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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, children should be seen and not heard, Spare the rod,

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Speaker 2: spoil the child. These kinds of things have been ingrained

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Speaker 2: in the way we raise children and the things that

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Speaker 2: parents say, and it just keeps on getting perpetuated generation

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Speaker 2: after generation.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mom

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Speaker 1: and Dad.

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Speaker 2: I feel as though May the first needs to be

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Speaker 2: a special day. It kind of already is. So we're

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Speaker 2: in Queensland today. It's a public holiday in Queensland. It's

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Speaker 2: Labor Day. That's because May the first, it's also known

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Speaker 2: as May Day. On May the first, May Day is

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Speaker 2: Worker's Day or International Workers Day. It commemorates the struggles

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Speaker 2: and the gains made by workers and the labor movement.

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Speaker 2: But I kind of feel like there's something else happening

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Speaker 2: today that matters.

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Speaker 3: What might that be?

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Speaker 2: Well, I was gurgling again and I discovered that on

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Speaker 2: this day, May the first, the body of British mountaineer

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Speaker 2: George Mallory was discovered on Mount Everest, some seventy five

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Speaker 2: years after he and Andrew Irvine disappeared while attempting to

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Speaker 2: become the first people to summit the peak. Wow, I

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Speaker 2: thought that.

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Speaker 3: Was that's noteworthy.

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Speaker 2: That's noteworthy. I did some more googling, and the Empire

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Speaker 2: State Building in New York City officially opened on May Day.

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Speaker 2: It was the tallest building in the world for forty

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Speaker 2: years until it was overtaken. But I kind of feel

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Speaker 2: like there's something else happening today that matters, something else

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Speaker 2: that makes May the first an important day, And no

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Speaker 2: matter how much I google, I'm just not finding it.

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Speaker 2: Can you help me?

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Speaker 3: Might it have something to do with a new book

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Speaker 3: being released?

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Speaker 2: A new book? Oh, I think you might be onder something.

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Speaker 2: So I got a new book coming out, Kylie. It's

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Speaker 2: out today. Technically it doesn't come out until the third,

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Speaker 2: but it's in bookshelves.

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Speaker 3: On bookshe It's really serious. Once you google May first.

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Speaker 2: It says this was the day that the pairing revolution began.

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Speaker 2: New book.

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Speaker 3: Very exciting. We've been through this process a handful of

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Speaker 3: times now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is literally my eighth book published, so I

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Speaker 2: should be used to it. But I'm so pumped. I'm

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Speaker 2: so excited about this.

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Speaker 3: There should be There's a lot of work that goes

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Speaker 3: into the preparation, the planning, the research, and then the

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Speaker 3: actual sitting down and putting all of your thoughts together,

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Speaker 3: collating it and creating something that's actually noteworthy and worth reading.

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Speaker 2: So I need to make a confession about this book.

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Speaker 2: The Pairing Revolution is the new book. It's on bookshelves today.

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Speaker 2: You can get it online, you can order it wherever

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Speaker 2: books are sold. When I went through the final draft

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Speaker 2: of the book, I actually sent an email through to

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Speaker 2: my publisher and said, you know what, I'm going to

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Speaker 2: give it a three point eight, which is good, like

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Speaker 2: it's a pass. It's a good book, it's helpful, but

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Speaker 2: I just feel like I didn't nail it. And she

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Speaker 2: was kind of a little bit upset with me when

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Speaker 2: I said that. But and here's the redemption right now.

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Speaker 2: Just over a month ago, as you know, I sat

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Speaker 2: in a studio in Brisbane and I read it word

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Speaker 2: for word out loud the audiobook. So I've had to

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Speaker 2: do the audiobook and it's such a painstaking thing. You

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Speaker 2: sit there hour after hour reading page after page of

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Speaker 2: the book, and every time I read another page or

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Speaker 2: another chapter, I thought I was better than three point eight.

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Speaker 2: That was really good. I got to the end, and

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Speaker 2: I was like, this is like, this is a solid

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Speaker 2: four point four to four point five, maybe even a

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Speaker 2: four point six. I'm really excited about the book. I

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Speaker 2: feel like I've written a cracker, Like I really think

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Speaker 2: this is not just a helpful book, but I think

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Speaker 2: it's a really interesting and exciting book about raising kids.

