sent someone addressed as a clown unicycling by, and they 263 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 2: found that two thirds of people who are on their 264 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 2: phone did not even notice the person unicycling by. So 265 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 2: this gives you a sense of just how much we 266 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 2: can miss. And so it sounds like a very very 267 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 2: simple place to start, But the truth is that most 268 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 2: of us are distracted most of the time, often by technology. 269 00:15:57,480 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 2: So the first piece is actually to just simply put 270 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 2: away your phone and try to be fully present with 271 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 2: the person that you're connecting with. 272 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: Now, you mentioned listening, and you write a lot about listening, 273 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: and I one of the statistics in your book stuck 274 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 1: with me that ninety six percent of people think they 275 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: are a good listener, which is probably quite untrue, So 276 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: how can we listen better? 277 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 2: Listening is one of these superpowers. I always say, if 278 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 2: I could give a superpower to someone for human connection, 279 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 2: it's listening, because it's so rare to truly be listened to. 280 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 2: If you think about what often happens in conversation, people 281 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 2: will derail a conversation. They're trying to be good listeners, 282 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 2: but they'll derail a conversation by, for instance, jumping in 283 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 2: with a oh, yeah, that happened to me, or oh listen, 284 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 2: want something you know, a me too type of story, 285 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 2: but that can often derail the conversation. Or they will 286 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 2: try to offer advice, which is not necessarily what you're 287 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 2: looking for. So one of the best ways that I 288 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 2: found to just try to figure out like what's going 289 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:07,879 Speaker 2: on with me, like how well am I listening in 290 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,920 Speaker 2: a given moment, is to just simply, for instance, ask 291 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 2: someone how like how are you doing today? Or ask 292 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 2: a question and see how when I'm listening to them, 293 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 2: to see what my tendencies are. Do I have these 294 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 2: tendencies to want to jump in and fix their problem 295 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:31,640 Speaker 2: or and try to understand what am I doing and 296 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 2: how quickly do I want to interrupt. There's great research 297 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 2: that has looked at actually physicians in patient assessment, because 298 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 2: in that research, listening is extraordinarily powerful, both in terms 299 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 2: of reducing pain and healing, but also for how effective 300 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 2: physicians are. And that research has found that after a 301 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 2: physician ask a patient you know, why are you here, 302 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 2: for instance, that they don't even when they know better 303 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:02,400 Speaker 2: that they'll only go seven teen seconds before they interrupt 304 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 2: the patient. And if they just let them finish, which 305 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,639 Speaker 2: they oftentimes people say, well, won't they go on forever? 306 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,199 Speaker 2: And the case is that they usually don't go on 307 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 2: beyond thirty seconds, but if they just give them the 308 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 2: full span, the entire visit is much more effective and 309 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 2: wraps up faster. And so for me, at the very beginning, 310 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 2: I just had to actually practice sitting on my hands 311 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,159 Speaker 2: and keeping my mouth shut, which sounds like a ridiculous 312 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 2: thing to say, but what I found is actually one 313 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 2: of the best things that you can do in interaction 314 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 2: is simply to do nothing. And doing this exercise time 315 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 2: and time again, I've seen people literally brought to tears 316 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 2: just by having the opportunity to truly be heard. 317 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 1: Hello, there. It is nearly time for a little ad break. 318 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,719 Speaker 1: But before we do that, I never talk about my 319 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 1: own social networks. But if you're on social media, and 320 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,199 Speaker 1: let's face who isn't, feel free to reach out and 321 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: follow me. I'm on LinkedIn just search for Amantha Imba. 322 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,920 Speaker 1: I'm on Twitter at amantha super simple, and I'm now 323 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 1: getting a little bit more active on Instagram where you 324 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:16,680 Speaker 1: can find me at at amantha I. So we will 325 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 1: be back after this break where Marissa will be talking 326 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 1: about how do you sever tize with friends or people 327 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 1: in your networks and on the flip side, how Marissa 328 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: approaches making new friends. I want to talk about network 329 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:36,640 Speaker 1: churn or network turnover, and I was really intrigued how 330 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: you write about that our networks start to reduce in 331 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: size from gosh, like I think it was our mid twenties, 332 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 1: like quite young. And I was also in the same 333 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 