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Speaker 1: This is the Happy Families podcast with doctor Justin Coilson,

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Speaker 1: where Luke and Susie and this is the podcast for

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Speaker 1: the time poor parent who just wants answers now.

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Speaker 2: And Sue's a very important question I want to explore

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Speaker 2: with you, like what do you want to be when

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Speaker 2: you grow up? Soon? I'm not Yeah, we are going

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Speaker 2: to explore this whole concept is as a kid, we

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Speaker 2: always had dreams and aspirations. But I think in a

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Speaker 2: sense it's so much more freeing as a kid to

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Speaker 2: have dreams for our life than it is as a

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Speaker 2: parent to have dreams for our kids, because it's very,

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Speaker 2: very uncomfortable when we actually don't have as much control

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Speaker 2: when it's not our lives.

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Speaker 1: Well, this is exactly the thing, isn't it. Doctor Justin

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Speaker 1: Coilson from Happy Families dot Com.

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Speaker 3: That are you?

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Speaker 1: You had an interesting conversation recently about this.

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Speaker 3: Well, I catch a lot of taxis, you know.

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Speaker 4: I'm in and out of airports and heading off to

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Speaker 4: schools or organizations to run presentations about well being or

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Speaker 4: about relationships and family parenting. And I'm sitting in a

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Speaker 4: cab and I'm heading somewhere in the cabby.

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Speaker 3: I had emails to deal with.

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Speaker 4: I had phone calls to make, but the Cabby caught

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Speaker 4: me at a vulnerable moment.

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Speaker 3: I guess and he says, so what do you do?

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Speaker 4: And he was he was his name was I think

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Speaker 4: it was Sonny and he was from India. And I said, well,

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Speaker 4: I write books about parenting and I give talks about

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Speaker 4: being happy and about being a parent. And he said,

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Speaker 4: I've got a question for you. And I'm like, am

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Speaker 4: I going to get this cab ride for free?

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Speaker 3: If advice?

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Speaker 4: He said no, And I said, okay, we'll give me

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Speaker 4: the question anyway. And and he said, I I want

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Speaker 4: my son to be a pilot. How do I make

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Speaker 4: sure that my son becomes a pilot?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: No, that's that's that's we've all felt it. I'm not

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Speaker 2: sure we've all asked the question out loud, as we

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Speaker 2: have our goal and our dreams for what they want.

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Speaker 1: What our children to become.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and I kind of I did what you did, says.

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Speaker 4: I was like, oh, I don't want to tell him

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Speaker 4: how to make his son a pilot. I mean, psychology

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Speaker 4: has shown us that there are ways that we can

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Speaker 4: make people do just about anything. But I don't think

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Speaker 4: that that's necessarily healthy, and so I started this conversation

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Speaker 4: with him around that idea. He was well meaning, he

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Speaker 4: obviously really loved his son and he just wanted the

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Speaker 4: best for him, but the question made me feel so uncomfortable.

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Speaker 4: I said, well, you know what if your son doesn't

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Speaker 4: want to become a pilot. And he didn't really respond

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Speaker 4: to that. He was like, oh, no, no, no, he'll become

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Speaker 4: a pilot.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 4: I said, well, are you Are you just being controlling?

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Speaker 4: Have you got unrealistic expectations? I wasn't quite that blunt,

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Speaker 4: but that was kind of where my question was going.

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Speaker 4: I said, what happens if he fails? How will he

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Speaker 4: feel about himself because of the expectation that you've put

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Speaker 4: on him? And I'm thinking about all these questions and

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Speaker 4: I'm talking to him about it. But what this pilot was,

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Speaker 4: what this pilot, sorry, what this taxi driver was really

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Speaker 4: saying is I'm a taxi driver and I don't feel

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Speaker 4: good about myself because I'm a taxi driver and I

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Speaker 4: want so much more for my son. His motivation was

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Speaker 4: beautiful and wonderful, and as we talked about that, I

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Speaker 4: asked him a couple of questions, I said, yeah, what

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Speaker 4: does success in life really mean? My comment was, my

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Speaker 4: sense is that who your son becomes will be far

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Speaker 4: more important than what your son becomes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I was thinking about that in the context

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Speaker 1: of if I raise my children and they are honest

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Speaker 1: and they have integrity, and they're kind and they're loving,

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Speaker 1: and they're strong and their leaders, I kind of probably

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Speaker 1: don't really care if they're a cleaner or a doctor.

