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Speaker 1: Joining me in the studio right now is Jerry Would,

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Speaker 1: who many of you will know.

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Speaker 2: He was a member of Parliament for how many years? Jerry,

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Speaker 2: I ask you this all the time. Nineteen nineteen years.

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Speaker 2: So I'll tell you what.

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Speaker 1: If anybody knows what's going on in Parliament, it's definitely you.

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Speaker 1: But Jerry, you have actually just come to us from

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Speaker 1: the service that was being held for Kim Parnell, who

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Speaker 1: many in the Northern Territory will know and respect, at

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Speaker 1: Saint Mary's Cathedral.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it was a very moving ceremony. The cathedral was packed.

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Speaker 3: There were people standing and you don't see that too often,

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Speaker 3: and that shows you. I think it's a reflection of

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Speaker 3: who Kim Parnell was. She was a police woman for

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Speaker 3: a time, but she was also involved in many other things.

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Speaker 3: And I think what you saw today was people coming

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Speaker 3: to pay homage, I suppose, and farewell to somebody that

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Speaker 3: was a great Territorian and simply that one of the

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Speaker 3: It was just a wonderful funeral and her husband gave

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Speaker 3: a beautiful eulogy. Yes, I think a lot of people

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Speaker 3: had tears in their eyes, but it was it was

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Speaker 3: it was good. It was a celebration of life and

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Speaker 3: that's what's important.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, An incredibly a sad time, no doubt for her family,

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Speaker 1: but a really you know, a wonderful Territorian who I

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Speaker 1: know that so many people will be, you know, sad

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Speaker 1: to farewell.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah. I think she was a good example for us.

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Speaker 3: You know, she was very a religious person, very spiritual,

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Speaker 3: but she showed how to live by example and I

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Speaker 3: think that's one of the things we all should strive for.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, Jerry.

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Speaker 1: It's never a dull moment in this studio, and never

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Speaker 1: a dull moment when Parliament is sitting, and we know

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Speaker 1: that last week there was over the last two weeks.

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Speaker 1: There's always plenty that goes on, but there was a

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Speaker 1: motion that was put by the independent member from malka Ynya,

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Speaker 1: Mark guy Ula. Now there was quite a few people

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Speaker 1: actually messaging us to the show last week saying is

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Speaker 1: this going to be a second voice? So we're going

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Speaker 1: to have two voices potentially in the Northern Territory, one

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Speaker 1: that we are all voting on federally. But then is

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Speaker 1: there something happening now in the Northern Territory which is

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Speaker 1: going to be an additional body that's going to be

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Speaker 1: sort of looking at legislation that impacts First Nations territorians. Now, Jerry,

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Speaker 1: what do you sort of of make of this, because

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Speaker 1: I think for a lot of us we're not one

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Speaker 1: hundred percent sure what it means. We want to speak

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Speaker 1: to somebody who's independent and a bit removed from us.

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Speaker 3: Well, go only read what's been in the news. So

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Speaker 3: my understanding is that mister Gouler is looking at establishing

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Speaker 3: a statute of your body to review the impact of

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Speaker 3: bills on First Nations people. Now, my concern is that

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Speaker 3: one is that the government over the last couple of

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Speaker 3: years developed what we call scrutiny committees, and that idea

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Speaker 3: was borrowed from Queensland Parliament because the Queensland Parliament only

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Speaker 3: has one house and the territory only has one house,

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Speaker 3: so they don't have upper houses, and upper houses are

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Speaker 3: design to scrutinize legislation before they're finally passed. So I

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Speaker 3: was a great supporter of scrutiny committees because they give

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Speaker 3: a chance for the community to look at legislation. And

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Speaker 3: if you look up under the scrutiny committees on the

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Speaker 3: on the website, you'll see how many bills that they

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Speaker 3: did look at in their time, and so that Scrutiny

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Speaker 3: Committee could travel anywhere in the Northern Territory and discuss

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Speaker 3: issues about It could be anything about that could affect

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Speaker 3: bus drivers, taxi drivers, could affect the transport industry, could

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Speaker 3: affect education, cover all those sorts of things. Now, I

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Speaker 3: don't believe you should have necessary have a body that

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Speaker 3: just looks at the effect on one group of people

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Speaker 3: in the territory.

