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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Family's Podcast with me doctor Justin Colson,

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Speaker 1: the podcast for the time poor.

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Speaker 2: Parent who just once answers.

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Speaker 1: Now, I'm a dad to six daughters and the author

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Speaker 1: of six parenting books, and today something a little different.

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Speaker 2: I'm having a.

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Speaker 1: Brief conversation with somebody who's done a study that I

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Speaker 1: think you're going to be fascinated by. I'm speaking with

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Speaker 1: doctor Catherine Medecki from the Menzies Health Institute of Queensland

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Speaker 1: at the School of Applied Psychology at Griffith University. And

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Speaker 1: you know that topic that I mean, it gets under

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Speaker 1: people's skin. You're in the park with your kids, you

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Speaker 1: see a parent on the phone, or you're in the

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Speaker 1: shopping center, or you're in a restaurant and parents are

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Speaker 1: on their phone rather than paying attention to their children. Well,

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Speaker 1: it was only a matter of time and we finally

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Speaker 1: got some pretty good research looking at how that affects

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Speaker 1: children and whether it's a good thing or a bad thing.

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Speaker 1: And Catherine so appreciate you having a chat with me

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Speaker 1: just now. I'd love for you to tell me a

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Speaker 1: bit about this research, what inspired it, and what you

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Speaker 1: did in your study to discover whether this is a

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Speaker 1: problem or whether we're hyperventilating about not so much.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely so. This actually began as a partnership with.

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Speaker 4: The ABC for a National Science Week. This is response

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Speaker 4: from parents across Australia. These are more than three thy

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Speaker 4: five hundred responses and parents reported on their different ways

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Speaker 4: of using their smartphone, the amount of time they were

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Speaker 4: using their smartphones and texting and using social network sites.

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Speaker 4: They also reported on conflicts in the family around the parents'

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Speaker 4: smartphone use and displacing time with the phone. Excuse me

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Speaker 4: to stay lacing time with the family due to their phones,

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Speaker 4: as well as the parent child relationships.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because that's one of the big things, isn't it, Catherine.

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Speaker 1: You know people will say, and I've certainly been one

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Speaker 1: who said it, one of the biggest challenges we have

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Speaker 1: with our smartphone use is not that there's anything necessarily

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Speaker 1: wrong with using the smartphone, it's what it's.

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Speaker 2: Actually interfering with or displacing.

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Speaker 1: If I'm staring at my phone, I'm not engaging with

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Speaker 1: my child exactly.

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Speaker 4: And in a lot of ways a smartphone has come,

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Speaker 4: i would argue, to sort of represent something beyond what

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Speaker 4: it's actually doing. So you know, it sort of represents

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Speaker 4: the attention sometimes maybe we're not getting or that you know,

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Speaker 4: closest we're not necessarily feeling, but absolutely, and it's really

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Speaker 4: you know, there's been a lot in the media in

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Speaker 4: particular and certain scholars sort of arguing that the smartphone

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Speaker 4: is problem, problem, problem, But as a parent, you know

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Speaker 4: that it also allows us to get our work done.

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Speaker 3: It allows us to.

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Speaker 4: Find support, find information, so it's it's not just one thing.

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Speaker 4: And so the goal here was sort of to say, well, well,

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Speaker 4: if this is a problem, we have the type of

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Speaker 4: data that will absolutely find it. So we have this

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Speaker 4: huge sample, we have the measures that are being used

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Speaker 4: in studies. Let's take an exploratory approach, being open to

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Speaker 4: the possibility that this might not be a problem, that

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Speaker 4: this might be okay. And so we started with over

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Speaker 4: a thousand ways of looking at these data, these different variables,

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Speaker 4: and we soon decided, as you're saying, that really the

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Speaker 4: story here is about, you know, whether or not the

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Speaker 4: smartphone time is displacing with my family or causing conflicts

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Speaker 4: with my family. But what was surprising is overall the

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Speaker 4: pattern really was a positive relation, meaning more time across

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Speaker 4: twelve different measures of smartphone use was associated with better

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Speaker 4: quality parent child relationship self reported by parents, as long

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Speaker 4: as there wasn't heaps of displacement of time with family.

