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Speaker 1: And then I think the best thing you can do

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Speaker 1: is to have a script that you follow in those moments.

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Speaker 1: If you find that it's a regular thing for you

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Speaker 1: that you hit these points where your default would be

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Speaker 1: to check the phone, you could say every time I

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Speaker 1: hit one of those moments, I'm going to go for

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Speaker 1: a two minute walk.

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Speaker 2: And I often do this.

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Speaker 1: I'll walk around my office floor in my office building

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Speaker 1: at home, I'll just take a stroll outside, or I'll

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Speaker 1: walk upstairs from my officeit which is in the basement.

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Speaker 1: That's a sort of very natural resetting mechanism, and often

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Speaker 1: I find it only takes that long to sort of

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Speaker 1: walk for a minute or two to reset things, and

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Speaker 1: I sit down and things sort of pick up again.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics

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Speaker 3: used by leading innovators to get so much out of

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Speaker 3: their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imba. I'm an

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Speaker 3: organizational psychologist, the founder of innovation consultancy Inventium, and I'm

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Speaker 3: obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work date.

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Speaker 4: Now, before we get into so today's interview.

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Speaker 3: I wanted to do a shout out to all the

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Speaker 3: lovely people that have been leaving reviews for How I Work.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much. I read every single one of them.

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Speaker 3: I thought i'd do a shout out to one of

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Speaker 3: the people that has been leaving reviews over the last

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Speaker 3: few weeks, and that is Sampang Fan.

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Speaker 4: Sampang Fan writes, thanks, Amantha.

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Speaker 3: This is a brilliant podcast for anyone who wants to

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Speaker 3: get more done at work. I binge on these episodes

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Speaker 3: when I'm meant to be working. Okay, well that's not

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Speaker 3: quite the intent, but you know, that's kind of fun

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Speaker 3: as well. And hopefully when you do get back to working,

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Speaker 3: Sampang Fan, you're a bit more productive.

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Speaker 5: All right. Cool. So if you do like How I.

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Speaker 3: Work, I would love it if you read a review,

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Speaker 3: and I might read your review out on the Future show,

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Speaker 3: you know, if that's kind of appealing. So let's get

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Speaker 3: on to today's guest. Who is Adam Alta. Adam is

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Speaker 3: an Associate for of Marketing at New York University's Stern

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Speaker 3: School of Business. Adam is the New York Times best

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Speaker 3: selling author of two books, the first one Irresistible, which

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Speaker 3: considers why so many people today are addicted to so

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Speaker 3: many behaviors from incessants, smartphone and Internet used to video

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Speaker 3: game playing and online shopping, and drunk Tank Pink, which

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Speaker 3: investigates how hidden forces in the world around us shape

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Speaker 3: our thoughts, feelings, and behaviors. Adam has also written for

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Speaker 3: The New York Times, The New Yorker, The Washington Post,

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Speaker 3: Atlantic Wireds, Late Half Post, and Popular Science, among other publications. Now,

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Speaker 3: this interview actually came about because a listener of the

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Speaker 3: show also named Adam, wrote to me and said, Hey,

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Speaker 3: I've got this great guest in mind. His name is

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Speaker 3: Adam Oltat, which was a huge coincidence because literally at

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Speaker 3: that point in time, I was reading his book Irresistible

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Speaker 3: and loving it.

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Speaker 5: So that's how this came.

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Speaker 4: About, and I loved my chat with Adam.

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Speaker 3: We covered a whole lot of ground in this interview,

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Speaker 3: from mobile phone addiction and how Adam has dramatically reduced

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Speaker 3: the amount of time that he spends on his phone

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Speaker 3: through to Adam's you on kids and screens and the

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Speaker 3: choices that he's made for his own kids, who little

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Speaker 3: people aged almost two and three. So I think there's

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Speaker 3: some really practical, interesting research back stuff in this interview

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Speaker 3: and I hope you enjoy it.

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Speaker 4: And on that note, over to Adam to hear about

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Speaker 4: how he works.

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Speaker 5: Hello, Adam, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 2: Thanks very much for having me.

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Speaker 4: I want to start with your own mobile phone US.

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Speaker 3: And I remember when I was reading Irresistible, you talked

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Speaker 3: about how you actually measure how much time you were

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Speaker 3: spending on your mobile phone every day, and it surprised you.

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Speaker 3: Are you able to share what you thought it would

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Speaker 3: be and what it actually was.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So I spoke to a guy and he had

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Speaker 1: created one of the first apps that tracks folk usage

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Speaker 1: and what you're doing with your phone. And he told

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Speaker 1: me that most people massively underestimate how much time they

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Speaker 1: spend on their phones. And he said most people are

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Speaker 1: about fifty percent in their estimates of what they actually do.

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Speaker 1: So he said to me, why don't you tell me

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Speaker 1: what you think you're using and then install the app

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Speaker 1: and then see what happens over the course of a

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks and then we can talk again. So

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Speaker 1: I told him I thought I was at maybe maybe

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Speaker 1: an hour, maybe an hour and a half. And he said,

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Speaker 1: that's a pretty common guess. And he said, if that's true,

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Speaker 1: I'd be surprised. And so why don't you go away

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Speaker 1: and use the phone and use the app and see

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Speaker 1: what happens. And I looked at it after about a week,

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Speaker 1: and my average was between three and four hours, So

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Speaker 1: you know, massively more than I expected. And I called

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Speaker 1: him up and I told him this, and he said,

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Speaker 1: that's absolutely typical. That's usually what we find, and you'll

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Speaker 1: bang on the average. After looking at data from tens

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Speaker 1: of thousands of people, he found that the average was

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Speaker 1: between three or four three and four hours, and now

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Speaker 1: it's actually above four hours. That was the last time

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Speaker 1: I spoke to him, So I thought I used my

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Speaker 1: phone for an hour, actually using it between three and four.

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Speaker 3: And so now I guess I don't know if you've

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Speaker 3: taken your measurements. Now it's a lot easier to these days.

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Speaker 3: How much time would you spend on your phone on

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Speaker 3: an average day now?

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Speaker 2: So you know, it's funny.

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Speaker 1: I now live outside of New York City, and so

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Speaker 1: I have a very long commute. I travel when I

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Speaker 1: go to work about i'd say an hour and a

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Speaker 1: half each way. I don't do that every day. On

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Speaker 1: those days, I use my phone pretty extensively because it's

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Speaker 1: a sort of useful tool to have on the train.

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Speaker 1: So putting those days aside, I'm at around an hour

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Speaker 1: and a half to two hours, which I'm okay with.

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Speaker 1: On those days when I travel it can be five

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Speaker 1: hours or more. So that always strikes me as a

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Speaker 1: little bit alarming.

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Speaker 3: Let's take the non commute days. Then, what did you

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Speaker 3: change about your behavior? What do you do now that

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Speaker 3: is different to really remove yourself away from what can

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Speaker 3: be a really powerful addiction.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you've got to do a sort of order.

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Speaker 1: So the first step in the audit process is to

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Speaker 1: work how long you're spending on your phone. The second

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Speaker 1: thing is to work out why that might be. Then

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Speaker 1: the occasions in which you use it. And one of

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Speaker 1: the things I realized was that there was no period

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Speaker 1: in the day at all, and I'm talking about twenty

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Speaker 1: four hours in the day when I couldn't reach my

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Speaker 1: phone without moving my feet. In other words, even when

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Speaker 1: I was sleeping, the phone was by the bed, It's

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Speaker 1: either in my pocket or on the desk. It was

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Speaker 1: always absolutely accessible at all times. And I realized that

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of moments where as a sort

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Speaker 1: of default, I would reach over grab the phone and

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Speaker 1: then lose ten minutes. And if you add those ten

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Speaker 1: minute periods up over the course of a day. You

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Speaker 1: do that four or five, six times, you've lost an hour.

