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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, the number one thing that I tell parents is

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Speaker 2: to start thinking about screens holistically.

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Speaker 3: So what I mean by that is stop trying.

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Speaker 2: To differentiate between you know, them doing social media, them doing.

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Speaker 1: YouTube and now here's the stars of our show, my

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Speaker 1: mum and dad.

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Speaker 4: Hello, this is doctor Justin Colson. I'm on my own today,

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Speaker 4: but well not quiet. Kylie's not joining me. But I

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Speaker 4: do have somebody that I think is just knowledgeable when

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Speaker 4: it comes to screens and our kids, particularly specifically boys

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Speaker 4: and gaming. I'm speaking with Brad Marshall today on the

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Speaker 4: Happy Families podcast. Brad is known as the Unplugged Psychologist,

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Speaker 4: written a couple of books and working in private practice

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Speaker 4: in Sydney. I'm guessing at the moment, Brad, it would

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Speaker 4: be pretty hard for people to get their kids to

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Speaker 4: see you. There'd be a lot of parents who are

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Speaker 4: concerned about their kids and the way they're interacting with screens.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, being the start of a school year,

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Speaker 2: there's always a lot of trouble getting kids off screens

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Speaker 2: and back to school.

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Speaker 3: So the wait list is pretty specifically.

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Speaker 2: Long for the clinic at the moment, but hopefully we

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Speaker 2: can get some information out to parents via podcasts and

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Speaker 2: other means like this.

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Speaker 3: That's great, great to be here.

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Speaker 4: So Brad, describe for people who are perhaps not familiar

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Speaker 4: with what you would do as a psychologist in relation

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Speaker 4: to kids screens.

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Speaker 5: And I'm going to use the word addiction.

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Speaker 4: You can say what you want about that, but just

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Speaker 4: that's the way that parents are referring to it, kids screens, addictions,

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Speaker 4: that sort of stuff.

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Speaker 5: What is the work that you do specifically, Yeah, so.

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Speaker 2: I mean for a little over the last ten years,

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Speaker 2: I have a clinic, the Internet Addiction Clinic kids Space,

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Speaker 2: and he's going to be renamed the Internet Gaming Disorder

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Speaker 2: Clinic quite soon, as you reference there.

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Speaker 3: Some people don't like the addiction term, but anyway, if

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Speaker 3: we just sort of moved past that.

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Speaker 2: So what I do on the day to day is

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Speaker 2: I see kids and families, mostly boys, but some girls

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Speaker 2: as well, that are struggling with screens, gaming, media, YouTube,

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Speaker 2: whatever you want to call it. And sometimes they've got

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Speaker 2: other things going on as well in the mental health sphere,

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Speaker 2: so depression, ADHD.

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Speaker 3: Anxiety, but not always.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, I see those children teenagers and their families,

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Speaker 2: and I help them calm things down and get back

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Speaker 2: to some level of normal again.

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Speaker 4: So I'm excited to talk to you about all these

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Speaker 4: things today for a couple of reasons. First of all,

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Speaker 4: it's a topic that parents cannot wrap their heads around

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Speaker 4: and get enough information about. It's one of those things

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Speaker 4: that I'm endlessly asked about, and obviously with the work

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Speaker 4: that you do, you are as well. But additionally, in

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Speaker 4: just over a month, on April six, you and I

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Speaker 4: are going to be joining forces with a whole lot

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Speaker 4: of other experts in issues related to boys for the

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Speaker 4: Happy Families Bringing Up Boys Summit, and as a special

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Speaker 4: guest on the summit, I thought it would be great

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Speaker 4: to bring you into the podcast and give people a

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Speaker 4: taste of what you're offering, because the summit is going

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Speaker 4: to be an extended version of this with a whole

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Speaker 4: lot of great information about boys and screens, boys and emotions,

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Speaker 4: boys and friends, boys and sex, boys and you name it.