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Speaker 4: So as long as this is not becoming a huge

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Speaker 4: source of avoidance of your family or a huge source

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Speaker 4: of conflict in the family, more time, if anything, is

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Speaker 4: associated with better relationships, certainly not worse.

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Speaker 1: Now, this is really curious to me. When I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: about the central aspects of what makes relationships in the

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Speaker 1: family work, I think, well, something that I say all

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Speaker 1: the time is that, just like Dola's of the currency

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Speaker 1: of our economy, connection is the currency of our relationship.

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Speaker 1: And to me, it seems that a smartphone is going

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Speaker 1: to interfere with connection. I might be in the middle

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Speaker 1: of a conversation with my wife one of my kids

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Speaker 1: of the phone rings, I get it, you know, there's

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Speaker 1: a text message come through. I just remember that I've

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Speaker 1: got to respond to that email, and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: my attention diverts from that beloved family member to that

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Speaker 1: phone that I can pick up and cradle and caress

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Speaker 1: and touch and get a different kind of feedback from

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Speaker 1: very very quickly, you know, and I get to be

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Speaker 1: efficient and productive and do all those things. Now, surely

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Speaker 1: that's going to be well, your research is suggesting no,

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Speaker 1: But I would have thought that's going to interfere with

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Speaker 1: my relationship.

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Speaker 3: Well, let's talk about it.

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Speaker 4: So interference with your relationship is different than smartphone use.

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Speaker 4: And so one of the issues is that in the literature,

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Speaker 4: you know, the title will say smartphone use is associated

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Speaker 4: with you know, problems, but if you look at what's

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Speaker 4: being measured, it's that disruption which.

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Speaker 3: You're talking about. So two things.

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Speaker 4: First of all, there's different ways to be using your phone.

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Speaker 4: So you can be texting or on a phone call.

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Speaker 3: And you can still have eye contact.

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Speaker 4: You can still be sort of giving that attention if

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Speaker 4: your child's on the sports field or on the playground,

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Speaker 4: while still dealing with other things that would normally take

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Speaker 4: you physically away from child. So we did find a

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Speaker 4: difference in terms of immersive forms. So if you're just

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Speaker 4: scrolling social network sites and very very immersed the effect

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Speaker 4: is not as positive when compared to, for instance.

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Speaker 3: Phone calls. So that's one.

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Speaker 4: But two, I think you know, parents are in this

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Speaker 4: position where they're dealing with norms, right, so they we're

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Speaker 4: with our child, but the outside world also expects our

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Speaker 4: ready attention, and so it's sort of navigating that. It's

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Speaker 4: sort of choosing your time, I would say, in terms

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Speaker 4: of when your child needs you. But I'm also going

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Speaker 4: to counter with the fact that exactly a warm and

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Speaker 4: supportive parent child relationship give good communication with your child

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Speaker 4: and a parent not bringing stress over into the parent

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Speaker 4: child relationship. And there are ways that smartphones can actually

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Speaker 4: support that, right, So I can reach out to family,

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Speaker 4: I can find information, I can sort of help myself

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Speaker 4: cope in other ways. I can physically be with my

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Speaker 4: child rather than being at work. But it's also, as

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Speaker 4: you say, it's navigating, right, and so sorry, if it's

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Speaker 4: an emergency call, you know, I'm telling my kids this

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Speaker 4: is only going to be a minute.

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Speaker 3: It's only work, and then I will come back.

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Speaker 4: So it's navigating. I would argue those norms. But again,

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Speaker 4: this finding also is when we're keeping that displacement from

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Speaker 4: key time with your family at a lower level.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So I'm really curious about how there is that

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Speaker 1: positive relationship between warmth and smartphone usage, so long as

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Speaker 1: it's not interference. Okay, so interference seems to be the key.