1: context just thinking about, well, how do you know when 334 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 1: it's time to say goodbye to someone in your network, 335 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: like maybe like a close friend or someone that you've 336 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 1: known really well at work and perhaps you're realizing that 337 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:06,200 Speaker 1: that relationship is no longer serving you. And you talk 338 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: about how breakups are rare, So what do you do 339 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: when you recognize that a connection that you have is 340 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: no longer serving you. 341 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 2: Oh there's anything. There are two huge pieces of this. 342 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:24,639 Speaker 2: So the first piece is really just what's happening to 343 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:28,719 Speaker 2: how much our networks change over time. And as you mentioned, 344 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 2: our networks are largest when we're twenty five, and then 345 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 2: they tend to get just smaller and smaller over time. 346 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,640 Speaker 2: And one of the most striking things that you think 347 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 2: has happened during the pandemic is actually just that reduction 348 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 2: and the size of our network. So in my own research, 349 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 2: I found that our networks overall, people's networks have shrunk 350 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 2: by close to sixteen percent, but that's almost entirely due 351 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,439 Speaker 2: to reduction in the size of men's networks. So men's 352 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,440 Speaker 2: networks have shrunk by more than thirty five percent, which 353 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 2: translates into roughly four hundred people. But women's networks have 354 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 2: not shrunk at all. And what I think is really 355 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:07,879 Speaker 2: instructive about this reduction and network size in the and 356 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 2: particularly with thinking about it in parallel to what happens 357 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 2: over our life course, is this reduction in the size 358 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 2: of our network it's really first off, unconscious, and the 359 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 2: second pieces it's likely enduring. So what we know is 360 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 2: that this reduction networks don't just naturally recover on their own, 361 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 2: that you have to really reinvest in reinvigorating those relationships. 362 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 2: But as you mentioned, right, most of us aren't thinking 363 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,919 Speaker 2: like this, right, Like we're not thinking about how to 364 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 2: reinvigorate our networks, and we're also not thinking about when 365 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 2: it's time to let go. So we're really just kind 366 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 2: of driven by inertia and what's around us. Most people's 367 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 2: networks that are really just accidents. It's just kind of 368 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:52,879 Speaker 2: like what's happening. But if we can start to be 369 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 2: more intentional, whether that's more intentional with the respect to 370 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 2: reaching out and reconnecting with people, or more intense about 371 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 2: letting people go, because we all, no matter who you are, right, 372 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 2: we all have a fixed amount of time in the day. 373 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 2: And so it's are you going to invest in relationships 374 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 2: that are positive, that bring you joy or maybe you 375 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 2: know you may be helpful, or are you going to 376 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:21,639 Speaker 2: invest in worrying about you know, you're grumpy co worker 377 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 2: or your aunt or your neighbor who's just constantly a nuisance. 378 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: So what have you done in your own life? Like 379 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 1: when you feel like okay, it's it's time to time 380 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 1: to kind of sever this tie, particularly with someone that's 381 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 1: a strong tie. 382 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 2: Like, I think it's like just a conversation based around 383 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,120 Speaker 2: the idea that this isn't good for either of us, 384 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 2: and a lot of times there's also an opportunity to 385 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:54,439 Speaker 2: just change the where you're investing your energy the time 386 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,880 Speaker 2: the time that it's refocusing on just allocation of time. 387 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 2: But I think it's simply like a conversation about like, 388 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 2: you know, there's a lot of I appreciated about this, 389 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 2: but it's I don't think it's in either of our 390 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 2: best interests time just to move and grow. 391 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: Now on the flip side, in terms of growing our 392 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: network or regrowing our network thanks to COVID, Like, I 393 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: think a lot about you know, Like I'm a forty 394 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 1: three year old female and I think about the process 395 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 1: of making new friends because earlier in life, you know, 396 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:29,919 Speaker 1: there's all these opportunities to make new friends, like at 397 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,919 Speaker 1: school and university or college and so forth. But like 398 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 1: I always wonder, like, you know, at my age, how 399 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: does one go about making new friends? And I want 400 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 1: to know for you, like, what's your process for making 401 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: a new friend? 