1
00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:04,160
Speaker 1: Jonesy and Amanda's.

2
00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:05,960
Speaker 2: Well last year presented itself with all sorts of challenges.

3
00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:08,920
Speaker 2: Imagine being a mother and a high school teacher at

4
00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:11,480
Speaker 2: the same time, a very tough combination. Our next guest

5
00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:14,280
Speaker 2: was just that and is just that, Daisy Turnbull. And

6
00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:18,079
Speaker 2: she's written a book about risk taking four children, and

7
00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:20,680
Speaker 2: it's very practical, and some of it looks like all

8
00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:22,000
Speaker 2: the stuff I wish i'd done.

9
00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,640
Speaker 1: Daisy, Hello, Hello, thank you for having me.

10
00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:27,520
Speaker 3: It's good to have you on. So, Daisy, just getting

11
00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:27,960
Speaker 3: this straight.

12
00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:32,159
Speaker 4: This isn't about taking up chainshaw juggling while riding a motorbike.

13
00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:34,760
Speaker 1: Is it. No, there's to have been no enriched uranium

14
00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:36,120
Speaker 1: in any of this, right.

15
00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:40,080
Speaker 2: So the kind of risk taking you're talking about are

16
00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:43,440
Speaker 2: things that I really balked at when my kids were little,

17
00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:46,879
Speaker 2: things like letting them make a mess, letting them do

18
00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:50,919
Speaker 2: things on their own, letting them argue, all that stuff.

19
00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:56,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I guess the thinking behind it was, there's

20
00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:59,680
Speaker 1: all this research and evidence around the benefits of resilience

21
00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:04,000
Speaker 1: for but there wasn't always the list of what kids

22
00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:06,560
Speaker 1: need to do to become resilient. So I kind of

23
00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,480
Speaker 1: tried to reverse it and say, here are fifty things

24
00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:11,240
Speaker 1: you can do with your kids, and this is why

25
00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:12,880
Speaker 1: it's a good idea psychologically.

26
00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:16,360
Speaker 2: I like the one where you say about getting them

27
00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,680
Speaker 2: to help you clean up or whatever. As you call it,

28
00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:22,200
Speaker 2: help not help, because it's awful when you're child small

29
00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:24,640
Speaker 2: and just is the opposite of helpful. But you have

30
00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:25,600
Speaker 2: to push through.

31
00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:28,600
Speaker 1: That you do. And that's actually one of my good

32
00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:32,440
Speaker 1: friend's lines helping not helping, and it's one that would

33
00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:35,560
Speaker 1: run around the mother's groups because they constantly think they're

34
00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,240
Speaker 1: helping when they're throwing tupperwar out of the drawer. But

35
00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:41,600
Speaker 1: now they know how to pack tupperwear away, which you

36
00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:43,160
Speaker 1: know is a real skill these days.

37
00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,400
Speaker 4: For me, I've got older kids, and I just sort

38
00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:49,760
Speaker 4: of think my generation now has become the snowplower generation.

39
00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:53,080
Speaker 3: So there was the helicopter parent, and now the snowplowers.

40
00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:57,120
Speaker 4: We clear our every possible thing obstacle that can get

41
00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:59,760
Speaker 4: in their way. And my thinking of it is it's

42
00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:02,520
Speaker 4: just easier for me to do it myself. So that's that'side.

43
00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:04,120
Speaker 3: My daughter's car. I look at my daughter's car and.

44
00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:06,320
Speaker 4: Go, well, that tire is flat, and if I put

45
00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:08,679
Speaker 4: air in the tire, then it's not going to break it,

46
00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:09,880
Speaker 4: and then I'm not going to be stuck with a

47
00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:10,400
Speaker 4: bigger bill.

48
00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:12,440
Speaker 3: How do I stop that? Do I just let the

49
00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:12,800
Speaker 3: tire go?

50
00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,040
Speaker 1: You know, you're absolutely right, You are absolutely right. It

51
00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:17,799
Speaker 1: is often far easier in the short term to do

52
00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:20,680
Speaker 1: the stuff for the kids, but then it means in

53
00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:22,480
Speaker 1: the long term they're going to be depending on you

54
00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:26,080
Speaker 1: more or even worse. She will be out, you know,

55
00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:28,840
Speaker 1: driving one evening and get a flat tire and have

56
00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:30,520
Speaker 1: no idea what to do, and you will have a

57
00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:32,280
Speaker 1: twenty five year old who doesn't know how to change

58
00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:32,680
Speaker 1: a tire.

59
00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:35,320
Speaker 2: Well, how about a fifty nine year old.

60
00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:39,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of that short long term thing. And

61
00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,799
Speaker 1: that's why as a teacher writing it, I talk about

62
00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:45,519
Speaker 1: what in teaching we refer to as backward matthing, where

63
00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:47,000
Speaker 1: kind of go, this is where you want the students

64
00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:48,840
Speaker 1: to be by the end of year twelve. So what

65
00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:49,959
Speaker 1: do you want them to be able to do in

66
00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:52,320
Speaker 1: year ten? And you're eight and you're seven, and so

67
00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:54,320
Speaker 1: we do think, you know, yeah, twelve year old should

68
00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:56,080
Speaker 1: be able to walk to and from school right or

69
00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,080
Speaker 1: get the bus, But then what are we doing with

70
00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:00,360
Speaker 1: them when they're nine or ten or lee and to

71
00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:01,360
Speaker 1: prepare them for that.