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Speaker 1: Would if I'm doing something and I'm the duration of

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Speaker 1: the call is lengthy, and I'm being interrupted, and it's

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Speaker 1: getting in the way of my relationship. That doesn't have

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Speaker 1: any redeeming value of quality at all. But generally, if

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Speaker 1: I'm using my phone more, I can still be warm

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Speaker 1: to my child. And I'd love for you to just

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Speaker 1: explain how that might work in a practical sense.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Well, first of all, let me step back and say

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Speaker 4: these are cross sectional data.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, it's coming one hand.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And so at one hand, this was speaking to

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Speaker 4: arguments that really were sort of geting under my grilling,

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Speaker 4: my onion, so to speak, this idea that sort of

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Speaker 4: phones are to blame, which of course suggests if we

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Speaker 4: just took away the phones, everyone will be a better parent,

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Speaker 4: which of course we know is not the case. So

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Speaker 4: on one hand, I'm not saying that if everyone gets

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Speaker 4: a phone or uses their phone worse somehow.

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Speaker 3: They're going to be a warmer parent by any means.

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Speaker 4: But I think the reality is we use our phones

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Speaker 4: for a variety in a variety of ways across the day.

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Speaker 4: It's embedded in our lives, and to the extent that

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Speaker 4: we're sort of negotiating that effectively in our family system.

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Speaker 4: It's certainly not taking away from the relationship, if that

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Speaker 4: makes sense. I would also say, in terms of we

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Speaker 4: know that, for instance, moderate amounts of online coping, So

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Speaker 4: using the phone to get information for short term distraction,

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Speaker 4: to bring you down when you're stressed, for reaching out

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Speaker 4: for support, we know in other research that that can

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Speaker 4: be really effective for coping with stressors. So on one hand,

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Speaker 4: I suspect having that connection is helping me be a

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Speaker 4: better parent. I think also these parents are also probably

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Speaker 4: navigating very well or better than others in terms of

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Speaker 4: that family dynamic that Okay, when I need to be

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Speaker 4: on the phone, you know it's not speaking and not

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Speaker 4: wanting to spend time with you.

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Speaker 3: I need to do this and then I'm back with you.

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Speaker 3: If that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like what the study is doing is giving

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Speaker 1: credit to parents for being able to be selective around

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Speaker 1: when they're using their devices and when they're not. So

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Speaker 1: you use the example before, if your child's on the

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Speaker 1: sport field, you don't have to pay attention to the

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Speaker 1: cricket game for the next four hours. You can just

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Speaker 1: look up every now and again and clap your hands

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Speaker 1: and say well done, well bold, and then get back

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Speaker 1: to your emails or the book that you're reading. Like

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Speaker 1: you said, it's not just smartphone technology. If we got

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Speaker 1: rid of the smartphones, parents would still be reading books,

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Speaker 1: they'd still be watching television, they'd still be distracted with

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Speaker 1: any number of other things. The other thing that I

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Speaker 1: was going to say is just this idea of it

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Speaker 1: being cross sectional or correlational research.

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Speaker 2: So there's a correlation between warmth and smartphone use.

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Speaker 1: That is, it could be argued that parents who are

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Speaker 1: using their smartphones more tend to be warmer, But it

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Speaker 1: could also be that warmer parents tend to use their

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Speaker 1: smartphone more. In other words, if you're the kind of

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Speaker 1: person who is social and amenable and nurturing in relationships offline,

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Speaker 1: you're probably going to be doing that online as well,

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Speaker 1: not just with your family, but with your friends and

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Speaker 1: with that social network that exists inside the device.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a good point as long as the displacement

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Speaker 4: is low. So actually, if we just look at time

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Speaker 4: with parenting, surprisingly we found almost no relationship, which is

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Speaker 4: interesting because that's not sort of what you know, we've

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Speaker 4: taken as law that you know, straight smartphone use was

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Speaker 4: associated with problems in the family but you're absolutely correct.

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Speaker 3: You could interpret that two ways.

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Speaker 1: So when you look at this study and sort of

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Speaker 1: pull out the real take homes, what encouragement would you

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Speaker 1: give to parents when it comes to the choices that

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Speaker 1: they're making around having devices active and usable at the

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Speaker 1: same time that family members might be around.

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Speaker 4: Well, first of all, you know this is something we're

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Speaker 4: all dealing with, and I'm sure you say this to

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Speaker 4: parents as well, that I don't think guilt and parenting

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Speaker 4: go together very well at all.