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Speaker 4: We are all one.

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Speaker 3: If there is a piece of legislation that comes forward

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Speaker 3: that obviously, like I said, maybe bus drivers might affect

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Speaker 3: bus drivers, obviously the Scrutiny Committee would talk to the

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Speaker 3: bus drivers. They wouldn't not only exclusively talk to them,

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Speaker 3: because people would like to have a say as well,

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Speaker 3: but they would hone in on that group where they

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Speaker 3: may be affected and if it was an issue that

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Speaker 3: would affect Aboriginal people. Now give you an example. The

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Speaker 3: government tried to introduce some new legislation regards cemeteries a

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Speaker 3: few years ago and that was stopped because there were

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Speaker 3: concerns and mister gol He, I think, was one of

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Speaker 3: those who raised those concerns that just didn't fit in

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Speaker 3: with cultural practices of Aboriginal people in parts of the territory.

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Speaker 3: Pardon me, but if you look up the things that

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Speaker 3: a scrutiny committee were a cried to look at, one

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Speaker 3: of those was Aboriginal culture. So we had this process

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Speaker 3: where we had committees that the government scrapped which actually

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Speaker 3: opened up Parliament to the people, which is one of

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Speaker 3: their policies. Then they scrapped them and we haven't got anything.

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Speaker 3: So legislation that goes to Parliament now does not go

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Speaker 3: out to a committee which does not go out to

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Speaker 3: the community. So the community consider at meetings, they can

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Speaker 3: put their points of view in writing or actually ask

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Speaker 3: questions of those communities.

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Speaker 4: That committee can travel anywhere in the territory.

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Speaker 1: So, Jerry, this is across the board because you know,

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Speaker 1: I think more than ever before, Territorians are quite engaged

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Speaker 1: in legislation, and a lot of that is due to

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Speaker 1: the anti social and crime issues that we're seeing and

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Speaker 1: we're talking about bail legislation and things like that. But

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Speaker 1: so at this point in time, none of that's got

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Speaker 1: a scrutiny committee that's looking over any of us.

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Speaker 3: Well just take the pay online. I know people have

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Speaker 3: been pushing it now I'm not sure rushing it makes

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Speaker 3: any difference, because you know, hasn't made any difference at

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Speaker 3: the moment whatever they've done. But I know mister Gola

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Speaker 3: was concerned about it now, so other people are concerned

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Speaker 3: about it. So the Scrutiny Committee would bring in people

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Speaker 3: who were dealing with diversionary programs, were dealing that. You

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Speaker 3: might get judicial people come in. You might be able

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Speaker 3: to take it out to Nulmboy or some of whatever

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Speaker 3: aboriginal communities, but you also had it open for people

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Speaker 3: who come to day on an old springs or anywhere

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Speaker 3: in the territory. You would like to be part of

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Speaker 3: that discussion. So they would put it out there and eventually,

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Speaker 3: when they've got everything together, they would put recommendations back

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Speaker 3: to the government to say, look, we think the bill

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Speaker 3: needs to be amended, and I've said it in the Parliament.

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Speaker 3: When the chair of that committee would then give a

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Speaker 3: report recommending that certain recommendations be put to the government

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Speaker 3: so that the bill would be changed.

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Speaker 4: Now, sometimes the government didn't take any notice.

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Speaker 1: I was going to say, I'm sure that sometimes they'd

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Speaker 1: turn a blind eye.

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Speaker 3: But the voice wouldn't make any difference. A local voice

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Speaker 3: wouldn't make an difference because the government is not going

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Speaker 3: to be told that we'll have to do what a

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Speaker 3: particular group says. Now I'm not saying they shouldn't listen,

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Speaker 3: and would be wise perhaps to do some of what

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Speaker 3: they said. But in the end, the government is elected

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Speaker 3: by all the people and they are the final arbiters

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Speaker 3: of what whether legislation passes through. But a statutory but

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Speaker 3: a scrutiny committee, as we had.

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Speaker 4: For me, were a breath of fresh air. You had

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Speaker 4: a social.