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Speaker 1: And so what I started to do is I started

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Speaker 1: to keep the default as the phone will be far

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Speaker 1: away from me, and it'll only be near me when

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Speaker 1: that's purposeful and that's mindful, when that's a sort of

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Speaker 1: chosen decision. And so this whole sort of idea is

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Speaker 1: known as behavioral architecture. It's this idea that just as

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Speaker 1: an architect might design a building or a city or

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Speaker 1: anything else, you are the architect of your own environment,

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Speaker 1: which then just how you behave and the things that

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Speaker 1: are furthest away from you have less of an impact

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Speaker 1: than the things that are close to you. And so

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Speaker 1: I found that just that one change, that mindfully moving

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Speaker 1: the phone far away from me, reduced my usage by

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Speaker 1: about thirty percent.

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Speaker 3: And so where was the phone sitting then, if it

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Speaker 3: was not with arms not within arms reach.

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Speaker 2: So I had two places.

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Speaker 1: So when I was home, I have a desk at home,

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Speaker 1: and I have a desk in my office in New

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Speaker 1: York City. At home, I always kept the phone in

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Speaker 1: a different room, a completely different room. So I put

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Speaker 1: it in a I have a drawer next to my bed,

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Speaker 1: and I put it in the drawer, and symbolically, I

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Speaker 1: also have another drawer that has a lock on it.

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Speaker 1: So when I want to, I really strongly wanted to

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Speaker 1: keep the phone far away, I'd lock the drawer and

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Speaker 1: so the phone would be out of reach and behind

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Speaker 1: a lock. When I'm in the office. I can't do that, obviously,

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Speaker 1: so I put it inside a filing cabinet, which also

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Speaker 1: has a lock, and I leave it for as long

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Speaker 1: as possible.

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Speaker 5: That is so funny.

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Speaker 3: You're the second guest in a matter of maybe a

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Speaker 3: month that has said that they locked their phone in

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Speaker 3: the drawer. So I was I was speaking to him Herrera,

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Speaker 3: who edits Smarter Living for the New York Times, and

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Speaker 3: he does the exact same thing. Where did you come

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Speaker 3: up with the idea of literally locking your phone away?

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Speaker 1: Well, it's partly symbolic. It recognizes just how hard it

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Speaker 1: is to stop using our phones. So for me it

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Speaker 1: was partly symbolic. But also when I'd started researching the topic,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to talk to people who are running addiction

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Speaker 1: treatment centers for people who couldn't stop using their phones.

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Speaker 1: And there was a woman that I tried to contact

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Speaker 1: at one of these centers, and she was impossible to

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Speaker 1: get hold of. And eventually, one day I called up

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Speaker 1: her office landline and she picked up, and I'd probably

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Speaker 1: tried twenty times before she picked up, and she said,

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Speaker 1: you're very lucky you reached me, because I purposely lose

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Speaker 1: my phone. I said, well, what does that involve? How

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Speaker 1: do you purposely lose something? And she said, well, there

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Speaker 1: are several draws around this workplace. It's actually a house

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Speaker 1: they have in the woods just near Seattle. She said,

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Speaker 1: there are several draws in this house that have locks.

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Speaker 1: And I will, without being thoughtful about it, just put

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Speaker 1: the phone in one of thes at the beginning of

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Speaker 1: the day, and I switch it up randomly from day

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Speaker 1: to day, but it's always behind a lock and key.

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Speaker 1: You know. The fact that she hadn't picked up her

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Speaker 1: phone twenty times suggested she was doing a pretty good

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Speaker 1: job of staying far away from the phone. And I

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Speaker 1: found that idea is so compelling that I wanted to

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Speaker 1: adopt that component of it. So I've always used the

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Speaker 1: lock and key where I could.

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Speaker 5: That's so cool.

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Speaker 3: And how about when you're out and about how do

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Speaker 3: you deal with the phone when you're not next to

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Speaker 3: a locked draw.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 1: I don't like being complete without completely without the phone,

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Speaker 1: partly because it's also a camera.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: This massive technological convergence means that the phone stands in

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Speaker 1: for much more than just a device, a smart device,

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Speaker 1: And so I turned it into a dumb phone by

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Speaker 1: putting it on airplane mode. I find that that's pretty effective,

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Speaker 1: especially because I've developed a habit with my wife, with

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Speaker 1: our family, we try to on weekends as far as possible,

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Speaker 1: between say nine and five, put our phones on airplane mode,

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Speaker 1: so we can use them as cameras. We can take

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Speaker 1: photos of our kids, we can film videos of our kids,

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Speaker 1: but we won't be interrupted by anything external. We turn

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Speaker 1: off our notifications and things like that, so physically it's

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Speaker 1: still present, it's with us. We could always turn it

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Speaker 1: on in an emergency if we needed it, but we

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Speaker 1: try our best not.

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Speaker 2: To do that. Oh.

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Speaker 3: I like that thing on flight mode for the whole day.

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Speaker 3: That's really cool. And I've heard you talk about stopping

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Speaker 3: cues and actually picking a regular time every day not

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Speaker 3: to be on your phone. Could you talk a bit

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Speaker 3: more about that and whether that's something that you still

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Speaker 3: incorporate into your life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So the stopping cue it's a really I think

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Speaker 1: useful idea. It's the idea that humans are like physical objects.

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Speaker 1: We keep doing the same thing until some force acts

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Speaker 1: on us to move us onto the next thing. And

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Speaker 1: in the twentieth century, if you think about how we

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Speaker 1: consume media and what we were doing with our time,

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Speaker 1: there were a lot of these stopping cues built in.

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Speaker 1: So if you were watching a TV show, you'd watch

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Speaker 1: say one episode a week, for an hour each week,

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Speaker 1: and at the end of an episode, you would be

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Speaker 1: forced because it would be another week till the next

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Speaker 1: episode arrived. You'd be forced to move on to the

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Speaker 1: next thing. You know, no one sat in a couch

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Speaker 1: on the couch for the next six plus days waiting

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Speaker 1: for the next episode to arrive. So you were naturally

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Speaker 1: shepherded onto the next activity. And that was a stopping cue.

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Speaker 1: And there were stopping ques in newspapers. You'd get to

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Speaker 1: the end of the paper, you'd have to wait for

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Speaker 1: the next paper the next day. You were reading a book,

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Speaker 1: you got to the end of a chapter, that was

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Speaker 1: a gentle suggestion that maybe you move on to something else.

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Speaker 1: And so we were pretty good at moving from one

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Speaker 1: activity to the next for a long time. In the

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Speaker 1: twenty first century, with the introduction of screen tech, the

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Speaker 1: kinds of screen tech that we spend so much time on. Today,

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Speaker 1: a lot of the programs are being designed such that

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Speaker 1: they are systematically removed of or their stopping ques is

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Speaker 1: systematically removed or eradicated. So the original version of Facebook,

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Speaker 1: for example, you had to click a button to show

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Speaker 1: more content, and you had to keep clicking that button.

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Speaker 1: That seems like a trivial thing to have to do,

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Speaker 1: but every time you click the button, you're sort of

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Speaker 1: making this decision to continue on. And so that in

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Speaker 1: itself having to make that decision is a stopping because

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Speaker 1: eventually you say, I've been clicking this button for a

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Speaker 1: long time, I should probably move on. But now everything's endless.