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Speaker 4: We're talking about everything boy related, and you are our

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Speaker 4: boys and gaming guy. So for our conversation today, I

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Speaker 4: actually want to start off by being a bit provocative,

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Speaker 4: which is gosh. I was going to say that's unlike me,

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Speaker 4: but that was sarcasm intended. I tend to be a

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Speaker 4: little bit of a I like to poke the bear.

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Speaker 4: There's a brand new research paper that's been published just

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Speaker 4: in the last few months. It comes from the Oxford

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Speaker 4: Internet Institute at the University of Oxford, highly prestigious university,

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Speaker 4: prestigious group of researchers, and the headline of the article says,

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Speaker 4: and I quote, time spent playing video games is unlikely

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Speaker 4: to impact well being. And I thought, who better to

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Speaker 4: talk to about this than Brad Marshall, the unplugged psychologist,

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Speaker 4: the guy who spends his days working with kids whose

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Speaker 4: well being is arguably being impacted quite strenuously because of

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Speaker 4: their time spent playing video games, at least that's the

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Speaker 4: perception of their parents. I've sent the article to you,

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Speaker 4: and I thought we could just talk about it for

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Speaker 4: a bit and pick it a little bit and talk

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Speaker 4: about why this is such a confusing and challenging issue

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Speaker 4: for parents. When the research is saying one thing and

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Speaker 4: parents are experiencing another, and then there's researchers over here

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Speaker 4: that are supporting the parents and some.

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Speaker 5: Who are arguing with them. What did you think when

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Speaker 5: you read this article.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look, it's really interesting, and I do agree with you.

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Speaker 2: It's very difficult for parents to decipher this stuff. You know,

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Speaker 2: even parents that may be academic themselves. It's a bit

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Speaker 2: of a mind field because you have to really understand

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Speaker 2: what they're looking at and what they're reporting and whether

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Speaker 2: it's a sound study or not. And you know, I've

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Speaker 2: said to you on previous occasions justin I'm a pretty

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Speaker 2: terrible academic. I'm doing a PhD in treatment of gaming

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Speaker 2: at the moment, but I wouldn't sort of describe myself

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Speaker 2: as a research or an academic. But I think my

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Speaker 2: first impressions of this article were, I mean, there's some

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Speaker 2: classic stuff there that people who have done research before

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Speaker 2: would understand is not ideal. And this is not to

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Speaker 2: say that we should just ignore the whole paper, but

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Speaker 2: there are some things in there, like the paper wasn't

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Speaker 2: pre registered, the study itself wasn't pretty registered.

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Speaker 3: So for parents at.

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Speaker 2: Home, what that means is, you know, you're not really

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Speaker 2: that they haven't independently logged on and talked about what

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Speaker 2: they're trying to achieve in this paper. And the reason

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Speaker 2: that's a problem is that it doesn't really constitute gold

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Speaker 2: standard practice because it means that some people, and I'm

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Speaker 2: not suggesting these authors have, but some people can then

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Speaker 2: go on a bit of a phishing expedition and kind

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Speaker 2: of find what they want to find, if you will,

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Speaker 2: in the data. But if we just push past some

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Speaker 2: of those sorts of design limitations and the fact that

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Speaker 2: there is no qualification of limitations, and the fact that

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Speaker 2: it's not actually published, I mean it's in review, so

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Speaker 2: it is not being peer reviewed yet, so it looks

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Speaker 2: like a paper that you should very much listen to.

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Speaker 2: The biggest part of this though, that has me concerned

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Speaker 2: is that you know, parents would hear other experts say,

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Speaker 2: oh see, look, don't worry about it. There's no problem

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Speaker 2: with gaming for your kids. Look at this study here,

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Speaker 2: it's done by Oxford. But again the devil is in

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Speaker 2: the detail, right. The average age of the people that

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Speaker 2: participants in this study are thirty four, and they do

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Speaker 2: not take into account kids. And we know that in

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Speaker 2: Australia gaming mostly impacts kids, and so the precipice of

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Speaker 2: that of gaming and gaming issues in Australia is sixteen.