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Speaker 3: Committee and you had an economic committee, so you could

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Speaker 3: look at all lots of things.

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Speaker 1: So did they get introduced when you know, when the

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Speaker 1: COLP only had two members in oor position or when

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Speaker 1: did they get introduced?

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Speaker 3: They came in when Adam Joles of course that his

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Speaker 3: reign had been finished, so they were introduced sometimes, I

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Speaker 3: think during that period, and for memory, there may have

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Speaker 3: been I think there was.

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Speaker 4: I was on one of those committees and COALP on

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Speaker 4: the other.

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Speaker 3: I can't remember the makeup exactly at that stage, but

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Speaker 3: in the end there was great support by the Labor

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Speaker 3: Party for the scrutiny committees, and they're the ones that

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Speaker 3: scrapped them after saying these are fantastic having their members

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Speaker 3: saying they're fantastic going to Queensland. I went to Queensland too.

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Speaker 3: We watched how they operated and saw how they're working

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Speaker 3: in Queensland and they're still going in Queensland. But we

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Speaker 3: scraped them all together. And to me, that's a backward step.

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Speaker 3: When you're talking about a government that said we are

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Speaker 3: about bringing Parliament to the people, we are about being

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Speaker 3: open and transparent. It doesn't matter if you agree or

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Speaker 3: disagree that little core thing is most important for people.

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Speaker 3: Even if they're say is not supported, they've had a

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Speaker 3: chance to have their say.

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Speaker 1: So Jerry, in your opinion, like, you're not against what's

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Speaker 1: the Member for Maulks doing here, it's more a matter

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Speaker 1: of you actually think that the government needs to look

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Speaker 1: at the reintroduction of these scrutiny committees so that Territorians,

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Speaker 1: every day, Territorians, no matter where you come from, no

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Speaker 1: matter what your background is, that you are being hurt

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Speaker 1: all legislation.

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Speaker 3: If we're having a scrutiny, equity should be available for

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Speaker 3: all people, regardless of race, regardless of their position, their jobs, whatever,

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Speaker 3: they should be allowed to have a say in the legislation.

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Speaker 3: That's been put through Parliament, and this is one way

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Speaker 3: to do it. Obviously, if there's legislation that's really important

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Speaker 3: to Aboriginal people, it could be to do with the

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Speaker 3: Pastoral Act for instance, and the effect on people as

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Speaker 3: livelihoods or something just that just maybe a fairly wild example,

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Speaker 3: but you would expect that the parstoralist would be concerned

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Speaker 3: about it or want to be part of that discussion,

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Speaker 3: and expect the Aboriginal people that won't have.

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Speaker 4: A say in it.

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Speaker 3: So I just think you don't want a piece of

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Speaker 3: a committee that sort of aims at a particular group

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Speaker 3: of people. If it needs to focus on a group

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Speaker 3: of people, that's fine, but not to set it up

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Speaker 3: to just look at one group of people. What I've

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Speaker 3: said is bring back the Scrutiny Committee. And if the

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Speaker 3: government really thinks that they that there's a merit in

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Speaker 3: what mister Golaer said, and I think this merit will

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Speaker 3: make him the chair, the independent chair of a scrutiny committee.

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Speaker 3: Now I've never known this government to accept when we

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Speaker 3: had the Council of Territory Cooperation because they end up

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Speaker 3: being the chair. But there are reasons for that, of course,

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Speaker 3: But they've never been a great fan of having someone

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Speaker 3: who's not in government as the chair, and to me,

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Speaker 3: that would show that they do support the concept that

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Speaker 3: doctor mister Goiler is saying. But they're leaving it open

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Speaker 3: for him to be the chair of a broad committee

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Speaker 3: which would, if needed, discuss with Aboriginal people legislation that

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Speaker 3: could affect them. But it's not just specializing in that

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Speaker 3: it's open for everyone to have a say.

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Speaker 1: Jerry, not having those scrutiny committees anymore, what do you

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Speaker 1: think that that means for democracy in the Northern Territory.

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Speaker 3: It's taken it down, really down a number of notches.