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Speaker 1: If if at the end of the day, I know

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Speaker 1: that they're the kind of people who are still going

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Speaker 1: to answer my vone calls because because they're.

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Speaker 2: Answering mum's vocals.

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Speaker 4: No, but what you're saying is essentially what I said

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Speaker 4: to this Cabby. I said, we're into raising character, not

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Speaker 4: pilots or doctors or lawyers or whatever it might be.

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Speaker 4: But he was still really skeptical. I mean, you've just

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Speaker 4: enunciated perfectly what I was getting at, but he wasn't

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Speaker 4: getting it. So I shifted perspectives and I spun it

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Speaker 4: like this. I said to him, tell me about your dad.

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Speaker 3: What does he do?

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Speaker 1: Oh good question?

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Speaker 4: And he went really quiet, and he explained that his

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Speaker 4: dad was very, very poor, still living in India, and

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Speaker 4: he was basically living on this subsistence farming land where

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Speaker 4: he just took what he could from the land and

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Speaker 4: he was barely getting by. And I said, well, do

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Speaker 4: you value him ls because he doesn't have any money,

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Speaker 4: and he was wonderful.

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Speaker 3: He said, of course not, he's my father.

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Speaker 4: And I said, right, do you think that your son

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Speaker 4: is going to look down on you because.

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Speaker 3: You're a taxi driver?

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Speaker 4: And he was really quiet, and so I explored a

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Speaker 4: little bit more and I said, you know, my dad

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Speaker 4: is a furniture removalist. When I was a kid, my

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Speaker 4: mum and dad had a furniture store and they had

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Speaker 4: a truck sitting there and so Dad started moving people,

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Speaker 4: moving house.

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Speaker 3: His body won't do it anymore.

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Speaker 4: But I said, I don't look at my dad because

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Speaker 4: I've got a PhD in psychology and say, I'm so

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Speaker 4: glad I turned that way. But I'd love to be

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Speaker 4: half the man my dad is. And he's a furniture

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Speaker 4: move it's because it's about character. It's not about who

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Speaker 4: you are and what you become. And so I talked

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Speaker 4: to him about what kind of dad he wanted to be,

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Speaker 4: and again we went back to this conversation about character

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Speaker 4: versus possessions. I said, you've bought the lie that society

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Speaker 4: keeps on feeding us, that it's all about what you've

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Speaker 4: got rather than who you are.

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Speaker 3: I said, it's not the way it should be.

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Speaker 4: So we talked a lot more about character, and you know,

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Speaker 4: at the end of the conversation, I said to him,

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Speaker 4: how are you going to feel about your son if

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Speaker 4: he doesn't become a pilot? Are you going to see

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Speaker 4: him as a failure? Are you going to see him

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Speaker 4: as unsuccessful? And he was great, He said, no, of

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Speaker 4: course not. He's my son. And I said, but how

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Speaker 4: will he feel about himself if he doesn't get to

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Speaker 4: where you're pushing him to go? And he went really

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Speaker 4: quiet and acknowledged that maybe his son might have low

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Speaker 4: self esteem, might feel bad about himself, might see himself

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Speaker 4: as a failure. And I said, so, why do you

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Speaker 4: want him to be a pilot so badly? He said,

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Speaker 4: I don't know. I just really want him to be one.

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Speaker 4: I said, well, how old is your son? He said,

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Speaker 4: he's just turned two months.

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Speaker 2: And we laugh. I'm we've all struggled with this little

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Speaker 2: thing inside of our head of what we want for

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Speaker 2: our kids, and we Ultimately, we want better for them.