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Speaker 1: There's an infinite loop on pretty much any feed on

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Speaker 1: any social network. That's true of email as well. Email

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Speaker 1: is endless. There's one person has written about it, like

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Speaker 1: killing zombies at night and when you wake up in

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Speaker 1: the morning, they've.

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Speaker 5: Just oh, that's such a great way to describe this.

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Speaker 2: It is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there's no there's no way to get

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Speaker 1: rid of them. And so a lot of what we

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Speaker 1: do now doesn't have a stopping cue built into it.

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Speaker 1: So what you have to do is you have to

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Speaker 1: introduce your own external stopping queues, and that might be

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Speaker 1: looking at a particular time of the day as a

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Speaker 1: signal that it's time to turn off your phone. A

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Speaker 1: lot of people do this around dinner time. The nice

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Speaker 1: thing about making it around dinner time is that we

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Speaker 1: all eat dinner pretty much every day, and it doesn't

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Speaker 1: matter what context you're in. You can make that decision

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Speaker 1: that dinner time will be screen free time. And a

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Speaker 1: lot of people do that already. That's a nice default

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Speaker 1: that a lot of people adhere to, but I think

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Speaker 1: it's a great habit to cultivate and that idea that

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Speaker 1: the minute I sit down to dinner, that's my stopping cue.

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Speaker 1: That's where I take my phone and I put it

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Speaker 1: in another room, or I switch it on airplane mode,

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Speaker 1: or I do whatever it is that I need to

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Speaker 1: do to remove it from my experience of the world.

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Speaker 1: That seems to work pretty well. That's one thing that

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Speaker 1: I try to do when I eat meals. The weekend,

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Speaker 1: as I said, is another one. So when it's weekend time.

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Speaker 1: That's also the weekend from the phone, so you get

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Speaker 1: a bit of a rest from the phone there.

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Speaker 2: Different people have different approaches.

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Speaker 1: Some people say, I know that I go to bed

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Speaker 1: roughly the same time every night, and I know that

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Speaker 1: if I look at my phone within ninety minutes of bedtime,

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Speaker 1: I'm disrupting my brain's ability to produce melatonin, which makes

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Speaker 1: me sleepy. So as a result, I just don't use

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Speaker 1: my phone for ninety minutes before bed and in the

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Speaker 1: first couple of hours after waking up.

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Speaker 2: Something like that.

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Speaker 1: You know, everyone has their own approach, but each of

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Speaker 1: these is sort of a self imposed stopping queue that

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Speaker 1: overrides the absence of these queues in the way we

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Speaker 1: experience most of our phone content.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, definitely, definitely.

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Speaker 3: I know for me, I it must have been maybe

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Speaker 3: a year ago where I finally bought an analogue alarm

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Speaker 3: clock that just runs on a battery and plugs into

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Speaker 3: the walls.

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Speaker 5: I don't have to charge my phone in my room anymore.

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Speaker 3: I imagine that your bedside table set up probably looks

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Speaker 3: a bit similar.

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Speaker 2: It does.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's this really interesting trend in the business world.

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Speaker 1: It's known as retromania, and it's this technical trend for

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Speaker 1: people to start buying things that were out of date

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Speaker 1: a few years ago because they realized there are certain

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Speaker 1: properties of these out of date things that make them

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Speaker 1: superior in certain respects. And with the convergence we talked

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Speaker 1: about earlier, that everything is available on your phone, the

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Speaker 1: only way to get away from your phone is to

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Speaker 1: buy these standalone devices that stand in for the functions

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Speaker 1: that you need. And you're exactly right. Having a bedside

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Speaker 1: alarm clock, which seems like such a throwback today, is

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Speaker 1: the best way to do that. If you don't want

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Speaker 1: the phone in the room, you still need the alarm,

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Speaker 1: and so I do exactly the same thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: It reminds me of this campaign that it was crowdfunded,

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Speaker 3: and like with many things that you contribute to on Kickstarter,

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Speaker 3: it takes two you is, and sometimes much longer to

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Speaker 3: actually receive the thing that reminds me of this thing

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Speaker 3: called the light phone. I imagine you might have come

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Speaker 3: across the light phone. It's basically a dumb phone. So

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Speaker 3: it's a phone that I think it's quite small, but

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Speaker 3: it removes all the I guess apps that are addictive

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Speaker 3: in nature. And it just has all the utility functions

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Speaker 3: that a phone has. So I think I ordered one

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Speaker 3: about two years ago, still hasn't arrived, but I'm looking

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Speaker 3: forward to that because I think that's sort of along

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Speaker 3: the same kind of lines as what you're talking about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the creators of the light phone sent me one

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Speaker 1: of their prototypes probably three years ago now, and it's great.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it is exactly what my Nokia fifty one

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Speaker 1: to ten was, no like nineteen ninety nine or whatever

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Speaker 1: it was. So it's a much smaller, much more effective

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Speaker 1: way of using a dumb phone. But it's very very effective,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's a great idea and there's certainly

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Speaker 1: a market for it now. I think it's a smart

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Speaker 1: way to go if you're going to try to create

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Speaker 1: products that the deal this issue.

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Speaker 3: I want to talk about email and social media and

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Speaker 3: your approach to managing that. And let's talk about email first,

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Speaker 3: because certainly I was saying to you before we started recording,

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Speaker 3: I've actually really appreciated that you've been great to communicate

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Speaker 3: with on email. You're actually quite quite responsive. It does

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Speaker 3: help that we're in different time zones. You're in New

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Speaker 3: York and I'm in Melbourne. But what is your approach

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Speaker 3: to managing your inbox? What are the different tactics that

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Speaker 3: you're using to perhaps not let it be this kind

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Speaker 3: of addictive force and ruin all good work that can happen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it does that.

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Speaker 1: It's really hard to prevent that from happening if you

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Speaker 1: are constantly tethered to email. And so when I speak

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Speaker 1: to companies in the US in particular, but companies more broadly,

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Speaker 1: I always talk about this approach known as the zmail

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Speaker 1: approach or zzz mail, and the basic idea is that

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Speaker 1: email is batched much more than it naturally is. So

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Speaker 1: the way emails normally work as they trick in at

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Speaker 1: all hours of the day and then if you have

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Speaker 1: some sort of notification, some sort of push notification or

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Speaker 1: something like that, you'll know that they've arrived, and that'll

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Speaker 1: continue on throughout the day, all through all twenty four hours.

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Speaker 1: And that's obviously very disruptive. So this email approach, first

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Speaker 1: of all, there are two real limbs to it. The

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Speaker 1: first one is you don't get email between nine pm

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Speaker 1: and six am, And what that basically means is that

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Speaker 1: when you wake up in the morning, your inbox hasn't

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Speaker 1: suddenly grown. That zombie problem we talked about earlier hasn't

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Speaker 1: really with you. And that's really a nice thing that

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Speaker 1: you can wake up and there aren't tons of emails

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Speaker 1: sitting in the inbox waiting for you. The second and

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Speaker 1: I think more important thing, though, is, and some companies

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Speaker 1: are starting to do this as well, is to do batching,

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Speaker 1: where you check your email you pick up certain number

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Speaker 1: of times a day. It's partly about balancing being able

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Speaker 1: to work with your anxiety about not checking email often enough.

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Speaker 1: And so you either say I will check my email

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Speaker 1: at nine am, noon, and four pm, which was what

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Speaker 1: a lot of people do, or you could you could

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Speaker 1: do it twice a day. You could do nine am

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Speaker 1: and four pm. And then I'll devote a certain amount

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Speaker 1: of time to managing and monitoring and dealing with as

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Speaker 1: many of those emails as I can, and then after

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Speaker 1: that period, I'll just leave it till the next period.