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Speaker 3: I think for the territory. It's been one of the

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Speaker 3: saddest decisions made by the government. We had something that

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Speaker 3: really allowed people to have a say, even if, as

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Speaker 3: I said, even if in the end that they didn't

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Speaker 3: get approved by the government, but they had a chance

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Speaker 3: to have a say, to listen about the legislation, to

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Speaker 3: hear what experts had to say on legislation. And yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's an example. You know, there's been taxi legislation goes

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Speaker 3: through and I was on a committee when we interviewed

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Speaker 3: taxi drivers in all the springs. We interviewed them in

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Speaker 3: Darwin and we heard from different points of view and

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Speaker 3: in the end legislation went through Parliament. Now, not everybody

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Speaker 3: was probably satisfied with that legislation, but the taxi drivers

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Speaker 3: had to say. Other people had the opportunity to have

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Speaker 3: a say. You didn't just say only your taxi drivers. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: but it might have been passengers would like to have

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Speaker 3: a say. It might have been the general population who

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Speaker 3: were interested in these things could have a say. So

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Speaker 3: to me, it was a breath of fresh air when

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Speaker 3: we brought it in and that fresh air got stuffed

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Speaker 3: out when the government changed it.

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Speaker 1: Jerry, someone's just messaged through asking can you explain to

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Speaker 1: the Northern Territory or can you explain the Northern Territory

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Speaker 1: Voice to Parliament that both sides of government have agreed

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Speaker 1: to like the proposed National Voice to Parliament.

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Speaker 2: There's no detail.

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Speaker 1: Well, look, that's what we've just been talking about. So

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Speaker 1: it's the motion that's been put to Parliament and it

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Speaker 1: is that I'm just having a look at it now

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Speaker 1: that an inquiry should consider, but not be limited to

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Speaker 1: the preferred body to conduct a review, such as a

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Speaker 1: statutory body composed of First Nation's territorians or an assembly

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Speaker 1: committee advised to First Nation territorians, and a requirement for

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Speaker 1: a statement of compatibility against prescribed measures of self determination.

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Speaker 2: That will indicate the degree to which the.

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Speaker 1: Bill, and it goes through a whole raft of different things,

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Speaker 1: but essentially a legal and constitutional affairs committee.

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Speaker 3: Well that's how the Scrutiny Committee first started. They had

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Speaker 3: a committee to look at it and then they went

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Speaker 3: to Queensland and from that committee they developed it. Well

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Speaker 3: why can't you use the existing system? Why can't you

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Speaker 3: put if you look under as I said on the website,

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Speaker 3: look under scrutiny committees the military, you'll see what their

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Speaker 3: responsibilities are. We can't read them all out now there's

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Speaker 3: quite a few. If you needed to add something in there,

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Speaker 3: add something in there my onwly you know, and don't

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Speaker 3: wait till twenty twenty four. Well bring it back now,

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Speaker 3: you know.

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Speaker 1: But it doesn't need to just be on issues impacting

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Speaker 1: Aboriginal territories, but issues impacting right across the board.

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Speaker 4: Is I guess what is that and what's wrong with that?

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Speaker 3: It's not to say you won't deal with Aboriginal people,

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Speaker 3: but my understanding is that I was just trying to

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Speaker 3: find the bit that whereas woke about it. But the

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Speaker 3: Scrutiny Committee is one of the things they had to

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Speaker 3: look at was have sufficient regard, amongst other things, to

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Speaker 3: the rights and liberties of individuals that's all individuals, black

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Speaker 3: or white. So you just you know, manipulate, if that's

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Speaker 3: the right word, what the process will be according to

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Speaker 3: what the what the legislation is. So the legislation is

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Speaker 3: about things that will affect Aboriginal people. Of course the

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Speaker 3: Scrutiny Committee, well make sure Aboriginal people get to say

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Speaker 3: get to say. I just think we're doubling up on

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Speaker 3: bureaucracy here and we're not using what we've already got.