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Speaker 2: Even if we had had it good, we still want

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Speaker 2: better for them.

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Speaker 3: But we have better, more money, prestige. That's the lie

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Speaker 3: that we keep buying, and that's the purpose of that.

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Speaker 4: I mean a there's a true story about a conversation

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Speaker 4: I have with the kaby who bought the lie. And

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Speaker 4: I think that you've just I'm not saying that you've

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Speaker 4: bought the lie, but you've said I want better for

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Speaker 4: my kids.

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Speaker 3: And what does that mean exactly?

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Speaker 2: My dad? I lost him, what is it eighteen months

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Speaker 2: ago or so? And I love him. I love him dearly.

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Speaker 2: We are completely opposite people. Were The only thing we

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Speaker 2: had in common in life as I grew up was

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Speaker 2: we liked cricket. Outside of that, nothing like, completely different personalities.

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Speaker 2: And he got it so right and so wrong on

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Speaker 2: this issue that we're talking about the character versus the

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Speaker 2: what you do, who you are versus what you are.

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Speaker 2: He so desperately wanted me to have a grasp of

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Speaker 2: a strong work ethic and being able to serve people

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Speaker 2: and be a wonderful worker. But the only expression of

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Speaker 2: that he had in his life, where he was a farmer,

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Speaker 2: he was a truck driver, He was a physical labor

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Speaker 2: guy and I am anything, but I hate mowing the lawn.

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Speaker 2: I hate any physical work, and he My most vivid

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Speaker 2: memory was at fifteen. Dad was at the end of

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Speaker 2: his tether and he said, you were just so lazy.

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Speaker 2: You no son of mine. And it was this mistake

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Speaker 2: that he made and we've talked it through. We got

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Speaker 2: resolution from that, but that was a painful memory for

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Speaker 2: me because he was so desperate trying to teach me

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Speaker 2: a work ethic. He didn't realize he had. He was

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Speaker 2: just he didn't realize where my work ethic applied. When

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Speaker 2: I hit the workforce, when I started to be who

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Speaker 2: I was, that he saw it come out and he

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Speaker 2: suddenly realized that he was just so busy seeing what

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Speaker 2: he thought it should have looked like he forgot to

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Speaker 2: see me. And once he started to learn who I was,

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Speaker 2: then we had some different conversations around that.

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Speaker 4: It's funny that you've picked the age of fifteen as well,

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Speaker 4: and I think that's really beautiful what you've shared. Parents

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Speaker 4: will usually come to me when their kids are about

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Speaker 4: fifteen and they'll say, my child is so unmotivated. They've

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Speaker 4: given up on school. They're going nowhere. They're doing nothing.

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Speaker 3: How do I And it's that whole I'm worried about them.

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Speaker 4: I want them to be okay, and I think that

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Speaker 4: there's a developmental aspect here where some kids breeze through it.

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Speaker 3: But a lot of kids are like, what's the point

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Speaker 3: of all of this school?

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Speaker 4: And I don't know who I am and I don't

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Speaker 4: know what I want to be. Remarkably, most of them,

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Speaker 4: once they get into their twenties, suddenly learn how to work.

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Speaker 4: They learn how to look to the future, they learn

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Speaker 4: how to set goals and plan.

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Speaker 3: Why do they do that?

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Speaker 4: Because we've set a good example for them. Shakespeare once said,

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Speaker 4: I would that there were no age between sixteen and

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Speaker 4: three and twenty, or that youth would sleep out the rest.

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Speaker 4: But there is nothing in the between but getting wenches

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Speaker 4: with child, wronging the ancient tree, stealing and fighting. Now,

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Speaker 4: obviously we don't get wenches with child. We've moved on

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Speaker 4: from that. The behavior may still exist.

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Speaker 3: But there's this thing called contraception.