402 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,360 Speaker 2: Why it's so easy as you mentioned like why it's 403 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 2: so easy to make friends in college in particular, Right, 404 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 2: I always find it interesting to ask people to, you know, 405 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 2: write down the five people non family members that you're 406 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:02,159 Speaker 2: closest to, and then the next column like write down 407 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 2: or think about where you met them. And it's almost 408 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:10,400 Speaker 2: always in organizations or institutions, and particularly if you think 409 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 2: about college or school, they have all the magic ingredients 410 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 2: for already made relationship. Right, There's a common shared identity, 411 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 2: there's coordinated social activities, and you have a lot of 412 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,120 Speaker 2: free time. And so when I think about how if 413 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 2: I need to build or want to build new relationships, 414 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 2: the idea is to try to think about, Okay, how 415 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 2: can I find those common ingredients, And almost always it's 416 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 2: by joining being a joiner, so trying to figure out 417 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:44,400 Speaker 2: a new area or a new interest or a new 418 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 2: passion and then joining a group of other people who 419 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 2: are interested, and that common identity and shared interest really 420 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 2: helps relationships accelerate. 421 00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 1: In form that's interesting, like something I've found why my 422 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 1: daughter is in year two at school, and I felt 423 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: like the school moms would be this new social network 424 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 1: for me and it just hasn't found out like that, 425 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,159 Speaker 1: Like Granted, I work full time and I'm not at 426 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: every pickup and drop off. I'm at, you know, maybe 427 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 1: about half or so every week, and I just haven't 428 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: found that kind of social click. But I'm determined to 429 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 1: like break through. What advice would you give me to 430 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:30,119 Speaker 1: help do that? 431 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 2: Oh, I don't have any answers to that. I have 432 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 2: the same issue myself. I mean, it's that piece the 433 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:45,439 Speaker 2: school parent friends is really difficult because those are your kids' friends. 434 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,679 Speaker 2: They're not your friends, and so this notion of finding 435 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,440 Speaker 2: a common interest or a shareground, it's really hard to 436 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 2: move beyond the kids. And so I think that understanding 437 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 2: that for me, that's the purpose of those relationships is like, 438 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 2: they're really my kids friends. I just need to be 439 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 2: nice enough that my kid has play dates. But for 440 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 2: me to find in any relationship, right if it's that 441 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 2: one or at work, I always try to remind myself, like, 442 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 2: the goal isn't like that I need to like everyone 443 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,159 Speaker 2: or everyone likes needs to like me, but there just 444 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,439 Speaker 2: needs to be mutual respect. So that's how I focus 445 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 2: on that. That's my approach to those types of relationships. 446 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:25,680 Speaker 2: And then I'm like, oh, I'll find my friends with 447 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 2: their weird sense of humor, right like quirky things like 448 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 2: outside my kid's school. 449 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,919 Speaker 1: That makes me feel so much better about like feeling 450 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 1: like a bit of a failure with you know, forming 451 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,160 Speaker 1: really really good connections with the school moms. It's interesting. 452 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: I formed, you know, a few new close friendships in 453 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: my adult life, and I formed one recently in the 454 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,679 Speaker 1: last six months with this wonderful woman called me and 455 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,400 Speaker 1: we've got quite a lot in common, and I sort 456 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,920 Speaker 1: of I've been trying to unpack what has actually turned 457 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 1: someone that I didn't know like six months ago into 458 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 1: some one that feels like a really good friend now. 459 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 1: And I feel like the frequency of our catch ups 460 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 1: has certainly helped. But I guess, like, what what are 461 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: the things Once you've joined something, you found someone with 462 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: common interest, how do you actually then go about turning 463 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: someone that you feel like you're clicking with into an 464 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 1: actual friendship. What's been your process that you've gone through 465 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 1: in your own life. 466 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 2: I think defining demarcation and relationship is when you become 467 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 2: willing to ask for help from someone. And because it's 468 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 2: the herd see one of the defining differences between a 469 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 2: casual acquaintance and a real friend is it would you 470 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 2: turn to them at a time of need. And why 471 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 2: that's important is when it shows vulnerability, but it also 472 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 2: shows trust to the other person. And even today, for instance, 473 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 2: our car broke down and like, I had a neighbor 474 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 2: who's like, are they a neighbor? Are they a friend? 