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Speaker 3: And if we do it well like we was before,

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Speaker 3: I think we'd be a happier place. To some extent,

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Speaker 3: I see this as slightly divisive. You're not going to

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Speaker 3: have another group of people who's going to look at

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Speaker 3: you know, we've got a fairly big Greek population in

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Speaker 3: the territory. Well, you know, should we have times that

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Speaker 3: we have a little committee that just specific to worrying

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Speaker 3: about their issues, you know. So I just think we

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Speaker 3: need to bring people together, We need to work together,

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Speaker 3: and there are ways of dealing with what mister Goyle

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Speaker 3: has said which are important. There's no doubt about it

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Speaker 3: that Aboriginal people need to be involved. I'll just give

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Speaker 3: you a funny example if it can. And this is

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Speaker 3: what worries me about the big voice. They're saying, well,

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Speaker 3: you know, the Aboriginal people will be able to sort

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Speaker 3: of advise the government.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 3: People now today call Aboriginal people first nations. I asked

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Speaker 3: my wife, who's an Aboriginal person. She's a Wadregan woman

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Speaker 3: from down near the Channel Point. That's where she was born.

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Speaker 3: She won't have a bar of First Nation. She doesn't

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Speaker 3: even know who said she should be called First Nations.

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Speaker 3: Somebody in Canberra, some group, probably some academic group with

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Speaker 3: all leanings all over the place. They've decided that the

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Speaker 3: government policy will call Aboriginal people. We won't even call

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Speaker 3: them indigenous, we'll call them First Nations. So the football

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Speaker 3: around AFL was First Nations. Last time was Indigenous. But

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Speaker 3: my wife says, know, I want to be called an

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Speaker 3: Aboriginal Wadigan woman, and she's very proud to be that.

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Speaker 4: She doesn't what but no one asked her?

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Speaker 1: Well, and This is the that's the whole concern that

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Speaker 1: people of God, isn't it. Who exactly is the voice

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Speaker 1: going to represent it? Is it going to represent people

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Speaker 1: that are in you know, that are living here in

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Speaker 1: the Northern Territory and all around you know, then you

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Speaker 1: go even further remote in the territory.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, my wife is in the rural

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Speaker 3: area of how it's been. We know a fair bit

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Speaker 3: about what's going on. But if you I always say

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Speaker 3: so is the lady sitting under a mango tree at

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Speaker 3: what I does she know anything about this?

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Speaker 1: Well, this is the whole discussion that still needs to happen,

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Speaker 1: doesn't it.

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Speaker 3: My sister in laws then they live in town and

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Speaker 3: they live out bush there too. They don't know what

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Speaker 3: to do, they don't understand it.

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Speaker 1: And this is where you know, there does need to

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Speaker 1: be so much more discussion, I think, and particularly for

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Speaker 1: those that do live in remote communities and that are

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Speaker 1: you know, indigenous in those various communities, knowing what it's

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Speaker 1: going to do, how it's going to work.

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Speaker 2: And for all of us Aussie no matter where you.

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Speaker 3: Are, especially the sad thing when you're having a referendum,

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Speaker 3: how much say, do we really have in the territory

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Speaker 3: and that's what worries me. A were you going to

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Speaker 3: be told by other places in Australia that this is

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Speaker 3: what you will have when some I know that some

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Speaker 3: people are they're not necessary against it, they just don't

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Speaker 3: understand it.

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Speaker 4: That's right, and that's the problem I have.

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Speaker 3: And I just gave you that example because to me,

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Speaker 3: she doesn't like to be called the first time.

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Speaker 2: I think it's a good example.

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Speaker 1: It's you know, it's something that a lot of people

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Speaker 1: will listen and think, Oh I didn't realize.

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Speaker 4: That she could.

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Speaker 3: She did probably live with first people, but she doesn't.

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Speaker 3: She wants to be called an Aboriginal Watchgan woman and

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Speaker 3: that's who she is through and through.

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Speaker 2: Well, Jerry would it is always good to catch up

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Speaker 2: with you.

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Speaker 1: I always appreciate your background, particularly when you talk about

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Speaker 1: what's going on in parliament. Thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: coming in and having a chat to me today.

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Speaker 4: Thanks Cudy. I try and listen a bit when I'm guarding.

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Speaker 1: I know it.

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Speaker 2: I like it when you text through we give you

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Speaker 2: a shout out sometimes us Good on you, Jerry, Thank

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Speaker 2: you