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Speaker 1: It is looking as though sort of anybody who is

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Speaker 1: coming into contact with, you know, with anybody from the

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Speaker 1: public is indeed going to need to be vaccinated, and

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Speaker 1: that includes our school teachers. And joining me on the

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Speaker 1: line right now is the branch president of the Northern

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Speaker 1: Territory Education Union, Javis Ryan. Good morning to you, Javis.

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Speaker 2: Good to be with you, Katie.

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Speaker 1: Now, jervis, what was the reaction to the announcement yesterday

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Speaker 1: about the mandate for the vaccination.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'd have to say that the reactions been fairly muted.

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Speaker 2: We had wind of this coming obviously a month ago

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Speaker 2: when the Chief Minister announced the sort of broad outlines

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Speaker 2: of the roadmap, and since that time we have had

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Speaker 2: a fairly steady stream of queries from our members. We know,

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Speaker 2: some of whom are what would say, very resistant to

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Speaker 2: being vaccinated, some of whom have concerned that we might say,

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Speaker 2: are more of a transient nature, and that we've got

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Speaker 2: pregnant members and people in that sort of category who

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Speaker 2: still have questions. It just so happened as well we

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Speaker 2: had we'd done a survey at that time and we've

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Speaker 2: got a fairly good response rate and that showed broadly.

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Speaker 2: I think, broadly speaking, in Tata's majority support for the

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Speaker 2: direction the government's gone in not just on mandatory vaccinations

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Speaker 2: but a range of other measures. But there is a

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Speaker 2: significant minority of people who are either not supportive of

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Speaker 2: the vaccination or not supportive of the mandatory element that's

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Speaker 2: now been announced. As you've seen, you know, just theness

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Speaker 2: is a divisive issue where people hold very polarized opinions.

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Speaker 1: And Javis, I mean, you guys surveyed six hundred and

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Speaker 1: forty school staff across both urban and remote areas of

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Speaker 1: the Northern Territory. I believe that there is about seventy

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Speaker 1: percent of staff said that they're already fully vaccinated. But

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Speaker 1: what percentage of that either don't want to get the

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Speaker 1: job or not willing or you know, hesitant at this point?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so the figures we had were about seventeen percent

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Speaker 2: saying they weren't vaccinated and didn't intend to be. Now,

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Speaker 2: I think I would sort of speculate that the survey

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Speaker 2: may have skewed a little bit towards people who felt

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Speaker 2: more strongly on that issue. But let's say even that

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Speaker 2: numbers high, we're still talking about that a you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe it's ten percent we don't know the final number.

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Speaker 2: And of course the other thing is that this question

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Speaker 2: was asked, you know, in the abstract really at the time,

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Speaker 2: do you want to be vaccinated? Yes or no? Now

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Speaker 2: the question is do you want to be vaccinated yes

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Speaker 2: or no? With the no meaning that your employment's in

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Speaker 2: jeopardy if you don't comply within the next month. So

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Speaker 2: that certainly changes the equation for people.

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Speaker 1: Have you had many calls to your office, you know,

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Speaker 1: since that announcement was made yesterday from Star who are

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Speaker 1: concerned about their employment and the potential of a five

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Speaker 1: thousand dollar fine.

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Speaker 2: We have, not just yes since yesterday, but prior to

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Speaker 2: that as well. We're not talking large numbers of people,

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Speaker 2: but we'll be talking some dozens, and I guess they're

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Speaker 2: wanting to understand what are the implications if they don't comply.

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Speaker 2: We don't have any answers on those things yet. I mean,

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Speaker 2: one thing I'd point out is that the government has

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Speaker 2: not consulted with unions once and the formation of development

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Speaker 2: of these orders. This is an incredibly broad mandat, as

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Speaker 2: you've just alluded to in your introduction. I think it's

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Speaker 2: reasonable to sue this mandate effectively applies to every person

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Speaker 2: working in the Northern territory. It's so broad. So our concern,

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Speaker 2: I suppose, is that I'll just stick with education, and

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Speaker 2: I've sort of gone out to a few principles this morning.

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Speaker 2: Particularly in remote areas where we know that vaccination rates

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Speaker 2: are very low. That extends to the hundreds of Indigenous

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Speaker 2: staff employed either directly or indirectly by the Education department.

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Speaker 2: So in some of the larger remote schools, we've got

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Speaker 2: only a handful, you know, maybe less than a quarter

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Speaker 2: of those indigenous staff who are vaccinated. So we're really

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Speaker 2: now looking at the situation where in a month's time, Principles,

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Speaker 2: I presume will have to be the one giving them

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Speaker 2: the bad news, saying if you've not complied, you're no

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Speaker 2: longer able to work here. So what content I guess

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Speaker 2: is that the government hasn't won the persuasion debate in

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Speaker 2: many of those communities. We can speculate as to why.

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Speaker 2: But to now follow that up with get vaccinated within

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Speaker 2: a month or you're out of work, is that really

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Speaker 2: going to improve the situation in those communities by laying

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Speaker 2: people off? Is it going to improve the situation in

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Speaker 2: terms of trust between government and communities, And I just

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Speaker 2: question whether they really thought through some of those implications

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Speaker 2: in developing such a sweeping mandate and such a short

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Speaker 2: time frame for its implementation.