475 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 2: And we had to call them for help, And that 476 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,159 Speaker 2: I think is actually a turning point at least in 477 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 2: that's a turning point in the relationship. And a lot 478 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,719 Speaker 2: of people I think are really reluctant to ask for 479 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,639 Speaker 2: help in general. And one of the things that I 480 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 2: find helpful in this regard is to realize that actually 481 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,679 Speaker 2: asking someone from help for help is really a gift 482 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:17,920 Speaker 2: because it allows them to have a sense of purpose, 483 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 2: it allows them to feel a sense of mastery, and 484 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,159 Speaker 2: it also allows them to get outside of themselves. And 485 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 2: I think it's the heart of human connection is really 486 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 2: the mutual the ability to help one another and mutual help. 487 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,719 Speaker 2: And so that for me is one of the key 488 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 2: ways of knowing, right if I'm really friends with someone 489 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 2: or am I just a casual acquaintance. 490 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: Is that like potentially a way to fast track a 491 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: friendship by almost asking for help when you feel a 492 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 1: little bit uncomfortable asking for help. 493 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 2: Yes, it also is showing parts of yourself that you 494 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 2: would necessarily want, right like if people to see. So 495 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 2: it's at the heart rate of trust is also vulnerability. 496 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 2: And so there's a question, right of does trust come 497 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 2: first or does vulnerability come first? And I think it's 498 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,719 Speaker 2: it's kind of both. It's a mutually reinforcing process. But 499 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 2: you can really fast track a relationship by being willing 500 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 2: to either ask primarily by being willing to ask for help, 501 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,959 Speaker 2: but also you necessarily need to be willing to give it. 502 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 1: There are they other tricks that you use for fast tracking, 503 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: you know, like relationships or intimacy. In that regard, The. 504 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 2: Other piece is related to this, which is just allowing 505 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 2: people to see aspects of yourself, particularly the less perfect aspects. 506 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 2: So I feel like so much of what happens on 507 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 2: social media in the external world is trying to present 508 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 2: this perfect image of our self, but no one really 509 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 2: looks or lives like that. And by allowing people to 510 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 2: see like, oh, this is how it really is, that 511 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 2: that is a way of fostering authentic connection. 512 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 1: I feel like like we can't have a conversation about 513 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: networks without talking about social media, And I'd love to 514 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: know what's your approach to using social media to build 515 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: or foster or nurture your own networks. 516 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,479 Speaker 2: I try to avoid it as much as possible. It 517 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 2: gets back to this question. It's often a substitute for 518 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 2: really connecting with people, and social media is actually helpful 519 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 2: for reinforcing existing sets of relationships. It's also helpful for 520 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 2: building familiarity. We know that there's something called the mirror 521 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 2: exposure effects. So the more you see something, whether that's 522 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 2: a face or a symbol or a product, the more 523 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 2: you like it. And so another thing that social media 524 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 2: is good for is simply people will start to think 525 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 2: they like you if they see you more. So that 526 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 2: can also be an out of benefit of social media. 527 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 2: But the truth is we all because of this limited 528 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 2: amount of time, we have, have to choose where we're 529 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 2: going to invest it. And for me, the investment always 530 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 2: pays off when I'm actually being more present with the 531 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 2: people that are physically around me than it is when 532 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 2: I'm online. 533 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 1: So that's really interesting. Like one thing I wonder about LinkedIn, 534 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 1: which is probably the social network that I would invest 535 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 1: most time and energy into, should I be accepting connections 536 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: from people that I don't know. 537 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 2: On LinkedIn, my answer is yes, I actually, of all 538 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 2: the platforms, I think that there's a lot to be 539 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 2: said for LinkedIn because there's a can you know what 540 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 2: you're there for? Right? Like you're there to present a 541 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 2: like a polished, a professional version of yourself, and it's 542 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 2: pretty clear what it's for. So there's not this confusion 543 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 2: that often happens in other sites around right like what 544 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 2: am I projecting versus who I really am? Or what 545 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 2: a message am I trying to send? Like, it's very 546 