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Speaker 4: Now, and that's from a Winter's Tale. But his argument

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Speaker 4: is between about sixteen and twenty three, you know that

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Speaker 4: late adolescence stage parents lose all control and the kids

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Speaker 4: will do whatever they will do. And there are some

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Speaker 4: parenting experts who will say it's my way on the highway,

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Speaker 4: and I've watched too many kids say fine, it's the highway,

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Speaker 4: and they're even more likely to make bad decisions once

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Speaker 4: they're out on the highway than when they're within the

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Speaker 4: walls of our own home. We've got to be able

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Speaker 4: to just accept that they've got to work out who

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Speaker 4: they are. And the more we try to push them

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Speaker 4: to be a pilot, or push them to be a

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Speaker 4: hard worker on the land and mow their own lawn

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Speaker 4: or whatever whatever it might be, the more we actually

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Speaker 4: up to the relationship and alienate ourselves from them and

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Speaker 4: alienate them from our influence. If we can be kind, compassionate,

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Speaker 4: understanding and help them to become who they really are,

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Speaker 4: risk we keep that relationship strong, and as they get

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Speaker 4: old or as they develop, as they mature, that will

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Speaker 4: come back to be a wonderful, wonderful gift in their

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Speaker 4: life and our lives and our.

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Speaker 2: Because this is the important thing. My dad, this guy

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Speaker 2: who wanted his son to be a pilot, these are

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Speaker 2: expressions of we've got a conclusion, and as long as

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Speaker 2: we have that conclusion, we miss them actually being the

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Speaker 2: best that they can be because our conclusion can't fathom

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Speaker 2: it usually limits what they're actually going to be able

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Speaker 2: to do with their life. So the character and the

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Speaker 2: development the steps to to give him everything he needs

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Speaker 2: to potentially be able to become a pilot is a

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Speaker 2: different story to forcing him to be a pilot.

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Speaker 4: Super Yeah, And we can set things up so that

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Speaker 4: he might actually have that desire, and if he wants

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Speaker 4: to be one, we can facilitate that. But if he doesn't,

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Speaker 4: if he wants to be a drama queen king, if

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Speaker 4: he wants to be a drama student and be an

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Speaker 4: actor on Broadway, and we just want him to be

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Speaker 4: I'm sorry, Dead poets Society.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, dead poets Society.

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Speaker 4: Here's this kid who just wants to be on the

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Speaker 4: stage and his father is dead set against it because

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Speaker 4: he's got these aspirations for him. And the tragedy of that,

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Speaker 4: of course, is in that fictional story the boy took

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Speaker 4: his life, but it happens in real life too. Let

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Speaker 4: them be who they are, set them up to be successful,

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Speaker 4: and stop worrying about are they going to be better

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Speaker 4: than me? Financially? Because it's a lie. So long as

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Speaker 4: they've got enough to get by, so long as they

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Speaker 4: can feed themselves, put a roof over their head, they'll

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Speaker 4: be Okay. Let them do what matters most of them.

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Speaker 1: Beautiful. Such a good discussion focusing on who we want

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Speaker 1: our children to be, not what we want them to be.

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Speaker 1: I just love that so much.

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Speaker 2: We're trying to work out what we're going to force

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Speaker 2: our three kids to be when they.

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Speaker 1: Runs a hairdresser because I've.

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Speaker 3: Got six daughters, but I really want a mechanic.

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Speaker 4: I really really want somebody who knows how to build

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Speaker 4: extensions on how what do you call that?

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Speaker 2: Buildings coming very handy, That's exactly I need someone to

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Speaker 2: help me with my I t I've got I've got

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Speaker 2: a whole lot of things to help around the radio studio.

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Speaker 2: It'd be great.

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Speaker 3: You probably need more children, yeah, justin.

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Speaker 2: Sentences, he's a man from a man from Happy families

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Speaker 2: dot com dot you. It's what he said.

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Speaker 1: Well, there are loads of resources on how to get

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Speaker 1: this parenting thing right at the website happy families dot

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Speaker 1: com dot au. But if you are interested in having

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Speaker 1: doctor Justin Coulson come and speak at your school or

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Speaker 1: community group or organization. You can find out more at

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Speaker 1: Justin Coulson dot com