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Speaker 1: Well, Javis, in some of those remote communities as well,

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Speaker 1: what kind of impact would that actually have on those

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Speaker 1: schools if you were to see some of those staff

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Speaker 1: members no longer able to work.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's a really good point, Katie, because teaching staff,

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Speaker 2: by and large, we can go out of state and

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Speaker 2: try and recruit teachers from elsewhere, but local staff, people

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Speaker 2: who speak the local language and are being trained up

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Speaker 2: as assistant teachers and so on, people working in those

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Speaker 2: support roles. You can only replace those people generally from

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Speaker 2: within those communities. And if we stay at these very

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Speaker 2: low levels of vaccination rates in those communities, then there's

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Speaker 2: no one really to step up potentially, And I guess

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Speaker 2: it's sort of maybe solving one problem, or attempting to

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Speaker 2: address one problem about protecting vulnerable people, and in so

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Speaker 2: doing you create another problem of a whole lot of

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Speaker 2: people no longer having an income. What flows from that?

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Speaker 2: And I just I guess one thing I'd be caution

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Speaker 2: is to say, look, can we can we look at

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Speaker 2: a longer implementation phase. For example, can we try and

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Speaker 2: understand One of the questions I've put to these principles

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Speaker 2: is do you think there'll be a there'll be a

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Speaker 2: surge in vaccinations now that this matter has gotten serious?

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Speaker 2: And I suspect among a lot of the teachers now

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Speaker 2: that okay, they want to stand on their principles, but

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Speaker 2: now it's put up or shut up time. I do

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Speaker 2: expect we'll see a lot of people will be booking

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Speaker 2: in very quickly, and ultimately that those numbers of people

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Speaker 2: who don't agree to be vaccinated will probably be very low.

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Speaker 2: But it's hard to say. I mean, America is a

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Speaker 2: very different sort of place that people may have seen.

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Speaker 2: You've had like huge numbers of nurses, teachers, etc. Just

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Speaker 2: not agreeing, and they've had to become a source of

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Speaker 2: great social division there. And I hope we don't go.

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Speaker 1: That well our same here, like I really hope we

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Speaker 1: don't get to that point, Javis. One of the other

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Speaker 1: things that you and I have discussed at different times

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Speaker 1: over the last few weeks as well is, you know,

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Speaker 1: the need for a bit more certainty over the Christmas

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Speaker 1: period for teaching staff, and that certainty in terms of quarantining.

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Speaker 1: It does seem as though at this point in time

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Speaker 1: the Chief Minister has flagged it on the Show with

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Speaker 1: Us on Monday, also yesterday during that press conference that

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Speaker 1: by the end of November, early December at the latest,

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Speaker 1: when we reach the eighty percent vaccination rate, it is

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Speaker 1: going to mean that people will be able to quarantine

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Speaker 1: from home. Do you think that's going to make much

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Speaker 1: of a difference for some of the teaching staff who

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Speaker 1: are maybe actually you know, living here for a couple

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Speaker 1: of years, teaching in the territory, but their families still

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Speaker 1: into state and are wanting to get home for a

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Speaker 1: bit of a breakover Christmas. Do you think it's going

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Speaker 1: to make much of a difference at can quarantine from

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Speaker 1: home or do you think we could wind up in

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Speaker 1: a situation where some people go home for Christmas and

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Speaker 1: don't come back.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's certainly a bit of that happening. There's fatigue.

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Speaker 2: It's heartening to hear that, but I think the Chief

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Speaker 2: Minister has recognized we can't continue with these arrangements, so

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Speaker 2: home quarantine is a good middle ground. I think he

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Speaker 2: was indicating about shorter periods of quarantine. I think as

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Speaker 2: well is really welcome. One of the areas we're wanting

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Speaker 2: to discuss further with government would be, you know, home

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Speaker 2: quarantine can probably work for people who live in Darwen

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Speaker 2: and our springs. How would it work for, say, people

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Speaker 2: who live in Catherine. How does it work for people

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Speaker 2: who live remote? Probably not appropriate to get off a

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Speaker 2: plane from Sydney Melbourne and drive out to you and

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Speaker 2: a midical millennia. So can we look at what the

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Speaker 2: arrangements might be for people, say remote teaching stuff, for

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Speaker 2: whom it's neither feasible nor desirable to do home quarantine?

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Speaker 2: You know, certainly have we shortened that quarantine period? You know,

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Speaker 2: bear in mind a lot of parts of the world

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Speaker 2: now you can turn up to an airport, present a

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Speaker 2: negative test and get off in another country. We're still

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Speaker 2: a long way from those sorts of arrangements. So I

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Speaker 2: just hope that there's more good news to come on

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Speaker 2: that front in months to come, because I do think

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Speaker 2: that certainly if people can go to Victoria and go

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Speaker 2: to New South Wales placed like this over Christmas, who

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Speaker 2: knows where Queensland will be, but have confidence they can

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Speaker 2: come back with maybe some quarantine arrangements but not the

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Speaker 2: full fourteen day. How it springs that will make a

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Speaker 2: big difference for the better.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, Jarvis Ryan, the Northern Territory president of the

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Speaker 1: Education Union, we really appreciate your time this morning. Thanks

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Speaker 1: so much for having a chat with us.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, good on you much. Thank you,