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Speaker 2: And it's so different to anything I've written before.

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Speaker 3: It sounds like you might be suffering from a little

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Speaker 3: bit of imposter syndrome there.

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Speaker 2: Well, I was early on, but I'm not anymore. I'm

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Speaker 2: like by this, I'm so excited about it. So I

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Speaker 2: thought on the podcast, we might talk about while I'm

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Speaker 2: so in love with my new book. Is that Okay,

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Speaker 2: of course, let's talk about it.

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Speaker 3: So I have to confess I have not had the

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Speaker 3: opportunity to read this one. No, I haven't read a

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Speaker 3: single draft. You've obviously had conversations with me. I've been

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Speaker 3: aware of some of the contents. One of the things

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Speaker 3: that I found fascinating, and I would watch you as

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Speaker 3: you would discover new things, and just you would itching

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Speaker 3: to share the things that you were learning is just

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Speaker 3: the horrible history of parenting. There was some absolutely crazy

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Speaker 3: stories that you shared with me, can you give us

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Speaker 3: a little sneak peek of some of the stories that

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Speaker 3: people will find in the book.

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Speaker 2: So I don't want to go too deeply into this

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Speaker 2: because I really spell it out in the first chapter

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Speaker 2: of the book. But Kylie, I did a lot of

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Speaker 2: research for this book, and something that I discovered. I've

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Speaker 2: always had this idea that his stole Bally parents have

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Speaker 2: been benign. They've been benevolent. They've obviously had some kind

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Speaker 2: of weird ideas about raising kids, but I mean, we're

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Speaker 2: all here today, so they mustn't have done too bad

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Speaker 2: a job. They must have been okay with what they

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Speaker 2: were doing. That's kind of been the thinking behind where

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Speaker 2: I've been at in terms of the history of parenting.

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Speaker 2: But I came across this book a couple of years

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Speaker 2: ago called Act Natural, A Cultural History of Misadventures in

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Speaker 2: Parenting by Jennifer Traig, and it set me off on

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Speaker 2: this course of reading. I found another book called Foundations

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Speaker 2: of Psychohistory with a chapter called the Evolution of Childhood

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Speaker 2: and people who have dug into the history books and

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Speaker 2: looked specifically at behaviors and attitudes towards children and parenting.

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Speaker 2: I'm telling you. It is staggering. It's just overwhelming, And

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Speaker 2: what it really is is a story of unrelenting cruelty

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Speaker 2: across not just hundreds, but literally thousands of years. The

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Speaker 2: stories that I unpack in that first chat, you kind

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Speaker 2: of have to have a pretty strong constitution. I've been

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Speaker 2: a little bit soft and not gotten into the real detail.

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Speaker 2: But there are a couple of things that I want

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Speaker 2: to share. First off, well, let me share a quote

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Speaker 2: from Lloyd de Mouse. He's the one who wrote the

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Speaker 2: Foundations of Psychohistory and had the Evolution of Childhood chapter.

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Speaker 2: He wrote about what he's discovered, and this is a

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Speaker 2: direct quote from him. He says, the evidence which I've

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Speaker 2: collected on methods of disciplining children leads me to believe

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Speaker 2: that a very large percentage of the children born prior

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Speaker 2: to the eighteenth century were what would today be termed

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Speaker 2: battered children. Of over two hundred statements of advice on

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Speaker 2: child rearing prior to the eighteenth century which I've examined,

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Speaker 2: most approved of beating children severely, and all allowed beating

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Speaker 2: in varying circumstances. Of the seventy children prior to the

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Speaker 2: eighteenth century whose lives I've found all were beaten except one.

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Speaker 2: And then he describes how children were hit, and again

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Speaker 2: this is the direct quote. He says beating instruments. Getting

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Speaker 2: weepy just reading this, it actually really upsets me. Beating

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Speaker 2: instruments included whips of all kinds, including the cat of

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Speaker 2: nine tails, shovels, canes, iron and wooden rods, bundles of sticks,

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Speaker 2: the discipline, which was a whip made of small chains,

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Speaker 2: and special school instruments like the flapper, which had a

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Speaker 2: pear shaped end and a round hole to raise blisters.