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 2: clear what's happening there and I don't in there. I 547 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,479 Speaker 2: think there's no real drawback to expanding your community and 548 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 2: having the opportunity to reach new ideas, And that's also 549 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 2: one of the things that's been really powerful about There 550 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 2: is a I would say a powerful positive of social 551 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 2: media is that we actually tend to interact with people 552 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 2: who are far more diverse on platforms. So research on 553 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 2: LinkedIn has shown that this is true. So you can 554 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 2: have connections that are far more diverse in online than 555 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 2: you necessarily would in real life. So I would say 556 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 2: go for it, right, you never know who you're going 557 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 2: to bump into or what new ideas they may have. 558 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 1: Now, I've heard that you have a weakely networking ritual. 559 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 1: Can you tell me about that? 560 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 2: So we know that there's extraordinary power in our existing networks, 561 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 2: and arguably the thing that you can do to benefit 562 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 2: your network the most is to reinvigorate connections. And based 563 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 2: on work that was done on something called dormant ties, 564 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 2: so people that you have not seen in two or 565 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 2: three years. Research that was done by Dan Levin, who's 566 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 2: a professor at Rutgers and his colleagues. They were curious 567 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 2: about what are the benefits of these types of connections, 568 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 2: and so they ask people to make a list of 569 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 2: ten current connections and ten people that they haven't reached 570 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 2: out to in two or three years, and then ask 571 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 2: people to reach out to them for advice about a 572 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 2: current project. And what they found is these ties, dormant ties, 573 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 2: were extraordinarily powerful and both they provide new, more creative 574 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 2: ideas in existing contexts, but also the trust endured within 575 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 2: those relationships, so they were really enjoyable. So I have 576 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 2: taken this and turned it into a practice where I 577 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 2: write down two or three people and on Fridays I 578 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 2: reach out to them just to say, hey, I'm thinking 579 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 2: about you. There's often sometimes I will have and ask 580 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 2: or something I'm hoping to get out of it, like 581 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 2: I be back, or just I may have a question. 582 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,479 Speaker 2: But most of the time it's just hey, I'm thinking 583 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 2: about you, and that for me has been both a 584 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 2: source of great joy, but it's also been extraordinarily helpful. 585 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:16,879 Speaker 1: So in terms of what you say, like it might 586 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 1: just be general I'm thinking about you, what some what 587 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 1: are some other examples of I guess things that you've 588 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 1: like reasons to reach out to someone that you've used. 589 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, for me, I like to think of this like 590 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,080 Speaker 2: there are three different ways of approaching this, and oftimes 591 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 2: there are people are like, oh my god, isn't this 592 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 2: going to be awkward? First, so just to say, I 593 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 2: promise it's not. And the more you do it, the 594 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 2: more you realize, like, oh, this is actually great. It's 595 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,440 Speaker 2: also helpful for me to imagine myself being in the 596 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,839 Speaker 2: other person's shoes. So if I imagine, like, oh, if 597 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 2: I received this email, wouldn't I be happy to get it? 598 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 2: And the answer is almost always yes. So I find 599 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,919 Speaker 2: that piece first helpful. So imagine now that you've gotten 600 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,359 Speaker 2: over the awkwardness. I always find it helpful that they right. 601 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 2: Are there three different ways that I can do this 602 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 2: that I know will help increase social connection and also 603 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,360 Speaker 2: just make for a positive interaction. The first is simply 604 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:15,360 Speaker 2: to thank someone. We know that gratitude is extremely powerful 605 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 2: as a source of connection. So I may think of 606 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:19,880 Speaker 2: is there someone who was a mentor like this is 607 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 2: who comes to mind right now? Is there a mentor 608 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,319 Speaker 2: or someone who gave me a piece of advice a 609 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 2: couple of years ago, or someone when I was little, 610 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,440 Speaker 2: right they served as a role model, and just simply 611 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,239 Speaker 2: to reach out to them and thank them for what 612 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:36,759 Speaker 2: they've done. So that's one easy way that's always always positive. 