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Speaker 1: And so it's a sort of very mindful way of

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Speaker 1: saying I will devote say an hour a day to

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Speaker 1: email or an hour and a half a day to email,

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Speaker 1: and it'll be at very specific times. And the reason,

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Speaker 1: the main reason to do that is the big chunks

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Speaker 1: of time between those blocks. Say you check email at

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Speaker 1: nine and noon, from nine thirty to twelve, that is

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Speaker 1: a two and a half hour period where you whatever

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Speaker 1: it is that you're doing, if you're writing, if you're reading,

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Speaker 1: if you're thinking, if you're whatever you may be doing,

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Speaker 1: that is an unbroken period of time, which is not

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Speaker 1: something that exists if you let email intrude at all

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Speaker 1: hours of the day. And so that's really what I

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Speaker 1: try to do, and I'm much stricter about it when

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Speaker 1: I'm in the writing phase, which I'm about to enter now.

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Speaker 1: When I do that, I try to go for the

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Speaker 1: nine am and four pm email checks. And then that

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Speaker 1: means that between say nine forty five and four, it's

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Speaker 1: just me the screen in with nothing else on it

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Speaker 1: except what I'm writing.

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Speaker 3: And what do you do when you reach a stack point?

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Speaker 3: Because I feel like when people reach a stuck point,

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Speaker 3: and I can certainly relate to this in my own work,

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Speaker 3: particularly when I'm doing writing, it's just so tempting to

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Speaker 3: do the just check, And because this kind of is

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Speaker 3: a lot of what I write about, I have worked

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Speaker 3: out ways to resist that temptation. But for you, how

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Speaker 3: like what happens when you reach that stuck point, and

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Speaker 3: then the natural thing is that you do a just

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Speaker 3: check of something to kind of give you that quick

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Speaker 3: dopamine hit, Like how do you stay away from those

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Speaker 3: temptations when you're working.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a fascinating idea, this stuck point, because it's

439
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Speaker 1: not something that existed in the same way, say fifteen

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00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:45,520
Speaker 1: or twenty years ago, this idea that you have a

441
00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:47,600
Speaker 1: stuck point, your natural default is to go and check

442
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:49,719
Speaker 1: a phone or the email account or whatever it may be.

443
00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:51,359
Speaker 1: That's one of the reasons, by the way, why I

444
00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:54,680
Speaker 1: put my phone behind usually a lock and key, because

445
00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,320
Speaker 1: what that does then is it adds this extra level

446
00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,879
Speaker 1: of this extra barrier between me and the phone, so

447
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:02,720
Speaker 1: that at those stuck points, I have to be very

448
00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,439
Speaker 1: deliberate about going to get the phone that's not just

449
00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:07,119
Speaker 1: going to sort of pop into my hand because it

450
00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,320
Speaker 1: happens to be on the desk next to me. So I,

451
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:12,560
Speaker 1: you know, I close all all the programs as much

452
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,200
Speaker 1: as possible. I make them as inaccessible as possible, both

453
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,040
Speaker 1: on the screen if I'm writing, or on the phone,

454
00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:19,600
Speaker 1: you know, on the phone, I'll bury the email programs

455
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:21,840
Speaker 1: as deep into the phone as I can, so it's

456
00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:24,000
Speaker 1: not just sitting there. I'm not just inspired to check it.

457
00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:25,959
Speaker 1: And then I think the best thing you can do

458
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,520
Speaker 1: is to have a script that you follow in those moments.

459
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:31,280
Speaker 1: If you find that it's a regular thing for you

460
00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:33,760
Speaker 1: that you hit these points where your default would be

461
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,960
Speaker 1: to check the phone, you could say every time I

462
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,040
Speaker 1: hit one of those moments, I'm going to go for

463
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:40,359
Speaker 1: a two minute walk.

464
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:41,639
Speaker 2: And I often do this.

465
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:45,120
Speaker 1: I'll walk around my office floor in my office building

466
00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:47,840
Speaker 1: at home, I'll just take a stroll outside, or I'll

467
00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,720
Speaker 1: walk upstairs from my officeit which is in the basement.

468
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,800
Speaker 1: That's a sort of very natural resetting mechanism, and often

469
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,560
Speaker 1: I find it only takes that long to sort of

470
00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:00,680
Speaker 1: walk for a minute or two to reset things, and

471
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:02,880
Speaker 1: I sit down and things sort of pick up again,

472
00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,160
Speaker 1: And that tends to be pretty effective for me. Other

473
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,639
Speaker 1: people have other scripts. It really just depends what you

474
00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:10,400
Speaker 1: do or what you like to do, what you find

475
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,679
Speaker 1: is productive for you. I find walking incredibly helpful. I

476
00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:17,760
Speaker 1: have standing desks and treadmill desks in my office, and

477
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,040
Speaker 1: so a quick walk on the treadmill as I'm reading

478
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:21,640
Speaker 1: something is usually very effective.

479
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:23,080
Speaker 5: That's cool.

480
00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:25,760
Speaker 3: I like that just just walking for a couple of minutes.

481
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,199
Speaker 3: It's so simple, but it can be so effective. Are

482
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:33,040
Speaker 3: there any other scripts that you follow when you're hitting

483
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:34,320
Speaker 3: that stuck point?

484
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:37,200
Speaker 1: There are certain things that I wish I had more

485
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,639
Speaker 1: time to do. So one of the things that happens

486
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,679
Speaker 1: if you follow academic literature. So I'm a researcher and

487
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:44,920
Speaker 1: I do a few other things as well, but there's

488
00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,199
Speaker 1: always so much research coming out, and I wish I

489
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,440
Speaker 1: had the time to sit and comb through all the papers.

490
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,439
Speaker 1: So what happens is I get table of contents emailed

491
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:54,400
Speaker 1: to me all the time, and I never have time

492
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,760
Speaker 1: to go through them. So I batch them, and in

493
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,480
Speaker 1: those moments when I'm really stuck, I'll devote maybe an

494
00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,760
Speaker 1: hour to going through those tables of contents, reading the

495
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:04,960
Speaker 1: papers that really stick out and that seem really interesting.

496
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:07,760
Speaker 1: And so I'm turning that period of being stuck into

497
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,719
Speaker 1: something that's much much more useful that I otherwise wouldn't

498
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,560
Speaker 1: have time to do. So I think it's the best

499
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,240
Speaker 1: way to think of these periods for me is you know,

500
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 1: there are primary activities that I have to absolutely do.

501
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 1: They're really important to my productivity in the short term,

502
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 1: the long term things like writing. If I'm writing a piece,

503
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,760
Speaker 1: I have to cobble together a certain number of words,

504
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:29,880
Speaker 1: they have to be of high quality. But then they're

505
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,600
Speaker 1: also long term I guess type two or second second

506
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 1: order goals like being able to say that I'm up

507
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,560
Speaker 1: to date on whatever literature is important to me. And

508
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:42,160
Speaker 1: so those are the kinds of things, Those secondary, long term,

509
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:44,840
Speaker 1: backburner kinds of things. Those are the things that I

510
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,080
Speaker 1: think should be part of that script. So whenever I

511
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:48,960
Speaker 1: hit the wall on the primary stuff, I can turn

512
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,640
Speaker 1: to the secondary stuff and it's still useful time spent

513
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,120
Speaker 1: wisely rather than kind of squandered.

514
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,120
Speaker 5: And how do you go about thinking about goals?

515
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:02,840
Speaker 3: Like do you have any annual, quarterly, weekly kind of

516
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,919
Speaker 3: rituals or checkpoints like where you're thinking about what are

517
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 3: your goals so that you can stay track and stay

518
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 3: focused on what does matter to you.