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Speaker 2: So they haven't really looked at the cohort that are

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Speaker 2: most impacted. And then, of course there is the massive

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Speaker 2: elephant in the room here with this one, in that

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Speaker 2: they have gotten their data for this study via the

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Speaker 2: gaming industry.

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Speaker 4: Right after the break, we're going to give three tips

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Speaker 4: for what parents can do if they feel like their

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Speaker 4: kids are on those screens, particularly gaming a little bit

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Speaker 4: too much.

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Speaker 1: It's their Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 5: For a happier family, try a Happy Families membership, because

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Speaker 5: a happy family doesn't just happen. Details at happy families

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Speaker 5: dot com dot au.

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Speaker 4: It's the Happy Families Podcast, the podcast for the type

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Speaker 4: or parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 5: My name is doctor Justin Colsil.

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Speaker 4: I'm hanging out with the soon to be doctor but

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Speaker 4: currently the Unplugged psychologist Brad Marshall.

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Speaker 5: And Brad has written a couple of.

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Speaker 4: Books about Internet and gaming disorder and kids and screens

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Speaker 4: and all those sorts of things, which we will link

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Speaker 4: to in the show notes.

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Speaker 5: Brad, let's talk practical stuff.

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Speaker 4: We've geeked out a bit on the science and probably

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Speaker 4: lost three quarters of our listeners because of that, But

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Speaker 4: I think we've got to talk practical stuff, right. What

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Speaker 4: would you say is the number one thing the most

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Speaker 4: helpful thing that you've seen in your clinical practice that

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Speaker 4: makes a difference, that really moves the needle for parents

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Speaker 4: who are struggling with kids who are using their screens

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Speaker 4: in ways that let's call it unhealthy, using their screens

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Speaker 4: in unhealthy ways.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Look, the number one thing that I tell parents is

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Speaker 2: to start thinking about screens holistically. So what I mean

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Speaker 2: by that is stop trying to differentiate between you know,

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Speaker 2: them doing social media, them doing YouTube, them doing Netflix

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Speaker 2: and streaming, them doing gaming. So many parents go, oh, look,

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Speaker 2: but I'm a rock star parent. I limit my child

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Speaker 2: to two hours a day of gaming, you know, But

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Speaker 2: then you look at it and it's well, they've got

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Speaker 2: six hours of YouTube all that's eight hours a day.

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Speaker 2: And so the first thing for parents is is don't

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Speaker 2: worry too much about what they're actually doing. I mean,

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Speaker 2: within reason, you don't want them sort of doing illegal

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Speaker 2: things or unsafe things. But for the most part, try

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Speaker 2: not to get into the micromanaging of exactly what's going on.

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Speaker 2: But it's an overall amount of time online that can

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Speaker 2: impact their well being. So that's the number one tip there.

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Speaker 4: I'm going to just jump in, Brad, because it gets

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Speaker 4: confusing for parents as well, because they'll be like, Okay, well,

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Speaker 4: I'm trying to minimize the amount of time they're on

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Speaker 4: a screen so that they can do all the other

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Speaker 4: things in life that matter, like be with their friends

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Speaker 4: and be active and be involved in sports or hobbies

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Speaker 4: or other activities. But now with I mean, you look

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Speaker 4: at what the last couple of years with COVID has done.

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Speaker 4: They're supposed to be online so they can do all

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Speaker 4: of their school work, and they tell me that they're

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Speaker 4: doing the school work, but then when I walk into

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Speaker 4: the room, they're on YouTube or they're playing Minecraft, and

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Speaker 4: I tell them they've only got an hour, but they've

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Speaker 4: now used forty five minutes and they've been gaming, and

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Speaker 4: I say, well, I still need another hour because I've

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Speaker 4: got to do my homework. And the parents are kind

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Speaker 4: of up about that. So that there's a boundaries issue,

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Speaker 4: isn't there There's a I mean, you want the kids