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Speaker 2: He says their comparative frequency of use may be indicated

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Speaker 2: by the categories of the German schoolmaster who reckoned he'd

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Speaker 2: given nine hundred and eleven five hundred and twenty seven

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Speaker 2: strokes with the stick, one hundred and twenty four thousand

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Speaker 2: lashes with the whip, one hundred and thirty six seven

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Speaker 2: hundred and fifteen slaps with the hand, and one million,

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Speaker 2: one hundred and fifteen eight hundred boxes on the ear.

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Speaker 2: And then he just finishes by saying the beatings described

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Speaker 2: in all of the sources I researched were generally severe

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Speaker 2: to our way of thinking, and almost always involved bruising

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Speaker 2: and bloodying of the body. The punishment began early and

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Speaker 2: was a regular part of the child's life.

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Speaker 3: While my personal history it doesn't go back hundreds of years,

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Speaker 3: in the short time I have been alive, I personally

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Speaker 3: remember in primary school the cane being a disciplinary tool

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Speaker 3: that principles would use on students in my class.

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Speaker 2: It probably most days the principal would. So if you're

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Speaker 2: a gen XA in Australia or New Zealand, or probably

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Speaker 2: North America or England, we were alive when the cane

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Speaker 2: was still in active use. It was banned as we

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Speaker 2: were growing up and going through our earlier years of

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Speaker 2: primary school. And I can't emphasize this enough. It takes

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Speaker 2: generations to overcome that kind of trauma. And even if

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Speaker 2: we overcome the trauma, or our ancestors, our four bears,

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Speaker 2: overcame the trauma, they still pass on the ethic and

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Speaker 2: the attitude children should be seen and not heard. Spoil

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Speaker 2: what is it, spare the rod, spoil the child. These

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Speaker 2: kinds of things have been ingrained, absolutely fundamentally ingrained in

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Speaker 2: the way we raise children and the things that parents say,

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Speaker 2: and it just keeps on getting perpetuated. Generation after generation.

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Speaker 3: Well, you just have to look at the debate that

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Speaker 3: still exists over whether or not parents should be allowed

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Speaker 3: to smack their chores.

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Speaker 2: Why are we still talking about this in twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 3: It causes such a divide. Yeah, every time it comes.

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Speaker 2: Up, it's stunning, and that's why I wrote a book

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Speaker 2: called the Parenting Revolution. Now I've got a quote as

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Speaker 2: we wrap up this horrible history conversation from a historian

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Speaker 2: called LP Hartley, sorry, an English novelist LP Hartley, who

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Speaker 2: says the past is a foreign country. They do things

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Speaker 2: differently there. So I'm not sharing what's in chapter one,

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Speaker 2: and that's about as bad as it gets. I've shared

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Speaker 2: the most scary stuff there, but I'm not sharing it

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Speaker 2: so that I can raise eyebrows, and I'm not doing

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Speaker 2: it for shock factor. I'm doing it to highlight we

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Speaker 2: need a parenting revolution, because even one hundred years ago,

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Speaker 2: even once we'd moved past that kind of stuff, people

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Speaker 2: like John B. Watson, who was the father of the

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Speaker 2: modern psychology science. In the early nineteen hundreds, He's quoted

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Speaker 2: as saying things like mother love is a dangerous instrument.

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Speaker 3: Well, think about Freud.

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Speaker 2: Freud was horrendous, and yet he's one of the most

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Speaker 2: famous psychologists of all time and.

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Speaker 3: Still to this day is taught in universities. When I

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Speaker 3: was doing my studies more than twenty years ago, he

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Speaker 3: was still one of the most cited and quoted psychologists

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Speaker 3: of our time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, apparently a child development expert, and Freud is not

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Speaker 2: nearly as popular as someone like doctor Phil. And I'm

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Speaker 2: not sure who's been more dangerous to children, doctor Phil

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Speaker 2: or Sigmund Freud or John Watson. But even I mean,

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Speaker 2: we've got people like Jean Jacques Rousseau, who was known

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Speaker 2: as this wonderful philosopher during the Enlightenment that made such

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Speaker 2: a big difference. He had five kids, he stuck them

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Speaker 2: in an orphanage so he could concentrate on his writing.

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Speaker 2: These are the people who have influenced how we parent today.