519
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 1: You know, I've thought a lot about goal setting and

520
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,040
Speaker 1: about the nature of goals, and I've written a bit

521
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,639
Speaker 1: about it as well. I think the concept of the

522
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 1: goal is useful because it obviously sets a signpost for you.

523
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:26,800
Speaker 1: It tells you in which direction to point your efforts

524
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 1: and you know your desires and whatever resources you have,

525
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 1: and so that's very useful. You need to know at

526
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 1: least that much in order to sort of function in

527
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,639
Speaker 1: the world. I think there's an element of goal setting

528
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 1: that's a little bit broken for me, and it's inherently broken,

529
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 1: and it's this idea that a goal basically means that

530
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 1: until you reach the goal state, you're inherently failing. You're

531
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,680
Speaker 1: in a failure state, and until you reach the goal state,

532
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,439
Speaker 1: you're still failing, failing, failing, failing until you reach the

533
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 1: goal and then you succeed. But the way humans work,

534
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 1: we tend to escalate whenever we achieve a goal. We

535
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 1: don't really rest on our laurels. We don't really get

536
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:00,960
Speaker 1: much joy from achieving a goal. This is true about

537
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 1: small goals and big goals, and so goal setting, where

538
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 1: you were in a failure state, then you reach success,

539
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 1: you don't get that much joy.

540
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 2: You set a new goal.

541
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 1: This sort of iterative process of goal setting failure state success,

542
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 1: failure state success, I think it's not all that fulfilling.

543
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 1: It's useful in a very grand sense to know what

544
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 1: you want, what you want to achieve, and so I

545
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:22,439
Speaker 1: sort of try to sit down for a couple of

546
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 1: hours a month and really think about in which direction

547
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:30,439
Speaker 1: I'm aiming whatever my time, my resources, my efforts. But

548
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:32,920
Speaker 1: I try not to set goals. The alternative to goals

549
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,159
Speaker 1: that I really like. This is something that Scott Adams

550
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:39,880
Speaker 1: described is notice systems instead of goals, and a system

551
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 1: basically says that instead of saying, for example, my goal

552
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: is I want to write a hundred thousand words, let's

553
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,880
Speaker 1: say that's your goal. Instead of doing that, you reframe

554
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:49,920
Speaker 1: it and say, my system is that every morning, for

555
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 1: an hour, I'm going to write and I'm going to

556
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,679
Speaker 1: write five hundred words, and obviously eventually that's going to

557
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 1: amount to one hundred thousand words.

558
00:24:58,200 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 2: But you don't think of it that way. You think

559
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 2: of it as a system.

560
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 1: This is my system for achieving that end state, and

561
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 1: so that each day you're reinforcing yourself with essentially being

562
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 1: able to achieve something and fulfilling what you set for

563
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 1: yourself with that system. And so I'll do that sometimes

564
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 1: where I'll say I'm going to write five hundred words today,

565
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:17,879
Speaker 1: it's going to be in the first couple of hours

566
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 1: of the day. Of course, in a sense, if you

567
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 1: reframe it, that's a goal. But because it's just a

568
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 1: systematic way of approaching the world, you're not going to

569
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:26,919
Speaker 1: be critical about what you're writing. You're just going to

570
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 1: sort of crank it out. It tends to be a

571
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 1: lot more fulfilling, and people feel much more motivated by

572
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 1: that than they do by long range goal setting.

573
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 3: So how then, like, let's just say you want to

574
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,199
Speaker 3: work on a new book, Like, how what is the

575
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 3: language that that you're then using? Because obviously the idea

576
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,679
Speaker 3: of writing your next book, how can that not be

577
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 3: your goal? Like, because you know you'd have the goal

578
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 3: to you know, whether you work with the same publisher

579
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 3: or get a new publisher, that becomes a goal. Then

580
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,919
Speaker 3: writing the actual you know, sixty thousand word or however

581
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,920
Speaker 3: many word manuscript, Like, how would you then frame that

582
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 3: in your mind? And how would you even make that

583
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 3: decision without it not being a goal? If that makes sense?

584
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 2: No, it makes total sense.

585
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, That's why I think the goals are extremely useful

586
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 1: as general sign posts. So knowing that I want to

587
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 1: have another book written in four or five years or

588
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 1: three years or whatever it may be, that's essential if

589
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 1: you want to frame that as a goal. That's totally fine.

590
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 1: I think that makes sense getting there and using the

591
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 1: term goal as we generally use it as a way

592
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 1: of saying, I have this goal, Now what am I

593
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:35,439
Speaker 1: going to do to get there? I try not to

594
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 1: use that way of thinking about about that particular outcome

595
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,919
Speaker 1: that I'm trying to achieve. Instead, I'll say, all right,

596
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 1: let's look at this. So I want to have a

597
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,479
Speaker 1: book written in Let's say I sign a book contract

598
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 1: and it's twenty four months, so it's two years. How

599
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 1: many words do I need to have written? And when

600
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 1: am I going to write those words? And what's my

601
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 1: system going to be for getting there? So instead of

602
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,440
Speaker 1: making it this kind of very general and generic, long

603
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 1: range goal, it becomes this daily thing that I will

604
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 1: be doing every day, and when you add that up

605
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,200
Speaker 1: over time, that system produces the outcome you're looking for.

606
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 1: It's just not seen as this huge kind of overarching

607
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 1: goal that means that until you reach that, you're in

608
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 1: that failure state. And I find that pretty helpful.

609
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 3: I think it's so interesting the idea around once you

610
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 3: set a goal, you are in a failure state, that

611
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 3: that's so powerful.

612
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 5: It's funny.

613
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 3: I really struggle with with goal setting myself. I remember

614
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 3: that that kind of famous article in HBO. I think

615
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 3: it was called Goal's Gone Wild or something like that,

616
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,399
Speaker 3: that just talks about all the problems with goal setting.

617
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,880
Speaker 5: But I found was, so what do you do instead?

618
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 3: And I do like that idea of systems or even

619
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 3: just you know, the goal being this sign post, but

620
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 3: I guess you know, more focusing on the process or

621
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,479
Speaker 3: the systems of how you know how you're going to

622
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:51,920
Speaker 3: get to that end state.

623
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:53,679
Speaker 5: I think that's that's absolutely fascinating.

624
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that it's just basically backward engineers the

625
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 1: process just a little bit. And it's not that you

626
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:04,399
Speaker 1: don't have goals or you don't have signposts, or you

627
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,439
Speaker 1: don't have end states that you're trying to achieve, and

628
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: obviously that's a hallmark of goal setting. It's that instead

629
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,639
Speaker 1: of treating it like, you know, I'm failing until I

630
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 1: reach that goal. Like let's say you want to run

631
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: a marathon, or you want to write a certain number

632
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 1: of words or whatever it is. Until you do that,

633
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,919
Speaker 1: obviously you haven't succeeded. But it's saying to do that,

634
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 1: I would need to run this much each week or

635
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:25,880
Speaker 1: i'd need to write this much each week. And then

636
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: because it's more bite sized, and because it's much more

637
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,160
Speaker 1: sort of discreete you can say each day is essentially

638
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: a sort of small success in the service of that

639
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 1: ultimate outcome, and it does seem to work for a

640
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 1: lot of people.

641
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 3: You mentioned running just then, and I know that you're

642
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 3: a runner and that you record your runs, but I've

643
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 3: heard you talk about how you actually started doing something

644
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 3: slightly different there with how you were recording your runs.