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Speaker 4: to have a certain amount of screen time and then

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Speaker 4: and then close it down, except there's so much of

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Speaker 4: their life that is now on there, and that whole

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Speaker 4: what kind versus how much issue right raises ahead.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, look, and that's a very good debate

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Speaker 2: and there is actually a bit of research around you know,

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Speaker 2: the quality if you will, so something educational versus something

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Speaker 2: that's sort of not educational or recreational. But the problem

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Speaker 2: is that for parents you have to be like a

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Speaker 2: proper hacker to understand what's going on. You know, you

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Speaker 2: can get sold these software applications, but it becomes very

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Speaker 2: difficult and kids find their way around them, so that

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Speaker 2: ends up as a bit of a minefield. You know.

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Speaker 2: My first step in the tech diet for your child

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Speaker 2: and team my parenting book The Unplug Step number one

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Speaker 2: is to control the Wi Fi and that's a holistic

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Speaker 2: approach around. If you control the Wi Fi and there

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Speaker 2: is a sad amount of hours that they're on per day,

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Speaker 2: then that's giving them some autonomy overlook. You know, you've

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Speaker 2: got two hours or three hours or whatever it is

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Speaker 2: that you agree with them, and essentially you are very

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Speaker 2: much steering them towards doing their homeworking that time, and

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Speaker 2: if not, the teachers are going to tell you. But

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Speaker 2: you can't micro manage that because it ends up in

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Speaker 2: a bit of a war in your house if you're

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Speaker 2: trying to overlook them on the screen twenty four to

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Speaker 2: seven and kids, you know, have many ways around that

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Speaker 2: as well.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and that's it. It turns into a power struggle,

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Speaker 5: doesn't it.

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Speaker 4: I wonder what's the most common complaint that you have

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Speaker 4: from parents when they bring their kids to see you?

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Speaker 4: The number one thing, And I know you're dealing primarily

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Speaker 4: with the clinical population, but even so a lot of

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Speaker 4: parents will relate.

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Speaker 5: I'm sure.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean, look, so I'm going to be difficulty and

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Speaker 2: not give you one. I'll give you two. So it's sleep,

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Speaker 2: especially for teenagers. And the second one is especially primary

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Speaker 2: school kids spending money, just not being able to really

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Speaker 2: understand all the micro transactions and I've got my card

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Speaker 2: linked to something and i can't understand why they keep

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Speaker 2: clicking on it, you know. And it's kind of like

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Speaker 2: you going to some resort in Fiji, you know, and

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Speaker 2: having a tab there and then wondering why your kids

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Speaker 2: are ordering room service and all the rest of it.

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Speaker 2: Like it's just funny money to them, right, They don't understand,

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Speaker 2: and so they're going to run your tab up and

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Speaker 2: deal with it later.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, yeah, We've got the Pokemon Go for our

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Speaker 4: seven year old. She just loves playing Pokemon Go. She

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Speaker 4: loves trying to capture an Evy or a Pikachu or whatever,

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Speaker 4: and we were unavailable for her one evening and we

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Speaker 4: told her big sister, eighteen years old. We said, hey, Ella,

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Speaker 4: download Pokemon Go and just take her for a walk

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Speaker 4: for an hour. Go and catch a coup couple of Pokemon.

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Speaker 4: And what that will do is that will give us

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Speaker 4: the time that we need to get the stuff done

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Speaker 4: that we're doing. We just need a bit of space.

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Speaker 4: Please go and do that. So Ella download a Pokemon

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Speaker 4: Go and then headed the phone over to Emily and

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Speaker 4: she spent fifty bucks in five minutes playing Pokemon Go.

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Speaker 5: She just started downloading stuff.

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Speaker 4: And Ella kind of came to us and was like, Dad,

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Speaker 4: my bank account's just been drained with Pokemon Go. So

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Speaker 4: we got to have that conversation then. But we I mean,

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Speaker 4: we polease it differently as adults. But Ella wasn't watching.