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Speaker 2: And I call it the parenting revolution. I know that

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Speaker 2: sounds lofty, but it's because we need a revolution. It's

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Speaker 2: just awful. It's awful what parents have been taught, children

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Speaker 2: have had done to them and then decided that they

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Speaker 2: needed to do something like that with their kids as

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Speaker 2: they're raising them.

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Speaker 3: So one of the things that really sparked I guess

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Speaker 3: your interest in writing this book was because of the

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Speaker 3: experiences you've had on the TV show Parental Guidance. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: And the notion behind the TV show is looking at

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Speaker 3: the different ways parents parent. Yeah, and so part of

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Speaker 3: the book you actually explore all of these different kinds

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Speaker 3: of parenting styles. Can you just give us a little

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Speaker 3: bit of insight about how that looks before I do that.

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Speaker 2: Season two is really really close. Now, I just had

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Speaker 2: to say Parental Guidance. Season two is really close. And

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Speaker 2: I wanted to call the book parental Guidance, but we've

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Speaker 2: got a TV show called Parental Guidance, and I wasn't

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Speaker 2: allowed to call the book parental Guidance. But we've really

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Speaker 2: gone deep in the show in playing around with what

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Speaker 2: a parenting style is and all the different ways that

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Speaker 2: there are so many different ways you can raise your kids.

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Speaker 2: And so, as you probably remember from season one, and

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Speaker 2: I can't say much about season two, but in season one,

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Speaker 2: we had the free range parents and the tiger parents,

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Speaker 2: and we had the attachment parents, and we had the

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Speaker 2: strict parents, we had the disciplined parents, we had the

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Speaker 2: French parents, the French NUVU kind of parenting. We had

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Speaker 2: the nature parents. I can't believe I can remember them all.

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Speaker 2: That's how much this show got into by veins and

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Speaker 2: the media and the mummy blogs and Instagram and TikTok

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Speaker 2: keep on coming up with more and more parenting styles,

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Speaker 2: but ultimately they all revolve around a couple of key

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Speaker 2: ideas that were discovered in about the nineteen fifties nineteen

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Speaker 2: sixties with somebody called Earl Schaefer, and then moving into

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Speaker 2: Diana Bormand and some other very well known psychology researchers

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Speaker 2: from that era, and ultimately, parenting comes down to how

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Speaker 2: much love you show to your kids and what you

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Speaker 2: do about limits. Love and limits are the two big variables.

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Speaker 2: But here's the thing. With all of the research that

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Speaker 2: was done through those decades, let's say from the fifties

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Speaker 2: to the nineties, there was actually a third variable that

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Speaker 2: no one ever talks about. Because when they drew the

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Speaker 2: table the grid, it was a two by two are

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Speaker 2: you high or low on demanding this? And are you

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Speaker 2: high or low on responsiveness and warmth? There was this

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Speaker 2: other one that no one ever talked about. It never

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Speaker 2: made it into the grid, so therefore it never got discussed,

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Speaker 2: and that third thing was this thing called autonomy support.

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Speaker 2: And as it turns out, when we look at the

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Speaker 2: really well done science across those decades, that's the key

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Speaker 2: that's at the heart of it. And so all of

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Speaker 2: these parenting styles they're based on the extent to which

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Speaker 2: parents are involved with their kids, the extent to which

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Speaker 2: parents are setting up structure and boundaries and so on

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Speaker 2: with their kids, and the extent to which they support

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Speaker 2: their autonomy. It's just that nobody's talked about it. And

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Speaker 2: my book is ultimately about how to nail it, because

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Speaker 2: there's no one right parenting style when you're looking at

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Speaker 2: all of those ones, because they're based on flawed data,

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Speaker 2: they're based on flowd assumptions, they're based on science that

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Speaker 2: missed the key thing. But there's this brand new science

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Speaker 2: that's come out. It's called self determination theory. Well, when

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Speaker 2: I say brand new, it's been going since the nineteen seventies,

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Speaker 2: been in the last couple of decades, especially in the

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Speaker 2: last half a dozen years. Oh my goodness, the discoveries

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Speaker 2: have been astounding. And I go into those discoveries, I

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Speaker 2: talk about what they are and why they matter, and

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Speaker 2: how we can revolutionize our parenting by getting this right.