645
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,479
Speaker 5: Can you talk to me about that? And I guess

646
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 5: you know where the problems.

647
00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 3: Are with recording runs, because I am someone who who yes,

648
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 3: loves a bit of biohacking and measuring exactly what I'm

649
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 3: doing at every moment. Like I got my affle watch,

650
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 3: I measure my steps, but I'm not really I don't

651
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 3: change my behavior dramatically though, and I've got an aura ring,

652
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 3: so I track my sleep quite obsessively. But can you

653
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 3: talk to me about what you started doing and how

654
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 3: that has perhaps improved your running?

655
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 2: Yeah?

656
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 1: So, I guess the concern always is that by monitoring

657
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 1: the process, two things happen. One is that you start

658
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 1: becoming so focused on monitoring that you lose the enjoyment

659
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 1: or the sense of being in that experience, of really

660
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 1: being a part of that experience. And so if you're

661
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 1: running and you're tracking every kilometer or every mile and

662
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 1: you're watching the watch, you basically get to the end

663
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: of the run and you realize you've just missed out

664
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 1: on whatever scenery there was. You didn't pay as much

665
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: attention to your body. You were just paying attention to

666
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: the watch. And then that second problem is that you

667
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 1: don't learn as much to consult your internal cues, which

668
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 1: is known as interoception idea that some people are very

669
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 1: good and some people are not so good at being

670
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: able to say, based on how I feel right now,

671
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: I can tell you that I am at rest, I'm comfortable.

672
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: And if you're a runner, in particular, if it's something

673
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 1: like running or even getting ready for bed at night,

674
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: it's really useful to be able to say I can

675
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: tell you based on how it feels like my heart's beating,

676
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 1: about how what my internal states are that I'm either

677
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: ready for bed or I need to do something different,

678
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: or I'm running at just the right pace. I know

679
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 1: what it feels like to run.

680
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 2: I don't know.

681
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 1: Let's say a five minute kilometer or whatever it may be.

682
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: And so by using a watch and consulting at the

683
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: whole time or any device, you kind of lose a

684
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: lot of the experience. So what I do is I

685
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 1: want to know at the end of it all, what

686
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 1: my heart rate was throughout the run, what my pacing was, like,

687
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: how far I ran, all that sort of stuff. But

688
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:50,479
Speaker 1: I don't want it to intrude on the event, so

689
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 1: I do one of two things. Some of the watches

690
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: allow you actually turn the screens off, which is great.

691
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 1: The watch that I have now doesn't allow me to

692
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,040
Speaker 1: do that. So what I do is I'll tape a

693
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: little bit of sort of like laminated plastic over the

694
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 1: face of the watch so it's still picking up everything

695
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 1: during the run. I'll turn off all notifications, so I

696
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 1: hit one button when the run begins, and I'll hit

697
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 1: another button when the run ends. So all the data

698
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 1: are stored in the watch and I can consult them afterwards.

699
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 1: But I don't think about it at all during the run.

700
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 1: It's really just about the run, and so I find

701
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 1: that a really useful balance. Some people don't run with

702
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 1: watches at all, but I really want the data, so

703
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: for me, that's a good trade off.

704
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 5: That's cool.

705
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 3: So you've got literally a sheet of plastic or something

706
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 3: on the top of your.

707
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: Watch face me low tech, but it works.

708
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 3: That's awesome. Reminds me of a tip I heard from someone.

709
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 3: This is from Kevin Rose actually, who said sometimes he'll

710
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 3: put a rubber band on his phone, so to use

711
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 3: the phone, he'll have to physically remove the rubber band,

712
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 3: which I guess kind of comes back to just some

713
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 3: of the things you were talking about in terms of

714
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 3: just creating those physical barriers to make that natural behavior

715
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 3: a little bit harder and seat of stop those stop

716
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 3: those habit loops. I want to ask about boredom. I

717
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 3: read Digital Minimalism by Cal Newport. Of course, Irresistible, your book,

718
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 3: one of your books, was referenced quite a bit in

719
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 3: Digital Minimalism, as you'd know, and the book talks quite

720
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 3: a lot about boredom, and I was curious in your

721
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 3: own life is being bored in that state? Is that

722
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 3: something that you deliberately try to foster.

723
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:27,719
Speaker 2: It's funny.

724
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: The final manuscript for Irresistible was turned in the morning

725
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 1: my wife went into labor with my first child. So

726
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: the whole writing that book happened before I had kids,

727
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 1: and so the way I thought about that book as

728
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 1: a not yet dad was very different from how I

729
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 1: think about it now.

730
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 2: And it's really interesting.

731
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 1: Col's just his approach and all the stuff he's thought

732
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 1: about with the respect to boredom. I was much more

733
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 1: frequently bored before I had kids. I guess I feel

734
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 1: that it's tough to be bored when you have kids,

735
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: or at least it's been. It hasn't been as frequently

736
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 1: an issue for me, and so that's just something that

737
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 1: I've noticed. But I think when I do hit these

738
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 1: processes or periods when I do feel a little bit bored,

739
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: I find them pretty useful a lot of the time,

740
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 1: and I try to inhabit them rather than pushing them

741
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 1: aside or finding a way to distract myself. And much

742
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 1: of the time that's been pretty effective. And I find

743
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: that I'm if I hit a wall and I'm a

744
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 1: little bit bored, and I push through it. Very often

745
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 1: the idea for a new article or even a chapter

746
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 1: in a book, or even an idea for a potential

747
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: idea for a book comes of that. One of the

748
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 1: things I do in those moments is I have a document.

749
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 1: I have two documents. Actually, one is called book Ideas

750
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: and the other one is called research Ideas. And every

751
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: time I have an idea, I'll go to the document

752
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 1: and I'll add it to the document. And you know,

753
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 1: the research ideas document now is I don't know, hundreds

754
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 1: and hundreds of different little ideas, and the book ideas

755
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 1: document is probably twenty or thirty ideas. Most of them

756
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 1: when I go back to them, I realize they're terrible ideas.

757
00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 1: But one of the things I do is when I

758
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 1: was in a period of being bored and I thought

759
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 1: about those ideas, and they came to me in those

760
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 1: periods of boredom. As I write them into the document,

761
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 1: I'll put a little asterisk that tells me this is

762
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 1: one of the ideas that came about while I was

763
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 1: in one of those periods of idleness or boredom. And

764
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 1: a huge proportion of those ideas come during those moments,

765
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 1: which I mean, I'm a sample of one, but I

766
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 1: get the sense that people who avoid boredom at all

767
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 1: costs are putting aside the possibility to have a lot

768
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 1: of really creative and interesting ideas because they stay in

769
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: the same kind of pattern of thinking all the time.

770
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 1: We really only deviate from that pattern when we hit

771
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 1: some sort of obstacle, like being bored, when you really

772
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 1: have to think about things a little bit differently.

773
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 3: That is great that you've tracked that. I absolutely love that.

774
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 3: It's funny. I can really relate. I found that one

775
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 3: of the biggest changes I made to my own behavior

776
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 3: after reading Digital Minimalism was that, like I was constantly,

777
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 3: like in putting stimulus into my brain, Like I generally

778
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 3: spend the first hour of the day from about six

779
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 3: to seven am moving in some way unless I'm doing

780
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 3: podcast interviews, but I'm either at the gym or I'm

781
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,400
Speaker 3: walking or something like that, and that's like one of

782
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 3: my times where I will consume a lot of podcasts.