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Speaker 4: She was she's eighteen. She just let it go for it.

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Speaker 4: But it's not just the spending money on games. I'd

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Speaker 4: imagine that you'd see a lot of kids who are

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Speaker 4: gambling online.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I mean that's mainly the teenagers, but it's

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Speaker 2: been getting younger and younger and you know, I think

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Speaker 2: for some kids it is sort of premeditated, but for

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Speaker 2: a lot of kids it's not.

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Speaker 3: They just get sucked into it.

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Speaker 2: But it's very common for parents to come to me

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Speaker 2: and say, you know, there's a couple of thousand dollars

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Speaker 2: worth of chargers on there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I think the record in my clinic is seventy.

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Speaker 2: Thousand, but yeah, yeah, and there's been plenty of kids

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Speaker 2: in the tens of thousands as well. That's a little

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Speaker 2: bit more premeditated than by accident. But anyway, but yeah,

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Speaker 2: and the sleep one that I mentioned before, for a

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Speaker 2: lot of families there, you know, waking up and seeing

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Speaker 2: that your child's waken up at five AM or has

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Speaker 2: been up in the middle of the night mining or grinding.

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Speaker 3: As they call it. So it can get really tricky,

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Speaker 3: and you can see how that can impact on well being.

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Speaker 2: You know, they go to school really tired and they're

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Speaker 2: pretty ratty with their behavior.

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Speaker 3: Then so it has a snowball and that.

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Speaker 5: Kind of brings us full circle. We need to wrap

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Speaker 5: it up.

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Speaker 4: But if we come full circle to this study from

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Speaker 4: the Oxford Internet Institute, well being may not have been

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Speaker 4: markedly impacted. In a study of thousands and thousands of

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Speaker 4: mainly adults who are involved in gaming, with data coming

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Speaker 4: from the gaming industry. But what you and I both

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Speaker 4: see as parents saying, but my kids are driving me crazy.

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Speaker 4: It's affecting my well being and it is affecting their

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Speaker 4: well being, and we need to be able to be

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Speaker 4: helpful around that. So, what a great conversation for people

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Speaker 4: who would like to know more because we've barely scratched

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Speaker 4: the surface. Whether it's boys and the explicit content that

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Speaker 4: they're finding online, whether it's boys and then NonStop gaming,

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Speaker 4: or the fact that they're staying up and playing on

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Speaker 4: their screens all night, or being sneaky or deceitful or devious,

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Speaker 4: or whether they're gambling or any of those sorts of things.

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Speaker 4: The Bringing Up Boys Summit presented by Happy Families. It's

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Speaker 4: on April sixth. Keep a lookout on the Happy Famili's

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Speaker 4: Facebook page. We'll have a whole lot more information about

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Speaker 4: that soon. Brad, what a great conversation. If people want

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Speaker 4: to find out more about you and the work that

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Speaker 4: you're doing as the Unplugged Psychologist, where would we send them?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, just jump on.

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Speaker 2: My website Unplugged Psychologist dot com do a you and

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Speaker 2: you'll be able to find everything there or you know,

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Speaker 2: the usual social media stuff as well. Ironically, that's where

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Speaker 2: parents land sometimes. Otherwise I'll see you at the summit.

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Speaker 5: I just realized what you said. That is so funny.

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Speaker 4: You've got to go online to find the guy that

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Speaker 4: helps people with their online problems.

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Speaker 2: That's the already is not lost on me, Justin. But

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Speaker 2: that's where parents are, so you've got to go where

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Speaker 2: they are.

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Speaker 5: Right, brilliant stuff.

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Speaker 4: The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Rulan from

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Speaker 4: Bridge Media.

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Speaker 5: Craig Bruce is our executive producer. And if you'd like

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Speaker 4: More info about how to make your family happier, especially

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Speaker 4: the Bringing Up Boys Summit presented by Happy Families April six,

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Speaker 4: you can get all the info you need at Happy

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Speaker 4: families dot com dot a you