613 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,440 Speaker 2: I mean, these are all always positive, but it's just 614 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:44,360 Speaker 2: so nice. The second is to think about what I 615 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 2: can give. It can be as simple as hey, I 616 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 2: saw this article or I was listening to this podcast, 617 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 2: I thought you might like it. There are lots of 618 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,319 Speaker 2: things that we all have to give, particularly in this 619 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 2: moment when people are so starved for social connection. Just 620 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 2: saying like I'm thinking of you is in many ways 621 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 2: a gift. But there are lots and lots of things 622 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:05,759 Speaker 2: that we have to give if we just start to 623 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,319 Speaker 2: think a little bit broader. And then the final is 624 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:13,320 Speaker 2: we were discussing previously is just simply to ask for help, 625 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 2: which in many ways can be a gift of itself. 626 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 1: So do you find that most people are writing back 627 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:22,799 Speaker 1: to you when you reach out in that way? 628 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:27,799 Speaker 2: Almost always? I can't even think of a time when 629 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:29,239 Speaker 2: they have it. 630 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 1: Wow? And so you're doing this every week, Like, if 631 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,360 Speaker 1: you look back over the last year, what would you 632 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 1: say the impact has been for you of really sticking 633 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:41,800 Speaker 1: to this weekly ritual. 634 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,719 Speaker 2: So, I mean, particularly during the past year, it's been 635 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 2: a lifesaver in the sense that it has allowed me 636 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 2: to feel connected during moments when I don't feel is 637 00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:00,239 Speaker 2: connected as I possibly could be. My husband also does this, 638 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 2: and it's really a nudge about doing it, and he 639 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 2: found he wasn't looking for a job, but he ended 640 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,360 Speaker 2: up getting the job he had always wanted, working exactly 641 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 2: with the people he wanted to work with, which was 642 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:16,239 Speaker 2: a game changer for our family. And I mean, it's 643 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:20,680 Speaker 2: just it makes me feel like a deeper sense of 644 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,160 Speaker 2: connection to my community. And I think there's no greater 645 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:23,759 Speaker 2: gift than that. 646 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:29,279 Speaker 1: I love it. Are there any other habits or rituals 647 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:34,320 Speaker 1: that you've tried to help maintain a healthy network. 648 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:41,400 Speaker 2: The biggest thing for me is also just realizing in 649 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 2: any given moment, so I tend towards I tend towards 650 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 2: being thinking, I'm really socially awkward, which makes me not 651 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 2: want to engage with other people. And we know that 652 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 2: this is common, right, So most people think that they're 653 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 2: better than average at most things, So they think they're 654 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,800 Speaker 2: smarter than average, or they are better drive an average, 655 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 2: But when it comes to social interaction, we know that 656 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 2: we consistently underestimate how much people like us. So there's 657 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,440 Speaker 2: great research by Erica boothby showing this, and for me, 658 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,279 Speaker 2: one of the things that a practice't I wouldn't callut 659 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:15,439 Speaker 2: a ritual, but a practice that I try to keep 660 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:19,279 Speaker 2: in mind is that I'm far underestimating how much the 661 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 2: other person truly wants to connect. And by reframing that 662 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,840 Speaker 2: and focusing on like, we as humans all really deeply 663 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,800 Speaker 2: want to connect and we all really want social interaction 664 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 2: to go smoothly, And by reframing that, it's made it 665 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 2: far more easier to navigate the everyday social interactions than 666 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:39,760 Speaker 2: it was before. 667 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,400 Speaker 1: Now Marissa. My final question for you, For people that 668 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,480 Speaker 1: want to connect with you in some way and get 669 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,439 Speaker 1: the hands on social chemistry, what is the best way 670 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:50,279 Speaker 1: for people to do that. 671 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:52,839 Speaker 2: You can learn more about me and my work at 672 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 2: Marissa King dot com and I'd love to connect with 673 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:56,240 Speaker 2: you on LinkedIn. 674 00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 1: Of course, whether you know them or not exactly. Oh, 675 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:02,560 Speaker 1: thank you so much for your time, Marissa. It has 676 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:04,239 Speaker 1: been absolutely fascinating. 677 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:06,480 Speaker 2: It was a pleasure. Thanks for talking with me. 678 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 1: Hello there, That is it for today's show. If you 679 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:14,200 Speaker 1: enjoyed today's episode, why not share it with someone else 680 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 1: that you think would benefit and maybe get some useful 681 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:19,960 Speaker 1: tips to improve the way that they work. How I 682 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 1: Work is produced by Inventing with production support from dead 683 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: Set Studios. And thank you to Martin Nimba who does 684 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:29,280 Speaker 1: the audio mix for every show and makes everything sound 685 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 1: so much better than it would have otherwise. See you 686 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 1: next time.