783
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:16,760
Speaker 3: And Digital Minimalism really made me reflect on that behavior,

784
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,359
Speaker 3: and so I set this rule for myself that I'm

785
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 3: allowed a maximum of fifty percent of that time to

786
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 3: be receiving stimulus via podcast, and the rest of that

787
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 3: time it just has to be silent. And I found that, like, suddenly,

788
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,760
Speaker 3: I would just have this overwhelming creativity at these points

789
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 3: in time where previously I've probably been blocking it because

790
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 3: I was just pushing stuff into my brain, so I

791
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 3: can absolutely relate to that.

792
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:43,880
Speaker 2: That's really interesting.

793
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the single biggest I guess change that

794
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 1: improved my well being that was completely unintentional. I didn't

795
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 1: realize it would have this effect is a little bit

796
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:55,240
Speaker 1: like that. It's that I used to run with music.

797
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 1: It was just the way I started running when I

798
00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 1: first began, and I'd done it for years and years,

799
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 1: and one day I decided I was going to stop

800
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 1: running with music, and it changed the experience of running dramatically. Occasionally,

801
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 1: when I'm on a treadmill, I'll watch something or I'll

802
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 1: listen to music, but when I'm outside, I will never, ever,

803
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 1: ever run with music. And I found that it's completely

804
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: changed the experience. Partly for the reasons you're describing that

805
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 1: you get this, You get the ability to sort of

806
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 1: take in everything around you. Maybe you do hit that

807
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 1: brief period of boredom depending on the sorts of things

808
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 1: you think about when you run, and interesting ideas come

809
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 1: of that. And I'll often be on a run and

810
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 1: think about something interesting and wish that I had a

811
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 1: pat and paper with me. Sometimes I lose those ideas,

812
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 1: sometimes they come back to me, but I feel that

813
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: just intuitively I thinking about it and introspectively, I do

814
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 1: come up with a lot of those ideas now that

815
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 1: I would never have if I'd been listening to music.

816
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:48,839
Speaker 1: And so I think that's a really valuable idea that

817
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 1: we all naturally try to kind of fill all of

818
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 1: our senses, and so when it's a matter of moving around,

819
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 1: we try to either listen to something or watch something.

820
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,280
Speaker 1: But doing less of that, I think is an incredibly

821
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:06,880
Speaker 1: valuable thing to do. You recuperate better that way. I

822
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 1: think it's restorative, but also probably opens you up to

823
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:13,800
Speaker 1: more ideas and different ways of thinking about things.

824
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 3: Now. You mentioned the point of the Irresistible Manuscript being

825
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,879
Speaker 3: submitted was the sort of democation point between not being

826
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 3: a parent and being a parent, which is of course

827
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 3: one of the biggest life shifts.

828
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 5: That one can experience.

829
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,359
Speaker 3: I think looking back on the book now and what

830
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 3: you now know about the concepts you wrote about now

831
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 3: that you're a parent, You've got a three year old

832
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 3: and a nearly two year old. Now, would you have

833
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 3: added or changed anything about the book with the lens

834
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 3: that you now have as a parent.

835
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know that I would have changed a

836
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:50,799
Speaker 1: huge amount about the book. I think the book, you know,

837
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 1: it stands as it is, but when I speak, I

838
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:56,239
Speaker 1: think this happens with a lot of books. Actually, when

839
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 1: you write them, you always sort of try to imagine

840
00:37:57,960 --> 00:37:59,360
Speaker 1: what am I going to be speaking about when I

841
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: talk about the book book, both at book events but

842
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 1: also more broadly, and I've done a fair amount of

843
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 1: speaking behind the book, and by far the biggest thing

844
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 1: is raising kids education, how screens are affecting kids. That's

845
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 1: been a huge topic that forms maybe half a chapter

846
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 1: in the book. I may have devoted a bit more

847
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 1: time to it, but my thinking since submitting that final

848
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 1: draft of the manuscript and since the book came out

849
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, has been hugely devoted to

850
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:28,919
Speaker 1: thinking about whether this is affecting kids in bad ways,

851
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 1: how much we know, what we still need to know

852
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,360
Speaker 1: about it. So I don't know if I'd change that

853
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 1: much about the book, but certainly my thinking has been

854
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: much more focused on kids than it ever was before I.

855
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 2: Was a parent.

856
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'm really keen to know what your approach

857
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 3: is at home, because I certainly know, like in my household,

858
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,319
Speaker 3: I've got a five year old girl, and we my

859
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,919
Speaker 3: husband and I have been very strict around the screens rule,

860
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:55,760
Speaker 3: and probably up until the age of four years old,

861
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 3: we were just no screens, no TV.

862
00:38:58,680 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 5: She could do whatever.

863
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 3: She once at her friend's houses at playdates, and we

864
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 3: had this interesting experience. Actually, she's just started prep this

865
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 3: year where they're on the iPads at prep, which I

866
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 3: feel a little bit conflicted about. Frankie's never used an

867
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 3: iPad up until this point, and I remember the teacher

868
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 3: pulled us aside and pick up one day and she said, look,

869
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 3: you should probably bring this iPad home with you because

870
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:28,280
Speaker 3: Frankie is really struggling on the iPad. And we're like, oh, okay,

871
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 3: Like how long should she use it? And she said

872
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,800
Speaker 3: just fifteen minutes a day. And literally, within a week

873
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 3: of Frankie doing fifteen minutes practice of these apps on

874
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 3: the iPad, they're just.

875
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 5: Like, oh, she's completely caught up. She's great.

876
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 3: Now you can give the iPad back and it's like okay,

877
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:47,799
Speaker 3: So yeah, so that hard to learn. But I just

878
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 3: found that really interesting. But I want to know, in

879
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 3: your own life, what's your approach to technology with your

880
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 3: two little people.

881
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we tried to follow the American Academy Pediatrics.

882
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:01,479
Speaker 1: They suggested that kids should have access to screens until

883
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,279
Speaker 1: they're too and so with my son, we were very

884
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 1: good about that. He would come home from school as

885
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 1: he was approaching the age of two, he was coming home,

886
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 1: I say school, he was coming home from daycare, and

887
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 1: you know, his friends were coming in with Elmo dolls

888
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:18,840
Speaker 1: and things like that. And Sesame Street is everything in

889
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: the US, I mean it's huge, and so every little

890
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 1: kid has the little Elmo doll. They wear clothes with

891
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 1: Sesame Street's characters on them. And I started to feel

892
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 1: that although I felt pretty good about the fact that

893
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 1: he wasn't watching screens, I started to feel like we

894
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 1: were depriving him of something a little bit different. There

895
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 1: was a sort of little social universe that was forming

896
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 1: around this cultural knowledge that came from engaging with screens,

897
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 1: and I started to wonder, where is the right place

898
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 1: to draw the line. How do you deal with that

899
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 1: particular trade off? And we ended up letting him watch

900
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 1: Sesame Street from the age of two. He didn't have

901
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 1: access to iPads or iPhones or anything like that, and

902
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 1: he didn't watch anything else for a while. What was complicated, though,

903
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 1: was we also had a six month old daughter, and

904
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 1: so she was watching him watch screens. Now, interestingly, she

905
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:07,760
Speaker 1: hasn't developed a taste for TV the way he has,

906
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,320
Speaker 1: but he the minute we gave him access to screens,

907
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,240
Speaker 1: he really, really, very strongly wanted to watch TV pretty

908
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:16,720
Speaker 1: much all the time, which is very typical of young kids.

909
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 2: If you give them that kind of crutch, they'll use it.