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Speaker 3: So I'm sure if you're listening to this you can

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Speaker 3: feel the energy and excitement who sing from justin.

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Speaker 2: It's not a three point eight book. It's a four

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Speaker 2: point five, four point six. I'm telling you it's really good.

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Speaker 3: But I'm wondering, with all of the things that you

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Speaker 3: have learned, as you've researched and actually taken the time

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Speaker 3: to put your thoughts down on paper, what is it

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Speaker 3: that you're really hoping parents will come away with as

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Speaker 3: they read your book.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so I'm going to share an experiment that I

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Speaker 2: talk about in the book. It's on like a page

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Speaker 2: one hundred and fifteen of the book, and I wasn't

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Speaker 2: expecting the question, but I've done a quick search in

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Speaker 2: the book when you asked it, and I've looked it

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Speaker 2: up straight away. So there's a lady called Wendy Grohlnik.

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Speaker 2: She's in the United States at Clark University right now.

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Speaker 2: But in the nineteen eighties she sat down with a

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Speaker 2: couple of collaborators and Frody and Lisa Bridges. They got

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Speaker 2: forty one mums to come into the psych lab with

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Speaker 2: their one year old children and they put the kids

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Speaker 2: and mums in the room, just in their mother child

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Speaker 2: diad's just one pair ad of time. And they said, hey,

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Speaker 2: here's this toy. Now I can't remember exactly the toy

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Speaker 2: that it was, but let's imagine it's one of those

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Speaker 2: shape sorders. And they've said to the mums, sit next

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Speaker 2: to your child while he or she plays with the toy.

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Speaker 2: They've videotaped it for three minutes. And imagine Kyle, that

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Speaker 2: you're sitting with our one year old in a psych

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Speaker 2: lab and you've just been given this toy to play with.

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Speaker 2: I imagine it's like a shape sorter, and you've just

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Speaker 2: been given this general instruction. We want you to sit

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Speaker 2: next to your child while she plays with the toy.

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Speaker 2: You know you're being recorded, you know you're in a

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Speaker 2: psychology lab. What do you think you're going to do

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Speaker 2: as you sit next to our daughter and she plays

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Speaker 2: with that toy.

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna want her to work out how to use

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Speaker 3: the toy the quickest way possible. Why Because I'm going

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Speaker 3: to think that they're trying to see whether or not

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Speaker 3: my child's mum enough to work it out.

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Speaker 2: I love how you're going. This is what I need

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Speaker 2: to do, because this is what they're they're they're assessing

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Speaker 2: my child, is my child a genius? And what Wendy

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Speaker 2: Gronick and her colleagues discovered was that a lot of

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Speaker 2: parents felt like that. What they were wondering what the

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Speaker 2: experimenter would think of them and what they would think

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Speaker 2: of the baby, and whether or not they should sit

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Speaker 2: passively and watch or whether they should be picking up

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Speaker 2: the pieces and showing the child how to get them

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Speaker 2: all into the toy.

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Speaker 3: And because chances are my child's the one who's going

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Speaker 3: to be sucking on.

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Speaker 2: The going over and try and say, just go on,

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Speaker 2: lick the window and forget that the toys even there.

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Speaker 2: And so the moms did react in a variety of

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Speaker 2: ways because so many of them really wanted to make

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Speaker 2: sure that the child was playing with the toy the

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Speaker 2: right way, and so they'd say, no, no, not there,

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Speaker 2: like this, do it that way. And so what was

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Speaker 2: really going on was Wendy Gronick and her colleagues were

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Speaker 2: assessing the extent to which parents were controlling or supportive

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Speaker 2: of the child's autonomy. Here's the critical thing. Once the

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Speaker 2: three minutes of videoing was done, they asked the mom

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Speaker 2: to just sit over to the side, and they gave

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Speaker 2: the child another toy to play with, and they observe

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Speaker 2: what the child did. And what they found was that

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Speaker 2: the degree to which you were controlling or autonomy supportive

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Speaker 2: had a huge impact on what your child did next.

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Speaker 2: The more you offered correction and direction, the more you

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Speaker 2: emphasized the right way to play with the toy, the

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Speaker 2: less your child was intrinsically motivated to keep on playing

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Speaker 2: with the unfamiliar toy, to discover it, to engage with it.