72
00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:04,680
Speaker 2: I also liked how you said that your son didn't

73
00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:06,840
Speaker 2: like chocolate as a young boy, so you go to

74
00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:09,679
Speaker 2: birthday parties and you take a little separate birthday cake

75
00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:11,160
Speaker 2: for him in case it was chocolate. And at the

76
00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:12,919
Speaker 2: end you thought, what am I doing? He has to

77
00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:16,080
Speaker 2: learn that unless it's his birthday, it doesn't go his

78
00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:16,960
Speaker 2: way necessarily.

79
00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:20,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, I think that's and I think, but you know,

80
00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:23,040
Speaker 1: it's funny. I started doing that because I saw another

81
00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:25,640
Speaker 1: mum doing it. And there's so much that happened in

82
00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,040
Speaker 1: modern parenting where you see other moms or other parents

83
00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:30,680
Speaker 1: doing things a certain way and you think, oh, well,

84
00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,200
Speaker 1: that's clearly the way it has to be done, and

85
00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:36,760
Speaker 1: it is. It's very comparative. You're constantly comparing yourself to

86
00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:38,840
Speaker 1: the parents around you, which is why this is so

87
00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:41,760
Speaker 1: important and tricky because no one wants to be the

88
00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:43,960
Speaker 1: first risky parent, because.

89
00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:45,880
Speaker 2: We all talk about the risky parent that lets the

90
00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:47,920
Speaker 2: kids do anything God.

91
00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:49,840
Speaker 1: And she lets her kids do any Yeah, and no

92
00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,080
Speaker 1: one wants to be that person. But actually that person's

93
00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,120
Speaker 1: probably going to have the kids that when they're in

94
00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:56,640
Speaker 1: high school can get themselves to school and make their

95
00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,440
Speaker 1: lunch and change a hire and iron their uniforms and

96
00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:01,760
Speaker 1: all of that. So in a way, the risky parent

97
00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:04,760
Speaker 1: is often the one who prepares the child for the road,

98
00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:06,120
Speaker 1: instead of the road for the child.

99
00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:07,320
Speaker 3: Because it's funny you say that.

100
00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,240
Speaker 4: I remember many years i'd ride a motorcycle, and so

101
00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:12,360
Speaker 4: there was a period there where I would drop my

102
00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:16,120
Speaker 4: kids one at a time on my eldest, for example,

103
00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:19,000
Speaker 4: on the way to work on my motorbike. And I

104
00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:20,960
Speaker 4: remember a parent said, oh, yeah, I can't believe you

105
00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:23,400
Speaker 4: let your son go on a motorbike. And I had

106
00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:26,359
Speaker 4: these moments of guilt, and then what I would do

107
00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:28,080
Speaker 4: is I'd drop him off down the road so no

108
00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:29,760
Speaker 4: other parents saw me doing it.

109
00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:31,520
Speaker 3: Then years later I went to pick him up from

110
00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:32,000
Speaker 3: high school.

111
00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:33,440
Speaker 4: I went to pick him up on the motorbike where

112
00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:35,159
Speaker 4: you'd think it was cool, and he comes out I

113
00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:36,120
Speaker 4: was taking to the orthodontos.

114
00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:37,680
Speaker 3: He goes, Dad, what are you doing? I said, what,

115
00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:39,800
Speaker 3: I guess that's so gay. Two guys on a motorbike

116
00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:42,200
Speaker 3: and around. What are you talking about? This is how

117
00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:44,280
Speaker 3: we get a ready to go down the road. You

118
00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:44,800
Speaker 3: can't win?

119
00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:49,719
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, look I think one of the things is

120
00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,679
Speaker 5: it is that you're more concerned about other parents' judgments

121
00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:56,760
Speaker 5: than you are about your own, whether or not it's

122
00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:58,240
Speaker 5: actually allowed, and you.

123
00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:00,440
Speaker 2: Have to separate those two thoughts. I also really like

124
00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:05,359
Speaker 2: what you said here about rebels is that we like

125
00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:07,479
Speaker 2: the notion of rebels. We just don't want them to

126
00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:09,599
Speaker 2: be our children or to live with them. But there's

127
00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:11,360
Speaker 2: two different types of rebels.

128
00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:12,239
Speaker 5: Yeah.

129
00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,880
Speaker 1: So that's doctor Justin Callson's theory of reflexive and reflective rebels,

130
00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,360
Speaker 1: and it's a really good one because it's that idea

131
00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:20,400
Speaker 1: of you know, yeah, you want them to be able to,

132
00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,560
Speaker 1: you know, push back and fight for justice and fairness,

133
00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,880
Speaker 1: but at the same time you want them to know

134
00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:29,480
Speaker 1: that they need to think for a second and reflect

135
00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:31,320
Speaker 1: on it, not just do it reflexively. And I think

136
00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:33,480
Speaker 1: in the playground you often see the reflexive rebel. And

137
00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:35,159
Speaker 1: you just got to hang up, just hold on a second.

138
00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:38,600
Speaker 1: We're in trouble because you've broken a school rule. I

139
00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,120
Speaker 1: know you think it's unfair, but let's just talk about

140
00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:43,600
Speaker 1: it like rather than you know, like giving kids they

141
00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:45,000
Speaker 1: need to find that space.

142
00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,800
Speaker 3: Well, this is great, Daisy, Thank you so much. For sure.

143
00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:52,280
Speaker 3: Fifty risks to take with your kids in all good

144
00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,800
Speaker 3: bookstores today. It's not about juggling chain saws. It's great stuff.

145
00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,680
Speaker 1: No sorry, no chain saws, no motorbikes.

146
00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:01,239
Speaker 3: So hi to Malcolm and Lucy.

147
00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:04,200
Speaker 1: Forrest will do, Thank you, Thank you, Daisy

148
00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:06,400
Speaker 5: Jonesy and Amanda's Gamnation