910
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:21,840
Speaker 1: Our daughter isn't like that at all, which is interesting,

911
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 1: but that's always I think the bigger issue here is

912
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 1: that there are great theories about what you should be

913
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 1: doing with kids, and a lot of them are incredibly

914
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 1: difficult to follow, and there are so many complexities. I

915
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 1: have these very sort of hard and fast theoretical rules

916
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 1: in mind, and I've found that for me personally, it's

917
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 1: been very hard to follow them. And it's partly hard logistically,

918
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:44,320
Speaker 1: because if you have two kids, the younger kid is

919
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 1: going to see what the older one is doing, and

920
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 1: that's going to affect affect your ability to sort of

921
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 1: impose exactly the same rules at the same time with

922
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 1: the kids. But I also find that there are things

923
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,359
Speaker 1: that I hadn't realized, like this idea that being the

924
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 1: only one not doing something can be tricky. You mentioned

925
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:03,280
Speaker 1: that your daughter, for a very very brief time, struggle

926
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 1: to use the iPad. I mean, I think iPads are

927
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 1: so incredibly well designed that it takes very little time

928
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,439
Speaker 1: for anyone to learn how to use them. That's that's

929
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 1: the big concerns that the schools have here. They always

930
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 1: talk about this idea that we're introducing your kids to

931
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 1: iPads because we want to make sure that they're not

932
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 1: left behind. That's completely backward because it takes no time

933
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 1: at all. As you said, Yeah, so, yeah, we are.

934
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 1: We let our kids watch about an hour a day maximum.

935
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 1: It's usually broken down by the morning, they'll watch maybe

936
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:34,879
Speaker 1: half an hour. In the evening they'll watch maybe half

937
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,839
Speaker 1: an hour. And that's that's pretty much it. And we're

938
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 1: very very careful about what we let them watch and

939
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 1: what they see. But yeah, we are not We're not

940
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 1: the most strict or the least strict. Where somewhere in

941
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 1: the middle.

942
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 3: I'd say, yeah, that's interesting, And and do you have

943
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:51,879
Speaker 3: ideas for I guess, you know, as they progress through

944
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 3: the next few years at school, you know, have you

945
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 3: kind of got I guess what your guiding principles will

946
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,320
Speaker 3: be in mind, Like based on research that you're consuming.

947
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm a sort of very big believer in general

948
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 1: in the idea of balance. So I think in general,

949
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 1: abstinence doesn't work with many things, and I think digital

950
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 1: experiences are the same. It's really tough to kind of

951
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:17,919
Speaker 1: say we're never going to do this thing that's bad

952
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 1: for us or hard not to do. And so the

953
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:23,840
Speaker 1: one conversation I want to have with my kids that

954
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 1: I've already started having with my son who's a little

955
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:27,799
Speaker 1: bit older, is is this idea of balance and how

956
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 1: important it is in pretty much everything we do. And

957
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:32,359
Speaker 1: so I think there's going to be a place in

958
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 1: his life or whatever social media platform happens to be

959
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 1: the big thing at the time when he's old enough,

960
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 1: but it's going to be a small place. It's going

961
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 1: to be balanced, it's going to be that'll obviously be

962
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:44,279
Speaker 1: you know a lot of people using nutrition metaphors or

963
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:49,240
Speaker 1: environmentalism metaphors this idea that screen time is really dessert,

964
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 1: and the worst dessert of all, the least healthy dessert,

965
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 1: is the time you spend on social media apps. And

966
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 1: so I want to sort of convey that to my kids.

967
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 1: And balance is a very true concept I think kids

968
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 1: get it from a very young age. They understand that

969
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 1: you can't always do the same thing, or can't always

970
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 1: have the same thing. They don't always like it, but

971
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 1: they get it. They get that it's a thing, that

972
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,239
Speaker 1: it's an idea that's perhaps useful, a useful way of

973
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 1: understanding the world. And so I'd like to impart that

974
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 1: and to have them understand that, yes, there will be

975
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:20,720
Speaker 1: time we'll have to navigate that as it gets closer

976
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 1: for social media and for screens, but it'll be balanced

977
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 1: by time spend out doors, exercising, having proper conversations at

978
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 1: the dinner table, and so on. I realize that as

979
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 1: someone with a three year old and a two year old,

980
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 1: I'm this this great position of being able to control

981
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 1: pretty much everything they're doing at this point in a

982
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:41,320
Speaker 1: way I would never be able to do when they're teens.

983
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 1: So this probably does sound to some extent naive, but

984
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:47,839
Speaker 1: that's what I hope will happen. I also think it's

985
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 1: going to be a very different world when they're teens.

986
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 1: So in ten years, the social media and screen landscape

987
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 1: is going to look very very different, I think, And

988
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 1: so it's really hard to say exactly what we'll be doing,

989
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 1: but we'll certainly be mindful about it all the way.

990
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 5: I like that. I like that idea of balance it.

991
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, it reminds me of something I heard a writer

992
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:09,720
Speaker 3: say a few years ago when it comes to food

993
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 3: and how talking about you know, not bad and good food,

994
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:17,239
Speaker 3: but saying that there's everyday food which are like, you know,

995
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 3: fruits and vegetables and so forth, and then there's sometimes food.

996
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 3: And so with Frankie, that's just been language that she's

997
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 3: kind of grown up with, where this is an everyday

998
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,760
Speaker 3: thing and this is a sometimes thing, which just reminds

999
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,400
Speaker 3: me of your concept of how you talk about balance

1000
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:34,279
Speaker 3: with your son at the moment.

1001
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 1: I think that's really really a great way of describing

1002
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 1: this every day versus the Other thing it does is

1003
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,520
Speaker 1: the sort of licenses you to enjoy those sometimes things

1004
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:45,399
Speaker 1: you don't want to add as you do those things,

1005
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 1: and I think that's a good way to ensure that.

1006
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly, exactly.

1007
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 3: Now, one last question for you out of how can

1008
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 3: people find you if they want to consume more of

1009
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 3: what you're writing and thinking about.

1010
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:00,720
Speaker 1: So the funny thing about being an academ because everything

1011
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 1: is public, so if you search for my name on Google,

1012
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:08,880
Speaker 1: you'll find my academic homepage, my personal writing and research homepage.

1013
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 1: Everything just pops up instantly, so so really just search

1014
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,720
Speaker 1: for me. I'm also on Twitter at Adam the ALTA

1015
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 1: A D A M L E E A L T

1016
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 1: E R. I don't spend a huge amount of time

1017
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 1: on Facebook. I do have pages there, but I don't

1018
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 1: update them much. But really Twitter is where I if

1019
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,759
Speaker 1: I spend any time on social media, it's there, but

1020
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 1: probably just a quick Google search will.

1021
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:31,359
Speaker 2: Do the job.

1022
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 3: Fantastic. And look, we'll link to those places in the

1023
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 3: show notes. And I feel that that's quite on brand

1024
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:40,960
Speaker 3: that you're not particularly on Facebook. I'd be disappointed if

1025
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:41,920
Speaker 3: you were active on it.

1026
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:44,839
Speaker 5: Look, thank you. Adam.

1027
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 3: Has just been such a joy to chat to you,

1028
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 3: and as I mentioned, so surreal doing one of these

1029
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 3: early morning interviews for me where I'm used to talking

1030
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 3: to an American voice, so it's just felt like home

1031
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 3: talking to another and so thank you for that.

1032
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 2: Thanks very much for doing the interview.

1033
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:04,560
Speaker 3: Hello there, that is it for today's show. I hope

1034
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 3: you got some useful tips from Adam, and if you

1035
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 3: enjoyed it and know someone that you think might benefit

1036
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 3: from this interview.

1037
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 4: Why not share it with.

1038
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 3: Them on social media, or maybe just shoot them an

1039
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 3: email and say, hey, listen to this interview. So that's

1040
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 3: it for today and I will see you next time.