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Speaker 3: I think it's counterproductive.

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Speaker 4: The reality is smartphones are in our day to day life, right,

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Speaker 4: and so letting ourselves off the hook about you know,

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Speaker 4: what it's about is as you would be saying to

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Speaker 4: parents as well, it's about warm relationships. It's strong communication.

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Speaker 4: It's reducing the stress spillover with kids. It's being available

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Speaker 4: at times that are ultimately you know.

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Speaker 3: Necessary to be there.

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Speaker 4: So it's making smart choices, but also taking care of

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Speaker 4: yourself as a parent and communicating with your kids and

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Speaker 4: you know, partners those around you why you're on the

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Speaker 4: phone when you're on the phone, and making it clear

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Speaker 4: that it's not due to sort of not being interested

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Speaker 4: in your child, and making it clear you are available

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Speaker 4: at key times.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, great, I love that.

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Speaker 1: So just to summarize, make sure that I didn't miss anything.

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Speaker 1: There are sometimes where you really want to make sure

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Speaker 1: that you're available and get the phone out of the

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Speaker 1: environment so you can connect and can concentrate. Sometimes is

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Speaker 1: simply more important than others. But secondly, make sure that

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Speaker 1: you utilidging you devices in a way that is restorative

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Speaker 1: and regenerative for you so that when you put the

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Speaker 1: device down, you can actually be at your bists for

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Speaker 1: the people that you love the most. Absolutely well, Kathy,

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Speaker 1: this has been a delightful conversation. Thanks so much for

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Speaker 1: telling us about your brand new study. If people wanted

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Speaker 1: to find out more about the work that you're doing,

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Speaker 1: where would you send.

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Speaker 4: Them www dot Modernlife study dot com. And actually we

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Speaker 4: are now in phase two of a follow up study

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Speaker 4: trying to tap people's experiences, particularly in Australia during the

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Speaker 4: COVID nineteen because of course now we more than ever

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Speaker 4: we're juggling family work and we're finding the role of

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Speaker 4: technology playing all sorts of different roles. So I suggest

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Speaker 4: folks look at the website you can see some of

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Speaker 4: our findings and also register for you're interested in participating

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Speaker 4: in phase two www dot Modernlife study dot com.

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Speaker 1: Well that's great, Thank you very much, doctor Catherine MEDICKI.

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Speaker 1: We will put those details for the study and the

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Speaker 1: website into our show notes, and I'll also pop them

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Speaker 1: on my Facebook page into my newsletters so everyone can

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Speaker 1: find out about it.

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Speaker 2: It's been great chatting with you.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, thanks so much.

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Speaker 1: Well, I hope that's helpful from doctor Catherine Medecki. If

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Speaker 1: you've enjoyed the podcast, would you do something for me?

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Speaker 1: Can you jump into iTunes on the Apple Podcasts app.

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Speaker 2: And leave a rating and a review. It's the ratings and.

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Speaker 1: Reviews that help people to find out how the podcast

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Speaker 1: is and help people to make their families happy.

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Speaker 2: I was so grateful. In the last couple of weeks,

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Speaker 2: there's been a whole lot of really lovely reviews.

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Speaker 1: Come through, including one that came from Snelly Tribe which

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Speaker 1: says so worthless and this is a five star review.

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Speaker 2: I love these podcasts. Although my tribe are old in.

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Speaker 1: Our twenty eighteen, seventeen, and fifteen, I'm still getting so

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Speaker 2: They are relevant even with adult children. Thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: Just wish I had these to guide us when they

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Speaker 1: were small. Really appreciated that. And also another one that

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Speaker 1: came from Emily, a learning support educator, who said, always

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Speaker 1: love to listen to your podcast. Such great advice and

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Speaker 1: I always implemented in my personal and work life.

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Speaker 2: Thank you well, Thank you Emily for that.

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Speaker 1: Zag zog CCV was the five star review that came

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Speaker 1: through there, so.

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Speaker 2: Thank you very much for those reviews.

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Speaker 1: For more information on how I can help your family flourish,

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