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Speaker 2: But the more autonomy supportive you were, that is, the

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Speaker 2: more you just let them discover it for themselves. And

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Speaker 2: you were there as a gentle guide on the side saying, oh,

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Speaker 2: look what you just did. I wonder what else it

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Speaker 2: can do. Why don't you show me that that autonomy

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Speaker 2: support Those kids played with the toys long, they found

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Speaker 2: more solutions, They explored the toys in novel ways. Now

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Speaker 2: that concept is essentially at the heart of what this

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Speaker 2: book is about. It's about how do we create ourselves

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Speaker 2: a parenting style that helps us to be involved with

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Speaker 2: our kids has appropriate structure because limits and boundaries do matter,

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Speaker 2: but ultimately supports our kids and their autonomous engagement with life.

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Speaker 2: And the research shows that these are the kids that

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Speaker 2: are the ones that do the best. They're the ones

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Speaker 2: with the highest well being, They're the ones that are

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Speaker 2: most likely to be resilient, They're the ones that have

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Speaker 2: the best relationships, do best at school, are interested in discovery.

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Speaker 2: Like anything that you can put together on a list

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Speaker 2: of how I want my kids to turn out, it's

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Speaker 2: the need supportive approach built on involvement and structure and autonomy,

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Speaker 2: support that leads to those outcomes.

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Speaker 3: Well, I know I haven't read the book, but the

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Speaker 3: conversation has definitely made me think that this is something

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Speaker 3: that I might need to put on the bookshelf right

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Speaker 3: next to my bed under a few other books that

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Speaker 3: I have already ready to read.

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Speaker 2: Do you know what, I'm so grateful that you actually

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Speaker 2: do want to read my book. It makes me feel good.

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Speaker 2: And I know you're not just saying that expert on

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Speaker 2: a podcast, you will read.

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Speaker 1: It, won't you.

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Speaker 2: I sure really need you better need to be.

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Speaker 3: On the same page. So can you remind me where

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Speaker 3: can I get it?

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Speaker 2: Everywhere?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 2: Just google it? The Parenting Revolution. If you go to

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Speaker 2: my website and click on the link there, it'll take

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Speaker 2: you through to book Topia. They'll have a discount or

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Speaker 2: something like that. You can get it on bookshelves in

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Speaker 2: all of your bookstores around the place. Fingers crossed, and

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Speaker 2: can I just put it in a little plug if

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Speaker 2: people have listened to me talking about the book for

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Speaker 2: this long, I just want to make one more quick mention.

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Speaker 2: The first week or two of a book's release are

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Speaker 2: the most important for a book's success, because the more

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Speaker 2: people who buy it in the first couple of weeks,

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Speaker 2: the more likely it is that bookstores will stock it

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Speaker 2: on their shelves and that it will be available, and

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Speaker 2: that there'll be a buzz about it. Like it's so

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Speaker 2: important that the bookstores that are online will put it

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Speaker 2: on the front pages of their homepage and that sort

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Speaker 2: of thing. So if you're interested in it, can I

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Speaker 2: please ask you, really blatantly to buy the book today tomorrow,

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Speaker 2: go and grab it as soon as you can, because

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Speaker 2: this is a book that will, if it doesn't start

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Speaker 2: a global or at least an Australia wide pairing revolution,

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Speaker 2: that can start a pairing revolution in your living room.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's the one that matters the most.

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Speaker 2: I think that's the one that I write the book for,

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Speaker 2: because you can change and undo all that trauma that's

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Speaker 2: been created through the centuries as parents have got it

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Speaker 2: so wrong. This is your chance to be the circuit breaker,

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Speaker 2: and I feel like the book is designed to help

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Speaker 2: parents to break that circuit.

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Speaker 3: Anyway.

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Speaker 2: We shouldn't stop, because I'm gonna get all weepy in

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Speaker 2: a second if I keep going. The Happy Families podcast

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Speaker 2: is produced by Justin rolland from Bridge Media, and Craig

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Speaker 2: Bruce is our executive producer. Thank you so much for listening,

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Speaker 2: so grateful. Please check out The Parenting Revolution. It's available

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Speaker 2: wherever you buy your books, and we'll be back tomorrow

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Speaker 2: with more on the Happy Families podcasting.